skip to main |
skip to sidebar
Like every organism on these planet the homo sapiens is a result of evolution. We may be inclined to think only of his physical appearance, but of course the brain is not exempt from this evolution.The central nervous system has been the tool in evolution that made us survive in changing environments. Through the millennia it developed two strategies: the capacity for both logical analysis and intuitive reasoning, but one is slow and ponderous while the other is fast and furious.The idea is that the intuitive part of the mind developed earlier in evolution than the rational part. It makes sense. The brain is wired to see order and structures, so that we can interpret our experiences and decide how to act on them.Maybe some individuals weren't satisfied with such interpretations and stared to wonder, if there could be other explanations for the phenomena. This might have been the beginning of the evolution of the rational part of the mind.What crosses my mind here is, that in the jungles of the Amazone there still may live undiscovered tribes. They are still hunters and live in a way their prehistoric answers might have lived.Do they live in a world, where their supersense has prevailed over the rational part of the brain. Does it indicate how the evolution of the brain is influenced by environment?How about us? We have our intuitive thinking, to believe there are things out there, where the rational part of the mind says: you are mistaken. Yet we are inclined to believe in psychological essentialism, vitalism, holism.We are inclined to an intuitive dualism and the idea that the mind can exist independently of the body. All of these ways of thinking are both naturally emerging and yet supernatural in their explanations of the world.Can we ever get rid of the supersense? Will the evolution of mankind continue and make us evolve into a species that uses logic over and above emotion and intuition?This seems unlikely and there are some reasons why. In the first place I have said from the beginning that our brain is wired to generate our rationality but also our supersense.This inclination to hold supernatural beliefs is part of our make-up and it seemingly served us well through evolution, otherwise we wouldn't be here.There is another reason. Our intuitive thinking makes it possible to hold certain values as sacred. It tells us that there are things we should not question. Something is sacred when members of society regard it as beyond any monetary value.A situation: a hospital with debts. The managing director gets one million dollars. He has a choice: spend the money on an urgent transplant operation that will save the life of a child or reduce the hospital's debts, which would guarantee the future of the hospital. What would you do? Most people would say: of course …save the child. And other questionable questionable things: would you love to posses and wear the clothes of a serial killer, or add the meat hooks to your collection of memorabilia, by which the Nazis have hung their victims.I think that you can regard value ethics as an expression of this conviction, which we share with others in our society and which binds us.On the other hand when our rational part of the mind would be our only (social) tool everything would be reduced to a cost-benefit analysis. It is material, analytic, scientific. Everything only would have its price.Some people in our society tend to believe so. How much do I have to pay you for sleeping with your wife? Some of you may frown, others might feel a moral outrage.Yet I see here a parallel with Jeremy Benthem's attempt to calculate measures of happiness. Utilitarianism as the cost-benefit analysis of moral values.My conclusion is, that our supersense is deeply embedded in our thinking and ironically makes it possible for us to regard certain supernatural beliefs as rational. And this holds society together.On the other hand it means that we can have access to the mechanisms of the brain that generate our supersense ideas, which may help us understand their irrationality and function in human life.By understanding the functioning of the brain more and more we also may understand better and better how to deal with the meaning of the supernatural in human psychology and even with fundamental philosophical questions about the self, identity and consciousness.For now, the brain and neurological findings are our next station.The discussion[13:25] herman Bergson: Thank you...[13:26] herman Bergson: You have the floor ^_^[13:26] Simargl Talaj: People living in hunter-gatherer subsistence mode are not more intuitive, less rational. They're rational, with different data.[13:26] Simargl Talaj: I reject also that purely rational life would be amoral. Logic proceeds from premise, actions from objectives. If my premise/objective is harmlessness, I am rational and ethical.[13:26] Alarice Beaumont: i would like to join your conclusion of the embedding in our thinking :-)[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes Simargl your first remark is right.[13:27] Simargl Talaj: hunter-gatherers tell us nothing about brain evolution because they are not primitive.[13:27] herman Bergson: what I only wanted to bring to your attention is the contingency of the development of the mind[13:27] Simargl Talaj: They tell us only about culture in relation to environment.[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: so, as rational humans we recognize that the collective as large as it has gorwn cannot hold together, so we invent a paste to secure it[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle...that seems to be the man function of our supersense[13:29] herman Bergson: the hunter-gatherers have certainly the same evolution of the brain as we have...[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: an artificail state of affairs for a portion's benefit[13:30] herman Bergson: but their environment didn't probably provoke rationality to survive....I dont know[13:30] Simargl Talaj: Indeed hunter gatherer life requires more rationality than urban life.[13:30] herman Bergson: What is interesting is that science and technology developed in Europe mainly...[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: I suspect the brainstem is fixed and our cerebral cortex only attempts to keep it in check[13:31] herman Bergson: The chinese culture shows a lot of scientific insights long before the European ones developed...[13:32] Simargl Talaj: as did the Arabs[13:32] Simargl Talaj: no culture keeps the lead at all times[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: and that our cerebral evolution is self-determined[13:32] herman Bergson: There never was a Chinese or arabic Newton or Copernicus for instance[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: there are many conflicts in this situation i think[13:32] herman Bergson: It is not about the lead Simargl[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: perhaps perception is part of the answer[13:33] herman Bergson: It is about the effect on global development of the species...[13:33] Simargl Talaj: to be rational and to be learned are two different things. Science requires not only rationality but texts, precedents, giant shoulders to stand upon.[13:33] herman Bergson: So the history of science is an interesting source of information...[13:34] Simargl Talaj: There is no evidence of European brains having any greater rational faculty than those of desert aborigines. Science is an effect of history, not evolution.[13:34] herman Bergson: That is not the point Simargl....[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ah[13:34] Alarice Beaumont: hmmm[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: i think it is cultural also[13:34] herman Bergson: What this is about is the relation between evolution of the brain and environment[13:35] herman Bergson: the relation between environment and the development of culture[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: the math that europeans used came from the east[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...that is SOOO remarkable…[13:35] herman Bergson: Our logic comes from india[13:35] Alarice Beaumont: yes Gemma,, isn't that fascinating?![13:35] herman Bergson: our math comes from arabic scientists in the 10th century[13:36] Simargl Talaj: Herman, so are you asking "Is it possible to dispense with supersense, cuz its intuitive basis is maybe not needed now?"[13:36] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes[13:36] Bejiita Imako: like Algebra and such[13:36] herman Bergson: Then you misunderstood Simargl...[13:36] Bejiita Imako: and the numbers we use are arabic symbols[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: seems the Europeans were good at reaping other culture's evolutionary progress[13:36] herman Bergson: I said it is part and parcel of our brain /mind[13:37] herman Bergson: Dawkins would love to discard of supersense I guess[13:37] herman Bergson: I think that is a mistake....[13:37] herman Bergson: It would mean to deactivate about 50% of our brain I guess[13:38] herman Bergson: Besides as Aristotle also noted....it works as a social paste...[13:38] herman Bergson: We NEED values to control our social behavior[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: that is not a good picture in my eyes[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: social paste[13:38] Simargl Talaj: I reject that values can only emerge from the antirational.[13:38] herman Bergson: social glue..Aristotle used paste[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: some of us apply oil to keep the paste from adhering[13:39] herman Bergson: That Simargl was the idea of the utilitarians too.[13:39] Simargl Talaj: To the conttrary I believe evil emerges chiefly from the antirational.[13:39] herman Bergson: antirational????[13:39] Simargl Talaj: witch hunts illustrate this[13:39] Simargl Talaj: that which is believed in spite of and against rational examination[13:40] Simargl Talaj: and rejects the validity of rational examination[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: there is always a benefit to someone in every atrosity[13:40] herman Bergson: that is our definition more or less of supersense, yes[13:41] herman Bergson: The cost-benefit analysis is what the rationality comes up with to establish values[13:41] herman Bergson: What do we win - what do we loose...[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: how much did the church benefit from the crusades, how much are we paying for it today?[13:42] Simargl Talaj: If you properly assess benefit and cost, this is moral. If my sense of "cost" includes your pain.[13:42] herman Bergson: and the matter is, that we value certain things that cant be expressed in terms of money[13:43] herman Bergson: As I said before...study Jeremy Benthem and John Stuart Mill on this approach of ethics[13:43] Simargl Talaj: It is irrational to assess such things in terms of money. So that failure is not a failure of the rational.[13:44] Simargl Talaj: it is a failure to be rational.[13:45] herman Bergson: I guess that is a rational conclusion Simargl :-)[13:45] Bejiita Imako: aaa trye[13:45] Bejiita Imako: true[13:46] Bejiita Imako: not all value can be expressed in money[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...thank you all for your particiaption.....[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: money is a very rational motive[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: Thanks, Professor[13:46] Bejiita Imako: what is a human worth for example[13:46] herman Bergson: We'll move on to the next stage of our quest about the brain/mind[13:46] Bejiita Imako: a life cant be measured in money[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: yet it is[13:47] AristotleVon Doobie: or at least in trade for it[13:47] Simargl Talaj: in fact we measure our own lives in money when we decide to take a risk because avoiding it would be too expensive.[13:47] herman Bergson: Exactly bejiita[13:47] AristotleVon Doobie: money equals survival[13:47] Bejiita Imako: money is just a way we use to put value on things[13:48] herman Bergson: A would call that an American way of thinking with a failing healthcare system, Simargl :-)[13:48] Bejiita Imako: cause we want to have something back for doing something, ex, make a product[13:48] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL and now we have a new frontier after the election,all hell is breaking loose[13:48] Simargl Talaj: <= outraged American, advocate of national healthcare[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: oh yes ari[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: me too simargi[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hahah[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:49] herman Bergson: Ok this is of the record now...[13:49] herman Bergson: officially class is dismissed[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥
Let Bruce Hood do the talking here, the writer of "Supersense: Why we believe in the Unbelievable" (2009).As you see, it is a recent publication. A more radical kind of other member in the choir is "The God Delusion" (2006) by Richard Dawkins.What is going on these days is a development on which I wrote my thesis in 1977. And in those days by some people it was almost regarded as blasphemy: a materialist theory of the mind.In the past 25 years there have been a revolution in technology and science, in our case, neurobiology.This has enabled us to answer a lot of questions about the mind, or should I say , the functioning of the brain.On my desk I have a brand new book, written by a world-famous Dutch neurobiologist, Dick Swaab. The title of the book is most telling: WE ARE OUR BRAIN, from womb to Alzheimer.This is a confirmation of my initial philosophical stand as a young graduate in 1977. A confirmation. Epistemologically it means , according to Popper, that it makes my point of view only more probable, no true.To be honest, after this initial series of lectures on our subject "The Mystery of the Brain", I don't mind. On the one hand in 2010 there is such a plethora of confirming evidence.On the other hand, although there are many books written on the subject, there is so no really hard evidence for all that our supersense is able to generate.When a law of nature is falsified by scientific experiments, it is because we have formulated a law of nature that explains our observations and predictions much better.In the field of the supernatural, we never succeeded in proving the existence of (a) god. The very thought of a proof is almost disqualified as blasphemy and regarded as superfluous by a lot of people, which is most remarkable of course.The scientific research on the results of astrological interpretation came up with apparently significant observations, but yet still highly questionable.But , sorry Bruce, I began by saying that you would do the talking. Go ahead, you have the floor ^_^"IN THIS BOOK, I have proposed that humans are compelled to understand the nature of the world around them as part of the way our brains try to make sense of our experiences. This process starts early in childhood, even before culture has begun to tell children what to think. Along the way, children come up with all manner of beliefs about the world, including those that would have to be supernatural if true. These ideas go beyond the natural laws that we currently understand and hence are supernatural. Whether it is a disembodied mind floating free of the body, a sublime essence that harbors the true identity of people, places, and things, or the idea that people are all connected by tangible energies and hidden patterns, these notions are all intuitive ways of thinking about the world. We persist in these beliefs despite the lack of compelling evidence that the phenomena we think are real do in fact exist. Culture may fuel these beliefs with fantasy and fiction, but they burn brightly in the first place because of our natural inclination to assume “something there,” as William James put it. Culture simply took these beliefs and gave them meaning and content."Thank you, Bruce……….In the concluding lecture, that is only concluding on the theme of Supersense, we'll have a close look at his argument for his point of view.The Discussion[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you....[13:22] herman Bergson: If you have any question or remark...feel free...[13:22] Osiris Malso: ty Sir[13:23] Gemma Cleanslate: i missed part bruce who[13:24] herman Bergson: Bruce Hood is the writer I referred to[13:24] herman Bergson: UK fellow[13:24] Simargl Talaj: I must disagree that any evidence for astrology is statistically significant. Differences among people can be sufficiently explained by other factors that only coincidentally correspond to astrological sign. People whose parents have certain characteristics tend to be born in certain months rather than ohters, so we are really seeing a parent effect I believe.[13:25] Bejiita Imako: there now i've catched up ㋡[13:25] Simargl Talaj: oop forgot the 17 word thing. That will be hard for me.[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: he mentions a time before culture takes the supersense and molds it, when is that?[13:25] Simargl Talaj: sorry[13:25] herman Bergson: Plz read the rules behind me Simargl[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: Herman I thought maybe Hood[13:26] Gemma Cleanslate: i think when we are only infants to 5 or 6[13:26] herman Bergson: Well...culture kicks in in education at a later age....maybe when you are 4 or older...[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: yes about that[13:27] herman Bergson: Before that children already show supernatural beliefs[13:27] Osiris Malso: hehe Simargl dont you turn your bed to east?[13:27] Simargl Talaj: Margaret Meade noted that children in Melanesia had fewer supernatural beliefs than adults. It took culture a long time to ingrain them.[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: if one were to accept this philosophy, then we would tav to admit the babies are not receptive of life until 4?[13:27] herman Bergson: So the inclination to hold supernatural beliefs is hardwired in our brain it seems[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: babies are self centerd individuals[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: the center of their universe until about 2 1/2[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: supersense is so nonsensical to me[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: everyone and thing is there for them[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Simargl you are right...[13:29] herman Bergson: But the frame of mind is wired thus that we only increase those beliefs the older we get...[13:29] Simargl Talaj: Infants and children learn most deeply whatever is connected to their sense of survival even counter to later actual needs for survival. Thus the "supernatural" (not materially supported) beliefs/attitudes of abused children.[13:30] herman Bergson: Well Aristotle....to that nonsensical feature of Supersense we'll get next Thursday...[13:30] AristotleVon Doobie: good LOL[13:31] Simargl Talaj: :)[13:31] Bejiita Imako: then if u tell a small children about well everything they believe it cause they dont know anything other yet, have no other facts,[13:31] Bejiita Imako: for example that santa claus comes down the chimney at christmas eve and so[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: I am confident tho that a child begins to absorb the world from day one[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle...[13:31] Bejiita Imako: thats all they ve heard until they get more facts[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: yes ari they do[13:31] herman Bergson: with a basic mechanism…[13:31] Osiris Malso: yes i think so too[13:31] Bejiita Imako: also a thing[13:32] herman Bergson: To see structures and order in the plethora of sensory experiences[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: so if santa claus comes when they are 1 or 2 so what[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: but after 3 or 4 they believe[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: until they find out later[13:33] Bejiita Imako: I think i believed in that as well until i learned that hmm wait now i ve never seen or heard anyone come down the chimney or something like that[13:33] Osiris Malso: ok people bye se next time[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL, parents think Santa Claus is a good thing for their children to believe in, he is not much different from religion[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes funny to see how we educate our children with fairy tales and then later tell them..sorry all not true[13:33] Osiris Malso: by Sir[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: exactly!!!!!!![13:33] Bejiita Imako: bye Sir[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: bye Osiris[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡ [13:34] Osiris Malso: byee[13:34] Bejiita Imako: and then u find out theat santa is really your grandmother or grandfather or something[13:34] herman Bergson: See you soon Osiris[13:34] Bejiita Imako: in santa chothes[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: but before that was supersense of belief in him[13:34] Bejiita Imako: and why always they go buy the newspaper just before he comes?[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: I wonder if anyone ever thinks about the mistrust that these tales create[13:34] Bejiita Imako: when u start get that together[13:35] herman Bergson: Well Aristotle....relogion takes over there :-)[13:35] AristotleVon Doobie: or is that intended even?[13:35] Bejiita Imako: never the .less santa has a place at christmas eve I think[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: yep[13:35] Bejiita Imako: adds to the correct setting[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: but again that is culture[13:35] Bejiita Imako: I use to be santa myself sometimes[13:35] Bejiita Imako: :[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: I am guilty with my children of passing it on to them[13:36] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita ...I guess now you first need to see a doctor[13:36] Bejiita Imako: lol[13:36] herman Bergson: Well...next lecture we'll introduce rationality....[13:36] Bejiita Imako: Its really interesting this with supernatural believes[13:36] Bejiita Imako: same with ghosts and so[13:37] herman Bergson: as the opponent of supernatural beliefs...[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: great, I need some[13:37] Bejiita Imako: I ve never seen one but many claim they have[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: I would like to be on the rationality team[13:37] Bejiita Imako: in old houses and so they really can hear strange stuff and so[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....it will be a little diappointing I believe[13:38] herman Bergson: Well Aristotle..I think you should wait till next Thursday and then reconsider tour wish[13:38] Bejiita Imako: If they were kind i wouldnt have anything about it if they existed[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: okie dokie[13:38] Bejiita Imako: would be fun to really see one for once[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:39] Simargl Talaj: Herman, how would you like to focus the last few minutes here? I fear I have lost track of what is appropriate,[13:39] herman Bergson: Oh yes Bejiita....I'd really LOVE to see a real ghost...![13:39] Bejiita Imako: would be cool[13:39] herman Bergson: the intellectual and philosophical impact would be gigantic...[13:39] Simargl Talaj: (and religious)[13:39] herman Bergson: Same is even more true when there really landed a true alien on this planet[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ah[13:40] herman Bergson: that would kill God really, tho Nietzsche claimed that he is dead already[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: which is more possible , the alien or the ghost?[13:40] herman Bergson: I would say neither ogf both[13:40] Simargl Talaj: Why would it kill GOd? Religons allow for ghosts.[13:41] Simargl Talaj: a new religion would allow for both gods and ghosts.[13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: wb Gemma[13:41] Bejiita Imako: wb gemma[13:41] herman Bergson: Sim..there is just one god ..one creation...one world....an alien would falsify that all[13:41] Simargl Talaj: and would have the advantage that half its theology was already demonstrated.[13:41] Gemma Cleanslate: not necessarily[13:42] Simargl Talaj: ah, you meant aliens not ghosts. Again I disagree. Religon allows for aliens.[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: yes it does[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: I could start a religion that believes in hobgobblins too, doent make any of it ture[13:42] Simargl Talaj: Hinduism includes the existence of multiple inhabited planets and Catholic theologians have discussed soberly the spiritual condition of aliens if they exist.[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: no but i bet you would have a lot of followers[13:42] herman Bergson: I am sorry, but chrisianity hardly accepted that the earth rotated around the sun[13:42] Simargl Talaj: The doctrine of "that anonymous christian" pertained, I believe.[13:43] herman Bergson: so how can it admitt aliens?[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: Herman it has[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: easily[13:43] Simargl Talaj: It has acepted the solar system for quite a while now.[13:43] herman Bergson: Explain Gemma...:-)[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: depends on how it affects the collection plate[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: because they would be creatures of the same god they believe in[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: it is my understanding that the vatican has issued some documents allowing for that[13:44] herman Bergson: but that would mean that mankind left earth long time ago in space travel...?[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: not[13:44] AristotleVon Doobie: Stargate?[13:44] Simargl Talaj: Universalists would have no trouble with it, and there are Christain Universalists. Buddhists would have no trouble with it. Hindus would have no trouble with it. And the Bible does not say that Earth is the only planet on which God created life, so even Fundamentalist Christians would probabaly survive.[13:44] Simargl Talaj: damn passed the 17 again, sorry. I'm trying.[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: they could have developed just as we did[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: odds are against it I think but it is possible Gemma[13:45] herman Bergson: Well we wont waist our time on such theological discussions....[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802629.htm[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: but aliens and ghosts are just like supersense, ...figments[13:46] herman Bergson: Because basically it presuposes the supernatural belief in a god...[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle..most likely[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: but I will gladly embrace them all if proven to me[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: :_)[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: we all wil if they are proven :-)[13:47] herman Bergson: OH me too...I am still waiting for ET...[13:47] Bejiita Imako: aa yes[13:47] AristotleVon Doobie: indeed, such a nice guy he was[13:47] herman Bergson: yes...[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: if they do exist they are too far away anyway[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: need time travel[13:47] Bejiita Imako: If my LHC could prove something like that to me as well, but Ill have to satisfy if they find the higgs there i guess[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...it seems so[13:48] Bejiita Imako: would be nice to know for sure[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥[13:48] Bejiita Imako: are ghosts real are there something out there or not[13:48] AristotleVon Doobie: just need another Jules Vern[13:48] Bejiita Imako: really curious[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:48] Simargl Talaj: What is our intended topic at this point? The supernatural beliefs of children, and the extent to which they arise independent of culture?[13:48] AristotleVon Doobie: or Roddenb erry[13:48] Bejiita Imako: of all the musterious unknown things[13:48] Bejiita Imako: but i want proof before I bellieve it[13:49] herman Bergson: Well..I think we can conclude our session for today....[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:49] herman Bergson: The issue is clear...we all wait for ET ^_^[13:49] Bejiita Imako: Interesting as usual[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: bergie gave me the beginning[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:49] Bejiita Imako: aa me too,[13:50] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-))[13:50] herman Bergson: Or for a real ghost...which is of couse paradoxicall because ghosts aren't real
Supernatural beliefs are not simply transmitted by what people tell us to think. Rather, I would argue, says Bruce Hood,that our brains have a mind design that leads us naturally to infer structures and patterns in the world and to make sense of it by generating intuitive theories.We generate these intuitive theories at early age. Research has shown that 4 months old babies already respond to structures. These theories create at young age a supersense, a belief that there is more between heaven and earth than we know.The effect of culture, or as Dawkins likes to believe, the indoctrination of religious ideas, occur much later in the child's development.There is something in our biology that leads us to belief. We tends to think that our personal experiences makes our beliefs true. So, this is supposed to be the wiring of our brain. It is not primarily created by culture, but as real hardware by the biological construction of our physiology.If this is a plausible theory, then there should exist a belief, that is certainly supernatural and which is held by almost every person on this planet, until it is , of course, discarded as superstition.According to Bruce Hood there is such a belief: the belief that you can feel that you are being watched. People report that they can detect someone looking at them even though there is no way that our natural senses could register this.This supernatural belief has become so common, that people are even inclined to believe that it is a general human ability.We don't teach our children, that we have this ability but it can be observed that the older we get the more convinced we become of our ability of feeling the unseen gaze of the other.What is the basic intuitive theory on vision. We find examples of this by men like Plato and Euclid, around 300 BC. They believed that the eyes emitted some kind of energy. There is something leaving the eye that , so to speak, grabs the visible world.Even today a lot of people, including university students who have taken lessons in optics, believe that vision is the transfer of something entering the eyes at the same time as something exiting the eyes. This probably explains why the sense of being stared at seems so intuitively plausible.Our language is full of expressions that confirm this supernatural belief. "If looks could kill" only suggest that what is emitted from the eye has too low energy to do the job.In a paper published in The Lancet in 1921, some Charles Russ wrote:"The fact that the direct gaze or vision of one person soon becomes intolerable to another person suggested to me that there might be a ray or radiation issuing from the human eye.""Strangers in the night exchanging glances Wondering in the night………", sings Sinatra, as if there was some physical thing that passes between two people.Although we know, that science has proven that the eye receives light which is processed by the visual cortex and so on and so on we still love to be strangers in the night and exchange our glances.Dawkins and others argue with sweeping titles as "The God Delusion" to kick out all supernatural beliefs, starting with religion. Will they ever succeed in their crusade.I guess, that in the next lecture we can evaluate the meaning and function of our supersense and come to a conclusion.The Discussion[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you...[13:21] Anske Beattie claps!![13:22] herman Bergson: If you have a remark or question..the floor is yours[13:22] itsme Frederix: ... at last ... a conclusion[13:22] AristotleVon Doobie: I am of the opinion that this gazing to another is more psychological that supersense[13:22] herman Bergson: yes Itsme..it is about time :-)[13:23] herman Bergson: psychological in the sense that we imagine things, Aristotle , yes[13:23] AristotleVon Doobie: the difference from introverted and extroverted folks[13:23] Jarapanda Snook: When you say that humans are hardwired, is this a primitive self protection reaction, to be wary of the unknown?[13:24] AristotleVon Doobie: hmmm :)[13:24] herman Bergson: That is pretty paradoxical jara....[13:24] Beertje Beaumont: but as real hardware by the biological construction of our physiology. does it mean animals have supersensn too?[13:25] herman Bergson: No Beertje....they only have instinct...they cant reflect on their existence[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: and our rationallity determining where to sustain the gaze[13:25] Jarapanda Snook: and we transfer this fear of the unknowwn (a real threat such as that of a tiger in the night, say) to imagined threat - or superstition?[13:25] herman Bergson: First of all the expression "The Unknown"[13:26] herman Bergson: it suggest that we KNOW the Unknown..otherwise we cant refer to it in a meaningful way..[13:26] Beertje Beaumont: it keeps us from danger..[13:26] herman Bergson: A primitive self protection......[13:26] Qwark Allen: indeed[13:26] herman Bergson: The wiring of the brain is the result of evolution....[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ah[13:27] herman Bergson: and there is no unknown...there is our interpretation of the world around us...[13:27] Jarapanda Snook: so - we are as fearful of the unknown as we are of a tiger[13:27] herman Bergson: Some interpretations are generated by our supersense...[13:27] Beertje Beaumont: we are fearfull of the unseen[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: the wiring of the primal brain is fixed long ago, we evolve out own cerebral cortex through experience[13:27] herman Bergson: I wouldnt say that Jara.....[13:28] herman Bergson: How can you fear what you dont know?[13:28] Lea Supermarine: and what when you are not feared about the tiger?[13:28] herman Bergson: We have a dutch saying....[13:28] herman Bergson: What you dont know, never hurts[13:28] itsme Frederix: It is said tha people fear the most they do not know[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: is a baby afraid of a tiger?[13:28] Jarapanda Snook: that is the human condition, surely - to imagine a threat as this will prepare us for any real threats[13:29] herman Bergson: I would say it otherwise Itsme...[13:29] herman Bergson: people fear the most that they cant explain.....but they KNOW that there is something there[13:30] Jarapanda Snook: my point is this - we have an innate fear (or caution) of the unknown and that leads is to superstition[13:30] AristotleVon Doobie: babys are born knowing how to swim, it is the fear gained after birth that makes them drown[13:30] herman Bergson: It is exactly our supersense that helps us here...[13:30] Jarapanda Snook: and superstition leads to religion[13:30] herman Bergson: We could fear death.....supersense comes up with all kinds of stories about afterlife, reincarnation, merging energies and so on[13:30] Beertje Beaumont: for people to feel safe[13:31] herman Bergson: yes....[13:31] herman Bergson: But what has been our point all the time....[13:31] herman Bergson: such theories defy all laws of nature...[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: my typing would not type but i have to agree with ari about the psychological being more to answer[13:31] Beertje Beaumont: supersense is a part of human being[13:31] Bejiita Imako: aa true[13:31] herman Bergson: that is what theories do that are generated by our supersense..[13:32] Jarapanda Snook: do you thinks that the higher mammals have a supersense?[13:32] herman Bergson: If the brain is the tool to help the species survive, supersense theories can be a danger[13:33] herman Bergson: Supersense means that you can imagine that there is more behind nature than just physics....[13:33] herman Bergson: I dont think animals have that ability[13:33] Jarapanda Snook: how can you tell?[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: but that sounds so delusional[13:34] herman Bergson: Basic condition is the possibility to abstract these ideas..which means..translate them into language...[13:34] Jarapanda Snook: dolphins, dogs and chimpanzees seem to demonstrate certain features of supersense?[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: nature more than physics :)[13:34] Bejiita Imako: physics and chemistry[13:35] herman Bergson: No not of supersense....but of sofisticated ways of communication and understanding their environment[13:35] Bejiita Imako: and some more stuff[13:35] herman Bergson: supersensee means the ability to have supernatural beliefs...for instance that there is a god[13:35] Jarapanda Snook: can you define supersense more clearly, Herman?[13:36] herman Bergson: I havent heard of any religious animal so far..except the human being[13:36] Beertje Beaumont: cause they are smarter than we are..[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: becuase human are clever and cunning :)[13:36] Jarapanda Snook: if you define it as "something that humans have" that is a recursive definition[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: devious even[13:36] herman Bergson: Ididnt define it that way jara...[13:37] herman Bergson: supersense means the ability to beliefve in supernatural ideas[13:37] herman Bergson: Supernatural ideas are ideas about reality that defy any law of nature and can not be tested in any way[13:37] herman Bergson: To begin with the believe in the existence of god[13:38] herman Bergson: or a god[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: I was tutored in the ability and had to strugel to rid myself of it[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: struggle*[13:38] Jarapanda Snook: If a child is told that God is watching him so he must be good - that will stay with him forever...[13:39] Beertje Beaumont: oh yes it does Jara[13:39] itsme Frederix: Jar, forever ... well it takes some time[13:39] Jarapanda Snook: so that is a supernatural feeliing which has been planted in the child...[13:39] herman Bergson: that is exactly what the brain generates.....the idea that you are being watched...[13:39] Lea Supermarine: till he finds out that even when he is not good that god is not there[13:39] herman Bergson: religions make good use of this inclination to keep people in check[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: :) indeed the guilt of going against it with haunt them[13:39] herman Bergson: in general...[13:40] Jarapanda Snook: but if that is a planted notion how do you know that it is innate?[13:40] Lea Supermarine: or when he is good[13:40] herman Bergson: research has shown that when people feel being watched they behave better..more social[13:40] herman Bergson: Let me give you a funny example....[13:40] Bejiita Imako: oki ㋡[13:40] Jarapanda Snook: Would a persone who was brought up by wolves, for example, have superstition?[13:41] herman Bergson: In the cantine you can take coffee...more or less for free...but there is a honesty box....[13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: our Government is doing a good job of making us behave[13:41] herman Bergson: put in a few pennies for the coffee pl..[13:41] herman Bergson: the experiment was this...[13:41] herman Bergson: they put a picture of two eyes above the box for a few weeks....[13:42] Qwark Allen: omg[13:42] Jarapanda Snook: hehe - and loads more money was paid in[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hehe ok[13:42] herman Bergson: then they exchanged the picture of the eyes for a picture of flowers....[13:42] herman Bergson: Exactly jara....[13:42] Jarapanda Snook: and nobody paid up[13:42] herman Bergson: three times more donations when the eyes were up.[13:42] Jarapanda Snook: wow[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hehe ok[13:42] herman Bergson: this is our mental wiring.... :-)[13:42] Bejiita Imako: interesting since its just a picture[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: but that is not an innate response[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: that has to be learned[13:43] herman Bergson: yes Aristotle.....[13:43] Bejiita Imako: but I would have done it no matter what[13:43] herman Bergson: to some extend it is...[13:43] Jarapanda Snook: so this is because we are generally all brought up to be good with our mothers eyes watching us[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Jara..it is as simple as that....[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: the diff between right and wrong has many instructors[13:43] herman Bergson: An other experiment.....[13:44] Jarapanda Snook: how does that relate to superstition?[13:44] herman Bergson: Let me tell you...[13:44] itsme Frederix: Let's get things straight: supersticion ~ supersense[13:44] herman Bergson: Students were given an examination....by computer...[13:45] itsme Frederix: (I mean use the right words)[13:45] herman Bergson: the computer was programmed to ---by mistake -- show the right answer now and then....[13:45] herman Bergson: the student could use it and cheat....[13:45] herman Bergson: one group was told nothing....and did the exam...[13:45] herman Bergson: another group was told that there was a ghost in the examination room.....[13:46] Jarapanda Snook: oooooh[13:46] herman Bergson: a student had died there.....so bit spooky…[13:46] Bejiita Imako: hehe ok[13:46] herman Bergson: the group that heard the ghost story cheated less than the group that didnt...:-)[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: sneaky too[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL[13:46] Jarapanda Snook: wow - that's really interesting Herman[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hehe yes[13:47] herman Bergson: Not so exciting....[13:47] AristotleVon Doobie: I'd be wanting to talk to the ghost[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:47] Beertje Beaumont: it was a silent ghost[13:47] herman Bergson: A lot of cultures believe that our ancestors are still watching us....[13:47] herman Bergson: kids are brought up with the idea that God sees everything...[13:47] AristotleVon Doobie: sure, watching from above[13:48] herman Bergson: it is in our mental system...[13:48] herman Bergson: all superstition but it works[13:48] Jarapanda Snook: In my view that is all about population control[13:48] herman Bergson: sure....[13:48] AristotleVon Doobie: :)[13:48] Beertje Beaumont: of course[13:48] AristotleVon Doobie: right on Jar[13:49] Jarapanda Snook: and we are imbued from birth with the feeling that we are being watched - by Mother, God, Ghosts or whatever[13:49] herman Bergson: It is our ability to believe inthesupernatural that makes this possible[13:49] Jarapanda Snook: but it is really about keeping us under control[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes Jara and it is plain superstition[13:49] Jarapanda Snook: Is It?????[13:50] Jarapanda Snook: is it instinctive, or burned into us?[13:50] Lea Supermarine: keep them dumb[13:50] AristotleVon Doobie: then the 'supernatural' is just like the 'unknown'[13:50] herman Bergson: It is a result of evolution to make the group work...[13:50] Jarapanda Snook: they are synonymous[13:50] AristotleVon Doobie: both to be feared[13:51] Jarapanda Snook: So - is it instinctive, or burned into us?[13:51] itsme Frederix: Herman that's theory, an explanation ~ but you might be right[13:51] herman Bergson: In fact our inclination to believe in the supernatural is a kind of social oil to keep the group together[13:51] herman Bergson: and functioning[13:51] Jarapanda Snook: Herman - do you have any eys over the tipjar????[13:51] Qwark Allen: ehehhe[13:51] herman Bergson: Itsme..it is a theory....[13:52] AristotleVon Doobie: I contend we are branded with the fury of authority[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:52] herman Bergson: and when it is a scientific one it is open for falsification of course...[13:52] itsme Frederix: fast learning >Jar !![13:52] Lea Supermarine: making me the texture already ;)[13:52] herman Bergson: lol...I should install a picture there yes...good idea Jarapanda[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:53] AristotleVon Doobie: that oil that lubes the group is often times fatal to the individual[13:53] Jarapanda Snook: it was Lea's joke Herman lol[13:54] herman Bergson: well...I think that we are ready to conlude this part of our quest about the brain next week[13:54] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)[13:54] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:54] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T * ::::::::::[13:54] herman Bergson: Don't worry..we aren't done yet....[13:54] AristotleVon Doobie: Thank you Professor[13:54] Jarapanda Snook: Thanks Herman[13:54] Jarapanda Snook: no?[13:54] Qwark Allen: ty hermann, was very interesting today[13:54] Bejiita Imako: really interesting again ㋡[13:54] herman Bergson: For today yes :-)[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation....[13:55] Gemma Cleanslate: see you tuesday if I can[13:55] Jarapanda Snook: good debate Herman[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)[13:55] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Herman[13:55] AristotleVon Doobie: bye Gemma :)[13:55] Bejiita Imako: \o/[13:55] Bejiita Imako: || Hoooo![13:55] Bejiita Imako: / \[13:55] Jarapanda Snook: byee all[13:55] Bejiita Imako: great[13:55] AristotleVon Doobie: bye Jara[13:55] Beertje Beaumont: *•.¸'*•.¸ ♥ ¸.•*´¸.•*[13:55] Beertje Beaumont: .•*♥¨`• BRAVO!!!! •¨`♥*•.[13:55] Beertje Beaumont: ¸.•*`¸.•*´ ♥ `*•.¸`*•.¸[13:55] Lea Supermarine: thanks herman and bye all[13:55] Bejiita Imako: some more stuff to think about again ㋡[13:55] Qwark Allen: party time[13:55] herman Bergson: Bye everyone[13:55] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
If you ever had the idea that the human being is a rational being then I have to disappoint you: THAT is an illusion. Oh yes, we can be very rational. Fortunately! The result of it is our scientific knowledge.But in daily live…we…rational? Forget it. Ok ..now and then, but you will have to acknowledge that in general that a lot of our decisions are based on supernatural thinking, on our supersense.For instance, to begin with physical contact. When you love someone dearly you'll embrace that person, even wishper in his or her ear…“just wants to eat you all up”, not physically of course, but that special you.On the other hand, when you meet someone who you deeply despise, you are reluctant to even shake hands, but if you have to your first impulse could be to go and wash your hands.There is more….. Muslims that refuse to shake hands with a woman, that is , touch a woman. Although abolished in India you still have the "untouchables", the lowest class in society there.The same you saw in racial segregation in the US and the Apartheid system in South Africa. All based on the same idea….these people are no good.They will contaminate you with…..With what? We are inclined to believe that a human being is not just a collection of molecules or organs and limbs. He has some essence, his personal being or identity.Where do these feelings come from ? The answer may lie in what we have developed in childhood to understand the world: psychological essentialism. That is how the mind intuitively tries to understand nature.We put things into categories, classes, structures. We try to bring order intothe chaos of our experiences and then say: that is a man, that is a woman, that is an animal. And then we develop an idea what a man makes to be a man, for instance.We are inclined to believe that humans have essential qualities, which we call youth, temperament, beauty, but also evil and that by touching the other person you get 'contaminated" or just get a bit of that essence of the other. Just look how fans try to touch their idol, for instance.There is plenty of evidence that the supernatural belief that we can absorb the good essences of others or can be contaminated by the evil of others is common throughout our culture, practices and attitudes.We even have these beliefs on a cellular level. Do you want to have the heart of an executed serial killer transplanted in you, for instance?There is a supernatural belief that the psychological aspects of anindividual are stored in the organ tissue and can be transferredto the host recipient.Sex with another person is layered with essential, vitalistic, and holistic beliefs. Even in Second Life you encounter the working of our supersense here.People have the feeling of being at one with the other, soul mate, achieving a sacred union or when promiscuity is involved some feel filthy and unclean, when they discover this.There is no physical evidence at all that anything of this really happens, but our brain is wired to think so and there may be an evolutionary explanation.If essences are thought to be transferable, we will not consider ourselves isolated individuals but rather members of a tribe potentially joined to each other through beliefs in supernatural connectedness.Our brain generates these supernatural belief not only regarding other persons, but also with non living things. Ever thought about that picture on your desk of your deceased brother.When you look at it, you experience more than just a picture. You experience a contact. And when you are dead, people who have to clean the house just see a useless picture and maybe they'll keep the frame.Look at art. In 2005 Sotheby’s in London sold 'Lady Seated at a Vestral' for $32 million, following ten years of dispute about whether it was an original Vermeer masterpiece or a twentieth-century forgery attributed to the expert forger Han van Meegeren. After it was announced that the picture was an original Vermeer, its value soared.There is that magic quality which we call authenticity. A copy of the jacket of Michael Jackson isn't worth a dime.The original one is worth a fortune. Our supersense at work.Psychological essentialism is probably one of the main foundations of the universal supernatural belief that there is something more to reality.It is in all of us. Influences our judgements and reactions. Don't claim that you are rationality itself, because you aren't. It is a continuum from absolute rationality to absolute supernatural thinking. Somewhere in-between these two extremes you are.The Discussion[13:26] herman Bergson: Thank you...:-)[13:26] Jozen Ocello: thanks :)[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:26] Bejiita Imako: interesting[13:26] herman Bergson: If you have a question or remark....feel free...[13:27] Alarice Beaumont: good lesson... can go along with all you said i would suppose[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: throws out all the frames in my house[13:27] Beertje Beaumont: i think supernatural thinking makes us human[13:27] Bejiita Imako: here there are many things that are true for sure[13:27] Alarice Beaumont: people need a structure.... otherwise it wouldn't work - the life together[13:27] herman Bergson: I agree Beertje.....[13:27] herman Bergson: it is wrong to deny this part of us or talk it down even[13:28] herman Bergson: The only thing is that we have to be aware of it...[13:28] herman Bergson: History shows so many examples of it...[13:28] Bejiita Imako: the importance is to use it the right way and the good parts of it[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: interesting that after so much study of it it still affects us[13:28] herman Bergson: World leaders that meat and immediately dislike eachother....[13:29] Jozen Ocello: or click like buddies (Blair and Bush)[13:29] herman Bergson: Well Gemma...there is a new wave now....[13:29] herman Bergson: For instance..this morning...[13:29] herman Bergson: My newspaper comes with the announcement of a series of articles on free will[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: ah[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ok[13:30] herman Bergson: the heading is "The Death of Free Will"[13:30] Alarice Beaumont: aw.. isn't that a little drastic Herman?[13:30] Alarice Beaumont: you do want to provoke?![13:30] herman Bergson: When I started my philosophical quest in 1978 on the identity thesis (mind == body)[13:31] herman Bergson: there was hardly any neurobilogical evidence...[13:31] herman Bergson: No Alarice..it is not....[13:32] herman Bergson: There is neurobiological evidence that when you decide to move your finger the motoric center of the brain has been active al least 200 millisecondes before you became aware of what you wanted to do...[13:32] Jozen Ocello: i wonder how 'alive' free will actually is.......[13:33] herman Bergson: It means...brain centers fire before you are conscious of it...[13:33] herman Bergson: Well Jozen....[13:33] herman Bergson: there is a parallel in history....[13:33] Alarice Beaumont: think it depends on how one defines "free will"[13:33] herman Bergson: I mentioned Kant....[13:34] herman Bergson: His epistemological interpretation is more in line with neurological evidence than the tabula rasa theory of Locke[13:34] herman Bergson: We'lll CERTAINLY get to that Alarice...dont worry ^_^[13:35] herman Bergson: Regarding to free will we have Freud....[13:35] Alarice Beaumont: ◕‿◕[13:35] herman Bergson: To some extend he was a fraud, but he had the insight that we are not controlled by our will only[13:36] herman Bergson: there is a subconscious[13:36] Jozen Ocello: what does it mean to have free will? and does having free will means that we are in control of our minds (i.e. more rational)?[13:36] herman Bergson: Today neurobiologists discover that the brain is acting before we are conscious of what it makes us do...[13:36] Jozen Ocello: sorry if I'm asking questions that are too basic :P[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: I fully suspect that the foundation for all these supersensical things have some empircal basis we have stored in our brain since birth or a combination of data, then summoned as we need them[13:37] herman Bergson: Your questions are to the point Jozen....[13:37] Gemma Cleanslate: very possible aristotle[13:37] herman Bergson: But we'll need to dig into them thouroughly[13:38] Bejiita Imako: aaa can be possible[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: like the reasons I would cringe if I had to shake hands with Bush[13:38] herman Bergson: Oh yes Aristotle..that is what I have said several times...[13:38] Jozen Ocello: maybe throw a shoe or two, but definitely not shake hands :P hehe[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: that is based on my calculated opinion[13:38] herman Bergson: cognitive psychology studies the development of the mind.....[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: of him[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: yes[13:39] Gemma Cleanslate: would be terrible but someone asked me a while back would you want to shake hands with Clinton??[13:39] herman Bergson: I also referred to Jean Piaget as one of the first explorers in that field[13:39] Gemma Cleanslate: lol[13:39] herman Bergson: well Gemma....[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:40] herman Bergson: physics say that skins touch...supersense say....well say it yourself :-)[13:40] Jozen Ocello: hi Rodney[13:40] Bejiita Imako: well i wouldn't go near Bush, he is a world destroyer![13:40] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)[13:40] Rodney Handrick: Hi Jozen[13:40] Bejiita Imako: or as I call him[13:40] Bejiita Imako: BOOOOOOOSSSHHH! ( the smell)¨[13:40] Gemma Cleanslate: agreed sort of[13:41] herman Bergson: Bruce Hood gives a nice example....[13:41] Alarice Beaumont: lol now we are starting a political discussion lool[13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: lol[13:41] herman Bergson: He held a lecture once..and showed the audience a fountain pen...[13:41] Bejiita Imako: haha[13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: but the feeling relates to our disussion[13:41] Bejiita Imako: indeed[13:41] herman Bergson: he said that it had belonged to Einstein...and he passed it around...[13:41] herman Bergson: everybody was eager to hold the pen for a second...[13:42] herman Bergson: Then he showed a jacket to the audience..[13:42] herman Bergson: This, he said, is the jacket of the serial killer so and so...[13:42] herman Bergson: and he asked…Who wants to try this on?[13:42] Beertje Beaumont: lol..nobody?[13:43] Alarice Beaumont: awww.... no one did?![13:43] herman Bergson: well..I guess you can guess the effect[13:43] Alarice Beaumont: i wouldn't[13:43] Bejiita Imako: I wouldn't in fact i think[13:43] herman Bergson: No..and the person who put up his hand ...well..he didnt make friends there[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: I would have to try it on to disprove the spook of it[13:43] herman Bergson: Yet it is a perfect proof of how our supersense works[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle...[13:44] AristotleVon Doobie: the fear does exist tho[13:45] herman Bergson: And even if you would have said that there...50% of the audience at least would have regarded you as a pervert, I guess :-)[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL[13:45] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:45] Beertje Beaumont: oh yes[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: self confidence trumps fear[13:45] Alarice Beaumont: lol yes[13:45] herman Bergson: If you realize....it is amazing how our brain works..how it is wired...[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: welll no one likes to be fooled[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: that would make me more angry than the jacket[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: but it is like saying I believe in Jesus before dieing just in case it is true[13:46] herman Bergson: LOL[13:46] Beertje Beaumont: lol Ari[13:46] herman Bergson: good strategy Aristotle[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)[13:46] Alarice Beaumont: ,-)[13:46] herman Bergson: But what I wanted to say....[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:47] herman Bergson: My newspaper starts a series on articles on Free will, or the death of it....now...2010...[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: will be interesting to hear what they say about it all[13:47] herman Bergson: there are also a lot of publictions on neurobilological subjects...[13:47] Alarice Beaumont: have to go... sorry.. see you next time.. bye everyone :-)[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡ [13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: ah alarice[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ok cu Alarice[13:47] Rodney Handrick: bye[13:48] Jozen Ocello: bye Alarice[13:48] AristotleVon Doobie: b-bye Alarice[13:48] herman Bergson: Here on my desk I have a brand new Dutch publication:WE ARE OUR BRIAN[13:48] herman Bergson: in other words...[13:49] herman Bergson: there is something happening at the moment...in philosophy and neurobiology...[13:49] herman Bergson: something that wasn't there in 1978[13:49] herman Bergson: even not in 1995[13:49] Rodney Handrick: hmm...[13:50] herman Bergson: I have a piblication of an anthology on mind - body questions....still all 100% philosophical[13:50] herman Bergson: no neurobiological influence at all[13:50] herman Bergson: That influence is emerging now...2010[13:50] Gemma Cleanslate: hmmm[13:51] herman Bergson: even so strong that it reaches a national newpaper[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ah¨[13:52] herman Bergson: so we are in the frontlines of the battle here :-)[13:52] herman Bergson: Well...I guess you all have to digest this all first....[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:53] AristotleVon Doobie: chewing now[13:53] herman Bergson: May I thank you for your attention and participation then....[13:53] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:53] Gemma Cleanslate: herman[13:53] Bejiita Imako: nice[13:53] AristotleVon Doobie: Thank you Professor[13:53] Jozen Ocello: thanks Prof :)[13:53] Rodney Handrick: thanks[13:53] herman Bergson: You always can re read all in our blog[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:54] herman Bergson: http://thephilosophyclass.blogspot.com[13:54] Gemma Cleanslate: abraxas says he is following it[13:54] herman Bergson: Nice...[13:54] herman Bergson: Give him my regards when you see him Gemma[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all....^_^[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)[13:55] Gemma Cleanslate: i will for sure he said he was going to talk to you may come as Carl[13:55] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Herman[13:55] AristotleVon Doobie: lol[13:55] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon ㋡[13:55] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡ [13:55] Gemma Cleanslate: all see you soon[13:55] Jozen Ocello: thanks and see you all on Thursday[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty :-)
You may wonder whether our efforts to clarify the phenomenon of supersense has any practical meaning or not. I think, I can show you how practical our insights are.In the Netherlands we have an extreme right-wing party. Some of you may have heard of its leader, Geert Wilders. In 2007 we had two members of the government, who had a double nationality, two passports.One Dutch passport and one Moroccan passport. This Mr. Wilders then said, that he is against a double nationality. Not because these two persons were Morrocan. Literally he said in parliament: " If you had blond hair and a Swedish passport, I would have said the same".And what happens? Among the group of people who are now our new government is a lady (not blond), but with a Swedish passport! Thence Mr. Wilders demands again for removal of this double nationally person, or the lady has to give up her swedish passport.In my opinion this is a perfect example how our supersense operates in society. Let me quote Bruce to clarify my point.Our mind design seems set to look for patterns and deeper causal explanations for the different kinds of things we think exist in the living world. This process leads to spontaneous untaught concepts of essences, life energies and holistic connection. Many of these beliefs can also be found in ancient models of the natural world where hidden structures and mechanisms where thought to reflect a supernatural order in the universe.While these intuitive concepts have real scientific validity to some extent, our naive way of thinking about them leads us to attribute additional properties that would be supernatural if true.Such beliefs also influence the way we see ourselves as members of a group. In particular, our supersense leads us to infer something essential and integral to the group that should not be violated or contaminated by outside influences. -END BRUCEIn this passport affaire we have a perfect example of how supernatural ideas work, or even endanger a society, for on the one hand we have us (the citizens with just a Dutch passport) and on the other hand there are those (inhabitants with more passports)Here you see that because of the possession of two administrative documents this Mr. Wilders attributes a special quality to these persons, or actually the lack of a special quality: to be 100% Dutch only.Of course it is formulated in other words. It is said that it is a show of loyalty to the Netherlands to give up your second passport.What we are witnessing here is vulgar nationalism. The supernatural belief that living within the borders of a country adds to your person the special quality of being Dutch.What we really see is a primitive way of thinking, which leads us to infer something essential and integral to the group that should not be violated or contaminated by outside influences.We can feel revulsion and disgust for everything that deviates from the sacred values of the group. An obvious example of the intuitive inclination to revulsion is racism and in our case nationalism.This passport affaire aims at vulgar nationalism. You also hear it in the words of the German prime minister, who said that the multi-cultural society has proven to be a failure.Here you see how important it is to be aware of our drive to see forces and essences, where they are not. Nationalism and racism have left deep wounds in European history, as it has elsewhere on this planet.When you are not one of us, we identify you as someone who is not prepared the share the group's sacred values even when these values are purely arbitrary. That is the attitude here. Dangerous.This is because our supersense makes these values seem reasonable because of the moral indignation we experience fuelled by our intuitive emotional system. As social animals, we depend on our supersense, even when it flies in the face of reason. (Bruce)Ok…and now the politicians at word. The man who is now Prime Minister said int 2007 and I quote:" The Dutch passport is not just a piece of paper, it stands for a nationality, a nation to which you belong and it just isn't right if you have a double nationality"In 2010, just recently he was asked about the presence of a person with double nationality in his government… and I quote: "From the fact that I was familiar with her double nationality you may conclude that I do't see a problem here."That is a super supersense world!!!!The Discussion[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you....[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: oh brother[13:24] Bejiita Imako: really crazy[13:24] Alarice Beaumont: aw...that really is something... yes[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes bejiita ..but that is the effect of our supersen...[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: we have the same type of thing going on here at this time[13:24] Alarice Beaumont: but that is reality.. how ppl think[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Alarice...and we know it is based on nothing....but emotions[13:25] Bejiita Imako: guess its a bit like what Hitler was thinking about killing all people in the world except the arians, not as extreme but same hirrible way of thinking in general[13:25] Bejiita Imako: people are people[13:25] Bejiita Imako: nomater where they are from[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: we are always reinventing ourselves i guess[13:25] Alarice Beaumont: well... not so sure about that Herman.... it's the experience ppl have[13:25] Alarice Beaumont: lol yes Gemma[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: is it not like situation ethics???[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: the idea of a melting pot of culture and hence nationalities is absurd in reality[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Alarice….[13:26] Bejiita Imako: one other example in sweden is when fully educated engineers from iraque / iran or some other place are handed a vacuum cleaner or asked to mop toilets, in best case they become pizza bakers[13:26] AristotleVon Doobie: the US has been taunted as melting pot, it is a false claim[13:26] Alarice Beaumont: yes.. i think it would take generation to succeed in this Ari and the ppl really have to be willing[13:26] herman Bergson: One of the characteristics of supersense ideas is that they are based on personal experience...never on scientific facts and research[13:26] Bejiita Imako: thats racisctic and a horrible waste of human resource[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: groups will form within every group and then splintger off into new groups[13:27] Alarice Beaumont: yes.. in the use it doesn't really melt... they just stay what they are, live near each other but thousand of miles away...[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: more than a generation this has been going on here every 40-50 years or so when new nationalities begin to grow here[13:27] Alarice Beaumont: and keep their culture and even language... horrible[13:28] Alarice Beaumont: hmm.. wrong word for this... but that's not melting in the way i would describe it[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: well[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: yes[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: the US governmenst even support the dual langues[13:28] herman Bergson: We have the same problem here...[13:28] herman Bergson: Morrocan women live here for 30 years and still dont speak Dutch...[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: but here usually the first generations does that and i dont blame them but after the second generation become adult they blend moer into the society[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: it is a case of education too[13:29] Bejiita Imako: I think people should adapt somewhere to here at least, for example i dont speak arabic or farsi and they sometimes even cant speak english[13:29] Jozen Ocello: policies[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: the politicians pander to the splintered groups for votes[13:29] herman Bergson: But let's get back to the main issue here...[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥[13:30] Qwark Allen: :-)[13:30] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:30] herman Bergson: nationalism and racisim are clear examples of supernatural thinking[13:30] Bejiita Imako: its we and them sort of[13:30] herman Bergson: and it proofs how dangerous supernatural thinking can be for our species if it wants to survive[13:31] Alarice Beaumont: and Herman.. i never would have put that subject under "superstitious"[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: wow never really considered it a supernatural thinking[13:31] herman Bergson: that is the point I wanted to make today...[13:31] herman Bergson: But it is Gemma...[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hmm not me wither but guess can be logical[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: yes i see[13:32] herman Bergson: Put me on the table…dissect me...and try to find my Dutchness in the corps[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥[13:32] Alarice Beaumont: isn't it just putting the experience one had with some person... on to all[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: would you equate the stated example as be relative to the political parties ing the US, Republic & Democrat? One must believe the whole platform to belong?[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: i bet it is visible[13:32] Alarice Beaumont: lool[13:32] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:32] herman Bergson: Ok...I wear wooden shoes....lol[13:32] Alarice Beaumont: loool[13:32] ladyy Haven: lol[13:33] Bejiita Imako: haha[13:33] Bejiita Imako: that i have some really good ones rl[13:33] herman Bergson: what is ignored is that we are just human beings...[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yes we are all the same[13:34] herman Bergson: a bumblebee in the US doesn't differ from a bumblebee in the Netherlands....same insects...or do we have Dutch bumblebees, that don't speak english???[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: primally, we are all the same, cerebrally we are all different[13:34] Bejiita Imako: one thing i love with SL is you meet people from all world and have great fun[13:34] herman Bergson: the idea that we are a NATION....is idiotic supersense ado....[13:34] herman Bergson: and look how politicians deal with it...[13:35] Bejiita Imako: not at all on the completely wrong way[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes...as Bruce admits too...we need such supernatioral ideas to keep the group together[13:35] Bejiita Imako: groups to me are people i like no matter where they are from[13:36] herman Bergson: you are globalized Bejiita :-)[13:36] Bejiita Imako: like in SL the hydra group is where i have really good friends[13:36] Bejiita Imako: all of you[13:36] Jozen Ocello: i think diversity draws the group closer together in a way...[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: our society of groups are similar to the food chain, the langer groups are a danger to the smaller ones[13:37] herman Bergson: So the US is a danger to the little ones Aristitle??? :-)[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: certainly a danger to individuals[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: yes the US is a danger :))[13:37] herman Bergson: smiles...[13:37] Gemma Cleanslate: afraid so[13:37] Bejiita Imako: aaa some don't even know the world map, they think the world is only USA[13:38] herman Bergson: Better get back to our philosphical point...[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: it is that human nature thing and the lack of control of it by our reasoning mind[13:38] Bejiita Imako: mixes sweden with schweiz thinking we make watches and sweden house the LHC[13:39] herman Bergson: If I would believe you Bejiita it really seems to be so..:-)[13:39] Bejiita Imako: well we have particle accelerators, biggest syncrotron light source in world is being built and wee also will have the ESS accelerator, the worlds biggest neutron gun[13:39] Bejiita Imako: i at least think the MAX 4 accelerator will be the biggest[13:40] herman Bergson: Well..I think that you now all have seen how supersense works in society...[13:40] Bejiita Imako: we have that but NOT the LHC[13:40] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes[13:40] Bejiita Imako: really interesting ideas[13:40] herman Bergson: We always have to be on alert to expose that kind of thinking...[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: It seems civilized society is merely manipulated anarchy, whoever has the biggest gun wins[13:40] Bejiita Imako: about stuff i get SOOOO mad about when i read the news sometimes[13:41] Qwark Allen: fear will be the biggest gun[13:41] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:41] Jozen Ocello: almost like in the game, civilization[13:41] herman Bergson: ANother chapter Qwark...but a big one ^_^[13:41] Qwark Allen: :-)[13:41] Qwark Allen: nice[13:41] Bejiita Imako: aa yes, i thought about that one, in that game i can be a real swine killing lot of others and play hitler and so but thats only a game, I am not like that[13:41] herman Bergson: So I guess..I made my point and you got the idea for today...[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: yes[13:42] Bejiita Imako: but i like to play CIV[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: got it![13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: and the fear of the double passports goes deep into the innate urge to survive, you and your group[[13:42] herman Bergson: Then I thank you all for your participation.....[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: for class[13:42] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)[13:42] Bejiita Imako: great Herman[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: i missed tues will read on the blog[13:42] Bejiita Imako: got some really nice insights[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: Thank you Professor[13:42] herman Bergson: The double passport issue is utter nonsense![13:42] Qwark Allen: very interesting as always[13:43] Jozen Ocello: thanks[13:43] Bejiita Imako: true[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: have been busy in rl and at the burn2[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ah burs 2 is really fun[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: hope i will make it on tuesday[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: indeed , but it puts a foreign agent in you midst to some[13:43] Bejiita Imako: wonder what happens there now[13:43] Alarice Beaumont: yes.. me too[13:43] Bejiita Imako: did y played before Q[13:43] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)[13:43] Qwark Allen: ☆ - ~*~Partyyyyyyyyyy!!!!~*~ - ☆[13:43] Qwark Allen: indeed, and was nice13:43] Bejiita Imako: aa ㋡
