In response to my lecture of last Tuesday, I received the following message from one of those present then:
[13:55] A Student in class: (Saved Tue Nov 19 23:46:52 2019)Hi mr herman! It was very impressive, because almost never, you have far left and far right ppl in one room debating!
My first thought was "Thank you for the compliment, dear student", but my second thought was..."wow, this is a really sad observation."
Can't people have interesting conversations and debates about differences of opinion anymore?
When you look at the UK with its Brexit or the USA with its Reps vs. Dems controversy, you really would begin to believe that that is the case indeed.
However, we still can. This is not a political rally or something like that, but it is The Philosophy Class. Our goal is to wonder about things.
To investigate arguments which support opinion A or B, to listen and weigh, not a battle to get your opinion applauded as the right one.
Being right is not interesting at all here. Investigating why you could be right and under what conditions, that is the point here.
If there is anything that we have inherited from the 20th century, it is the unwillingness to enter into an honest debate with each other.
The most painful example today is the political situation in the United States. Don't think that this has anything to do with the impeachment process.
The real partisan differences started already in the 1980s, when Reagan and Thatcher embraced the free market economics and a smaller roll for the government.
quote - "In the aftermath of a potentially demoralizing 2008 electoral defeat, when the Republican Party seemed widely discredited,
the emergence of the Tea Party provided conservative activists with a new identity funded by Republican business elites and reinforced by a network of conservative media sources." - end quote -
Business was funding this movement and why was that? Something remarkable happened in those years.
Of course, the banks and financial institutions were pointed at because of their risky behavior and greed,
but if you believe, that something has changed fundamentally in the financial markets of today....hardly, it is business as usual.
What changed was the attitude of the people regarding politics. The politicians were blamed for the financial crisis.
They had not sufficiently supported the economy of the free market.
That is what the 20th century has brought us. Everything is expressed in economical terms. You can be as immoral as you like as a political leader,
but when you boast proudly about the thousands of jobs you have created, about the growth of the economy, everything else seems to be forgotten.
But cracks arise in free market thinking. Slowly we begin to discover, that we have to make a choice:
do we want to live in a society where a free market is a tool, which can be useful when it is applicable,
or do we want to live in a market society, where everything is for sale, not only cars and houses, but also education, healthcare or social relations?
Thank you for your attention again...
Quote was from: Perspectives on Politics, March 2011 | Vol. 9/No. 1 "The Tea Party and the Remaking of Republican Conservatism" (Vanessa Williamson, Theda Skocpol, and John Coggin)
-- https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/williamson/files/tea_party_pop_0.pdf
The Discussion
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well I prefer the fort option but it is the second one who rules at the moment
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): first
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly
[13:21] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita
[13:22] herman Bergson: And in the Netherlands things are falling apart due to this...healthcare, social care, police, teachers and education....
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same here
[13:22] herman Bergson: All subjects that are based on social solidarity and not on resources and demand
[13:24] herman Bergson: But there are signs that even economists begin to see the irrational assumptions of their theories
[13:24] herman Bergson: The self regulating effects of the markets
[13:25] herman Bergson: the never ending growth of the economy
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and when we build a hospital here all tax money is wasted onto consulting and the place is so badly built toilet water drips into the sterile room and water flows out from the bathrooms into the corridor cause they built the floors tilted the wrong direction
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its crazy
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I talk about the Karolikska Hospital
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): of course
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Karolinska
[13:25] herman Bergson: that sounds bad, Bejiita
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:26] herman Bergson: We had a few parking buildings collapsing here :-)
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): gladly there was nobody in
[13:26] herman Bergson: no....
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lucky that
[13:26] herman Bergson: it was
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they want to build cheeper and faster
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and that's a problem
[13:27] herman Bergson: And the main goal is to make as much money as possible
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes of course
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also now that hospital is getting rid of all personnel because the money is out, ta money being puured into a black hole and a huge wreck is all left
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is incompetence!
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): from politicians
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with our tax money
[13:28] herman Bergson: But what we begin to notice is that the gap between poor and rich is growing in this money world
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hospitals have to make money to service
[13:29] herman Bergson: bizarre
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well bad management a la Dilbert id say
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its just like in that series and the politicians who made the decisions are the toppy haired boss
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lot's of our ppl have to go to places were they can get free food
[13:30] herman Bergson: I find that shameful....these food banks....
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes me too
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it should not be like that
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but we need it
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:30] herman Bergson: That this has to happen here
[13:30] herman Bergson: Indeed....that is the worst part of the story...that we need these places indeed
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the cause of all this?
[13:32] herman Bergson: and the right wing politicians kling to their beliefs in markets
[13:32] herman Bergson: The cause of not being able to buy food, Beertje
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, but why do these ppl have little money?
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): some have a job, too
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the bosses take all the money and those "on the floor" get nothing next to
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats why
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the shareholders
[13:34] herman Bergson: Well one of the big causes is the government itself.....havent you heard of all these debts, people have, because of the tax bureau
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:35] herman Bergson: A lot of people are in debts...
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if you have dept, you have to pay much more the next time
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's a never ending circle
[13:36] herman Bergson: yes and the official administration is the biggest creditor (schuldeiser) in the Netherlands
[13:36] oola Neruda: Climate change is contested by the gas, oil and coal companies because of MONEY..... they want to continue being able to sell their product.... even if it is destroying our planet and the future................GREED.....SELF INTEREST.....
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes oola....this obsession with making money
[13:37] herman Bergson: growth....
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm that too, I suspect that they actually delay/shot down existing ideas that would have gotten us electric cars since long
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least I have heard many such stories
[13:37] herman Bergson: though a self sufficient economy is possible too....one without this growth
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah...i don't have gas in my house, I use Induction to cook, but the prize is based on gas and that they will raise very high to get ppl of the gas....
[13:38] oola Neruda: frankly, oil is an important part of what is going on in the Ukraine..... they have a large oil fiels that Juliani and his friends (Trump....?) want to drill the oil there
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): starting even more wars and killing even more people there as a result
[13:38] herman Bergson: Indeed oola
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:38] oola Neruda: they pressured the new president into leasing their oil fields (belong to the govt) to HIS FRIEND...FOR 50 YEARS
[13:39] herman Bergson: Like Trump boasted that he had got the oilfields in Syria occupied
[13:39] oola Neruda: at which time they will have drained the oil
[13:39] oola Neruda: yes
[13:39] oola Neruda: what is important?
[13:39] oola Neruda: MONEY
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh yes
[13:40] herman Bergson: Unfortunately we have to discover that the 20th century left us with the wrong economic theories...
[13:41] herman Bergson: and it got even worse when in 1989 the Iron Curtain fell apart......
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the greed is growing
[13:41] herman Bergson: \o/ neoliberalsim has won,, they all cheered
[13:41] oola Neruda: BLOWOUT by Rachael Maddow explains the history of oil.... and Russia has their very deep past and present in that area
[13:42] herman Bergson: Indeed oola
[13:42] herman Bergson: Must be an interesting book
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:42] oola Neruda: Mindf*cked by Wylie is another eye opener book
[13:42] oola Neruda: about Cambridge Annalytical.....
[13:42] herman Bergson: Wylie Geist?
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well the entire economy and money focus is a non stoppable blowout now it seems
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like Deepwater Horizon
[13:43] oola Neruda: Christopher Wylie
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): BAUUUUM!
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and someone have to stop this blowout
[13:43] herman Bergson: The future will tell, Bejiita
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:43] oola Neruda: they use every mind bending way of influencing people to get their outcome
[13:44] oola Neruda: basicly advertizing psychology.... but big time
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes Oola
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes, I heard amazing stories about lobbyists and how they work
[13:44] oola Neruda: and stategy of bribes to the leaders to let them get away with .....
[13:45] oola Neruda whispers: Steve
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): with what?
[13:45] herman Bergson: all for the benefit of the company, not of the people of a country
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that looked like my buggy code at the moment
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Herman
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its slavery
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): modern slavery
[13:46] oola Neruda: Steve Bammpm os behind that.... his idea for the US was to stir up every avenue of disagreement possible
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lkajl;agh[opgia..what do you mean by this Oola?
[13:46] herman Bergson: Well....I guess we are in a revolutionary mindset.....ready for the weekend,,,,^_^
[13:46] oola Neruda: stoking the neo nazies....
[13:46] oola Neruda: race relations..... evangelicals.... etc etc
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a revolution is needed for sure
[13:47] oola Neruda: poke all of them and they will 'DEFEND their ways...... Immigration is one of them
[13:47] herman Bergson: SO, I'd say....cheer up and enjoy the weekend :-)
[13:47] oola Neruda: and Trump is in on it
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed lets hope for a great weekend
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:48] herman Bergson: Un less you still want to save the world....thank you again for participating here :-)
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa cu next time
[13:48] herman Bergson: Well...you can do both of course ^_^
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:48] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): going to a event
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): baking apfelstudel in the week-end with my 2 grandsons:)
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mmm yum
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)))))
[13:48] oola Neruda: another book....... OIL..POWER....WAR
[13:48] herman Bergson: good plan Beertje
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the best:)
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have to check these
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu soon again
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): (talking like Trump)
[13:49] herman Bergson: There are published a lot of books these days in the US....
[13:49] herman Bergson: Looks like every known official or journalist writes a book about something
[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class!it is all sad, but you're all great! :-)
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