22 On Virtue Ethics

Virtue theory is the view that the foundation of morality is the development of good character traits, or virtues. A person is good, then, if he has virtues and lacks vices.

It is interesting to see that historically, virtue theory is the oldest normative tradition in Western philosophy, having its roots in ancient Greek civilization.

Aristotle is the man who in his Ethica Nicomachea gives an extensive account of what a virtue is. There he argues that moral virtues are desire-regulating character traits which are at a mean between more extreme character traits (or vices).

The virtue of courage thus is the mean between cowardice and rashness. He concludes that it is difficult to live the virtuous life primarily because it is often difficult to find the mean between the extremes.

By the late Middle Ages Aristotle's virtue theory was the definitive account of morality, especially insofar as it was endorsed by medieval philosopher Thomas Aquinas.

With the waning of the Middle Ages and the rise of the Renaissance, the Scientific Revolution, and Enlightenment thought, the influence of Aristotle's virtue ethics declined.

So it was in the time that religion lost its leading position to science, that the theory of virtue was seriously criticized in particular by a Dutch philosopher, Hugo Grotius (1583 - 1645)

He was that man, who escaped from imprisonment in a castle by hiding himself in a bookcase. He was one of the supporters of the natural law theory. Like they discovered natural laws of physics, philosophers developed ideas regarding natural laws of morality.

For Grotius, morality involves conforming one's actions to moral laws which are fixed in nature and which even God cannot change. Grotius rejects the role of virtue assigned by Aristotle, and directly criticizes Aristotle's theory on three accounts.

First, Aristotle's doctrine of the mean fails to adequately explain basic moral concepts such as truthfulness and justice. A mean of what should such concepts be?

Second, in the case of justice, the person's particular motive does not matter. All that matters is following proper reason with respect to the rights of others. We'll get to this, when I'll discuss agent-based versus action-based ethics.

Third, contrary to Aristotle, the moral person does not have special moral insight simply because he is virtuous. Instead, morality is fixed in natural laws which can be rationally perceived by all.

Here you see how the virtue theory almost disappeared in the ethical discourse, on the one hand because of this natural law idea and the power of the ratio, which can obtain insight in these natural laws.

Of course you may see here the close link with Kantian philosophy and the deontological ethics. The Categorical Imperative, as Kant called it, was known by rational insight.

And on the other hand if you give primacy to the senses instead of the ratio you look at the effects of your actions and thus arrive at utilitarianism.

Here you see the quintessential meaning of virtue ethics. It is a critique of those theories of ethics, which leave out the "agent", as the acting person in ethical theory is usually called.

I am afraid, that you already have seen it coming. Grotius had a point: in matters of justice we don't judge a person by taking into account his virtuousness. We judge a person by his actions.

In the former lecture I mentioned Robert Loudon as the writer of the article on virtue ethics in the MacMillan Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

In 1984 he published a book with the funny title "On Some Vices of Virtue Ethics". The content wasn't meant to be funny. It was one of the most systematic attacks on contemporary virtue theory.

Loudon has a long list of critiques of virtue ethics. To mention a few.: virtue theory is not designed to offer precise guidelines of obligation,

or the observation that character traits change, and unless we stay in practice, we risk losing our proficiency in these areas. This suggests a need for a more character-free way of assessing our conduct.

More serious questions are for instance : How do you determine who is virtuous? It does not help to look for some external criterion such as visible indications in the agent's action.

This all means that our next step will be an interesting one: what can be said in defense of virtue ethics. We are morally judged by our actions. Do we need virtue to decide whether something is right or bad?

How do we get to a moral judgement at all when we over-emphasize virtue? Is intention the link between virtue and action?

The big difference of approach in theories of ethics here is clear: “What is the right action?” is a significantly different question to ask from “How should I live? What kind of person should I be?” That is what it is all about.

If you have time, try to find out yourself how virtue ethics comes to a moral judgement. Next Tuesday we'll investigate what theory of ethics should prevail: agent- based or action-based theory. Or a combination maybe?


The Discussion

[13:25] herman Bergson: So much for today....
[13:25] Qwark Allen: ;-))
[13:25] herman Bergson: However, I want to add something to it.
[13:25] herman Bergson: I just stumbled on the problem
[13:26] herman Bergson: Virtue ethics leans heavily on education of character
[13:26] herman Bergson: as you know.....the chances to get a good education may depend on where you were born
[13:26] Corona Anatine: and when
[13:27] herman Bergson: And if this is the case... we get differences in character....differences in virtuousness...
[13:27] herman Bergson: Now we introduce the concept of Moral Luck
[13:28] herman Bergson: I wont say anything more about it, but you have to think about this problem
[13:28] herman Bergson: you find Moral luck as an entry in the IEP
[13:28] Corona Anatine: msiles - i see major problems in diff between agnet and action based
[13:28] herman Bergson: Thomas Nagel has a very clear theory about it
[13:28] Repose Lionheart: virtue results from "education" understood broadly, right?
[13:28] Corona Anatine: no
[13:28] herman Bergson: yes
[13:28] Corona Anatine: disaggree
[13:29] Repose Lionheart: but, yes, "moral luck"
[13:29] herman Bergson: not just school, but also by learning from rolemodels etc
[13:29] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:29] Repose Lionheart: life
[13:29] Corona Anatine: not viable at least not fully
[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes..it is about life long learning
[13:29] Corona Anatine: because oftewn
[13:29] Corona Anatine: children rebel agiant parental values
[13:30] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:30] Corona Anatine: so a child of veggies might take up meat eating
[13:30] oola Neruda: what about the changes in society... what was expected when i was young has changed with the women's movement and other social evolution
[13:30] Repose Lionheart: i've wondered about the Achilles' Heel of philosophers
[13:31] oola Neruda: even in one person ... it gets confusing... let alone a society/culture
[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes oola , a good point
[13:31] Repose Lionheart: they seek greater clarity
[13:31] Repose Lionheart: as much clarity as possible
[13:31] Repose Lionheart: Loudon may be seeking too much
[13:31] Repose Lionheart: only as much clarity as can be achieved can be achieved
[13:32] Corona Anatine: the agent / action thing is problematic because it is possible to envisage a nazi who is kind to chidren
[13:32] herman Bergson: AVirtue ethics began as a protest against ethical theories that claimed that you can explain morality by usinfg one principle... rules
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Corona....
[13:32] Corona Anatine: yes because rules have to have something to measure
[13:33] Corona Anatine: it is more like aglebra than arithmetic
[13:33] herman Bergson: That is in fact a kind of comment Loudon gave too....
[13:33] Repose Lionheart: oh
[13:33] herman Bergson: are virtues remaining and stable qualities of the person or can they disappear?
[13:34] Corona Anatine: are the personality aspects of anyone unchanging
[13:34] herman Bergson: Rules tell us what to do, independent of our character…
[13:34] herman Bergson: that makes rule based theories so attractive
[13:34] Corona Anatine: yes but the rules come from where?
[13:34] Corona Anatine: peoples virtue
[13:34] Corona Anatine: so
[13:35] herman Bergson: Virtue ethics doesnt primarily look at specific cases...it looks at life itself
[13:35] Corona Anatine: vitrue makes for virtue
[13:35] Corona Anatine: it is a large circle
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Corona....rules come from where....That is why the rule based theories got criticized
[13:36] herman Bergson: The idea of a transcendental Lawgiver is not acceptable anymore as an explanation or justification
[13:36] herman Bergson: That doubt about that Lawgiver started already around 160
[13:36] herman Bergson: 1600
[13:36] Corona Anatine: and even if such an entity is accepted it is impossible to know if they are virtuous
[13:37] herman Bergson: In fact, virtue ethics goes back to the old Greek ideals
[13:37] Adriana Jinn: yes
[13:37] Repose Lionheart: yes, god is does not necessarily lead to god is good
[13:37] Gemma Cleanslate: has a good basis then
[13:37] Corona Anatine: would it be any better to define what is unvirtuous
[13:38] Repose Lionheart: 2 sides of same coin, maybe
[13:38] herman Bergson: I dont see the difference in defining A or not-A
[13:38] Corona Anatine: which brings in context
[13:38] herman Bergson: they imply each other
[13:39] herman Bergson: One important characteristic of virtue ethics is that it doesnt claim to be one monolithic theory of ethics
[13:40] Corona Anatine: an agent if defined as virtuous by their actions
[13:40] Repose Lionheart: we know something of virtue -- in a way, psychology is a "science" of moral management
[13:40] herman Bergson: moral action is situation-related for instance...
[13:40] Repose Lionheart: but not a "heard" science
[13:40] Repose Lionheart: hard
[13:40] Corona Anatine: or more particular the end results of actions
[13:40] herman Bergson: that means that indeed that ethics is not science
[13:41] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:41] Paula Dix: btw, why psychology isnt a science? I dont understand that
[13:41] herman Bergson: Nor is it an absolute theory, like a rule based theory can be
[13:41] Corona Anatine: because to be a science the experimental results have to be reproducible
[13:41] herman Bergson: Psychology is a science....
[13:42] Repose Lionheart: it has scientific aspects...
[13:42] Corona Anatine: and can that be said of ethics?
[13:42] herman Bergson: well...so it is accepted
[13:42] herman Bergson: but it is a statistical science....
[13:42] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:42] Paula Dix: i see
[13:42] herman Bergson: in fact close the ethical theory in that respect...
[13:42] Paula Dix: yes, statistical, i thought that :))))
[13:42] Adriana Jinn: yes
[13:42] Corona Anatine: hmm statistical ethics
[13:42] herman Bergson: unable to come with laws of nature like statements about the human being
[13:42] Corona Anatine: a wonderful term
[13:43] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:43] Paula Dix: lol corona, interesting
[13:43] Adriana Jinn: indeed
[13:43] herman Bergson: you were to quick with your observation Corona
[13:43] herman Bergson: Ethics isnt a statistical science
[13:44] Paula Dix: yes i can see where psychology and ethics are related, very interesting
[13:44] herman Bergson: Ethics is about our judgements of right and wrong
[13:44] Corona Anatine: yes
[13:45] herman Bergson: Although we have empirical material...the moral action , statistics do not apply....
[13:45] herman Bergson: However!
[13:45] Corona Anatine: then it could easily be said that ethics is as fluid as language
[13:45] Paula Dix: yes, ethics itself isnt statistical, but to apply statistics to it surely would give interesting results
[13:45] herman Bergson: Just do a search on MORAL PSYCHOLOGY
[13:45] Repose Lionheart: oh
[13:45] herman Bergson: There is a lot of research on moral behavior....
[13:46] herman Bergson: Remember the Milgram experiments I mentioned before!
[13:46] Corona Anatine: at any momen of time a language works in and of itself
[13:46] Repose Lionheart: 1,620,000 results on Google
[13:46] herman Bergson: WOW
[13:46] Corona Anatine: but over time it becomes incomprehensible
[13:46] Repose Lionheart: yes!
[13:46] herman Bergson: This proofs that ethics IS a subject of psychological research
[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: OH YES
[13:47] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:47] herman Bergson: However, you first have to define what your theory of ethics is before you can do the research
[13:47] Adriana Jinn: certainly
[13:47] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:47] Corona Anatine: one way perhaps would be to study how other social species interact
[13:47] herman Bergson: and here we are again at the beginning of thinking: philosophy
[13:48] Corona Anatine: [thinking mainly of vertebartes here not bees etc]
[13:48] herman Bergson: It may be interesting to investigate whether psychological research assumes deontological or consequentialist concepts
[13:49] herman Bergson: Or does it investigate character, personality traits related to moral actions and judgements
[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: will have to watch
[13:49] Repose Lionheart: hmmm...
[13:49] herman Bergson: Always interesting when you read about such research
[13:49] herman Bergson: Milgram tested obedience
[13:50] herman Bergson: in fact he tested how strong the deontological ethics of a person was
[13:50] Adriana Jinn: interesting but not easy because many theories
[13:50] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:50] herman Bergson: You ought to obey (authority/ rules of the game etc)
[13:51] Corona Anatine: [as an aside -doesnt dawkins god delusion mention some research that was done into morality]
[13:51] herman Bergson: Well....the present landscape of ethical theories is covered by the distinction deontological/consequentialist/virtuous theories
[13:52] herman Bergson: Your task is to think for yourself, where you stand and why
[13:52] Gemma Cleanslate: good question
[13:52] herman Bergson: May I give you this assignment for the weekend ? ^_^
[13:52] Gemma Cleanslate: ohoh
[13:53] Repose Lionheart: hehe
[13:53] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!
[13:53] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:53] Corona Anatine: smiles -not heard those words since i was at uin
[13:53] Qwark Allen: ok
[13:53] Corona Anatine: UNi
[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes Corona I am a little old fashioned
[13:53] Paula Dix: lol good to prepare me for next semester starting in 15 days :)))
[13:53] Gemma Cleanslate: lolol
[13:53] Repose Lionheart: not at all, Prof
[13:53] Corona Anatine: old ways are the best sometimes
[13:54] Gemma Cleanslate: hurry we have to go lol
[13:54] Qwark Allen: eheheheh
[13:54] herman Bergson smiles
[13:54] Qwark Allen: l ☺☺☺ l
[13:54] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:54] herman Bergson: We covered a lot of ground today....
[13:54] Corona Anatine: one thougth comes to me
[13:54] Qwark Allen: indeed
[13:54] herman Bergson: Next lecture will be on the defense of Virtue ethics
[13:55] Corona Anatine: before we can define virtuous dont we have to define how such can be measured - what is a theft or a lie
[13:55] herman Bergson: So I think it is a good moment to dismiss class unless you still have questions left
[13:55] Gemma Cleanslate: what is the assignment
[13:55] Gemma Cleanslate: lol
[13:55] Gemma Cleanslate: defense??
[13:55] herman Bergson: the assingment is multiple...
[13:56] herman Bergson: check out moral luck
[13:56] Repose Lionheart: ok
[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: lol
[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: ok
[13:56] herman Bergson: check out where you stand
[13:56] herman Bergson: check out what is virtue
[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: right here lol
[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: ok
[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye
[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: all see you tuesday
[13:56] Corona Anatine: did you mean to write moral luck or did you mean moral lack
[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: bye bye Gemma :-))
[13:56] Paula Dix: bye!
[13:56] Adriana Jinn: bye bye
[13:57] Gemma Cleanslate: you can come to the party
[13:57] herman Bergson: and Yes corona....one of the critiques of virtue ethics is: how to measure virtuousness...That was what Loudon already said
[13:57] Corona Anatine: ah ok
[13:57] Repose Lionheart: Luck, i think
[13:57] Gemma Cleanslate: ok how to measure
[13:57] Repose Lionheart: 1,600,00 entries on google
[13:57] Corona Anatine: to be read by tuesday ?
[13:57] herman Bergson: for moral luck, Repose?
[13:57] Repose Lionheart: yes, prof
[13:58] herman Bergson: did you an advanced search....
[13:58] Repose Lionheart: nope
[13:58] herman Bergson: otherwise it hits on luck and on moral equally
[13:58] Repose Lionheart: hmmm...
[13:58] Repose Lionheart: sec
[13:58] herman Bergson: if you do an advanced search it takes the both words as one search key
[13:58] Paula Dix: i guess if you use "" also
[13:59] Repose Lionheart: sorry, 1.600,00 was for moral psychology
[13:59] herman Bergson: in a normal search it takes moral luck, luck and moral as three keys
[13:59] Repose Lionheart: fewer than 200,00 of "moral luck"
[13:59] Repose Lionheart: for
[13:59] herman Bergson: very good repose!
[13:59] Corona Anatine: thinking of virtues /morality
[13:59] Repose Lionheart: put "moral luck" in quotes
[13:59] Repose Lionheart: holds the two words together
[14:00] Corona Anatine: i saw a u tube thing a while ago about south american amazon rtribes
[14:00] Repose Lionheart: oh
[14:00] herman Bergson: Google has an option called advanced search
[14:00] Repose Lionheart: hmmm...will check it out
[14:00] Corona Anatine: in which children are buried alive for the good of the tribes survival
[14:01] Corona Anatine: thast would make for an interesting moral choice
[14:01] herman Bergson: which may be effective indeed: one mouth less to fill
[14:01] Corona Anatine: cant be an esy thing to do tho
[14:01] Repose Lionheart: that should have been 200,000 and 1,600,000 above
[14:01] Repose Lionheart: that
[14:02] Repose Lionheart: buried alive
[14:02] Paula Dix: corona i saw that recently too
[14:02] Repose Lionheart: shudder
[14:02] herman Bergson: I gathered that already
[14:02] Paula Dix: a helper who took a girl who was buried for having some defect
[14:02] Paula Dix: and took her home
[14:02] Repose Lionheart: oh
[14:02] herman Bergson: The romans acted similar....
[14:02] Repose Lionheart: was the helper a member of the tribe?
[14:02] Corona Anatine: it highlights the shifting nature of morality
[14:03] Paula Dix: its totally horrible, they just bury the children alive!
[14:03] Paula Dix: no, helper from city
[14:03] Repose Lionheart: oh
[14:03] herman Bergson: Creepy idea.....
[14:03] Repose Lionheart: yes
[14:04] Paula Dix: could at least kill person first, in a more human way
[14:04] Corona Anatine: inded given they have good poisons
[14:04] Paula Dix: romans also didnt kill, right? just put children there to die?
[14:04] Repose Lionheart: and the Spartans
[14:04] Corona Anatine: but it is their morality
[14:04] herman Bergson: Yes Paula... something like that
[14:04] Repose Lionheart: yeah
[14:04] Paula Dix: funny how to them that probably made it morally right
[14:05] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ...... ich must go:-( .....................thanks, for the interesting lection mr. professor :-) see to YOU all tuesday
[14:05] Corona Anatine: Romans did not see babies as children until about a month old
[14:05] Paula Dix: it wasnt them killing, was gods or something
[14:05] Repose Lionheart: bye, bergfrau
[14:05] herman Bergson: yes... but that is why you have to look at moral issues situation - related
[14:05] Paula Dix: bye berg!
[14:05] herman Bergson: Bye Bergie
[14:05] herman Bergson: Thaank you all for your participation
[14:05] Adriana Jinn: bye and thanks a lot
[14:06] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye herman,paula,oola,repose, adriana and corona :-)
[14:06] Repose Lionheart: Thank you, Professor
[14:06] Corona Anatine: ty Herman - interesting dicussion
[14:06] oola Neruda: baieee
[14:06] Adriana Jinn: bye all
[14:06] Paula Dix: just to add, that helper had a ton of problems because what she did, but is proud of doing it :)
[14:06] oola Neruda: baieeeee
[14:06] Repose Lionheart: oh
[14:06] Corona Anatine: bfn

18: Virtue Ethis, an introduction

Virtue ethics is currently one of three major approaches in normative ethics. It emphasizes the virtues, or moral character, in contrast to the approach which emphasizes duties or rules (deontology) or that which emphasizes the consequences of actions (consequentialism).

When the physician of the village is in great need the utilitarian would feel morally obliged to help him, if it were only for the consequence that the village will keep its physician, which contributes to the well being of everyone.

The deontologist would say "Do unto others as you would be done by" and uses that as his moral maxime to guide his actions and do good.

The virtue ethicist would regard it as a quintessential feature of being human, that you are charitable or benevolent and kind towards the other in need. It was already Aristotle who formulated these thoughts perfectly in his "Ethica Nicomachea" about 330 B.C.!

- begin quote
However, to say that happiness is the chief good seems a platitude, and a clearer account of it is desired. This might perhaps be given, if we could first ascertain the function of man.

For just as for a flute-player, a sculptor, or an artist, the good is thought to reside in the function, so would it seem to be for man, if he has a function. Have the carpenter, then, and the tanner certain functions, and has man none? Is he born without a function?

Or as eye, hand, foot, and in general each of the parts evidently has a function, may one lay it down that man similarly has a function apart from all these? What then can this be?

Life seems to be common even to plants, but we are seeking what is peculiar to man. Next would be a life of perception, but it also seems to be common even to the horse and every animal.

There remains, then, an active life of the element that has a rational principle. Now if the function of man is an activity of soul which follows or implies a rational principle, and we state the function of man to be a certain kind of life, and the function of a good man to be the good and noble performance of this,

and if any action is well performed when it is performed in accordance with the appropriate excellence: if this is the case, human good turns out to be activity of soul in accordance with virtue, and if there is more than one virtue, in accordance with the best and most complete.
- end quote

It is historically interesting to see, that during the nineteenth century Aristotle's words were overshadowed by men like Kant with his deontic approach of ethics and in the Anglo-American philosophy by Bentham and Stuart Mill with their utilitarianism.

In our project on Women Philosophers we met Margret Anscombe. In 1958 she published the article "Modern Moral Philosophy", which lead to an increasing dissatisfaction with the forms of deontology and utilitarianism .

To quote from the Stanford Encyclopedia: "Neither of them, at that time, paid attention to a number of topics that had always figured in the virtue ethics' tradition

— the virtues themselves, motives and moral character, moral education, moral wisdom or discernment, friendship and family relationships, a deep concept of happiness,

the role of the emotions in our moral life and the fundamentally important questions of what sort of person I should be and how we should live."

And although I read this only today for the first time, you may recognize in this quote my increasing dissatisfaction with consequentialism,

my repeated remark, that I was missing something. And I think , that it was this that I was missing. This doesn't mean we have found the golden egg.

We still have to deal with serious questions like:
1. are the virtues natural or acquired?
2. are the virtues reliable?
3. what makes the virtues valuable? Are they instrumentally or intrinsically valuable?


The Discussion

[13:22] Myriam Brianna: (damn, gotta go already)
[13:22] herman Bergson: sorry for the confusion..I hope you still could understand me..
[13:22] Repose Lionheart: :(
[13:23] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:23] Paula Dix: lol yes
[13:23] Abraxas Nagy: I do
[13:23] Justine Rhapsody: yes
[13:23] Corona Anatine: for 1 i would say - surely like all human charactristics - a bit of both
[13:23] herman Bergson: ok.. so much for an introduction of this subject
[13:23] Repose Lionheart: great stuff
[13:24] herman Bergson: not consequences but virtue are now our focus
[13:24] Alarice Beaumont: think so
[13:24] Corona Anatine: ??
[13:24] herman Bergson: What astonishes me are the words of Aristotle
[13:24] Corona Anatine: vitrue without context?
[13:25] Repose Lionheart: virtue becomes primary, but consequences are not denied, right?
[13:25] herman Bergson: A man who lived in a completely different time..no information technology, no easy access libraries...only his brilliant mind
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: i wonder how he would state it if he weer alive today
[13:25] herman Bergson: of course not Repose...
[13:25] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:25] Repose Lionheart: right
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...That would be something
[13:26] herman Bergson: Well..we still have to find out what virtue is...
[13:26] herman Bergson: one interesting question to begin with...
[13:26] herman Bergson: is it innate or acquired...
[13:27] herman Bergson: so is it nature or nurture...!
[13:27] herman Bergson: and here is the next step to link up with biology and ethology I think
[13:27] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:27] herman Bergson: Darwin awakes again
[13:28] Abraxas Nagy: its aquired
[13:28] herman Bergson: ok..thnx Abraxeas
[13:28] Abraxas Nagy: :D
[13:28] Corona Anatine: i would disagree in part
[13:28] herman Bergson: Well...just kidding
[13:28] Paula Dix: lol
[13:28] Repose Lionheart: hehe
[13:28] Corona Anatine: acquiring requires that the acquiring is possible
[13:28] herman Bergson: First we have to get a clear idea of what virtue is
[13:29] Abraxas Nagy: ah... isnt it a concept?
[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Corona…there has to be a fertile soil...
[13:29] herman Bergson: A concept...I would say..it is not an abstraction…
[13:29] herman Bergson: it IS observable behavior
[13:30] Alarice Beaumont: virtues are defined by the society... groups of people
[13:30] Alarice Beaumont: and they must be accepted by the majority
[13:30] Abraxas Nagy: right
[13:30] herman Bergson: There is the behavioral component.....
[13:30] herman Bergson: Socially accepted behavior
[13:30] Repose Lionheart: maybe biological too
[13:30] herman Bergson: YEs repose...
[13:30] Alarice Beaumont: yes.. sounds good
[13:31] herman Bergson: that leads to the question of universality
[13:31] Abraxas Nagy: but doesnt that vary from culture to culture?
[13:31] Corona Anatine: it has to be so- as all consider themselves virtuous - it is for others to decide if that is true
[13:31] Alarice Beaumont: yes.. it varies... depending on culture
[13:31] Alarice Beaumont: notuniversal
[13:31] herman Bergson: Well...there is something coming up in my mind all the time...
[13:31] herman Bergson: about immoral behavior...
[13:31] Alarice Beaumont: that's why so different groups are spreading over the world
[13:32] Paula Dix: i guess the biological thing would be universal?
[13:32] herman Bergson: let me give you the story...
[13:32] herman Bergson: yes paula I would assume that
[13:32] herman Bergson: but the story...
[13:32] herman Bergson: in war...
[13:32] herman Bergson: a village is taken by the enemy...
[13:33] herman Bergson: all men are killed and all women are raped by the conquerer...
[13:33] herman Bergson: how to understand this behavior
[13:33] herman Bergson: we would say...war crime...
[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: happened over and over and still does
[13:33] Alarice Beaumont: i think power andhumiliation
[13:33] herman Bergson: senseless murdering and raping..
[13:33] herman Bergson: but someone gave this explanation..
[13:34] herman Bergson: this behavior is very basic....
[13:34] herman Bergson: you kill the men...so stop procreation of that tribe
[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:34] Abraxas Nagy: right
[13:34] herman Bergson: and rape all women to bring in your genes in that tribe
[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: going on in where ?? congo now???
[13:34] Abraxas Nagy: nowadays yes
[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: or next country
[13:34] Repose Lionheart: biological imperative then...
[13:34] herman Bergson: this is almost universal behavior
[13:35] Corona Anatine: your overlooking one item of fact - in early times it was not the women who were raped it was everyone
[13:35] Corona Anatine: it was a humiliation thing
[13:35] Alarice Beaumont: yes you are right Herman... unfortunately
[13:35] Paula Dix: lions do that also
[13:35] Repose Lionheart: yes, Corona
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: still corona
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: it is definitely a power thing
[13:35] herman Bergson: The men may be raped too Corona, but then killed I guess
[13:35] Corona Anatine: definitly
[13:35] Abraxas Nagy: exactly
[13:36] Repose Lionheart: hehe
[13:36] Repose Lionheart: yeah
[13:36] Corona Anatine: if you reread bible
[13:36] Repose Lionheart: that was a grim laugh
[13:36] Corona Anatine: it was women killed too
[13:36] herman Bergson: I was flabbergasted by this explanation especially while it sounded so obvious
[13:36] Corona Anatine: only preteens were spared
[13:36] Gemma Cleanslate: or left to bear a child who was not the pure tribe
[13:36] Paula Dix: yes scary!
[13:37] Repose Lionheart: cooperation, kindness and love have evolved in us too
[13:37] Gemma Cleanslate: yes of course
[13:37] herman Bergson: what I want to say is that related to virtue ethics our basic ethical drives could be innate
[13:37] Gemma Cleanslate: hmmmm
[13:37] Repose Lionheart: oh, yes
[13:37] Corona Anatine: has this not be shown to be the case?
[13:37] herman Bergson: like our bad habits are to...like greed and selfishness
[13:38] Repose Lionheart: in that case, some may be more evolved than others
[13:38] Repose Lionheart: evolved
[13:38] herman Bergson: that is not abnormal...
[13:38] herman Bergson: some are more intelligent than others..
[13:38] Paula Dix: very interesting Herman!
[13:38] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:38] herman Bergson: maybe you know the Gauss graph
[13:38] Paula Dix: no
[13:38] Abraxas Nagy: yep
[13:38] Corona Anatine: yes
[13:38] Repose Lionheart: no
[13:39] Corona Anatine: also called a normal graph
[13:39] herman Bergson: When you test human abilities...doesnt matter what..also physical features you get as a graph of the score a Gauss graph
[13:39] Alarice Beaumont: yes
[13:40] herman Bergson: in simple terms...
[13:40] Alarice Beaumont: most are in the middle
[13:40] herman Bergson: only a few are really stupid...the majority is average and only a few are really clever
[13:40] Repose Lionheart: oh, right
[13:40] Repose Lionheart: got it
[13:41] herman Bergson: I'll bring a picture with me next time
[13:41] Abraxas Nagy: the bell shape graph
[13:41] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:41] Corona Anatine: yeh
[13:41] herman Bergson: so maybe this also applies to virtues
[13:41] Paula Dix: oh, i get it now
[13:41] herman Bergson: if they are innate for instance
[13:41] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:42] herman Bergson: in other words...it is not surprising that we have criminals in our society...
[13:42] Corona Anatine: before you build a bell curve of virtue you would first have to assign them numerical values
[13:42] Alarice Beaumont: mm.. how do you mean it applies to virtues?
[13:42] herman Bergson: nor Nobel prize Winners for science
[13:43] herman Bergson: Well Alarice..a virtue like courage is a personal trait..like benevolence is
[13:43] herman Bergson: as are vices like selfishness and sadism
[13:43] Paula Dix: i see, some no virtuous at all, most average, some very virtuous
[13:43] Repose Lionheart: and there would be a moral average (to which politicians appeal)
[13:43] herman Bergson: yes Paula...
[13:43] herman Bergson: Good point Repose
[13:44] Paula Dix: and that would apply to every conceivable virtue
[13:44] herman Bergson: I would say so yes
[13:44] herman Bergson: on the other hand...if we look at the nature / nurture debate...
[13:45] Repose Lionheart: allows for a social ethic, policy creation and an attention to outcomes...
[13:45] Paula Dix: lol yes, you would "distort" the curve with culture
[13:45] herman Bergson: Even Aristotle knew that virtue is also a product of education]
[13:45] Repose Lionheart: blends duty and consequence
[13:45] herman Bergson: Like Corona already remarked
[13:45] herman Bergson: there has to be the seed...education grows the plant
[13:46] Corona Anatine: tho to make another analogy it is like a vessel being filled with water
[13:46] Corona Anatine: which allows for the vesel to be of differing shape
[13:47] herman Bergson: yes Corona..
[13:47] Paula Dix: interesting idea Corona
[13:47] Corona Anatine: the vessel being the socail structure
[1[13:47] herman Bergson: like the Gaussian Curve shows
[[13:47] Repose Lionheart: agree, Corona
[13:48] Corona Anatine: so perhaps an idea of virtue is innate
[13:48] Corona Anatine: but what is seen as vitruous varies
[13:48] herman Bergson: This discussion is a wonderful prelude of the three final lectures of this project
[13:48] Paula Dix: and we would have all trends of virtue around on every society
[13:48] herman Bergson: in the next lecture we will dig into the concept of virtue
[13:48] Paula Dix: only some being enhanced and others not
[13:48] Corona Anatine: which often conflict paula
[13:49] Paula Dix: yes :)
[13:49] herman Bergson: then in the next we'll put it in the social context by loking at the ethics of pragmatism
[13:49] Repose Lionheart: good ㋡
[13:49] herman Bergson: and finally I'd like to investigate the bounderies of ethics and biology/ethology
[13:50] Corona Anatine: would that be a partical demonstration : )
[13:50] Paula Dix: :)))
[13:50] herman Bergson: and thus we have come far from our startingpoint: moral relativism
[13:50] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:50] Paula Dix: now it starts to make sense :)
[13:51] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:51] herman Bergson: yes Paula..that was what I said to myself too ^_^
[13:51] Paula Dix: lol
[13:51] Gemma Cleanslate: LOL
[13:51] Qwark Allen: loool
[13:51] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:51] herman Bergson: So class dismissed ..time to celebrate
[13:52] Abraxas Nagy: ty herman
[13:52] Repose Lionheart: Thank you, Professor
[13:52] Corona Anatine: ty Herman
[13:52] Paula Dix: yay!
[13:52] Justine Rhapsody: thank you Professor
[13:52] Abraxas Nagy: yay
[13:52] Corona Anatine: will it be a virtuous celebration or an immoral one
[13:52] herman Bergson: I prefer the virtuously immoral one, Corona
[13:53] Corona Anatine: lol
[13:53] Repose Lionheart: hehe
[13:53] Paula Dix: lol
[13:53] Corona Anatine: hmm virtuous immorality
[13:53] Repose Lionheart: there's a wonderful concept
[13:53] Abraxas Nagy: are we gonna party Qwark?
[13:53] Repose Lionheart: find in believe in it
[13:53] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:53] Alarice Beaumont: lol
[13:53] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:53] Qwark Allen: ehehehe
[13:53] Repose Lionheart: i
[13:53] Abraxas Nagy: w0oh0o!
[13:53] Qwark Allen: at relaxation
[13:53] Corona Anatine: doing immoral actions for virtuous reasons
[13:53] Qwark Allen: ;-)))
[13:53] Abraxas Nagy: :D
[13:53] Gemma Cleanslate: lol
[13:53] Qwark Allen: now that you talk about it
[13:54] Qwark Allen: need to get ready
[13:54] Qwark Allen: loool
[13:54] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:54] Corona Anatine: sounds good to me