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Evolution created emotions as means to improve the chances on survival and procreation. Here we focus on the evolutionary development of emotions.As the philosophical and scientific literature shows, we can discuss forever about the classification of emotionsDaniel Goleman, psychologist and writer of the book on the social IQ once had a talk with the Dalai Lama and learnt that buddhism recognized tenthousands of destructive emotions.I think we better stick to a more simple classification as formulated by Paul Ekman(1934 -…), psychologist.Against the view of many anthropologists, including Margaret Mead, Ekman found that facial expressions of emotion are not culturally specific, but identical for different cultures. This fact advocated the idea that facial expressions, as Darwin once asserted, are biologically determined.A generally accepted classification is: basic emotions and complex emotion.The complex emotions are more culturally driven and therefor evolutionary more recent.An emotion like envy, for instance, you can't have on your own. There must be someone else to be envious of, while fear and joy can be individually experienced.We'll follow the classification of Ekman and regard fear, joy, grief, anger, marvel and disgust as basic emotions. They come with the facial expressions, which showed to be universal.At New Year we often wish each other a good health for the coming year, but is that our ultimate goal of happiness?When you think it over, it becomes clear that we mainly want to be healthy because then we are closer to happiness and to knowing joy in life.So, joy and happiness are more likely our ultimate goals than health. In the "Declaration of Independence " of the USA it is stated literally that we are endowed "with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."This is an interesting statement, for to see the pursuit of happiness as a human right, implies at least that it makes sense to pursue happiness.Does it also promise us, that when we pursue happiness, we also will achieve it? Do we believe that today? If so, where does this idea come from, because a lot of people still believe that real happiness will only be found in the afterlife.It was during the Enlightenment in the 17th and 18th century, that the Idea emerged that a human being can achieve happiness in THIS earthly life.Happiness now was called the normal condition of man, not a gift of God or a twist of fate, but something that man is entitled to by nature, something, which could be achieved by everyone.Joy and happiness can be regarded as the most positive emotions and yet there is little scientific literature about them.One reason is of course, that the concept of happiness is pretty vague and no one has as yet found a satisfactory definition for joy and happiness.Let's not wind up in an endless debate about the definition of happiness and joy for the moment, but listen to a philosopher of the enlightenment, John Locke (1632 -1704).Some of you may think, ok…. joy is indeed an emotion, but happiness is more a state of being. True, joy is more a part of happiness.According to Locke happiness consisted of a combination of joys. But what combination of how many joys? At least Locke is right, that experiencing joy, increases the chance to feel happy.Next lecture we'll go into detail and explain how evolution wired our brain with the possibility to experience joy and happiness and what it means evolutionary, that happiness is our goal in life.The Discussion[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you...and be happy ^_^[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:22] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)[13:22] Doodus Moose: a baby smiles when you give it attention - is that joy or programming?[13:23] herman Bergson: THAT is a real special thing doodus...[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): heard that question before...[13:23] herman Bergson: It shows that joy is innate...[13:23] BALDUR Joubert: facial expression.... inborn[13:23] herman Bergson: indeed Baldur...[13:23] Doodus Moose: perhaps a part of innocence?[13:23] herman Bergson: I dont see the connection Doodus[13:24] BALDUR Joubert: lol joy -happinesss and now innocense?[13:24] Mick Nerido: Is laughter Joy or happiness?[13:24] herman Bergson: innocence is a pretty religious concept[13:24] BALDUR Joubert: we will get lost in words...[13:24] herman Bergson: Laughter is joy Mick[13:24] Doodus Moose: innocence as opposed to the complexities we learn[13:24] Doodus Moose: sarcasm, pity, etc[13:24] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)[13:24] Bejiita Imako: now i feel a sudden joy[13:25] herman Bergson: I think you should keep in mind the disticntion between basic and complex emotions[13:25] Bejiita Imako: cause LHC have broken a NEW WORLD RECORD[13:25] BALDUR Joubert: a child ripping of the legs of a spider..sarcasm or innocense?[13:25] Bejiita Imako: highest power ever now [13:25] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:25] herman Bergson: what you are refering to Doodus are complex emotions...social feelings[13:25] Mick Nerido: People laugh differently so do they experience joy differently?[13:26] Blackrose Baroque: [13:24] BALDUR Joubert: a child ripping of the legs of a spider..sarcasm or innocnese? how can you find any joy or hapiness in this?[13:26] BALDUR Joubert: a child could...[13:26] herman Bergson: It is even more complex Mick....some people shed tears while they are infact absolutely happy[13:26] Mick Nerido: tears of joy[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ah yes that can also be a reaction[13:27] Doodus Moose: that was my father as he experienced music - his only demonstrated emotion[13:27] Blackrose Baroque: yes my mommy always cries when she is so happy[13:27] Bejiita Imako: i've experienced that too[13:27] Mick Nerido: Me also[13:27] herman Bergson: Interesting point Doodus..I'll get to that in the next lecture[13:27] Bejiita Imako: you laugh and cry at same time[13:27] Bejiita Imako: really overwhelming feeling[13:28] Mick Nerido: Laughter is involentary but we laugh at differn things at different timmes in our lives does joy evolve?[13:29] herman Bergson: You can write a book about laughter..[13:29] herman Bergson: Aristotle did...[13:30] herman Bergson: and in The name of the Rose by Umberto Ecco it ended up in the destruction of a monestery by fire...^_^[13:30] Bejiita Imako: I laugh a lot cause feels really nice[13:30] Bejiita Imako: and when i feel really good i can let it go until i rol on the floor laughing[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: aristoteles did' ? didn't it but in the name of the rose:)?[13:30] Bejiita Imako: really nice feeling[13:30] Mick Nerido: Not copies left?[13:31] Bejiita Imako: happens kind of often when i'm here in sl[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:31] BALDUR Joubert: sena connery couldn't save it......lol[13:31] herman Bergson: No he couldnt Baldur :-(([13:31] BALDUR Joubert: laughter lost for us.......[13:32] herman Bergson: By the way..watched La guerre du feu last night Baldur...[13:32] herman Bergson: but that among us[13:32] herman Bergson: ok...[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: smile ok we'll talk that over one day:)[13:32] herman Bergson: what it is all about ia how joy and happiness are wired in the brain by evolution...[13:33] Doodus Moose: perhaps building on reward and avoidance (hippocampus)?[13:33] herman Bergson: next lecture I'll give you the evolutionary picture...[13:33] BALDUR Joubert: help....[13:34] Bejiita Imako: oki[13:34] herman Bergson: Is there a doctor in the room...Baldur is calling for help!!![13:34] BALDUR Joubert: please make a clear distinction between evolution and development of brain[13:34] Mick Nerido: Why did it say presuit of rather than the attainment of happiness?[13:34] herman Bergson: oh yes Baldur...[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: one genetics the other physical...[13:34] Doodus Moose: a pursuit does not guarantee attainment[13:35] herman Bergson: No Doodus...[13:35] herman Bergson: that is the mystery of happiness…[13:35] Mick Nerido: it could have been written the right to happiness[13:35] herman Bergson: are you happy.....??? they alway yell...and the public answers YYYEEEAAAAHHHH[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: happiness is in the pursuit say some wise men:)[13:36] Doodus Moose: :-)[13:36] herman Bergson: I read a book about the history of happiness...the idea of happiness to be exact...[13:36] herman Bergson: and after reading the book I wasn't happy at all..kind of disappointed actually ^_^[13:37] Mick Nerido: No happy ending[13:37] herman Bergson: 450 pages for no happiness :-)[13:37] BALDUR Joubert: gone with the wind lol[13:37] herman Bergson: no happy ending indeed Mick :-)[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:38] Mick Nerido: I bet the author was happy when he finished the book[13:38] Bejiita Imako: that sound not good, if its about happiness it should make u happy at least[13:38] Blackrose Baroque: lol Mick[13:38] herman Bergson: lol I guess he was...[13:38] Bejiita Imako: haha[13:38] Anja Tigerfish: Hihihi[13:39] herman Bergson: Well..let's wait till next lecture...maybe afterwards you might feel a little happier then[13:39] herman Bergson: So..thank you all for your participation...[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: just one more question..[13:39] herman Bergson: See you next Thursday in our search for happiness...:-)[13:40] herman Bergson: Sure Baldur go ahead[13:40] Bejiita Imako: sounds nice Herman ㋡[13:40] BALDUR Joubert: you talked about cutural and ..wait....[13:40] herman Bergson: I wait...:-)[13:41] BALDUR Joubert: sorry, lol i ave to scroll back..[13:41] herman Bergson: we all wait ^_^ ...[13:41] BALDUR Joubert: basic..lol..[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:41] herman Bergson: yes basic and complex emotions...[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: basic ..what do you mean with basic in contrast to cultural...[13:42] Blackrose Baroque: dripping icecream on my skirt..[13:42] herman Bergson: Blackrose..plz!!! Watch out[13:42] herman Bergson: Well...[13:42] Blackrose Baroque: sorry sir:)[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: someone give blackrose a kleenex?[13:42] herman Bergson: important point Baldur...[13:42] Bejiita Imako: heheh[13:43] Bejiita Imako: u should eat it BEFORE it melts then[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:43] Blackrose Baroque: ow..yes?[13:43] Bejiita Imako: but thats tricky and u dont wanna rush something tasty[13:43] herman Bergson: The basic idea about emotions in an evolutionary sense is that they helped us to survive and procreate..[13:43] Blackrose Baroque: this is my happiness now..my icecream[13:43] BALDUR Joubert: ok.. survival codes[13:43] herman Bergson: yes...[13:43] Bejiita Imako: which also use to leave my clothes in a mess afterwards, at least if its a warm day[13:43] Bejiita Imako: heh[13:44] Doodus Moose: hence the line from the movie "what do i see in him - he makes me laugh".[13:44] BALDUR Joubert: especially in social groups[13:44] herman Bergson: emotions were the mechanisms that made social behavior possible...[13:44] BALDUR Joubert: ok..agree[13:44] herman Bergson: the basic emotions like fear and joy can be experiences individually...[13:44] herman Bergson: with them you can survive...[13:45] BALDUR Joubert: hm...[13:45] herman Bergson: the complex emotions are culturally determined in the sense that you need the other for that ..[13:45] BALDUR Joubert: so microbes have fear anr joy?¨[13:45] herman Bergson: envy is such an emotion..[13:45] herman Bergson: you only can be envious of someone else...[13:46] BALDUR Joubert: i mean simple organisms live much longer than complex ones...[13:46] herman Bergson: sexual jealousy is such an emotion...[13:46] herman Bergson: that is not true Baldur...so far so good...we are still here![13:46] BALDUR Joubert: you said individulal experience.. that would mean independent of a social environment[13:47] herman Bergson: and I claim that we are the most complex ones on this planet ^_^[13:47] Blackrose Baroque: i think it's important to laugh..it makes a bond between people..[13:47] Blackrose Baroque: when you smile...at some one..you get a smile back[13:47] herman Bergson: yes...I can experience fear myself...is not related to others[13:47] Mick Nerido: People joke a lot when they are afraid[13:48] herman Bergson: we will get to that in the next lecture Blackrose![13:48] Bejiita Imako: yes and when someone laygh u start laughing as well[13:48] BALDUR Joubert: exist longer smile sorry.. i hat to be imprecise:)[13:48] Bejiita Imako: just the sound make u do that[13:48] BALDUR Joubert: smile but i think we have to get deeper into lets laugh theories lol[13:48] BALDUR Joubert: in class..[13:48] Doodus Moose: what proceses causes another to sneeze once someone else sneezes?[13:48] Doodus Moose: (just wondering)[13:48] BALDUR Joubert: hayfever dood?[13:49] Doodus Moose: or yawning[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hmm that i have never experienced howeever[13:49] Blackrose Baroque: nome either[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yawning however[13:49] herman Bergson: it is a common phenomenon Doodus...mimicry it is called I think...[13:49] BALDUR Joubert: oh you sneeze when you yawn' '[13:49] Mick Nerido: I have to walk my dogs bye...[13:49] Blackrose Baroque: bye Mick[13:49] BALDUR Joubert: some fart ..grin.. sorry but true..lol[13:50] Bejiita Imako: when everyone around you seem to be bored and tired u get also the same way, cause thats the general feeling in the place sort of[13:50] herman Bergson: copying the gestures of other to show social connection[13:50] BALDUR Joubert: mirror neurons.. smile they pop up all the time:)[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i was logged out[13:50] herman Bergson: Are you ok Gemma???[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ☆*¨¨*:• I'm Back! What'd I Miss?? •:*¨¨*☆[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Hey![13:50] Bejiita Imako: wb Gemma[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:50] BALDUR Joubert: fun -joy and happiness gemma:)[13:51] Blackrose Baroque: you missed a lot of joy Gemma[13:51] Anja Tigerfish: -WB[13:51] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)[13:51] herman Bergson: ok..I think next lecture will be fun then....:-)[13:52] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i wil have to read the blog of this one[13:52] Doodus Moose: time to eat over here - thanks everyone!![13:52] herman Bergson: Thank you all....[13:52] Bejiita Imako: cu Doodus ㋡[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡ [13:52] Ciska Riverstone: Thank You herman - thanx everyone - enjoy :-)[13:52] Bejiita Imako: oki[13:52] Bejiita Imako: cu next time then ㋡[13:52] Bejiita Imako: and some of u in a while[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:53] Bejiita Imako: nice as usual this[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:53] Blackrose Baroque: thank you sir for the lecture[13:53] herman Bergson: My pleasure Blackrose[13:53] Blackrose Baroque: bye bye
In the last two lectures I have drawn your attention to the fact that the subject of our current project is not just an interesting philosophical topic in general, but a hot issue in science and in the public debate nowaday.Now it's time to revert to our plotted course again and focus on the biological and evolutionary roots of our basic emotions.In lecture 306 I stated that emotions are biological systems, just like blood pressure or reflexes or the working of enzymes. They are not, as often is assumed, jammers or annoying obstacles that frustrate the ratio.Another thing we have to keep in mind is, that when you look at the evolution of the brain, emotions developed prior to our so highly valued rationality.In lecture 307 I defined emotion thus: Emotions show themselves by feelings, for instance fear, but the emotion is much more than just that feeling. Thence, an emotion is a driving force which as an orchestra conductor ensures that a number of specific behavioral systems run in parallel and work together to solve an acute problem.The emotion pushes all actions of the person for instance in fear into one direction. And it is through evolution that we have developed this system of emotions, which ensures our survival and ability to live as a social being.Before we go into detail about some basic emotions, their individual functions and evolutionary advantages, we have to consider an interesting view.It is regarding the biological function of emotions. They emerged in the evolutionary process. They were transferred and inherited from generation onto generation.It means, that probably the basic emotions made us fittest for survival, which means best adapted to our environment. This environment was the group.Thomas Hobbes (1588 - 1679) had no idea of an evolution of emotions, but yet he was to the point by stating that the fear of death and the need for security are the psychological foundations both of worldly prudence and of civilization itself.“Reason,” he said, “declaring peace to be good, it follows by the same reason, that all the necessary means to peace be good also”, otherwise there would be no society, and the life of man would be “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.”It is philosophically characteristic that Hobbes bases the inevitability of social behavior on reason, while from an evolutionary point of view we now know that human sociality is primarily based on emotions, as defined here.It is interesting to think of it, that in those days many philosophers were convinced of the idea that society was based on some kind of social contract, formulated by our reason.But in fact the situation is much more basic. Nowaday we cover all our obligations and those of others with signed contracts and legal stuff.However, a hundred thousand years ago our ancestors didn't even dream of contracts. Yet they had contracts, like the evolution biologist Robert Trivers states. An emotion is a contract. To survive people had to co-operate, for instance in building a shelter or in hunting down a mammoth.Such mutual co-operation is fragile. It could be easily destroyed by individual greed and dishonesty, but the social power of emotions has found solutions for that.On solution which made the evolution of mutual co-operation possible was to punish the group member immediately for cheating and deception.A second solution was to "sign" a contract of mutual co-operation with a social emotion, which we for instance could call "guilt' or a feeling of obligation.Maybe you doubt this idea, thinking that you'd rather prefer a clear and rational agreement without the need to count on emotions.But that is probably a consequence of our deeply ingrained attitude to keep emotions out and prefer rationality.This however underestimates the power of our basic emotions. The gnawing power of guilt is stronger than we think, than we rationally are willing to believe.Of course the "emotion signature" isn't absolute. There have always been people who cheat and deceive, steal and murder,but the basic emotions have in general directed our behavior in the best direction to solve (social) problems, otherwise evolution hadn't produced a homo sapiens capable of such complex social behavior as we see today.It may be clear by now, that our brain, which we almost automatically equate with ratio and intelligence, can not be separated from emotions and feelings.In the following lectures I'll discuss the basic emotions of Joy and Happiness, Grief, Anger, Marvel, Loathing and Disgust, Shame, Guilt and Pride. So, be ready for it…..The Discussion[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you....for your attention...:-)[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): feels guilty ....[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hahahah[13:24] herman Bergson: you were in IM GEmma????lol[13:24] Bejiita Imako: Shame on u Gemma![13:24] Bejiita Imako: lol[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in the kitchen[13:24] Qwark Allen: l ☺ ☻ ☺ l[13:24] Qwark Allen: lol[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hahaha[13:24] Mick Nerido: Emotions=instincts?[13:24] herman Bergson: lol...[13:25] Bejiita Imako: eating as usual?[13:25] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:25] herman Bergson: Don't know Mick...it is just a word...[13:25] Bejiita Imako: need to stuff myself with something soon[13:25] herman Bergson: but to some extend I think you are right[13:25] Bejiita Imako: some tasty stuff[13:26] herman Bergson: ah..my stuff isn't tasty Bejiita????? :-)[13:26] Bejiita Imako: haha[13:26] Bejiita Imako: yes but u can't eat it[13:26] Bejiita Imako: lol[13:26] Mick Nerido: Like an animal "knows" what to do without rational thought[13:26] Bejiita Imako: well my brain maybe [13:26] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:26] herman Bergson: no ..you only can digest it...^_^[13:26] Bejiita Imako: true[13:27] herman Bergson: ok...let's make it a lazy day...nothing to discuss ..^_^[13:27] Qwark Allen: i just have one remark[13:27] BALDUR Joubert: i think the most important question is . which emotions are inherited,to say genetically based..which introduced by culture..[13:27] herman Bergson: Gemma is in the kitchen...Bejiita needs some good stuff...name it[13:27] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): oh.. need to go .. sorry[13:27] Mick Nerido: I rushed home to be here...:)[13:27] Qwark Allen: ~when they said 100 000 years, to me seems short[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡ [13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oops too late[13:28] Qwark Allen: cause our specie is in this planet at , at least 500 000[13:28] BALDUR Joubert: sapiens is about 100 000 years [13:28] Qwark Allen: i`m talking about sapiens [13:28] Qwark Allen: us[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well i do not think with the same sensibilities[13:28] Qwark Allen: so this should be more ancient then it seems[13:28] BALDUR Joubert: you Q.yes[13:29] Qwark Allen: seems logical that this kind of behaviour it`s among us at a long time[13:29] herman Bergson: no Qwark.....just look at the evolution diagram at the wall[13:30] Qwark Allen: they just found out a tooth from a homo sapiens, with 400 000 years[13:30] herman Bergson: The homo habilis , 2.5 million years ago was able to create tools[13:30] Qwark Allen: at israel[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: Africa Q[13:30] Qwark Allen: asia[13:30] Qwark Allen: euro asia[13:30] herman Bergson: Welll...could be at the level of neandethaler....[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes africa was before asia[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): all came out of africa[13:31] Qwark Allen: at a point there was 5 different hominides[13:31] Bejiita Imako: Africa is where we come from originally[13:31] Qwark Allen: including us[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): amazing we made it[13:31] Mick Nerido: The Neanderthaler has a bad rep[13:31] BALDUR Joubert: they showed he was much better than his reputation mick[13:32] herman Bergson: but our level of development is of the late pleistocene...40.000 years ago..the cro magnon for instance[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes and there was some inter breeding as well they say[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: and they existed longer than we did under difficult conditions[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...amazing we made it....the right words[13:33] Qwark Allen: there is not in the wall, the homo hobit, that was a sapiens too[13:33] BALDUR Joubert: amazing THEY made it:)[13:33] herman Bergson: and amazing how we screw up now ^_^[13:33] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:33] Bejiita Imako: haha[13:33] Mick Nerido: Clan of the cave bears a good read about Neanderthals[13:34] Qwark Allen: just saying that human history is not totally as how they told it was[13:34] herman Bergson: yes..nice literature Mick....loved it[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: la guerre du feu a good movie....[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes I have seen it Baldur....was great indeed[13:34] Qwark Allen: just fiction, like star wars[13:35] herman Bergson: calculated guessing Qwark...[13:35] Qwark Allen: bad calculation[13:35] Qwark Allen: l ☺ ☻ ☺ l[13:35] Qwark Allen: lol[13:35] herman Bergson: which is not the case in Starwars...[13:35] Mick Nerido: But the author postulated they were smart but were not able to adapt like us[13:35] Qwark Allen: that a possible calculation, based in our grow as science[13:35] BALDUR Joubert: smile how long will we adapt mick:)?[13:36] herman Bergson: Why the Neanderthalers disappeared we'll never know...[13:36] Qwark Allen: we know[13:36] Qwark Allen: they were not so good prepared as us[13:36] Qwark Allen: and they mixed with us[13:36] Qwark Allen: last ones found was in iberic peninsule, 15000 years ago[13:36] Mick Nerido: I see a lot of Neanderthals at WallMart[13:36] Qwark Allen: around the ice age[13:37] herman Bergson: but the brain of the Neanderthaler was larger than that of the homo sapiens...[13:37] Qwark Allen: cause of this we have micro cefalie[13:37] BALDUR Joubert: they were well prepared for more than 100000 years Q[13:37] Qwark Allen: in our genes[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Hnnn Hnnn Hnnn ! ҳ̸Ҳ̸ҳ[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I want a Big Fish[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Gimme[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Gimme a Big Fish[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Pleasssseee !!!!![13:37] Qwark Allen: l ☺ ☻ ☺ l[13:37] Qwark Allen: lol[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): OOPS[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hahah not fishing yet Gemma[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): SOME TRIGGER[13:37] herman Bergson: Gemma???[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:37] Bejiita Imako: lol[13:37] herman Bergson: Are you ok???[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): YES[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hahah[13:37] BALDUR Joubert: food poisoning.....[13:38] BALDUR Joubert: affects the brain.:)[13:38] herman Bergson: Seems so Baldur...[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hahah[13:38] herman Bergson: A bit of a weird class today ^_^[13:38] Qwark Allen whispers: it is[13:38] Bejiita Imako: lol[13:38] Bejiita Imako: fun as always[13:38] Qwark Allen: it`s stills about evolution ^^[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: st patricks day for our american friends.. too much to drink i think lol[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes...but I am puzzled by the results I find in my class today ^_^[13:39] Mick Nerido: St Patrics Day too much green bear[13:39] Qwark Allen: i`m portuguese ^^[13:39] Bejiita Imako: heheh[13:39] Mick Nerido: Beer[13:39] Bejiita Imako: mmm beeeer[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: nobody is perfect Q lol[13:39] herman Bergson: Gemma must be Irish then ^_^[13:39] Qwark Allen: i know ehehhe[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not really[13:39] Qwark Allen: l ☺ ☻ ☺ l[13:39] Qwark Allen: lol[13:39] Mick Nerido: Spring feaver?[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): some part[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: katarina, she's the only one in green....[13:40] katarina Bianco: :)[13:40] Qwark Allen: i just said about late science developments[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but everyone is irish here on st pat's day[13:40] herman Bergson: I must appologize Katarina....the class is really misbehaving....never happened before[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hmm and the new party place is decorated for this day right?[13:40] herman Bergson: Must be spring fever indeed[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh right[13:40] Qwark Allen: yes bejita[13:40] Bejiita Imako: so after this we can celebrate st patricks there[13:41] Bejiita Imako: nice[13:41] BALDUR Joubert: its all emotions katarina:)[13:41] katarina Bianco: I like green color and beer.. for me every day is St. Patrick day :)[13:41] Bejiita Imako: and yes I have spring fever[13:41] Bejiita Imako: but tomorrow should be at least 10 cm snow and ice again AAARRRRGGGH[13:41] BALDUR Joubert: hey.. ..a smart girl amongst us welcome kat....[13:41] Bejiita Imako: tired of snow now[13:42] katarina Bianco: ty[13:42] Mick Nerido: WE feel safe here so we show the emotion of happiness[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh no[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): snow?[13:42] herman Bergson laughs[13:42] herman Bergson: Good thinking Mick[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes so they told in the weather report for sweden[13:42] Mick Nerido: thanks[13:42] herman Bergson: But I would say: CLASS DISMISSED[13:42] Qwark Allen: Hooooooo!!!!!!! \o/[13:42] Qwark Allen: |[13:42] Qwark Allen: / \[13:42] Qwark Allen: ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮[13:42] Qwark Allen: Hoooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!![13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok[13:42] Bejiita Imako: oki[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:43] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`[13:43] Qwark Allen: ty[13:43] herman Bergson: enjoy your next hours...have fun..it seems to be in your blood at the moment![13:43] Bejiita Imako: some more interesting subjects to think of[13:43] Qwark Allen: was missing class[13:43] Qwark Allen: .-)
Do you realize, that a philosophical debate has reached the pages of the newspapers presently? If I hadn't started my project "The Mystery of the Brain", I might have read some articles with only general interest and overlooked the deeper ramifications.But now I do not consume the information as just interesting information anymore. I am witnessing an ongoing debate, which is only becoming more and more intense.For instance March 7. Do you remember me mentioning http://www.cephoscorp.com/ and that scary video, where was stated,that 'blood pumping' was the proof of being a liar?A similar company in the US is No Lie MRI, the competitor of Cephos. This company also claims that the fMRI scanner is a highly reliable lie-detector.The article in my newspaper begins thus: " Who wants to conceal the truth in a brainscan, can achieve this easily. American and Dutch researchers demonstrate this in an article in the magazine 'Neuroimage' of this month".The text to the pictures is: "(…) Researchers have proven that the brainscanner does not score better than the questionable polygraph."As a philosopher I read a lot more in this article than only the simple observation that the brainscanner is as reliable as a polygraph, which means… of no use.To give such eye-catching space to this subject in the newspaper shows us, what you by now should know, that THE BRAIN has become a social issue, subject of many debates. Debates about evidence in court, about the value of religion in politics, even the existence of god.Again today there was a letter of a reader on the forum page of my newspaper about the role of God in politics and about claims people have, while referring to God as their inspiration.That is the other side of the public debate that has come up now in the media about the homo sapiens and his brain. And when reading your newspaper, realize that you are witnessing the debate between materialism and all other concepts of reality, religious, esoteric or transcendental.So, from now on I ask you to read your newspaper and magazines also with philosophical glasses. Focus on articles, which deal with brain and brain related issues. Focus on articles, which discuss the reality of religion and god. And if you run into such articles, tell us about it or send it to me one way or the other. I can handle French, German, English and Spanish.But there is more. One of the major discussions within a materialist context is, that every process in nature is determined by causality.Thence, if mental states are in fact physical states of the physical brain, they have to be causal. This means that we have to conclude, that every mental state / brain state is caused by a prior state. In other word we have to deal with determinism here.Sure, causality is an unquestionable feature of our physical world, but then there is the interview with the Dutch Quantumphysicist Dick Bouwmeester in my newspaper of March 12.From a materialist point of view quantum mechanics offer a puzzling situation regarding matter, for it is an establish physical fact that on the smallest atomic level matter doesn't behave causally at all, but random.This confronts us with an intriguing question: on the macro-level we see causality, but on the micro-level we see randomness. This leads to the question: where is the point of transition from quantum randomness to strong causality and how does that work?This question shows nicely how little we actually know about the physical world, about matter, although we yet know at least much, that we can formulate such a question.Finally something else from my newspaper, which is closely related with our attempts to unravel the mystery of the brain: Symbiogenesis.In 1924 the Russian botanist Boris Mikhaylovich Kozo-Polyanski had published a book, in which he contended that all kinds of parts of the living cell are actually bacteria, but fully integrated in the cell as part of it.Simply stated: it began with a symbioses between cell and bacteria and it ends up in a complete absorption of the bacteria in the cell, thus creating a completely new kind of cell.The quintessence of this idea of symbiogenesis is, that this theory emphasizes cooperation while the classical interpretation of evolution emphasizes competition as the main force behind evolution.Thence contrary to the theory of gradual evolution, Kozo-Polyanski asserts that the creation of a compound organism out of the merging of two or more separate organisms, has to be regarded as a leap instead of a gradual evolution.Then there was an interview in my newspaper with Antonio Damasio, one of the leading neurobiologists today, about his new book "Self comes to Mind"He says: "Smart people say that the mind emerges from the brain, that the mind IS the brain, but that is not a satisfactory answer. How becomes brain mind?"Then I beginning to wonder about a symbiogenetic leap. Was that what has happened in our evolution when the Self emerged in our mind? As you see, even reading the newspaper is participating in the philosophical debate of today about the mystery of brain.Perfect article on the rediscovery of symbiogenesis you find here: http://harvardpress.typepad.com/hup_publicity/2010/07/rediscovering-symbiogenesis.htmlAnd last but not least: keep us informed about what YOU read in your newspaper and magazines about this philosophical debate…..The Discussion[13:25] herman Bergson: Thank you...[13:25] herman Bergson: If you have a question or remark..the floor is yours ^_^[13:25] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): i just read the article you have on the board..it seems easy to fool the scan[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ok[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes seems so indeed....[13:26] Bejiita Imako: hmm doubtful about that method[13:26] BALDUR Joubert: first:quantum theory.. the fact that we cant exéplain and understand the changes.. so we say random but it doen't mean it IS RANDOM[13:26] BALDUR Joubert: JUST A WORD FOR WHAT WE SEE AS SUCH[13:26] herman Bergson: nice move Baldur....:-)[13:26] Doodus Moose: and yes - the mathematics change between the quantum & the universe we observe[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:27] Doodus Moose: ...just as Mr Bergson has demonstrated between the mind's determinism & atomic process[13:27] BALDUR Joubert: second. the bacteria and other theories.. every scientist today in his field of speciality thinks he has to include the brain..[13:27] herman Bergson: Welll it is an open question still Doodus...[13:28] herman Bergson: That was my point Baldur.....[13:28] herman Bergson: is the emergence of the Mind such a leap?[13:28] BALDUR Joubert: atomic processes..we are FFFFFAAAAAR from knowing that in the brain..as we still try to figure out the atom and its parts[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it is interesting to see the conflicts in theories about the brain and the mind[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): all in its infancy[13:29] Bejiita Imako: aa yes indeed[13:29] Bejiita Imako: kind of new it seems[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: as i said everyone wants to add his grain..lol[13:29] herman Bergson: Well Gemma...more interesting is to see how in the newspapers ...at least in mine, this brain - mind debate is alive...[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ah¨[13:29] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): which newspaper Herman?[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): have been lots of discussions on tv and the radio too[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: papers want to be sold so the subject is in .. nothingh more..[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): cynic[13:30] Doodus Moose: lol[13:30] herman Bergson: plz Baldur.....![13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there must be a huge interest if the newspapers are doing that with all the other news[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: its true..go through the history of science and press...[13:30] herman Bergson: I really think we are dealing with something else here than just a popularity contest of subjects[13:31] herman Bergson: no....I dont buy that Baldur...[13:31] herman Bergson: Read Damasio first[13:31] BALDUR Joubert: it is becoming a popularity contest..and waters down the main questions..[13:31] herman Bergson: I dont agree Baldur....[13:31] BALDUR Joubert: ok i'll send you a dvd to think about...[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: in german:)[13:32] Mick Nerido: I think the advent of the internet etc. has hightened intrest in the mind[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: which one baldr?[13:32] herman Bergson: It is not the internet Mick....[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: AI has been a subject since years..[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is true too[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: i'll send it to you too ciscka:)[13:32] herman Bergson: Scientiffic development is only reported on internet[13:33] Mick Nerido: To create Ai we must understand our brain[13:33] herman Bergson: Well the AI issue and the mind is a special subject Mick...we'll get to that later[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: if you consider the brain as harware.the problem AI is mind...the software:)[13:34] herman Bergson: Especially because AI hasn't made true its promises...[13:34] Mick Nerido: yes Baldur good point[13:35] herman Bergson: That is a general concept already.....that the brain is the hardware and the mind the software[13:35] Bejiita Imako: a indeed[13:35] BALDUR Joubert: ty,,didn't know..[13:35] Bejiita Imako: the brain runs the mind like a computer runs windows or linux[13:35] herman Bergson: but it has its consequences….[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: in your last lecture you cited a lot of guys who didn't understand that lol[13:36] herman Bergson: logically it leads to the conclusion that everything could have a mind,[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: gosh - hope not vista...[13:36] Bejiita Imako: haaha hope not[13:36] herman Bergson: based on the idea that the software is not necessarily dependent on the type of hardware it is using[13:36] Bejiita Imako: my laptop does not feels so good on that system[13:36] herman Bergson: an issue we'll discuss later too .. ^_^[13:37] herman Bergson: Can my laptop have a headache ^_^ ???[13:37] Bejiita Imako: but a computer doesn't have a mind cause its a machine that only follows exactly what its told to do[13:37] Doodus Moose: no - but it can run a temperature[13:37] BALDUR Joubert: everything could have a mind' ' then we should know what mind is.. still the question[13:37] BALDUR Joubert: for scientist and philosophers..[13:38] Bejiita Imako: basically its just an advanced calculator that use mathematical formulas to do everything[13:38] BALDUR Joubert: that could go for the brain as such beji[13:38] herman Bergson: Bejiita...you will love the Chinese Room argument of John Searle :-)[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and that works cause mathematics is the language of the nature so thats why sound pictures and everything else can be input into a computer[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: mathematics is the language we use to understand[13:39] Mick Nerido: Conciousness comes with Mind I think[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:39] Bejiita Imako: thats the difference[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: understand nature not the other way around beji[13:39] Bejiita Imako: we directly see and feel what we do[13:39] herman Bergson: Well…Bejiita…I guess the chinese room argument also applies to mathematics...[13:39] Bejiita Imako: a computer doesn't see its running sl it only sees 1+1 or 1-2 = then ect milions of times per second[13:40] Bejiita Imako: and that in turn creates the sl program[13:40] herman Bergson: Basically it asks...how can symbol manipulation get semantic meaning?[13:40] herman Bergson: Which means....[13:40] Mick Nerido: How could a computer be concious?[13:40] herman Bergson: how can my mathematical calculations tell me that the bridge I am constructing will hold?[13:41] Bejiita Imako: as said, it cant cause all it does is dealing with mathematical formulas billions of times per sec which in turn is made up of just small switches that turn on and of[13:41] Mick Nerido: Physics[13:41] Bejiita Imako: in no way a computer can "see" that it runs second life ex[13:41] Bejiita Imako: its as dumb as the light switch[13:42] Bejiita Imako: or a relay[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: compared to speed of neuron exchange in the brain.. beji..[13:42] herman Bergson: a computer is a symbol shuffler[13:42] Bejiita Imako: flipping on and off[13:42] Mick Nerido: Hal wasn't dumb[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: lol[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hahah thats a Sci Fi machine[13:42] herman Bergson: And HAl was hell ^_^[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: was he' ' if we look around us men are hell[13:43] Doodus Moose: i always saw HAL as the ultimate "A"-type personality[13:43] Bejiita Imako: its like the LHC, that huge machine seems it have a mind when it even can say things about what it do[13:43] Bejiita Imako: but its not smarter that my computer here[13:43] herman Bergson: There is Sartre.....L'enfer c'est l'autre ^_^[13:43] Bejiita Imako: an advanced machine but still just a machine[13:43] herman Bergson: But anyway.....[13:43] Mick Nerido: Any advanced tech looks like magic to the ignorent[13:43] BALDUR Joubert: right..but we are l'autre for the others too[13:44] herman Bergson: What I wanted to show you before continuing on the biology of emotins is....read your newspaper with philosophical glasses on...[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): will do[13:44] herman Bergson: yes Baldur and we are enjoying a hell of a time together here ^_^[13:44] BALDUR Joubert: always read with a critical mind..that's the philosophers obligation:)[13:45] herman Bergson: When you keep the BRAIN/MIND issue in mind and chech your newspaper....[13:45] BALDUR Joubert: yes herman..if we couldn't argue..would be dull[13:45] herman Bergson: 80% chance some article is related to the issue[13:46] Mick Nerido: I'll keep that in mind:)[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...this applies to my newspaper...a dutch one...[13:47] herman Bergson: Just imagine..why are there so often discussions about what sense religion makes for instance?[13:47] Mick Nerido: Thanks Professor, I must leave[13:48] herman Bergson: OK...I hope you got my message......[13:48] BALDUR Joubert: good question herman.. but we should start to try to understand how religion came to being..[13:48] herman Bergson: This is not just a philosophical project like lecturing on 100 philosophers[13:49] herman Bergson: Just start re-reading to begin with lecture 266 Baldur and you'll get the answer[13:49] BALDUR Joubert: 266..i'll give you my comment...[13:49] herman Bergson: We are in the middle of a worldwide debate... a public one and a scientific one and a philosophical one[13:50] herman Bergson: and I find it exciting ^_^[13:50] Bejiita Imako: its interesting[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very[13:51] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): has there ever been such a debate?[13:51] herman Bergson: So...a reward for the firs tone of you who shows up with some newspaper article related to our quest![13:51] BALDUR Joubert: smile..i kept that in mind:)[13:52] BALDUR Joubert: smile thanks to my brain:)[13:52] herman Bergson: Ok...you have your assignment....[13:52] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation....[13:52] herman Bergson: .[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed[13:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): herman[13:53] BALDUR Joubert: ty herman[13:53] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)[13:53] BALDUR Joubert: man..[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: thank you Herman[13:53] Bejiita Imako: nice as usual ㋡[13:53] herman Bergson: Thank you Bejiita ^_^[13:53] Doodus Moose: this is going to be tough, but i appreciate the challenge, Professor[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman & class![13:54] Ciska Riverstone: Enjoy your day /night everyone[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: now i go THINKING :-)))[13:54] herman Bergson: thnx[13:54] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): lol Bergfrau[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: see u soon:-)[13:55] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye bye[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:55] Bejiita Imako: cu[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye :-)
Two weeks in a row my newspaper pays a lot of attention to the subject that concerns us here: the brain. And now it is the opposition talking.The opposition is represented by long articles and interviews with professors in psychology and psychiatry. The critics are so important for our discourse, that I interrupt our line of thought about the evolutionary history and biology of emotes.You have to hear this. It will give you arguments to think about and it reveals a big philosophical problem, that we'll discuss in the near future. Maybe at the end of this lecture you know what that philosophical problem is. If not I'll tell you.-quotePeople have a history of giving meaning, of motives, desires and emotions. Inside this you find the main explanations for mental processes. And you' won't find them in the brain.Jan Derksen, Professor of clinical psychology at the University of Niimegen.- end quoteThe book "We are our brain" by Dick Swaab, the internationally renowned neuroscientist, published in March 2010, has sold more than 100.000 copies in the Netherlands! In his book he argues that all human behavior is enshrined in the brain.-quote ( Frank Koerselman)The criticism of Dick Swaab is that he takes it too far, and I agree with that. When Swaab says: everything is in the brain, he isn't wrong, for without a brain we wouldn't exist. But then, can you explain everything with this?I don't think so. It can be quite useful to look inside the brain, but a statement like "Everything is enshrined in the brain" is saying something like "Every painting consists of paint."Then you miss the mood and emotion, which the painting evokes. And then of course you miss the experience. Explaining and experiencing often don't get along to well.-end quoteThese are the words Frank Koerselman, professor of psychiatry and psychotherapy at the University of Utrecht. in an interview covering two pages of my newspaper.And then a long article of the Herman M. van Praag, retired professor of psychiatry at the Universities of Groningen, Utrecht, Maastricht and the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York. (In the meantime you also learn a little about Dutch topography:-)-quoteWhat do I mean with "mind". The person,who I am or at least think I am. My thinking, my emotional life, my religious, aesthetic and affective needs, my expectations, my disappointments, my loves, my habits. An enumerations which isn't more than an anthology.(…) Suppose, we would know the neural substrate of aesthetic experiences in full detail, what would it teach us about the origin of those experiences, about the nature of these experiences, about our aesthetic preferences and inter-individual differences?(…) What does the knowledge of the brain teach us about our hope, our expectations, our disappointments, our grief, happiness, shame, feelings of love, our moral sense?The answer is: little to nothing. The mind is indeed dependent on a functioning brain, but can not be analyzed, studied, appreciated through the brain . The mind is a world unto itself. It is in many ways an independently operating product of the brain.(…) We exist due to our brain. We are not our brain. We are much more than our brain. We are also a MIND. Everyone of us has, with the help of our brain, built a world far away from the material and mechanistic one. That is done in a way that transcends the brain- end quoteOne thing is clear. We are marching along in the front rows of the most important philosophical debate of today. Even newspapers spend pages on the subject.But what to do with all this criticism with respect to our project? Are we on the wrong track? No. Are these critics missing the point? No. On the contrary.However, to judge the criticism properly we have to be well aware of the conceptual difference between THE mind and MY mind. All this criticism points at the SUBJECTIVE mind, my mind, your personal mind.Or formulated in other words, they all point at subjective consciousness. It is one thing, that the brain can generate consciousness. We even can scientifically proof that someone is conscious (although there seem to be exceptions in certain cases of coma).But what we can not scientifically explain is SUBJECTIVE consciousness. When I see a dog and you see the same dog, are our mental states identical? Can't be because I can say seeing that dog is MY experience and in that sense it differs from yours.Subjective consciousness is an extremely difficult philosophical nut to crack. Later we'll get to that subject. The quoted critics refer to that problem, but it doesn't lead to the conclusion that we therefore should give up our quest into the Mystery of the Brain.The next lecture will be March 15. I will be gone for a short Spring vacation or actually to escape the Carneval events and happenings, which disrupt normal live for the coming week in the region I live.If you get bored I can give you a subject that is closely related with what I presented today: neural determinism. Just start a google on that and you're in the middle of an ongoing debate.The Discussion[13:27] herman Bergson: Thank you[13:27] Aristotle von Doobie: :)[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:28] Bejiita Imako: oki[13:28] herman Bergson: Hello Clerisse ^_^[13:28] Bejiita Imako: hi Clerisse[13:28] Mick Nerido: thanks, Is Neural determinism the same as Biocenterism?[13:28] Clerisse Beeswing: hello professor[13:28] Aristotle von Doobie: Of course, being the center of the universe, my mind it the ultimate in subjectivity, it is the Captain Kirk where my brain is Mr Spock[13:29] Aristotle von Doobie: hello Clerisse[13:29] herman Bergson: Not sure Mick..don't know that term[13:29] herman Bergson: Should I beam you up, Aristotle?[13:30] Mick Nerido: A theory that our minds create the universe not the other way around.[13:30] Aristotle von Doobie: LOL, no that is Scottie[13:30] Bejiita Imako: haha[13:30] herman Bergson: That is called Idealism Mick.....[13:30] Aristotle von Doobie: perhaps he is represents the body[13:30] herman Bergson: the idea that what is real is just our mind[13:31] Aristotle von Doobie: I agree Herman and based on our specific emperical data gathering, that may be very well be different[13:31] Aristotle von Doobie: Ill Get u My Pretty And Your Little Dog To[13:31] Aristotle von Doobie: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha[13:31] Mick Nerido: It ties into the subatomic theory in Physics[13:31] Merel Heron: it is a lot you give us to think about professor[13:31] Aristotle von Doobie: Ill Get u My Pretty And Your Little Dog To[13:31] Aristotle von Doobie: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha[13:32] Aristotle von Doobie: oooop[s a gesture gone amok'[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Merel....I know..:-)[13:32] Merel Heron: but it is so interesting[13:33] Merel Heron: i started on the book from Dick Swaab about the brain[13:33] herman Bergson: Oh nice...a good companion to these lectures[13:34] Merel Heron: yes that is what i thought too[13:34] herman Bergson: The lectures follow his basic ideas...[13:35] herman Bergson: But I started this project before his book was published[13:35] herman Bergson: He just thinks the same way as I do :-)[13:35] Merel Heron: mmmm yes and like you say it isn't only the brain but also the connection to our whole being[13:35] Qwark Allen: do you ever talk personally with him?[13:35] Clerisse Beeswing: ahh two minds that think alike..pretty cool[13:36] herman Bergson: No Qwark .....[13:36] herman Bergson: I have seen him in an interview on TV...[13:36] Qwark Allen: ok[13:36] Bejiita Imako: oki[13:36] herman Bergson: His book is pretty upsetting for some people[13:37] :: Beertje ::: in what way?[13:37] Qwark Allen: you should send him a mail then[13:37] Qwark Allen: should be a interesting exchange of ideas[13:37] herman Bergson: Well Beertje....if everything is just a product of the brain..God is too....[13:37] herman Bergson: and here we go....^_^[13:37] Merel Heron: mmm i think so far it is very clear the way he write about the brain[13:37] :: Beertje ::: maybe he is right[13:38] herman Bergson: Oh in my opinion he is quite right Beertje[13:38] Clerisse Beeswing: ahh is he a atheist[13:38] herman Bergson: no...not an atheist...[13:38] Clerisse Beeswing: sorry my spelling is crappy[13:38] Aristotle von Doobie: if the brain produces the mind, where did it put it?[13:38] herman Bergson: Just someone who is puzlled by ideas other people have[13:39] herman Bergson: Ahhhh Aristotle.....[13:39] Mick Nerido: The Universe could be a big brain...[13:39] Qwark Allen: the mind it`s the electricity that powers the brain[13:39] herman Bergson: That is a good remark....[13:39] Qwark Allen: maybe without mind, there is no brain[13:39] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example....this is important....[13:39] Clerisse Beeswing: neat qwark[13:39] Qwark Allen: :-)[13:40] herman Bergson: Take a glass of water....[13:40] Aristotle von Doobie: I wave my hand over my head but can not find it[13:40] herman Bergson: in that glass are H2O molecules.....[13:40] herman Bergson: and the water is liquid.....[13:41] herman Bergson: If the H2O molecus produce the liquidity...where did they put it?[13:41] Clerisse Beeswing: we put it back in the air[13:42] herman Bergson: liquidity is only a quality which can exists with H2O molecules.....[13:42] herman Bergson: it is not a property as such....[13:42] Mick Nerido: there is ice[13:42] Bejiita Imako: its a matter state[13:42] herman Bergson: like you can have water on the one hand and liquidity on the other hand[13:43] Bejiita Imako: like ice liquid gas plasma[13:43] Aristotle von Doobie: LOL it will surly run through your fingers, but can be touched....maybe it is ether[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:43] herman Bergson: that is how the brain and mind are related...[13:43] Qwark Allen: i`m not so sure about that[13:44] Qwark Allen: how you relate it?[13:44] herman Bergson: We haven't the slightest idea why H2O molecules cause liquidity at a given state[13:44] herman Bergson: neither do we know how the brain causes consciousness in a given state[13:44] Clerisse Beeswing: like rain[13:44] Qwark Allen: that depends on temperature[13:45] Qwark Allen: it`s a physical process[13:45] Clerisse Beeswing: hmm I see[13:45] Qwark Allen: depends on the angle of the atoms inside the molecule[13:45] Mick Nerido: I think the brain is a machine The Mind is a work it does[13:46] Bejiita Imako: molecules moving at different speeds and energy grab each other in a different way that why these states happen in matter[13:46] Aristotle von Doobie: yet with water, new theories as to why can be tested...proved or debunked, with the mind that is not possible[13:46] Clerisse Beeswing: every organ in our bodies is a machine or something[13:46] herman Bergson: that applies to the brain too Qwark...when you freeze it there is no mind either :-)[13:46] Bejiita Imako: the mind may bee a bit more complex indeed[13:46] Qwark Allen: it`s very complex[13:47] Mick Nerido: Not all minds achieve consciousness[13:47] herman Bergson: oh yes..and the them of today hits a central nerve....subjective consciousness[13:47] Qwark Allen: it`s where we got in the metaphysic[13:47] Aristotle von Doobie: the mind borders on being mystical[13:47] Qwark Allen: ehheeh[13:47] Aristotle von Doobie: a mystery for sure[13:47] herman Bergson: The subjective mind does , Aristotle[13:48] herman Bergson: The phenomenon of subjectivity is a big philosophical problem...[13:48] Mick Nerido: I think therefore I am...[13:49] Merel Heron: it is difficult to see the difference between mind and brain[13:49] Qwark Allen: remember my question 2 years ago? when we die, where does this electricity goes? we know in nature nothing is lost, everything transforms[13:49] Merel Heron: i am puzzled about it[13:49] herman Bergson: Well Mick even that is a problematic statement....[13:49] herman Bergson: Because Descartes smuggled something in, that wasnt there...the "I"[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie: I think therefore I think I am[13:50] Qwark Allen: can we be souls without a body, waiting for a body in a kind of limbo?[13:50] herman Bergson: the only thing he really could have said that there was tinking....[13:50] herman Bergson: Not that there was an "I"[13:50] herman Bergson: where did that "I"come from...with identity, a past and a present...?[13:50] Mick Nerido: But that is at the center of conciousness the "I"[13:50] Aristotle von Doobie: what could the should be other than the mind?[13:50] Aristotle von Doobie: soul[13:51] herman Bergson: soul is just a word....[13:51] herman Bergson: no idea who invented the word[13:51] Qwark Allen: soul, it`s the electricity that is on the brain[13:51] Mick Nerido: Soul might mean consciousness to some people[13:51] Aristotle von Doobie: well, religion sure loves the word[13:52] Qwark Allen: mind = soul[13:52] herman Bergson: True Aristotle...., but that doesn't prove a thing...[13:52] Aristotle von Doobie: maybe Dante invented it[13:52] herman Bergson: Why naming consciousness soul or electricity....[13:53] herman Bergson: do we really know what the concept of consciousness means...[13:53] Qwark Allen: because we are humans[[13:53] herman Bergson: We have that discussion waiting for us...:-)[13:53] Qwark Allen: we need to catalogue everything[13:54] Merel Heron: you have different levels of consciousness[13:54] Mick Nerido: Consciousness is a highly developed self awareness[13:54] herman Bergson: Qwark is gonna take his consciousness to his party ^_^[13:55] Aristotle von Doobie: later on Q-Man[13:55] herman Bergson: Duty calls , I guess :-)[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:55] Mick Nerido: lol[13:55] Qwark Allen: yes[13:55] Qwark Allen: i got to go[13:55] Qwark Allen: was interesting class[13:55] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`[13:55] Qwark Allen: ty[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ok cu there Q[13:55] Aristotle von Doobie: bye Qwark[13:55] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Bye ! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡[13:55] herman Bergson: Well..then it is time to offer you a well deserved vacation for a week...^_^[13:55] :: Beertje ::: have a nice evening quark[13:55] Clerisse Beeswing: bye qbaby[13:56] Mick Nerido: Bye Quark'[13:56] herman Bergson: I guess you have enough to think about now[13:56] Mick Nerido: Yes thanks[13:56] Merel Heron: ohhh yes we have[13:56] Bejiita Imako: hehe yes was interesting as usual[13:56] :: Beertje ::: yes as always Herman:)[13:56] Mick Nerido: Have a nice vacation[13:56] Aristotle von Doobie: it will surely take a very hight level of consciousness to find the mind[13:57] Merel Heron: thank you professor Bergson[13:57] Bejiita Imako: have a nice time now Herman and cu afterwards againb ㋡[13:57] Clerisse Beeswing: thank you professor..good class[13:57] Merel Heron: have indeed a nice vacation[13:57] Aristotle von Doobie: Thank you Professor....relax and enjoy your time off :)[13:57] :: Beertje ::: escape from Carneval:)[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...see you all on March 15 again ^_^[13:58] Merel Heron: oké bye bye all[13:58] Bejiita Imako: cu ㋡[13:58] Bejiita Imako: bye
