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It is often said that man has a "free will" because we have choices. This is not true. Every organism is constantly making choices. Point is, are these choices free?A definition of free will could be: the possibility to decide to do or not to do something without internal or external constraints, which determine this choice.Not a new idea. For Thomas Hobbes (1588 – 1679) liberty is simply the “absence of all the impediments to action that are not contained in the nature and intrinsical quality of the agent.”According to Hobbes all voluntary human action, he thought, is caused by the alternate operation of the general motives of desire and aversion, which he took to be similar to, and, indeed, varieties of, physical forces. The proximate or immediate cause of a voluntary motion is an act of the will, but an act of the will is never free in the sense of being uncaused. It is caused by some kind of desire or aversion.Spinoza (1632 -1677) takes it one step further and says, that free will does not exist. He illustrates this in his Ethica with some examples:"Does a baby decide in freedom that it will drink? Does an angry man decide in freedom that he wants revenge? Does the coward decide in freedom that he will run away?"Our present knowledge of neurobiology confirms what Spinoza already said: complete free will does not exist. Many hereditary factors and environmental influences affect the development of the brain.Our gender identity, sexual preferences, native language, our genetic background…..we can make this list longer, but the items show how we are loaded with internal constraints.We don't approve or disapprove things because we have thought it over, but because we can't do otherwise. Ethics is the consequence of our old evolutionary instincts, which are focused to do what does no harm the group.We decide many things in a split second or based on a hunch or intuition. We "choose" a partner by falling in love at first sight.Neuroscience shows us that an enormous amount of information processing takes place in our brain of which we are not aware.When you show pictures of naked men and women to one eye of a heterosexual man for only a split second, so that he can not really see what is shown, the eye yet turns to the naked women pictures and turns away from the naked men pictures.Emotions play an important role too as do cultural and social background in all this subconscious information processing.In such a brain is little room for a conscious free will at all. This has serious consequences, for, when we hold someone responsible for his actions, we assume the existence of a free will.Daniel M. Wegner is an American social psychologist. He is a professor of psychology at Harvard University. His book, The Illusion of Conscious Will, tackles the long-debated notion of free will through the scope of experimental psychology. In stead of free will he talks about an unconscious will, but we need the illusion of the free will to label our actions as "this is mine and this I am".Experiment: Touch the dot that will flash for a second on a screen . When the dot flashed, within 0.1 seconds the stimulus was on its way from the visual cortex to the motoric cortex.When the processing of the visual cortex was interrupted by a magnetic pulse the test person yet touched the screen, but wasn't aware of the flashing dot.So between the process in the visual cortex and the motoric cortex there was no conscious process of deciding to touch the screen or not. There may be some room for a free will in the situation that we ponder about a decision to make and take into account all possible consequences, but otherwise it seems to be an interesting illusion.The Discussion[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you...[13:20] herman Bergson: You are free to make a remark or ask a question ㋡[13:20] herman Bergson: The floor is yours[13:20] Cain Levasseur: This opens serious questions on Penal Law[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes Cain.....[13:21] herman Bergson: The more neurobiological insight we obtain the more serious this debate will become[13:21] Mick Nerido: Desire or pleasure vs aversion, we can choose to go against this but it is not "natural"[13:22] herman Bergson: Well the basic program of us as organism is to avoid pain and to seek pleasure...[13:22] Bejiita Imako: yes true[13:22] herman Bergson: A biological fact of all sentient beings...[13:22] Mick Nerido: Yes but we can choose pain[13:23] herman Bergson: WHo seeks pain experiences pleasure , I would say[13:23] Mick Nerido: say like study all night rather than party all night[13:23] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): of course all this neurobiological manipulation assumes that the brain is as singular entity and that the decision as to which path to follow is electical[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle.....[13:24] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): thus eliminating free will[13:24] herman Bergson: Tho some people have two brains....[13:24] herman Bergson: two wills even.....[13:24] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): freewill requires the belief in duality[13:24] herman Bergson: it is called the alien-hand syndrome.....[13:25] herman Bergson: when communication between the two hemispheres of the brian is disrupted...[13:25] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I think our primal instinctual brain allows for no free will[13:25] herman Bergson: such patients have two hands...one who put on the pants and the other hand that takes of the pants in the same time[13:25] Mick Nerido: the higher brain also?[13:25] Alaya Kumaki: there might be certain thing that the brain is already made to do from birth, as the sucking reflect of the baby, but i wonder if there is much more than that, just that it will manifest much later during the development[13:25] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): it is our evolved cerebral brain that determines the path[13:26] herman Bergson: Our brain is loaded with activity Alaya......[13:26] herman Bergson: much of which we are not aware of...[13:27] herman Bergson: Consciousness is just a babble box someone once said....[13:27] Alaya Kumaki: i prefer scrabble[13:27] herman Bergson: always running after the facts with its stories[13:27] Clerisse Beeswing: Where does our subconscience lay?[13:28] Mick Nerido: Were the stoics feeling pleasure?[13:28] herman Bergson: Well Clerisse...the subconscious in a Freudian sense doesnt exist...[13:28] Clerisse Beeswing: wow..never knew that[13:29] herman Bergson: But the brain does process lots of information that influences our behavior without us being aware of it[13:29] Alaya Kumaki: the stoic is a school of thought not a species mick[13:29] herman Bergson: In a way Freud was right....[13:30] herman Bergson: That experiences at young age are stored and influential at alter age[13:30] Clerisse Beeswing: Is that why a stroke hits a brain no matter which side it does damage?[13:30] Now playing: Antonio Vivaldi - Rachel Podger, Arte Dei Suonatori - Vioolconcert in e op.4/2 RV279 (Channel Cl. CCS 19598)[13:30] herman Bergson: What do you mean Clerisse?[13:31] Clerisse Beeswing: They say when you have a stroke it is either the right side or left side that is effected[13:31] herman Bergson: Well...canbe any place in the brain.....[13:31] Mick Nerido: I stiil think the conscious part of the mind can freely choose but it is not completely free[13:32] herman Bergson: But I guess it is 50 -50 in which hemisphere it happens[13:32] Clerisse Beeswing: Right..why can't they just say hey your brain waves were interrupted by a stroke or something[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Mick....we are somewhere in between that observation....[13:33] herman Bergson: But for instance the law is still based on total responsebility for our actions.....[13:33] herman Bergson: There are amendements….for instance to take into account the mental condition of a criminal....[13:34] herman Bergson: But that is also only a recent addition to our sense of justice[13:35] herman Bergson: Neuroscience will reveal more and more about the functioning of the brain and thence our reasons of behaving[13:35] Mick Nerido: Free will could be something we are evolving toward not here quite yet[13:35] herman Bergson: I doubt that....[13:35] Mick Nerido: Why?[13:35] herman Bergson: The brain has its history..IS wired in a certain way.....[13:35] Clerisse Beeswing: free will might be part of the brain and heart[13:36] herman Bergson: You cant choose your talents for instance...you have them or not[13:36] herman Bergson: You cant choose not to have ADHD....[13:36] herman Bergson: You have it because your mother smoked a lot during her pregnancy….this affects the development of the brain of the fetus[13:36] Bejiita Imako: aa same with what kind of interests u have for example[13:36] Mick Nerido: We could build a free will computer like brain...[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....we are a preprogrammed machine ㋡[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ex I ve always been technical interested and so since a little kid[13:37] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): we can be shackled by both heredity and nurturing but educated enlightment can neutralize the nurtured deficiencies thru informed rationality[13:37] herman Bergson: And we try to figure our what it means to be conscious and in what sense we are free[13:38] herman Bergson: rationality.....an overestimated feature of the organism, named human being :-)[13:38] Mick Nerido: Freedom requires conscious choice[13:39] Alaya Kumaki: yes herman, the youth experience is very influent, because learned 2thing at a very early age, and now i do it witout thinking about it, as walking on ice slipping and taking over to the stand position, without falling,,(i skate at age 4) and trowing a paper ball in a basket(i did basket ball at 7),,not thinking anymore while trowing anything in a hole, it just goes by itself[13:39] herman Bergson: As I said.....[13:39] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): rationality being a selfish motivation[13:40] Alaya Kumaki: sorry for the sentence, it was longer than i thoughts, i couldn't see it fully in the chat box[13:40] herman Bergson: Maybe...in the situation that we think about the consequences of our actions....that we THEN have a situation of free choice[13:41] herman Bergson: you are excused Alaya ^_^[13:42] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes and which consequences benefit us the most[13:42] Mick Nerido: we seem to have a lot less freedom than I thought...[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Mick....it seems to be the case indeed....[13:42] Alaya Kumaki: so many thing get print into the brain, and we don't chooses them.. anymore[13:42] herman Bergson: Just think about how many things a day you do on autopilot...[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hmm well when I think about it, its often 1 my personality and 2 external influence that have some influence at löeast i think in how i make my decisions and so¨[13:43] Bejiita Imako: can be very possible[13:43] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): one must teach their children to think critically from a early age[13:43] herman Bergson: YEs Alaya....and all those imprints make how your brain processes the information....[13:43] Mick Nerido: I freely choose to be here today:)[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes[13:44] Alaya Kumaki: aristotle i do believe that many thing are god to do very early, but respecting the age level[13:44] Bejiita Imako: Im here cause IU like to be here, ints interesting[13:44] Alaya Kumaki: good*[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: your want for new knowledge made ya Mick )[13:44] Bejiita Imako: and also nice people here[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Mick... there is some free will in our actions...certainly....[13:45] herman Bergson: But where the unconscious will ends and the 'free' will begins...don't know :-)[13:45] Bejiita Imako: and like to learn new stuff[13:45] Mick Nerido: I treasure my freedom because it is so rare[13:45] Bejiita Imako: and get surprised now and then ㋡[13:46] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): those things that necessitate our survival are the only things that denies us total freedom[13:46] Mick Nerido: Did Beethoven freely choose to write music?[13:47] herman Bergson: maybe not....[13:47] Bejiita Imako: guess he did cause music was his main interest genetically influenced[13:47] herman Bergson: It just happened because his brain was for some reason wired in that way..[13:47] Bejiita Imako: or something like that[13:47] Bejiita Imako: like my interests and everyones[13:47] Bejiita Imako: determines what u want to be when u grow up[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes..like spirituality is in your genes....[13:48] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): or was he just smart of enough to recognize the wiring?[13:48] Bejiita Imako: aa must be same thing I guess sort of[13:48] herman Bergson: some people have no interest n spirituality...and this can be seen in their genes....[13:48] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): amen[13:48] herman Bergson: itis genetiically determined[13:49] herman Bergson: OK...gave you another nut to crack ^_^[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :)[13:49] herman Bergson: SO thank you for the nice debate...[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): crunching now[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ㋡[13:50] Bejiita Imako: nice again Herman ㋡[13:50] CONNIE Eichel: great class :)[13:50] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Thank you Professor[13:50] Clerisse Beeswing: Thank you professor[13:50] herman Bergson: Thank you CONNIE[13:50] Bejiita Imako: this get MORE AND MORE interesting every time[13:50] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`[13:50] Qwark Allen: very intersting as usual! thank you[13:50] Peli (peli.dieterle): ! ! ! Applause ! ! ![13:50] Mick Nerido: Very intersting and stimulating[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hehe¨[13:50] CONNIE Eichel: yw :)[1[13:50] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: thank you professr thanks all . have a great evening :)[13:51] herman Bergson: my pleasure Beertje[13:51] Bejiita Imako: cu soon[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:51] Cain Levasseur: Thank you very much professor[13:51] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight[13:52] Westie Easterman: Thank you Mister[13:52] Alaya Kumaki: in the gene? spirituality?[13:52] herman Bergson: yes....[13:52] Alaya Kumaki: did they found the gene?[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes Alaya....[13:52] Alaya Kumaki: whoa!!![13:52] CONNIE Eichel: bye all, have a good night :)[13:53] herman Bergson: I have to look it up who did that butit is a fact[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cu soon[13:53] Alaya Kumaki: i wish i can see what it look like[13:53] herman Bergson: Bye CONNIE[13:53] CONNIE Eichel: :)[13:53] Alaya Kumaki: its was very amazingly interesting[13:53] Alaya Kumaki: cause of my genes)[13:53] herman Bergson: Well....read it like this....[13:53] Alaya Kumaki: P[13:54] herman Bergson: the inclination to adopt spiritual views about life is stronger is some persons than in others[13:55] herman Bergson: and this willingness to uphold spiritual views is among other things also genetically determined[13:55] Alaya Kumaki: i can make a jokes, about that, like, a words games[13:55] Alaya Kumaki: yu know man like woman in pants others dont, depend of the jeans!![13:56] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): good bye all, thanks again Herman[13:56] herman Bergson: Bye Aristotle[13:56] Alaya Kumaki: gosh its getting dark here, i got to low my screen light, laptop screen light flashes my eyes...cant type anymore[13:57] Alaya Kumaki: see yu nexr time[13:57] Alaya Kumaki: thanks herman)[13:57] herman Bergson: ok Alaya[13:57] herman Bergson: Hi Melusina ㋡[13:57] Alaya Kumaki: byby[13:57] Melusina (melu.klaxon): hi Mr :)[13:58] Cain Levasseur: it was very interesting professor[13:58] herman Bergson: thank you Cain...[13:59] Cain Levasseur: in my law class we discuss the thing about free will[13:59] Cain Levasseur: but our professors try to avoid the subject[13:59] herman Bergson: I can imagine.....[14:00] herman Bergson: Philosophically there is no clear answer to the issue....[14:00] ρєтєя (peter820.little): Sorry, i wasnt here for the whole debate - Was anything mentioned about Determinsm? THat is quite an interesting theory which goes quite nicley in the debate of freewill.[14:00] herman Bergson: The neuroscience puts it again in a new perspective....[14:00] Cain Levasseur: yes, how we punish a person on one hand, and how we keep a secure society[14:01] Cain Levasseur: how we punish a non-free person i mean[14:01] herman Bergson: yes.....and neurologically it is already proven that we just LOVE to punish...:-)[14:01] Cain Levasseur: thats too bad[14:02] herman Bergson: Determinism is a big subject Peter....[14:02] ρєтєя (peter820.little) nods[14:02] ρєтєя (peter820.little): Just curious. :- )[14:02] herman Bergson: But because our premise is a materialistic one we have to deal with it[14:03] ρєтєя (peter820.little): Anyway, Take care, Thanks! :D[14:03] ρєтєя (peter820.little): Look forward to being able to attend more :)[14:04] herman Bergson: You are welcome Peter[14:05] Cain Levasseur: Well thanks for everything professor, see you next tuesday :)[14:05] herman Bergson: Ok Cain :-)
The title of this project is "The Mystery of the Brain". This means that it is not a 100% philosophical project, but an interdisciplinary one which involves, evolutionary psychology, neurosciences, cognitive psychology and philosophy.Our premise is a materialistic starting point: We are our brain. All what we call mental is produced by that brain. Of course we'll discuss this premise extensively, but not yet.With the topic of lie detection we enter a very sensitive area. What has been hidden inside our skull since the origins of mankind, can now be revealed.Everything that we regard as private, can be shown in an fMRI scan. Behind me you see the picture of the brain of a liar.There also other techniques, which use electrodes on de skull. And it is already discovered, that it takes 200 milliseconds more to prepare a lie in the brain than the truth.This neurorevolution raises serious questions about the relation between the state and the individual. Where begins our privacy? Can we be forced to undergo a fMRI scan?And what will happen in court? Has the accused to allow a fMRI scan to demonstrate if he is lying. And the witnesses, shouldn't they be scanned too? What about the concept of guilt. Suppose we scan the brain of a murderer and ask him : "Did you kill that person?" and he answers "No, I didn't" (even tho we have a video of his crime) and his brain shows no special activity at all, not the "lie pattern"?The more we know how the brain works, how our actions are caused by our brain, the more urgent become questions after personal autonomy, responsibility and free will.By inventing the subconscious Freud already questioned our free will and responsibility for our actions. The deeper we can look into our brain and see causes and effects, the bigger such questions become.Patricia Churchland, neurophilosopher at the University of San Diego, suggest that it is about time that we revise our metaphysical concept of free will.Her idea is that instead we should talk about self-control. A less vague quality, which as we can see, manifests itself in varying degrees.Neuroscientists can specify which brain structures are involved in the control of all kinds of behavior and how they can be weakened or reinforced.The activities concerning lie detection have gone commercial already. We keep on dreaming of unmasking the lie. Cephos is one of these companies, which will help you.On their homepage we read:- quoteCephos employs experienced professionals who are recognized as experts in their respective fields and are available to testify in court. We have developed the latest, most scientifically advanced, brain imaging techniques for scientifically accurate lie detection. The methods have been featured in international print, national television shows and we have been awarded U.S. patents based on our technology. The array of services we offer allows the most innovative approaches to uncover the truth. That's why law firms, corporations, and individuals turn to Cephos for professional, responsible, and dedicated services.-end quote.Go now to http://www.cephoscorp.com/ and watch the 4 minutes video. See for yourself…… and if you haven't had enough, have a look at http://www.brainwavescience.com/ or read this article http://www.damninteresting.com/brain-fingerprinting or http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/issues/mental_surveillance.htm The Discussion[13:25] herman Bergson: But have a look at that video...[13:26] herman Bergson: I'll wait the 4 minutes……………[13:31] herman Bergson: Did you look at the video?[13:31] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): yes[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: yes[13:31] Adriana Jinn: yes[13:31] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:31] herman Bergson: It scared me...[13:31] Anja Tigerfish: yes[13:31] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): why?[13:31] Mick Nerido: very scary...[13:32] herman Bergson: Well...first...the blood pumping theory….[13:32] herman Bergson: completely unclear what areas of the brain were active and why[13:32] Mick Nerido: A persons mind is private like his home . No?[13:32] herman Bergson: well Mick..as you saw....his wife lives there now too ^_^[13:33] Mick Nerido: lol[13:33] Bejiita Imako: i guess if u in general answer uncomfortable questions will give same activity in blood flow no matter if true or false[13:33] herman Bergson: Could be true Bejiita[13:33] Bejiita Imako: and thus give uncorrect conclusions[13:33] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): he already knew the questions[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes that is the procedure...[13:34] herman Bergson: the client studies the questions in advance[13:34] Bejiita Imako: that seemed a bit wierd too[13:34] herman Bergson: But what was so scary to me was that this couple came for an answer and in fact didnt get it...[13:35] herman Bergson: No no....it is good to have knowledge of the questions....the brain can't lie...[13:35] Bejiita Imako: meaning the company is a scam thats just after your wallet[13:35] herman Bergson: to some extend I would say yes...[13:36] herman Bergson: To give you a reason....[13:36] herman Bergson: when you swallow during answering the questions...your brain will become active[13:36] herman Bergson: and screws up the test because of the 'blood pumping'[13:36] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): omg[13:37] Adriana Jinn: well[13:37] Mick Nerido: Like lie dectators, some can fool it[13:37] herman Bergson: yes Beertje...you must absolutel lie still.....not a muscle may move[13:37] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): if you talk you move[13:38] herman Bergson: answers are given by mouseclick....know motoric part of the brain[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hmm yes also do fMRIs make awful loud banging noises due to the superconductors turning on and of and stressing the brain[13:38] Bejiita Imako: i thing even u need hearing protection as it can be as loud as 120 db[13:39] herman Bergson: Well.....at least you have seen a glimpse of our future...[13:39] Mick Nerido: Could this be used in capital punishment as a recourse of last resort?[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes...Mick.....[13:39] herman Bergson: The courts in the US do not yet accept this evidence....[13:39] Mick Nerido: If you lie the machine kills you[13:40] herman Bergson: that will be the 2.0 model Mick[13:40] Mick Nerido: lol[13:40] Bejiita Imako: haha[13:40] herman Bergson: we are just working on version 1.0[13:40] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): you laugh..but it COULD be possible[13:40] herman Bergson: oh yes....[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): who is to establsih that the machine is 100%accurate? there seems to be always an element of doubt[13:41] Mick Nerido: brave new world indeed[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: think so too Aristotle[13:41] herman Bergson: as I said Aristotle...when you swallow during the test all goes wrong...[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): especially in a capital punishment decision[13:41] Mick Nerido: best 2 out of 3 tests[13:41] herman Bergson: But look at the Brain Fingerprinting material....[13:42] herman Bergson: the brain produces certain waves when seeing something familiar[13:42] herman Bergson: so when you show the criminal the face of his victim the brain will react if he has seen that face[13:43] herman Bergson: But what if it is the face of his sister?[13:43] herman Bergson: And so on....[13:43] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I think commercially it will be very beneficial for marketers, in the legal arena I am extremely supect[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes can be anyone he knows then he react to[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): suspect[13:44] herman Bergson: However...this is our future....the brain will be the place to be...[13:44] Mick Nerido: I'll buy stock in Cephos[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Orwell was a smart man[13:45] herman Bergson: What was most remarkable was that as soon as someone had found something in lie detection....they went commercial...started a company...[13:45] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): Big Brother is watching you?[13:45] herman Bergson: Cephos and Brain Fingerprinting are the leading companie in the business...[13:45] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and manipulating you for sure, Beertje[13:45] Mick Nerido: there goes job interview lies[13:46] herman Bergson: yes indeed Mich....thy just put you in a scanner[13:46] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL who will find jobs now?[13:46] Mick Nerido: the ones who lie least?[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: or most[13:46] herman Bergson: no..only scanner operators[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: depends on job.[13:47] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): are they the best employees, tath is the philosophical question[13:47] Mick Nerido: Buy you way in[13:47] herman Bergson: Main question is privacy.....[13:47] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): and when Cephos is lying?[13:48] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): lol[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hehehe[13:48] herman Bergson: It will suffer of blood pumping Beertje :-)[13:48] herman Bergson: But just think about it.....[13:48] herman Bergson: what has been our personal domain since the beginning of mankind....[13:48] Mick Nerido: good for airline scanning[13:48] herman Bergson: is going to be invaded too[13:49] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): mankind has always methods to pull the truth out of you..[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Shall we all have an international barcode with the results of our last MRI for all to read our 'label'[13:50] herman Bergson: Was just thinking that Beertje....they dont need to torture the person anymore when they can use the fMRI scanner[13:50] Mick Nerido: good idea Aristotle[13:50] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): hmm..the only possitive thing[13:50] Bejiita Imako: as long u can get the technology working[13:51] Bejiita Imako: as said that damn "blood pumping" theory doesnt hold at all[13:51] Bejiita Imako: need some better stuff[13:51] herman Bergson: It scared me Bejiita[13:51] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): what about people with a high blood presure?[13:51] Bejiita Imako: or everyone will be accuseed to be a terrorist[13:51] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): wont need religion anymore,the barcode will say whether we are good or bad[13:51] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): all hail the MRI[13:51] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): no..ari...it just tells us if we are lying[13:52] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): telling the truth about our misbehave is the truth[13:52] Adriana Jinn: .)))) [13:52] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and the neuroscientists become the new clergy[13:52] herman Bergson: Well my friends......[13:53] herman Bergson: yes Aristotle...[13:53] Mick Nerido: Mind priests[13:53] herman Bergson: I never ended a lecture with an uneasy feeling[13:53] herman Bergson: but this time I do....[13:53] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): did you tell the truth about this Herman?[13:54] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL[13:54] Anja Tigerfish: hahahahaaaa[13:54] Bejiita Imako: hahaha[13:54] Ciska Riverstone laughs[13:54] herman Bergson: feels his blood pumping...[13:54] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): scan his barcode[13:54] herman Bergson: Yes I did Beertje[13:54] Mick Nerido: one of the best lectures I heard[13:54] Bejiita Imako: aaa indeed[13:54] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): smiles[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:54] Mick Nerido: No lie[13:54] Adriana Jinn: very interesting yes[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation...[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: interessting as always - thank you herman[13:55] herman Bergson: That is no lie![13:55] Bejiita Imako: but hope for sure this detector practice wont develop in a bad way[13:55] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)[13:55] Adriana Jinn: thanks much herman[13:55] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): very stimulating Professor, thank you[13:55] Bejiita Imako: noone is messing inside my mind without permission at least[13:55] Bejiita Imako: picking out whatever they want[13:56] Bejiita Imako: and not my harddrives either[13:56] Bejiita Imako: my stuff is my stuff[13:56] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I fear they mess with our minds straight from the cradle[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty, herman and class! was interesting, again once![13:56] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes[13:56] Bejiita Imako: very[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: Have a great day/ night everyone[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank you all...[13:56] Adriana Jinn: bye all and thanks[13:57] herman Bergson: Bye Adriana[13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): bye Adriana[13:57] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•[13:57] Bejiita Imako: hugs all[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: yeeahhh...huggy and kissy for all[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: see u hursday[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: *-*rOfl*-*[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: *-*r0fl*-*[13:57] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye bye:)[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: bybye all[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: Tschüss machs gut bis zum nächsten Mal [13:57] Anja Tigerfish: bye[13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I willsee if I can even TP now LOL[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: ______ ()*"*()___[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: _____("(~¸¸~)")___[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: Müde bin ich,geh zur Ruh,[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: mache meine Augen zu.[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: Erst das Rechte,dann das Linke,[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: Gute Nacht und winke winke [13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Good Bye![13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): gentle folks[13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Good Bye![13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Good Byeeeee!!![13:58] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): biss zum naechsten mahl Bergie[13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): EVERYBODY!!! :D[13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): thanks again Herman[13:58] herman Bergson: You are welcome, Aristotle
Where there are people, there are lies. And the most interesting thing is, that lying is the result of the evolution of our brain. And we are the best liars there are on earth.Research on primates has shown that it especially concerns -from an evolutionary point of view- the youngest parts of our brain. The six layers of the neo-cortex which are almost 80% of our brain.Don't worry ..we aren't the only sinners in this world. Apes are good at it too. That is, the larger the neo-cortext the more cunning the individual becomes.We lie all day. Big lies, small lies…whatever, we lie and sometimes tell the truth. But if you did not lie, you soon would be out of a job, divorced, hated by your friends. So it is the grease in our social life. If it weren't, we wouldn't be here as the result of evolution. It seems to be a survival tool.However, there is hardly a religion that approves of lying. But it is sooooooo human. In Genesis Adam and Eve lied to God. Their son Cain wasn't better. "Where is your brother, Cain"….."hhhmmmmm…I don't know". But God had seen it all and we all know the consequences.And that trick, to see it all, to see any lie, that certainly is one of our dreams. And maybe a brain scan can do the trick": "You can lie, but your brain can not!".Through the centuries every culture had its tricks to expose the liar and in our time the polygraph was the invention. Many European countries reject the machine as unreliable, but in the US it still is popular.However the National Academy of Sciences concluded that "[polygraph testing's] accuracy in distinguishing actual or potential security violators from innocent test takers is insufficient to justify reliance on its use in employee security screening in federal agencies?"Just have a look at the Antipolygraph.org site and you are in the midst of the ongoing debate about unmasking the liar and the bad job the polygraph does in this.But that machine is looking inward from the outside. The neuroscientist looks directly into your skull and observes the actions of your brain. Impossible to hide anything.The psychiatrist Daniel Langleben noticed that children with a hyperactivity problem had problems with lying. That is, they could lie perfectly, but had difficulty NOT to tell the truth.From Neuroscientist Uses Brain Scan to See Lies Formby Dina Temple-Raston, October 30, 2007. Note the date and realize how new this all is in neuroscience!"He thought this might have to do with their lack of impulse control, and from that, he thought it was possible that lying was essentially harder than telling the truth. One had to have good impulse control to lie, otherwise the truth came out first. That led to developing a way to track a lie as it is formed in the brain using a functional magnetic resonance imaging machine, or fMRI."The key point is that you need to exercise a system that is in charge of regulating and controlling your behavior when you lie more than when you just say the truth," Langleben said. "Three areas of the brain generally become more active during deception: the anterior cingulated cortex, the dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex and the parietal cortex."The anterior cingulated cortex is thought to be in charge of monitoring errors. The dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex is thought to control behavior. The parietal cortex processes sensory input.As he sees it, lies aren't created out of thin air. Instead, he believes your brain has to think of the truth and then make a decision, in a sense, to do the opposite. If you are instructed to say "the sky is green," Langleben believes your brain first thinks about the sky's true color, blue, before going with the falsehood. That process shows up on the fMRI scan."To conclude this introductory lie. Have you ever seen a MRI scanner? It is interesting, but also clear that the technology is still pretty rough. But beware when they have developed one not larger than a helmet.http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15744871Neuroscientist Uses Brain Scan to See Lies Formby Dina Temple-Raston, October 30, 2007http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03/noliemri/MRI Lie Detection
The Discussion[13:23] herman Bergson: thank you....[13:23] herman Bergson: This last statement Jerome has a philosophical catch :-)[13:23] Jerome Ronzales: ok[13:23] herman Bergson: so feel free ..the floor is yours[13:24] druth Vlodovic: don't you engage in a certain amount of processing before telling the truth?[13:24] Aya Beaumont: The problem is that fMRI used to be all that. More recent studies have shown that maybe the technique isn't that useful.[13:24] Jerome Ronzales: ill communicate it to the canary in the kitchen[13:24] Mick Nerido: Lying seems to be a social lubricant...[13:24] Aya Beaumont: Why? Because the areas shown are truly massive.[13:25] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I would think one weighs the cost/benefit of truth or lie before speaking either[13:25] BALDUR Joubert: rightly said so aya[13:25] Jerome Ronzales: :\[13:25] herman Bergson: Well Druth..it seems that the brain needs little action to generate the truth[13:25] Aya Beaumont: It's all well and good to say "it's in the anterior cingulate cortex"[13:26] Aya Beaumont: Understand that if each neuron would be an inch across, that would be the size of a continent.[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Aya...just look at the machine in the picture behind me...[13:26] BALDUR Joubert: may be we should think about lies are a survival phenomena?[13:26] druth Vlodovic: but a nervous or polite person might spend time rewriting the truth to say it in a way acceptable to the listener[13:26] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I would also tend to think that our survival instinct has to be involved in the mix[13:26] herman Bergson: So clumsy......but we manage :-)[13:26] Bejiita Imako: maybe[13:26] BALDUR Joubert: lying--you look for an advantage..[13:27] Aya Beaumont: Second problem: The areas they claim have a specific function actually have anything but. It is a simplification that stuck.[13:27] herman Bergson: Lies ARE a survival phenomenon Baldur..[13:27] Mick Nerido: A plausable lie is better than an implausible truth[13:27] BALDUR Joubert: right..but how and why....[13:27] Aya Beaumont: Third problem: These areas vary greatly between people.[13:27] Jerome Ronzales: not kidding, how do you explain to a canary that is water and food are over, neuroscience to a canary is genius. he will never noticest until he falls down in the dirty old water, right?[13:27] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and sometimes lying made be the less hostile way of saying 'it is none of your busy'[13:27] Jerome Ronzales: i hope its readable..[13:28] Mick Nerido: Lieing is creativity at work[13:28] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): surely Mick, it is artful[13:28] herman Bergson: Well... the lie as a feuture of our behavior...we need it ...that is clear...[13:29] Aya Beaumont: But no matter all that: There are still ways of cheating on it.[13:29] herman Bergson: Baldur asks...WHY...good question....[13:29] Aya Beaumont: First of all, make sure you don't lie. If you can convince yourself that something is true, you're good.[13:29] Jerome Ronzales: common the canary brain is so small he will live happily ever after[13:29] herman Bergson: Fact is ..that someone who only tells the truth gets kicked out...[13:29] Mick Nerido: The truth is not always the answer we want[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes..it is a complex issue..[13:30] Bejiita Imako: that seems to be the case indeed[13:30] Jerome Ronzales: canary*[13:30] Bejiita Imako: complex like hell[13:30] herman Bergson: you can philosophize about it for hours...until the canary is dead[13:30] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): How naked we would be if all our truths were known[13:30] Jerome Ronzales: not quite.[13:30] Mick Nerido: Lies could be wishful thinking[13:31] Aya Beaumont: As long as those in power were also exposed this way, that would be okay.[13:31] herman Bergson: More important for us is that neuroscience invaded the skull..gets inside....[13:31] druth Vlodovic: has there been a comparison of fMRI results between lying and other creative endevours?[13:31] herman Bergson: This means a whole new definition of privacy for instance[13:31] BALDUR Joubert: well. i think lying..for humans .. is a behaviour in despite of a opposite conviction..[13:32] Jerome Ronzales: the truth is that the cage that cells the bird is also the only thing he compreends, but like a harmless canary that doesn't happen to humans, and all humans have their defaults, unfortunally[13:32] Aya Beaumont: "Mister Obama, now that you run for your second term... these promises you have made, will you actually push them through?"[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Druth....definitely...[13:32] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Still I wonder where the decision is made to tell the truth of the lie[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: so where is his advantage.for survival..or..in society..[13:32] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): or*[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: smile which for me is the same..[13:32] herman Bergson: yeah good observation Aristotle...[13:32] druth Vlodovic: what were the similarities?[13:32] Jerome Ronzales: and its all for now..[13:33] Aya Beaumont: Oh... and there is a good way not to have to fear this so much...[13:33] Jerome Ronzales: lag[13:33] herman Bergson: JUST HOLD ON!!!![13:33] herman Bergson: First Druth....[13:33] Jerome Ronzales: i quit[13:34] Jerome Ronzales goes back to passive mode.[13:34] herman Bergson: Tests have shown the same MRI pictures of ordinary liars and 'professional' liers...same activity areas[13:35] herman Bergson: What si more fascinating is the remark of Aristotle...[13:35] herman Bergson: Philosophically almost the homunculus idea...[13:35] herman Bergson: there is a little man in your head pushing the buttons[13:35] Aya Beaumont: The entire problem can be solved by implanting something metallic into your skull.[13:35] Mick Nerido: It would be fun to see what a no lie world would be like[13:36] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes , the little man[13:36] herman Bergson: hmmm....just think about that Mick....[13:36] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): or woman :)[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: grin..can't you be a big liar ari?[13:36] Mick Nerido: There was a movie...[13:36] herman Bergson: I would meet you....and I would think..geez what ugly outfit...[13:37] herman Bergson: but I need to work with you....[13:37] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL[13:37] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes, and your cross eyes[13:37] Mick Nerido: Are there good and bad lies?[13:37] herman Bergson: So let me be honest Mick..you look ugly...come one we need to work on this job..:_)[13:37] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehe that dont sound to good indeed[13:38] Mick Nerido: Ugly truth[13:38] Aya Beaumont: With a metallic brain implant, you will die if they use fMRI on you[13:38] Aya Beaumont: Which should simplify the situation.[13:38] herman Bergson: Very nice Aya..I love that[13:38] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and our personal security would be fragile[13:38] Bejiita Imako: yes the superconductying magnets will rip them through the head slashing the head to pieces[13:38] druth Vlodovic: when I disagree with someone I try to start out by agreeing with them, I've never considered it lying...[13:38] druth Vlodovic: though it would be interesting to see if my brain does[13:39] Aya Beaumont: Bejita: No, what happens is they amass heat.[13:39] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I better get one of those implants[13:39] herman Bergson: Cool Druth..yes![13:39] Bejiita Imako: cause i ve seen what those magnets can do[13:39] : llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found[13:40] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): or I will just tell them I have one :)[13:40] Aya Beaumont: yeah, it's no joke.[13:40] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I will lie about it[13:40] Aya Beaumont: You can make a CT scan first to check, Aristotle.[13:40] herman Bergson: ok...this was just the introduction to lying...[13:40] Mick Nerido: Its better that we can't read each others minds[13:41] herman Bergson: next time well discuss the philosophical and ethical implications...[13:41] Bejiita Imako: interesting subject[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :) if they find out the truth I will be in trouble[13:41] Bejiita Imako: and so muct TRUE fact in it as well[13:41] Mick Nerido: LOL[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:41] herman Bergson: So...thank you for your participation...[13:41] herman Bergson: This is no lie...scan my brain..:-)[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Thank you Professor, if you are being truthful[13:41] BALDUR Joubert: well..as our av's are lying about how we look..[13:41] Bejiita Imako: haha[13:42] herman Bergson: class dismmissed :-)[13:42] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :)[13:42] Aya Beaumont: This statement is a lie.[13:42] Bejiita Imako: nice again as usual this [13:42] Aya Beaumont: Thank you, Herman.[13:42] herman Bergson: The paradox Aya..nice one ^_^[13:42] Florimell Farstrider: Lying? are you implying I'm not an actual musketeer? ;)[13:42] Mick Nerido: Good class, thanks[13:42] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): If I say I tell only lies, can you believe it?[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle...for that is a paradox as old as the greeks[13:43] Florimell Farstrider: of course not. I'd be a fool to believe such a notorious liar.[13:43] Bejiita Imako: no cause then that statement would also be a lie[13:43] Aya Beaumont: The question is if you can read things from memory instead.[13:43] druth Vlodovic: thank you herman, it was interesting as always[13:43] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): indeed, paraphrased by yours truly[13:43] herman Bergson: the paradox is easy to solve....[13:43] Aya Beaumont: But any way it works: there may well be people who can lie without being detected.[13:44] herman Bergson: the statement is self referential...[13:44] herman Bergson: that is the faulty trick[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I would think that psychopaths could. Aya[13:44] herman Bergson: I dont know Aya...[13:44] Aya Beaumont: If so, these people will be the ones reaching the top.[13:44] Aya Beaumont: We are all better off if everyone can lie.[13:45] herman Bergson: From a neurobiological point of view I would say NO[13:45] herman Bergson: There is the problem of people believing their own leis...[13:45] Aya Beaumont: Herman, you have no way of knowing, unless you can prove a negative?[13:46] Aya Beaumont: They MAY exist. And thus, believing that they can not is extremely dangerous.[13:46] Florimell Farstrider: I struggled so see what Nietzsche meant when he exclaimed 'Why truth? Why not untruth?'. I'm beginning to come around to his way of thinking. The act of lying is in many ways more remarkable than truth-telling, so why isn't lying held in higher regard?[13:46] herman Bergson: I said ..my guess is No....but people believing their own lies...[13:46] herman Bergson: No idea how thebrain would look like in a scan then..[13:46] Aya Beaumont: As I said, the map is far from complete.[13:47] herman Bergson: this is all so new,Aya....developments siince 2006...[13:47] Aya Beaumont: We have only vague ideas as to what those areas do.[13:47] Aya Beaumont: Indeed.[13:47] herman Bergson: yes so true....[13:47] Mick Nerido: some day we may evolve beyond lying[13:47] herman Bergson: we are still scratching the surface[13:47] druth Vlodovic: or evolve to the point we no longer need truth[13:47] Aya Beaumont: Until we DO know, and that's at least decades away (like fusion), let's not make plans for a no-lie society.[13:47] BALDUR Joubert: smile scatchin g the surface.that is philosophy:)[13:48] herman Bergson: But evenin scratching the durface we are flabbergasted about what we discover[13:48] Aya Beaumont: Absolutely.[13:49] herman Bergson: Thank you all...[13:49] herman Bergson: :-)[13:49] Aya Beaumont: Thank you.
Justine Meaux, research director of BrightHouse Neurostrategies Group, a division of BrightHouse, said neuromarketing helps companies understand customers' true desires better than the standard marketing approach, focus groups."A lot of what motivates our behavior occurs below the level of conscious awareness," said Meaux, a neuroscientist. "We give [companies] insight into how to develop relationships with consumers."The Atlanta consulting firm BrightHouse has stirred up some controversy in 2004 when neuromarketing was born. Peeking in the brain to control the consumer…….it scared people.- quote"It's wrong to use medical technology for marketing and not for healing," said Gary Ruskin, executive director of Commercial Alert, a Portland, Oregon -based nonprofit organization that has worked to bar advertising from schools and other public areas. "We have epidemics of obesity, diabetes, alcoholism, gambling and smoking -- all tied to marketing. Any increase in the effectiveness of advertising can be devastating to the public."-end quote [from cognitiveliberty.org]Neuromarkting seems to be effective. The standard procedure of marketing is to have a test group to evaluate a new product.For a certain product the test group in the US said "Yeah , great product!" . Brain scans in the UK showed that the product didn't appeal to the consumer. The product was put on the market in the US and it became a major flop.Gemma Calvert, director of UK-based Neurosense, has also demonstrated that the context in which an advertisement message is shown, is crucial for the message.By observing the response of the brain areas that control emotions she could see how the perception of the message was more or less effective.A campaign for the Red Cross, shown in a commercial break in an episode of South Park is downright harmful for the way the individual brain in front of the screen looks at the message.The idea behind neuromarketing is that we get access to information about the consumer and his drives, which information can not be presented voluntarily by the consumer, simply because he himself has no access to that information. And here I refer to the example of the product release I mentioned earlier in this lecture.In 2004 neuromarketing methods were used to measure how Republicans and Democrates responded to propaganda material.It was revealed that brains of Democrats were more annoyed by messages about danger and threats than Republican brains. Democrates reacted stronger on messages about using power than Republicans.Some people find neuromarketing creepy, but Read Montague, the man of the Pepsi test, answers, that neuromarketing, in fact the research on decision-making and communication, won't turn us into "mega-shopping zombies".On the contrary, it creates insight in why we buy things, why we love shopping and how we can influence people with messages, also cultural ones.But just listen to Jonathan Moreno, president of the American Society for Bioethics and Humanities and director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Virginia.- quote"It kind of distorts the marketplace relationship," Moreno said. "There's supposed to be a level playing field between a buyer and a seller. But [with neuromarketing], there isn't an opportunity for the consumer to create a screen against the information. It violates the notion that it's possible for the buyer to beware."- end quoteSo the question is: neuromarketing….is it good or evil…?The Discussion
[13:21] Qwark Allen: have both sides it seems[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you....[13:22] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): is is my opinion that is the public is educated about neuro marketing and aware of it we will be ok and it wont work as well[13:22] Mick Nerido: It seems it helps us get what we really want but might not know it[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): maybe nick[13:23] Qwark Allen: l ☺ ☻ ☺ l[13:23] Qwark Allen: lol[13:23] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:23] herman Bergson: Looks like it Mick ^_^[13:23] Bejiita Imako: yep[13:23] Qwark Allen: that wasn`t very reassuring[13:23] Bejiita Imako: in some ways at least[13:23] Mick Nerido: Why?[13:24] Bejiita Imako: however as i said before I buy only the stuff i know I really ant and that is good[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): might not be what we really need just what we want[13:24] Florimell Farstrider: Seems like there's a very strong drive with marketing in general to get past our inhibitions, to break them down..[13:25] Bejiita Imako: I dont buy cheap crap that empty my wallet and have a quality that is just a blyff to what the commercial say[13:25] Clerisse Beeswing: Gosh! Think of the tobacco companys getting some kind of neuromarketing going on..scary[13:25] Mick Nerido: A company should not waste money making things no one really wants[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Flori.....the neuro -approach does so[13:25] herman Bergson: No Mick indeed....that is one of the arguments in favor of neuromarketing[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): don't you think they haven't clarisse???[13:26] Bejiita Imako: if someone want me to buy a product it better be as good and useful as they say[13:26] Clerisse Beeswing: Yeah mass advertisement day and night..your right gemma[13:26] herman Bergson: Well another argument is...[13:26] Florimell Farstrider: What this will do to us, if successful, is undermine our social interactions. It's antisocial to not have inhibitions.[13:26] herman Bergson: that when you know how the brain responds to advertisements[13:27] herman Bergson: You can take measures to block some ...[13:27] herman Bergson: Like now liquor and tabacco advertisements are forbidden on TV in the Netherlands[13:28] herman Bergson: You don't need neuromarketing to know how we respond to tobacco and alcohol tho ^_^[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: well tobacco is here - doesn't seem to help[13:28] Qwark Allen: at a long time in portugal[13:28] Mick Nerido: We are not talking advertising but more effective focus groups[13:29] herman Bergson: well Mick..as I gave the example of the credit card ad....[13:29] Bejiita Imako: was shopping today and there they often let people try out stuff when they have some new tasty thing and then i can check for myself if I like the stuff[13:29] Bejiita Imako: that a good thing[13:29] Bejiita Imako: and If i like it I buy it[13:29] Clerisse Beeswing: if it taste good..why not[13:30] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:30] herman Bergson: The more philosophical point in all this is free will....[13:30] Bejiita Imako: don't know what the stuff is called in english[13:30] Bejiita Imako: ill check[13:30] Bejiita Imako: that is bought today[13:30] Mick Nerido: If a product is harmful like tobacco it should be banned from ads[13:30] Bejiita Imako: aaa true[13:30] Bejiita Imako: eew tobacco not my thing[13:30] herman Bergson: When they peek into our brain and manipulate messages....are we free consumers?[13:30] Bejiita Imako: but a nice rum or whiskey is lice as long u dont drink too much[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it is not always products... it is also ideas[13:31] Bejiita Imako: thats nice things[13:31] Mick Nerido: I think yes, we still have free will[13:31] Clerisse Beeswing: no we are not free..we are like slaves[13:31] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes[13:31] Bejiita Imako: that too[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...like in 2004 in the Clinton campaign[13:31] Florimell Farstrider: were we ever free consumers? =)[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: think so too gemma[13:32] herman Bergson: Well Flori...Free will will be an issue in coming lectures[13:32] Mick Nerido: We can be manipulated but we can also learn to stop it[13:32] herman Bergson: Some neuroscientists already claim that we have no free will[13:32] herman Bergson: yes Mick...that is exactly what they say.....[13:32] Bejiita Imako: aaa now i found the word[13:33] herman Bergson: The better insight in how our brain opperates the better we can deal with it[13:33] Clerisse Beeswing: What took over our free will? Our learned experiences[13:33] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): exactly my point before[13:33] Bejiita Imako: what i bought was a potato pancake mix, in swedish we call it "raggmunk"[13:33] herman Bergson: No Clerisse....[13:33] herman Bergson: Research has shown...[13:33] Florimell Farstrider: We're probably free to the extent that we don't know what compels us...[13:34] Mick Nerido: True[13:34] herman Bergson: that when you say NOW I gone raise my hand...[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ah[13:34] herman Bergson: half a second before you showed this conscious act of saying so[13:34] herman Bergson: the brain had already set all in motion....[13:34] Mick Nerido: Too wierd[13:34] herman Bergson: motor neurons etc.[13:34] Clerisse Beeswing: hmm so its so deep[13:34] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes...[13:35] Bejiita Imako: interesting for sure[13:35] herman Bergson: I'll spend some lectures on this subject definitely[13:35] herman Bergson: It is very weird....[13:35] Mick Nerido: free will an illusion of the mind?[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes...Mick....[13:35] Clerisse Beeswing: wow never thought that[13:36] herman Bergson: What we call our consciousness is just a babblebox ..telling stories afterwards ^_^...as they say[13:36] Mick Nerido: than what is making us do what we do?[13:36] herman Bergson: Well....there are several answers to that Mick..... long story..[13:36] herman Bergson: good for a few lectures ^_^[13:37] Mick Nerido: It all happens so fast in our mins who can tell[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes...and this thing with neuromarketing....[13:37] herman Bergson: When you see an ad you have the feeling thta you can say NO....[13:38] herman Bergson: But brainscans just SHOW what you gonna say...if you simplify ithe situation...[13:38] Mick Nerido: I know that feeling,lol[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:38] herman Bergson: Your brain does the job….and is beyond your control[13:39] Mick Nerido: We need a droid to filter stuff for us[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:39] Bejiita Imako: heheh[13:39] Qwark Allen: ehehhe[13:39] Florimell Farstrider: I think it was Freud who first did experiments with this. Hed use hypnotic suggestion to make people do something specific and absurd on cue after the trance. Then he'd ask them why they did it. They always rationalised their behavior, or tried to. they never sad 'I have Noooooo! idea why I just did tat.'[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: Who does the programming for it?[13:40] Qwark Allen: is there anyone with some kind of control?[13:40] Mick Nerido: Nice point[13:40] Qwark Allen: are there laws about it?[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes it is a situation like that Flori[13:40] herman Bergson: Interesting question Ciska...who does the programming....[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but there is a rational answe for that we never do what we think is wrong under hypnosis[13:40] Qwark Allen: seems the ones that should do the regulamention, are the ones that ude it most[13:41] herman Bergson: An important part is done by evolution...[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and those people trusted their doctor![13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): shame on him[13:41] Qwark Allen: use*[13:41] herman Bergson: then our education[13:41] herman Bergson: and then outr genetic heritage[13:42] herman Bergson: Well...I hope you still experience yourself as free minds ^_^[13:42] Qwark Allen: l ☺ ☻ ☺ l[13:42] Qwark Allen: lol[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hahaha[13:42] herman Bergson: So think about it...[13:42] Clerisse Beeswing: lol..so to speak..yes[13:42] Bejiita Imako: well I still do anyway[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hahah[13:42] herman Bergson: And thank you for your participation...:-)[13:42] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^[13:42] Qwark Allen: i wonder to what i`m susceptable[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:42] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`[13:42] Qwark Allen: thank you[13:43] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:43] Clerisse Beeswing: Wow! Thank you professor[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: Thank You Herman :)[13:43] Mick Nerido: Free , thanks[13:43] Bejiita Imako: great once again[13:43] Qwark Allen: very interesting and a opening of the mind[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:43] herman Bergson: My pleasure Clerisse[13:43] Bejiita Imako: indeed[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you thursday i think[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: bye everyone - have a great day/ evening[13:44] Bejiita Imako: son[13:44] Bejiita Imako: cu soon[13:44] herman Bergson: Have fun everyone ^_^[13:45] herman Bergson: The class looks great with the new design of the seats[13:45] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes[13:45] Bejiita Imako: good work[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:46] herman Bergson: thank you Bejiita :-)[13:46] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon
