Thursday, February 27, 2014

512: Indian epistemology and logic

When we look at the development of the mind from birth, we see that it goes through distinctive stages. The first thing you discover is that there is you and an external reality which is not you.

The second stage is that you have no clue what this outside reality is, how it works, what it does, except that you experience that is does all kinds of things.

You come to the conclusion that it all is pure magic. You move and a tree in the wind moves too. So it lives like you live….with a mind. When you are three years old, everything lives and feels, from teddybear to goblin.

There seems to be a parallel in the development of the mind of the homo sapiens. When he experienced consciousness and his relation with an external reality, he didn’t understand and concluded to what we now call animism. The world is a living thing like he himself was.

Then he invents gods and all knowledge about the gods and the world is revealed. A next step could be that these revelations are written down in a book  and so on.

But the next step is that he begins to wonder how he really can KNOW things and then epistemology is born. And it is amazing to see how philosophy thus has developed.

That is what happened in India. Some began to question these gods and revelations as the true way to obtain knowledge.

Thus epistemology became primary in the sense that it must be engaged in prior to attempting any other philosophical endevour.

There is, however, a difference.  In Western philosophy truth and falsity are usually ascribed to statements, propositions, or beliefs. In the Indian tradition truth and falsity are ascribed to a cognition or an awareness

The limits of one’s metaphysical claims are always inviolably set by the parameters established by one’s epistemology. Before one can make claims, one must establish the basis on which such claims can be proven and justified. 

The Indians went so far as to concede, that if one wishes to debate with an opponent, one must first find a common epistemological ground upon which to argue. 

Failing that, no meaningful debate can take place. Since one’s ontology, which is one’s theory about what exists, depends on what one’s epistemology makes allowable, 

many Indian schools tried to include things in their list of valid means of knowledge, that would facilitate their claims. 

Hindus, for instance, considered their Scriptures to be valid means of knowledge, but other Indians, such as Buddhists and Jains, rejected the authority of the Hindu Scriptures. 

Therefore, if a Hindu debated with a Buddhist or Jain, he or she could not appeal to the authority of Hindu Scriptures, but had to find common epistemological ground. 

In the case of Buddhism that would be perception and inference; in the case of Jainism, it would only be inference. 

All schools except Jains accepted perception as a valid means of knowledge, meaning that sensory knowledge is valid, if qualified as non-erroneous or non-hallucinatory. 

What is not presently observed but is in principle observable can be known by inference. Inference or deduction, therefor, were an important matter.

This implies that the Indian philosophers not only wondered about the question, how can I KNOW, but also, if in a debate we come to a conclusion, how do I know it is a necessary conclusion.

One text dating from the third century BCE and important to tracing the development of logic in classical India is a Buddhist work, which exhibits awareness of the fact that the form of argument is crucial to its being good.

In the Caraka-samhita, a medical text (300 - 500 BC),  is found in a passage, which defines an argument to have five parts: the proposition (pratijña ), the ground or reason (hetu ), the corroboration (drótanta ), the application (upanaya ), and the conclusion (nigamana ).

This could be an example:
Proposition    : The mind is not eternal
Ground          : because it is detectable by the senses
Corroberation: It is like a pot
Application    :  As a pot is detectable by the senses, 
                        and is non eternal, so is the mind 
                        detectable by the senses.
Conclusion    : Therefore, the mind is not eternal

It is amazing to see, how thousands of years ago the homo sapiens already tried to figure out what goes on in his mind.
And if you then realize, that we have computers now………

Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
From Africa to Zen, R.C. Solomon & K.M. Higgins

511: Indian philosophy and the Greeks

When you look behind me on the maps, one tells you the the length of the road between Taxila and Athens and the other shows where Alexander the Great has been.

Indian contacts with the Western world date back to prehistoric times. Trade relations, preceded by the migration of peoples, inevitably developed into cultural relations.  

This view is not only amply supported by both philological and archaeological evidence, but by a vast body of corroborative literary evidence as well: 

Vedic literature and Jewish chronicles, and the accounts of Greek historians all suggest contact between India and the West. 

Taxila was a great center of commerce and learning. Buddha is reputed to have studied in Taxila. Pythagorean and Platonic philosophy show influences of Indian thought and spirituality.

"It is more likely that Pythagoras ( died about 495 BC) was influenced by India than by Egypt. Almost all the theories, religions, philosophical and mathematical taught by the Pythagoreans, were known in India in the sixth century B.C., 

and the Pythagoreans, like the Buddhists, refrained from the destruction of life and eating meat and regarded certain vegetables such as beans as taboo. 

It seems that the so-called Pythagorean theorem of the quadrature of the hypotenuse was already known to the Indians in the older Vedic times, and thus before Pythagoras. “, according to H. G. Rawlinson ( 1902 +,  English scholar and historian). 

The notion that spirits or souls of dead persons may inhabit or "possess" animals or plants is widespread among both ancient and modern peoples in many parts of the world. 

But the belief that the life-force or soul of the individual passes from life to life, inhabiting a different physical body in each existence, is a much rarer doctrine. 

Known as metempsychosis or transmigration of souls, it is found in developed form in the ancient world only in India and Greece. 

Metempsychosis appears in rudimentary form in the Upanishads, and subsequently became incorporated into the ethical teaching of all the major Indian thought-systems down to the present day.

But in both India and Greece, metempsychosis in its characteristic and fullest development was a decisively ethical doctrine. The present status of every living being, 

whether human or animal, man or woman, high- or low-caste, was believed to be the direct result of the quality of its behavior in previous earthly existences.

Another issue, which amused me to discover, was, that what I was told as a child already dates back to the 8th century B.C. and first came to history's attention in the person of Mahavira (ca. 540-468 B.C.).

A doctrine of Jainism teaches that each living creature possesses a material soul (jiva) which is originally pure and colorless, but through the activities of life becomes contaminated by karmic matter. 

Every act committed by man or beast is believed to produce karmic coloring on the soul-light colors for virtuous deeds, medium tones for minor offenses, with the darkest shades being reserved for serious transgressions. 

Since dark-colored stains are supposed to weigh down the soul, while lighter ones allow it to rise, the light-colored souls will be reborn correspondingly as gods or humans, the darker ones as animals or plants, or as inhabitants of Hell.

Jainism is an Indian religion that prescribes a path of non-violence towards all living beings and emphasizes spiritual independence and equality between all forms of life. It still has millions of believers in India.

I was told, that I as a catholic boy, had a soul and that this soul was white. However, every time I sinned, there would appear a black spot on my white soul.

If my soul would be completely black, I would go straight to hell. Jainists believe, that non-violence and self-control are the means by which they can obtain a pure and colorless soul.

I was told, that I could clean my soul again by a confession and penance.

The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^
[13:20] Zanicia: Amazing
[13:20] Nectanebus: nice
[13:20] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:20] Corronach: i will take your confession now. ;)
[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes..if you mean the Jainist doctrine about the colors of the soul, ZANICIA
[13:20] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:20] Zanicia: doesn't that all go to show how very dangerously vulnerable the human mind is?!!!!
[13:21] Nectanebus: I like how you touched on the Jainist view of positive vs negative karma, as that contrasts with the Buddhist view of "all attachment is colourless karma"
[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you Corronach....after class plz :-)
[13:21] CorronachCorronach giggles
[13:21] herman Bergson: In what way vulnerable, ZANICIA ?
[13:22] Velvet: And that's why I'm a recovering Catholic!
[13:22] Velvet: I'm more attracted to the Buddhist view.
[13:22] Zanicia: we sponge up doctrines, theories, thoughts. Often, as yourself, when most vulnerable, as young people
[13:23] herman Bergson: We love fairytales...
[13:23] Velvet: there's a reason you're trained early
[13:23] .: Beertje :.: remarkable that what we have learned is taught since the 8 cent BC...
[13:23] Nectanebus: I think it's interesting to see the parallel's with the metempsychosis, but I'd venture the idea could have come to Greeks independently of India.
[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes surprised me too Beertje
[13:23] Nectanebus: sorry, typo
[13:24] herman Bergson: Well....
[13:24] herman Bergson: how the exchange of knowledge took place and to what extend is a vague story....
[13:24] Velvet: Beertje, I'm still wrapping my mind around that/
[13:24] .: Beertje :.: so the bible took several things from ancient believes
[13:24] herman Bergson: Oh yes Beertje, like the Greek did too
[13:25] Velvet: The Bible took many things from many authors.
[13:25] herman Bergson: It is not surprising that Greek philosophy emerged in Asia Minor...
[13:25] Areyn Laurasia: if black is the absence of color... then the pur and colorless soul would be black?
[13:25] herman Bergson: It was the Western border of the Persian Empire of Darius I
[13:25] Nectanebus: ALex made waves, after all haha
[13:25] Areyn Laurasia: *pure
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: or transparent
[13:26] herman Bergson: 500 BC...
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: maybee
[13:26] Nectanebus: @Areyn: for Buddhists, perhaps.
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: transparent is also lack of color bu the object itself
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: by
[13:26] herman Bergson: while the eastern border was Punjab....Taxila...
[13:27] herman Bergson: How much ideas came from where we'll never know for certain
[13:27] .: Beertje :.: maybe it's one big melting pot:)
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: can be
[13:27] herman Bergson: But Hindu web pages are pretty chauvinistic about Indian wisdom through the centuries
[13:27] Nectanebus: more so now, methinks
[13:27] Zanicia: I shall look differently next time I see a plate of beans!
[13:27] Nectanebus: (the melting pot)
[13:27] .: Beertje :.: everyone chooses what he or she could use at that time
[13:28] herman Bergson: got situations that a whole regiment of Indian soldiers were stationed i Asia Minor for instance...
[13:29] herman Bergson: and those were not only illiterate people I guess
[13:29] herman Bergson: another source is Buddhist missionary activity...
[13:29] herman Bergson: Wandering holy men..shamans.....
[13:30] Nectanebus: That's another thing: the beans seemed to be an inherently Platonic restriction, no mention of it anywhere to my knowledge apart from Yazidism
[13:30] herman Bergson: I have no idea what is wrong with beans :-)
[13:30] Zanicia: did they think the beans were inhabited by souls?
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hehee
[13:31] .: Beertje :.: maybe they contain the beginning of life?
[13:31] Areyn Laurasia: perhaps because beans are seeds to a life
[13:31] CorronachCorronach ponders the beans
[13:31] Nectanebus: who was it that thought farts made one lose part of their soul? I'm sure that was Greek thing....
[13:31] Corronach: you must be on to something...
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: beans beans good for your heart, the more you eat the more you fart
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: lol
[13:31] Zanicia: never heard of that one!
[13:31] herman Bergson: lol...that could be an explanation Nectanebus :-))
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: on the other hand not happens when i eat beans fortunaetley
[13:32] Nectanebus: actually, that was directly related to the lecture
[13:32] herman Bergson: But I wondered myself why exactly BEANS are a taboo
[13:32] Nectanebus:
[13:32] Nectanebus: CIcero was worrie about it too
[13:32] herman Bergson: also because of beans Nectanebus?
[13:33] Nectanebus: yup
[13:33] Nectanebus: I knew this rang a bell
[13:33] Nectanebus: Night Junkies was what got me on to it
[13:33] .: Beertje :.: beans are precious..they are the beginning of life..when you seed them you can feed the world
[13:33] Nectanebus: they mention it in that
[13:33] Nectanebus: I love me some beans
[13:33] Nectanebus: But I'm a soulless sort.
[13:33] herman Bergson: you see that there must have been some influence from India on Greek philosophy...
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: seems that can be the case
[13:34] herman Bergson: Some like to take the view that everything began from scratch with the Greek
[13:34] Velvet: is that because it's the earliest writings?
[13:35] herman Bergson: But if you look at the map, the ideas, you can conclude differently
[13:35] Zanicia: Prior to all this I had low regard for Indian culture....that shows my ignorance, I've discovered!
[13:35] herman Bergson: It was Velvet...but yet a complex situation....
[13:35] Velvet: the same idea can pop up in different places independently
[13:35] Zanicia: Fascinating to delve deeper
[13:35] herman Bergson: you need people who are able to translate!
[13:36] Nectanebus: Greek's nowhere near the earliest writings, I've got friends that study Sumer haha
[13:36] Velvet: translations, hand-copied manuscripts, errors
[13:36] .: Beertje :.: but is such a translation reliable?
[13:36] Velvet: sure, Nectanebus!
[13:36] herman Bergson: Sanskrit was one of the very first written languages
[13:36] Velvet: not reliable at all
[13:36] Velvet: but if you cross-reference multiple copies
[13:37] Velvet: you can find commonalities
[13:37] herman Bergson: You just have to imagine how the world looked like in those days.....
[13:37] Zanicia: yes you said before, Herman, I was amazed to hear it
[13:37] herman Bergson: How do you study a foreign language???
[13:37] herman Bergson: I have no idea how they did it....
[13:38] herman Bergson: But there was for instance the ...what was the name Panini Grammer about 500BC....
[13:38] Nectanebus: methodology is something odd with language, trial and error for a large part
[13:38] herman Bergson: The rules of a language on paper!
[13:39] Zanicia: something similar to code-breaking
[13:39] Velvet: no way. you made that up. Grammer?
[13:39] herman Bergson: I guess so, yes.....
[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes Velvet...
[13:39] Velvet: Panini>
[13:39] Velvet: lol
[13:39] herman Bergson: I may have spelled the name wrong
[13:39] Nectanebus: yeah, there's similarities to code-breaking
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:40] .: Beertje :.: sounds to me like...broodje aap:)))
[13:40] Velvet: Rosetta Stone!
[13:40] Zanicia: ah yes of course
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:40] Nectanebus: AH yes, I hate them for not doing Ukrainian courses
[13:40] herman Bergson: no th ename is Panini :-)
[13:41] Areyn Laurasia:āṇini
[13:41] Velvet: no Nectanebus, literally the Rosetta Stone
[13:41] herman Bergson: exactly Areyn...thnx :-)
[13:41] Areyn Laurasia: you're welcome
[13:41] Velvet: it was Greek and Sumerian and a third language
[13:41] Zanicia: The stone was a code-breaker, so-to-speak
[13:41] Velvet: it decoded a lot for us
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: aaaa yes for the hieroglyphs
[13:42] herman Bergson: Egyptian was the third language on the stone
[13:42] Velvet: yes, thank you
[13:42] Nectanebus: oh, yeah, sorry, I get you. I thought you meant the language courses on CD-ROMs haha
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hahaha
[13:42] Velvet: well, it's a great name for language courses!
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes there is also a thing called that
[13:42] herman Bergson: hahaha...That II use to learn Spanish Nectanebus ^_^
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: also familiar
[13:42] Velvet: great marketing plan
[13:42] Zanicia: yes there is! Haha
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: indeed velvet
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: its like Nero Burning rom software
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: same type of name use
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: sort of
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: nero is too bloated with other stuff nowadays though
[13:43] herman Bergson: Guess we now are far away from India :-)
[13:43] Bejiita Imako:
[13:43] Velvet: we tend to wander!
[13:43] herman Bergson: What I mentioned today was not yet the real philosophy
[13:44] herman Bergson: but more some religious ideas
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:44] herman Bergson: But they can not be ignored
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: everything come together i guess
[13:44] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita...
[13:45] Velvet: it makes me crazy that religion is so irrational and imaginary
[13:45] Velvet: and yet tied up with everything
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:45] Velvet: there's no solid ground
[13:45] herman Bergson: especially because some of the Indian philosophy is a kind of "protest" against all this religious mumbo jumbo
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: thats true
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:46] Nectanebus: There's no solid ground in most science either though, unless you're talking math
[13:46] herman Bergson: But yet it is interesting to read pages on certain Hindu sites
[13:46] Velvet: math is the same as all sciences
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: math is the language of nature
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: if you can calculate something it is true
[13:46] Areyn Laurasia: it's all related
[13:46] Velvet: math is more than calculations. 
[13:46] Velvet: It's patterns
[13:46] Velvet: observations
[13:47] Velvet: projections
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: also what allows a computer to descripe everything we see in natre since it can be made into mathematics
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: nature
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: picture sound ect
[13:47] herman Bergson: Math is not a complete system at all....
[13:47] herman Bergson: there are still unsolvable paradoxes...
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: can be turned to numbers all of it
[13:47] Velvet: math is not about numbers
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hmm thats true as well
[13:47] Velvet: numbers are tools
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: math is mystical
[13:48] Zanicia: mystical in my case!
[13:48] herman Bergson: I would prefer a pragmatic approach of math here....
[13:48] herman Bergson: In most works....
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: mostly is logical and solvable
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:48] herman Bergson: after that you are free to speculate on metaphysical backgrounds
[13:49] Velvet: math is logical an solvable to a point. After that, it's like any other science.
[13:49] Nectanebus: pi, the golden ratio, and fibonacci (sp?) are about as far into math as I go, I'm a language person haha
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:49] Areyn Laurasia: it's actually not fibonacci's
[13:50] Nectanebus: really?
[13:50] Areyn Laurasia: yeah, came from Indian Pingala
[13:51] herman Bergson: Well...for today...look into the history of the relation between INdia and Greece...
[13:51] Velvet: Fibonacci is known for defining something that has existed forever.
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: aaa the fibonacci series
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: the next number is sum of the 2 previous ones
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: in a number series
[13:51] Nectanebus: yup
[13:51] Nectanebus: I'm a fan of spirals
[13:51] Nectanebus: and fractals
[13:51] herman Bergson: Ok...think about that too :-)
[13:51] Areyn Laurasia:
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 ect
[13:52] Zanicia: what are you following this with, Herman?
[13:52] herman Bergson: I reckon it is a good moment to conclude our discussion here ^_^
[13:52] Nectanebus: ok, thanks Herman.
[13:52] Areyn Laurasia: :)
[13:52] herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll dig into epistemological and logical issues of Indian philosophy
[13:53] Zanicia: Ok good
[13:53] Areyn Laurasia: seems science has a way of moving around geographically due to politics and culture...
[13:53] herman Bergson: And an important part is also the Materiaists in INdian philosophy
[13:53] Nectanebus: I'll be here for the Tuesday catch up on that one, then :)
[13:53] Velvet: Science is observation - it exists everywhere!
[13:53] herman Bergson: So….thank you all for you stimulating participation
[13:54] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman
[13:54] Nectanebus: bye all
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: was nice
[13:54] Zanicia: Bravo Herman...fascinating as always
[13:54] herman Bergson: As I just observed.....Class dismissed ^_^
[13:54] Nectanebus: Ia Yog-Sothoth!
[13:54] Velvet: Thank you again, Professor!
[13:54] herman Bergson: But I agree Velvet :-))
[13:54] Velvet: Thanks, herman!
[13:54] Zanicia: Bye Nect
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ok cu all soon
[13:54] Corronach: thanks herman
[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you ZANICIA

[13:55] Bejiita Imako:

Tuesday, February 18, 2014

510: Introducing India

When I ended the previous lecture with “Our next stop will be in India, which among other things is the birthplace of what we now call logic.” Gemma’s reaction was “Really?”

As a young student of philosophy, 23 years old or so, I learnt about the origins of our logic, or at least that the Greeks didn’t “invent” it, but that its roots lay in India. And I thought..”Really?”

However, hear the serious and respected voice of the MacMillan Encyclopedia of Philosophy: “ The mainstream of the history of logic begins in ancient Greece 

and comes down through the Arabian and European logic of the Middle Ages and through a number of post-Renaissance thinkers to the more or less mathematical developments in logic in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. 

In the period after the fall of Rome many of the ancient achievements were forgotten and had to be relearned; the same thing happened at the end of the Middle Ages. 

Otherwise this Western tradition has been fairly continuous. 
Indian and Chinese logic developed separately.”

A lot of words and then this single statement “Indian and Chinese logic developed separately.”….period. A whole culture and history is thrown in a corner, as if it is completely irrelevant and as if logic and real philosophy originated from the Greek.

Already in our study of Chinese philosophy we ran into the problem of doing justice to Chinese thought by not trying to squeeze it into Western philosophical concepts and vocabulary.

This single statement not even takes the trouble of doing that. It just shows the door to two important cultures, because they are not relevant for the subject of logic.

Then hear this, which comes to the surface, when you do some research on the Internet: “Older than Plato or Confucius, the Upanishads are the most ancient philosophical works and contain the mature wisdom of India's intellectual and spiritual attainment. 

(…) In profundity of thought and beauty of style, they have rarely been surpassed not only in Indian thought but in the Western and Chinese philosophical traditions as well.“

“They” strike back! Not surprising, when you take into account, how the UK humiliated and exploited the ancient culture of India for at least a hundred years, but in those day one believed that it was for the benefit of the people.

Thence it is a good start, if we study some of the historical context first to get a more balanced picture. 

The “Really” of Gemma is quite understandable. When we think of India and Indian wisdom we think of ashrams, people in orange clothes, hara krishna, incense, yogis, Baghwan, rituals  and so on.

But, fortunately, this is not our subject here, because all that is mainly related to all kinds of religious ideas of Buddhism and Hinduism.

We are interested here in Indian PHILOSOPHY. Contrary to Chinese philosophy, where it was rather difficult to stay clear of the religious connotations and historical developments, we can clearly separate philosophy and theology in Indian history.

By the fifth century B.C.E. great social change was taking place in India and a period of intense intellectual activity came into being. 

Rational inquiry into a wide range of topics was under way, including agriculture, architecture, astronomy, grammar, law, logic, mathematics, medicine, phonology, and statecraft.  

This intellectual development was possible because of the existence of Sanskrit, a written language, which has its roots around 1000 B.C.E.

It played the same role as Latin did a 1500 years later in the Middle Ages, when every scholar in Europe could read and communicate in this language.
- quote -
“The Sanskrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either…”
- end quote

These are the words of Sir William Jones, an Anglo-Welsh philologist and scholar of ancient India, speaking to The Asiatic Society in Calcutta on February 2, 1786.

To be continued….. Thank you ^_^

Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
From Africa to Zen, R.C. Solomon & K.M. Higgins

The Discussion

[13:21]  herman Bergson: To be continued‚ .. Thank you ^_^
[13:21]  herman Bergson: .
[13:21]  Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thank you Herman  
[13:21]  Bejiita Imako: thats a goodstarton the subject
[13:21]  Bejiita Imako:  
[13:21]  Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): thank you herman
[13:21]  herman Bergson: Thank you...
[13:21]  quaezar.agnomen): Interesting ! :) Thanks
[13:22]  herman Bergson: It is a huge subject...
[13:22]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): I really learned something tonight. My respects, Herman
[13:22]  Bejiita Imako: can imagine that
[13:22]  herman Bergson: and revealing a lot we are hardly aware of....
[13:22]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): western thinking as always
[13:22]  herman Bergson: For instance....there in India we find the oldest university of the world
[13:23]  Bejiita Imako: hmm ok
[13:23]  herman Bergson: I'll talk about that in the next lecture
[13:23]  Bejiita Imako: they were pioneers in some things for sure
[13:23]  herman Bergson: What I also learnt is that religion in India is still a barrel of gunpowder....
[13:23]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): could everyone in India read and write at that time?
[13:24]  Dag (daggash.bayn): thank you herman , I wonder if that development can be referred to some prominent names or schools...?
[13:24]  herman Bergson: The educated people could, Beertje
[13:24]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the upperclass you mean?
[13:24]  herman Bergson: No not really.....
[13:25]  herman Bergson: even when you were poor and gifted you could join a teacher in Taxila, for instance
[13:25]  herman Bergson: It even was not done to ask money for teaching....
[13:25]  herman Bergson: Gifts from the rich students was allowed
[13:26]  Bejiita Imako: just simply to give education to people
[13:26]  Bejiita Imako: thats nice
[13:26]  herman Bergson: What development did you refer to Dag?
[13:26]  Dag (daggash.bayn): I mean the intellectual one
[13:27]  Dag (daggash.bayn): does it have any references or was it just the spirit of the time?
[13:27]  herman Bergson: Well....the first stage was the Upanishads....
[13:27]  herman Bergson: mainly liturgical manuals and books of prayers.....
[13:28]  herman Bergson: But not rituals....they cam later....with the Veda...about 300 BCE...
[13:28]  Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:28]  herman Bergson: and next to that  developed the fact the real secular philosophy....
[13:29]  herman Bergson: besides that....Buddha was a kind of too, for he oppoesed with his teachings agains the Brahmanism with their rituals
[13:29]  Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Waves at everyone, thanks Herman again. Time for bed. See you all next week 
[13:30]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye   
[13:30]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): Goodnight Chantel
[13:30]  herman Bergson: Bye chantal
[13:30]  Bejiita Imako: bye chantal
[13:30]  herman Bergson: For us the schools of materialist are most interesting
[13:31]  herman Bergson: Even tho the indian culture is dominated by Hinduism
[13:31]  herman Bergson: if this is a beginning of an answer to your question Dag? :-)
[13:31]  Dag (daggash.bayn): Rational inquiry into a wide range of topics was under way, including agriculture, architecture, astronomy, grammar, law, logic, mathematics, medicine, phonology, and statecraft.
[13:32]  Dag (daggash.bayn): not really sorry
[13:32]  Dag (daggash.bayn): I meant to ask , who were the people behind all this ?
[13:32]  herman Bergson: What these words refer to is the fact that indian scholars got interested in the form of arguments....
[13:33]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah
[13:33]  Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:33]  herman Bergson: The people of the Northern part of India....the Punjab
[13:33]  Dag (daggash.bayn): I see
[13:33]  Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:33]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): this will be all new
[13:33]  herman Bergson: on the map behind me you see Taxila.....the intellectual center since 500 BCE
[13:34]  herman Bergson: and the people from the Punjab seem to have been immigrants around 2000 BCE from the north....
[13:34]  Bejiita Imako: hmm ok
[13:35]  herman Bergson: because Sanskrit as a language seems to be related to Indo-European languages, like slavic languages
[13:35]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah
[13:35]  Bejiita Imako: i see¬®
[13:35]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): hmm
[13:36]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): certainly is a loaded subject
[13:36]  herman Bergson: As you see...there is still a lot information about this subject
[13:36]  herman Bergson: And what I found important is to describe the historical background first
[13:37]  herman Bergson: Especially  to reveal the relations between Greece and India around 400 to 300 BCE
[13:37]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ahha
[13:38]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): is that tuesday?
[13:38]  herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll elaborate on that relation
[13:38]  Bejiita Imako: aaa yes i see thete is a line across the map from Athens to Taxila
[13:38]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:38]  Areyn Laurasia: That's a long distance to travel in those days...
[13:38]  Bejiita Imako: just wondered what that was
[13:38]  herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....they traveled that all the way...
[13:38]  Bejiita Imako: thats long
[13:38]  herman Bergson: among them was Alexander the great
[13:38]  Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:39]  Bejiita Imako: aaa that guy I know about
[13:39]  Bejiita Imako: „ã°
[13:39]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): haha
[13:39]  herman Bergson: I also put up a picture of Sanskrit.....a small example
[13:39]  Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:39]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:40]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): yes
[13:40]  herman Bergson: if you click the picture you'll see the URL where you can get a free course in Sanskrit :-))
[13:40]  Free introductory course Sanskrit:
[13:40]  Free introductory course Sanskrit:
[13:40]  Areyn Laurasia: Thanks :)
[13:40]  Bejiita Imako: aaa awesome
[13:40]  Dag (daggash.bayn): before we go sleep herman ?
[13:40]  Bejiita Imako: if i can learn 10 programming languages at once i can probably throw some sanskrit in the mix as well
[13:40]  Bejiita Imako: lol
[13:40]  herman Bergson: Be careful not to download the PDF with Safari if you have a Mac
[13:40]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): next tuesday a test in sanskrit?
[13:41]  Bejiita Imako: damn love thisnew machine!
[13:41]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no tests!!!!
[13:41]  Bejiita Imako: works great
[13:41]  herman Bergson: No test Beertje :-)
[13:41]  Bejiita Imako: hmm ok
[13:41]  Bejiita Imako: does it crash safari?
[13:41]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): phew!
[13:41]  herman Bergson: No....
[13:41]  herman Bergson: But when you download with Safari Acrobat does not recognize the PDF for some odd reason
[13:42]  herman Bergson: So I used Chrome which worked perfectly
[13:42]  Bejiita Imako: ok, weird
[13:42]  Bejiita Imako: chrome is a good standard browser to use i think
[13:42]  herman Bergson: Yes...especially while in the text is said that PDF1 is specially prepared for PC and MAC :-))
[13:42]  Bejiita Imako: also test all my own web programming in it
[13:42]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman..I have to go
[13:43]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight every one
[13:43]  herman Bergson: Take care Beertje :-)
[13:43]  Bejiita Imako: might be safari changes the file in some way
[13:43]  Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): good night
[13:43]  herman Bergson: I think so, Bejiita
[13:43]  Bejiita Imako: night Beertje
[13:43]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): Bye Beejiita
[13:43]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye 
[13:43]  Bejiita Imako: bye Zanica
[13:43]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ‚ô• Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ‚ô•
[13:43]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): herman
[13:43]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hope i can make it tuesday
[13:44]  herman Bergson: Thank you all for your interest again :-)
[13:44]  Areyn Laurasia: Thanks, Professor
[13:44]  Bejiita Imako: this will be great!
[13:44]  Bejiita Imako: „ã°
[13:44]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): excellent tonight
[13:44]  herman Bergson: If there arent any more questions or remarks???
[13:44]  herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^
[13:44]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not yet
[13:44]  Areyn Laurasia: goggling upanishad :)
[13:44]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i am going to excuse myself today
[13:45]  herman Bergson: You can find free texts of the Upanishads.....
[13:45]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): getting ready for the one billion rising tomorrow
[13:45]  Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:45]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye  
[13:45]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): for now
[13:45]  Bejiita Imako: that will be nice
[13:45]  Dag (daggash.bayn): thank you herman and bye everyone
[13:45]  Areyn Laurasia: is there an event in sl for that, Gemma?
[13:45]  Bejiita Imako: are there any lms out yet?
[13:45]  Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): bye gemma
[13:45]  herman Bergson: Bye Dag
[13:45]  Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:45]  Zanicia (zanicia.chau): Goodbye everyone
[13:45]  Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): bye dag
[13:45]  Bejiita Imako: was year before too
[13:45]  Areyn Laurasia: nite everybody
[13:45]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oops
[13:45]  Bejiita Imako: great event for a good thing
[13:45]  Areyn Laurasia: seems a pity, they haven't even resolved the case
[13:47]  Areyn Laurasia: well, have a good night, everyone.. more reading to do..
[13:47]  herman Bergson: ok Aryen :-))

[13:48]  Bejiita Imako: bye

509: A look at Japan

The tendency of the Platonic-Christian tradition to privilege the soul over the body is manifest in the fact that it was not until Schopenhauer and Nietzsche in the nineteenth century- and then, later, Merleau-Ponty--that European thinkers began to develop extensive philosophies of the body. 

In East Asian thought, by contrast, the body has consistently been a focus of philosophical reflection, whether by virtue of the emphasis on ritual performance in the teachings of Confucius,

the development of breathing and concentration techniques or physical skills in Taoism, or the practice of meditation in sitting, walking, and other physical activity in Buddhism.

Even though the ancient Greeks attached great importance to the training of the body, Plato's association of the head with intellect and rational thought distracted the attention of the subsequent philosophical tradition from the body as a whole. 

Thinking came to be understood as an "internal" process, the outward somatic manifestations of which are relatively unimportant. 

However, by disciplining the movements and postures of the body through ritual practice, one could refine the faculties and capacities of the whole human being. 

This attitude was maintained in the Taoist tradition that developed after Confucius and was thus incorporated in Chinese Buddhism as well as in the Japanese forms of Buddhism that were descended from it. 

This is why the ideas of Zen have traditionally embodied themselves in such activities as archery, swordplay, tea ceremony, Noh drama, painting, and calligraphy.

This is how we know Japan. Not as the historical center of philosophical developments, but as a culture that has assimilated, what came from abroad.

During the 7th through 9th century two major intellectual systems—Confucianism and Buddhism—were imported from Korea and China. 

Whereas Confucianism addressed the “social self,” influencing government structure and patterns of formal behavior, Buddhism provided psychological insight into the workings of the inner self.

These two on their turn were incorporated in, or absorbed by an indigenous intellectual system, which we known as Shinto.

Although the authority of sacred or by god inspired books has often been important, it has not been as singular in its focus in Japan as in many other cultures. 
Thus, the Japanese have not typically identified a single text such as the Bible, the Analects, the Qur’an or the Bhagavad Gītā as foundational to their culture.
Shintō is more readily observed in the social life of the Japanese people and in their personal motivations than in a pattern of formal belief or philosophy.

The basic worldview of the Japanese has been animistic for thousands of years, when Confucianism and Buddhism arrived in Japan.

This worldview assumes that non-human entities, including animals, plants, and often even inanimate objects or phenomena, possess a spiritual essence - SHIN, where TO means “The way” -

Under the entry “Shinto sects and schools” in Wikipedia more that a hundred are mentioned, many initiated by Buddhist monks or Confucians.

And that is characteristic of Japanese thinking: there has never been something like the Truth, a Bible or Holy Text. There hardly exists dogmatism. All world views coexist peacefully.

As you see, no new philosophical or ethical theories. What may be interesting,is the fact that Shinto never was “exported” like Confucianism or Buddhism or Christianity.

The main reason for this is probably that Japan was closed for foreigners with a small exception until Admiral Perry steamed into the bay of Yokohama on July 8, 1853.

Here ends our journey into an Asia of Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism. Our next stop will be in India, which among other things is the birthplace of what we now call logic.

The Discussion

[13:19] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::
[13:19] Daruma BoaDaruma Boa claps
[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^
[13:19] Gemma Allen: really?
[13:19] herman Bergson: Really what Gemma?
[13:19] Lizzy Pleides: great lecture again!
[13:20] Gemma Allen: that was the birthplace of logic???
[13:20] Nectanebus: well done
[13:20] Oceane: thank you for a great lecture, herman
[13:20] herman Bergson: thank you Lizzy :-)
[13:20] Bejiita Imako: yes this was some good things
[13:20] Gemma Allen: india?
[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes as a student I really was surprised myself then
[13:20] Oceane: sorry folks but I got to run rl calls me, good bye
[13:20] Gemma Allen: see you soon
[13:20] herman Bergson: Bye Oceane...
[13:20] Daruma Boa: bye oceane
[13:21] herman Bergson: Of course Aristotle is the grandfather of our logic....
[13:21] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: ah4
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: seems so
[13:21] herman Bergson: But there are rumors that he had contacts in India...
[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: the indian people were good in mathematics i think
[13:22] herman Bergson: But don’t worry...we'll dig into that Gemma :-)
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy...
[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: and they influenced the arabian intellectuals
[13:22] Nectanebus: There's a lot of veins that run back to India. I've heard it thought that Yeshua's journey into the desert sent him there.
[13:22] Nectanebus: gah, three lines, sorry.
[13:22] herman Bergson: and philosophically there were pure materialist schools too
[13:23] herman Bergson: lol..that is ok Netanebus
[13:23] herman Bergson: The idea is only not to dump complete notecards in chat :-)
[13:23] Chantal:
[13:23] Nectanebus: k
[13:24] .: Beertje :.: if you strech the window can be written on just one line :))))
[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: lol beertje
[13:24] herman Bergson: hush Beertje ! :-))
[13:24] Daruma Boa: ^^
[13:24] .: Beertje :.:
[13:24] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!
[13:24] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...
[13:24] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:24] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:24] Nectanebus: I guess there is that
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hehehe
[13:24] Qwark Allen: was just a line in my view
[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: you can buy a larger screen too beertje
[13:25] herman Bergson: One remark on  the Japanese....
[13:25] Nectanebus: IDK, I'm kind of stuffed to the brim with stuff like this, I'm afraid to start talking. Suizen, that's all
[13:25] Nectanebus: brim*
[13:25] herman Bergson: They didn’t export their philosophy because they thought thety were superior to other people....
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: many cultures did that and still do
[13:26] Nectanebus: think*
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes indeed..
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: aha
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: true
[13:27] Nectanebus: I'm going to be the one to say it, then: I think elitism can be healthy
[13:27] Gemma Allen: The American Indian always believed in the sprit of everything
[13:27] Gemma Allen: in everything that is
[13:27] Nectanebus: so I give the Japanese a bit of leeway in that regard haha
[13:27] herman Bergson: I already expected that this lecture wouldn’t provoke serious questions and debates :-)
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma.....
[13:28] Nectanebus: and yes Gem, interesting parallel there.
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:28] herman Bergson: The interesting thing about animism is that it is the way the mind begins to understand the world....
[13:28] Velvet: Nectanebus, how is elitism healthy?
[13:29] herman Bergson: Kids in the age of 3 to 5 believe that animals can talk, trees can feel pain...even a stone can live ...
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: sort of that way
[13:29] Nectanebus: makes sense to me, Herman
[13:29] herman Bergson: It also is the beginning of religion in culture
[13:30] herman Bergson: First stage is animism....
[13:30] herman Bergson: then the spirits become antropomorph ...human shape....
[13:31] herman Bergson: then you go from a polytheist to a monotheism and then hell breaks loose :-)
[13:31] Nectanebus: Such as Sumer
[13:31] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!
[13:31] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...
[13:31] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:31] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hahaha and then the bombs start falling
[13:31] Qwark Allen: my god is better then yours bejita, let me bomb your country
[13:31] herman Bergson: yes...because then they gonna say that their One God is the true god....
[13:31] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:31] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: hahah yes that is how they think
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: i guess
[13:32] herman Bergson: No mine is better...he is the true one Qwark
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: at least some guys
[13:32] Areyn Laurasia: but.. but.. the power of the god and the sun is in the bomb... :P
[13:32] Nectanebus: Cthulhu, why vote for the lesser evil?
[13:32] Qwark Allen: i`ll bomb your country to herman
[13:32] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:32] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: hahaha chutullu yes, that is a bad guy for sure
[13:32] Bejiita Imako:
[13:32] herman Bergson: How divine Qwark :-))
[13:33] Bejiita Imako:
[13:33] Qwark Allen: somehow its how i see this religions nowadays
[13:33] herman Bergson: Around 1650 - 1750 the Japanese kicked out all jesuits and prosecuted christians
[13:33] Qwark Allen: good for them :-)))
[13:33] Qwark Allen: very wise
[13:33] Nectanebus: Japan was the only country to refuse muskets, IIRC
[13:34] herman Bergson: They thought that this monotheistic religion was disrupting their society
[13:34] Qwark Allen: look what hapen to us all
[13:34] Nectanebus: I think herman, that's the crux of why "religion" is a dirtier word in the West than elsewhere.
[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: when people don't have religion they substitute it with any other thing which often is not much better
[13:34] Nectanebus: gah, typos
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: i guess so
[13:34] Nectanebus: Good point there, Liz. That's what Nietzsche's "God is Dead" was REALLY about...
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: buddhism is one of the few religions that is not used to start wars
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: like islams jihad and similar things
[13:35] herman Bergson: I just wanted to mention that Bejiita...
[13:35] Qwark Allen: this major religions are involved in politics and economy! i think that says all
[13:35] herman Bergson: Buddhism SINT a religion.....
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:35] herman Bergson: it is a way of life
[13:35] herman Bergson: ISNT
[13:35] Nectanebus: Bejita, I'd look up how Budd/Confu/Tao-ism have had friction in Chinese society before saying that haha
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: and that is a big problem when u let religion and politics mix
[13:36] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: True Nectanebus....
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: but budhism seems more peace related in general
[13:36] herman Bergson: also Buddhists were prosecuted in China
[13:36] Velvet: I agree Bejiita
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: at least the basic concept of it
[13:36] Qwark Allen: that was the improvement in society when in the 17th century we broke that connection
[13:36] herman Bergson: I agree Bejiita
[13:36] Nectanebus: Christianity is about as peaceful as they come if you read the New Testament too, we shouldn't judge a book by it's adherents haah
[13:36] Velvet: religion & politics don't go together
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: then it get a big mess
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: just look on Iran after 1979
[13:37] Nectanebus: I prefer a theocracy to a 1984 state, at least there's some morality inherent in the former system
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: basically went back in time several 100 years
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: cause of khomeini’s terror
[13:37] Qwark Allen: look for , where are all major warfare events in the globe, and what are they related to
[13:38] Nectanebus: what is a smokescreen?
[13:38] Velvet: Ah, but is morality inherent, or does it only come with a religion?
[13:38] Areyn Laurasia: mistakes of the past foreign policies
[13:38] herman Bergson: Morality is not the privilege of religion....
[13:38] Velvet: one can be atheist and moral.
[13:38] herman Bergson: Aristotalian virtue ethics doesn't need religion as an argument
[13:38] Nectanebus: Oh, that's a sticky fish Velvet haha. Does altruism exist? Do we act morally without judges? heavy stuff
[13:39] Velvet: Professor made us kick that idea around earlier
[13:39] Gemma Allen: i htink it does exisit
[13:39] Velvet: I'm still working on it.
[13:39] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!
[13:39] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...
[13:39] herman Bergson: And indeed we are altruistic by nature...
[13:39] Nectanebus: Herman the optimist!
[13:39] Gemma Allen: i am stil working on years of classes
[13:39] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:39] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:39] Areyn Laurasia: :)
[13:39] Velvet: we are moral by nature!
[13:40] herman Bergson: Behind me you see the book cover of a book by de Waal...
[13:40] Gemma Allen: ohoh
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: that i hope indeed
[13:40] Bejiita Imako:
[13:40] Nectanebus: nature versus nurture again
[13:40] herman Bergson: Not really I would say nectanebus...
[13:41] herman Bergson: Look at all cultures we discussed so far....everywhere is morality...
[13:41] Nectanebus: I was talking about Velevet's comment, just having a giggle
[13:41] philosophers Giver 1.0: Philosopher's Gift at Wainscot has just been used by Gemma Cleanslate!
[13:41] Qwark Allen: ehheh got you necta
[13:41] Velvet: but we are moral because it's logical and benefits us when we live with others
[13:41] Nectanebus: Yeah, it's just whether there is a common thread within said moralities that would point towards an "inherent human morality"
[13:41] Bejiita Imako:
[13:41] herman Bergson: The homo sapiens is a social animal.....that is in his genes....
[13:41] Velvet: that makes it inherent
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: true
[13:42] Nectanebus: No, I mean if they all have moralities, but they are different moralities with no common thread, then is there and inherrent for all humans or have they all learnt it socially?
[13:42] Nectanebus: an*
[13:42] herman Bergson: Sometimes I believe that there present day problems with morality is that mankind lives in all kinds of stages of mental development....
[13:42] Nectanebus: gah, fragment haha
[13:42] Velvet: lol. the answer is yes.
[13:43] herman Bergson: from stone age mentality to individualistic greed
[13:43] Areyn Laurasia: so morality changes over the years?
[13:43] Velvet: moralities have common threads
[13:43] Gemma Allen: and we change as we age too
[13:43] Nectanebus: idk, name me a taboo and I'll probably be able to think of a culture where it's not....if my research is worth anything haha
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hehe ok
[13:43] Bejiita Imako:
[13:43] Nectanebus: ah, now progressive morality, that's an interesting thread as well
[13:43] Velvet: yeah, but you are looking for loopholes instead of common threads
[13:43] Nectanebus: maybe
[13:44] Velvet: don't kill, don't steal.
[13:44] Velvet: common.
[13:44] Velvet: logical.
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: very¨
[13:44] herman Bergson: The problem is that we think of some general "Mind"
[13:44] herman Bergson: but there isnt...
[13:44] herman Bergson: Like the universal Rights of Man.....
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: so many different minds it seems
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: not a universal on
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: e
[13:45] Velvet: yes, but there is an element of groupthink.
[13:45] herman Bergson: For some people they are even not understandable
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: aha
[13:45] Nectanebus: killing is fine via many religious tenents, and stealing...well, I@m sure some of us have heard of the pirate party...
[13:45] herman Bergson: And yes logic and mathematics are universal :-)
[13:46] Velvet: loopholes!
[13:46] Nectanebus: threads
[13:46] Velvet: logic and mathematics are universal
[13:46] Nectanebus: Don't get me wrong, I'm towards the idea of inherrent morality, but I always flounder for decent sources haha
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: u mean the party here in Sweden that hame as main way free flow of information on the internet ect?
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: have
[13:46] Nectanebus: yup
[13:46] herman Bergson: it was our mind that created it in interaction with its environment
[13:47] Nectanebus: I think the ideas of Open Source can be traced back to libertairian ideas represented nowadays by romaticized pirates, but having philo- groundings
[13:47] Velvet: agreeing with Nectanebus now.
[13:47] Gemma Allen: hmmm
[13:48] Nectanebus:
[13:48] herman Bergson: There is one problem here.....
[13:48] Nectanebus: for instance
[13:48] Nectanebus: aye?
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: the idea is basically that they don’t want someone deciding what u can and cant do with your data, also they are against NSA and for personal privacy ect
[13:48] herman Bergson: the concept "information"
[13:48] Nectanebus: ??
[13:49] herman Bergson: information is interpreted data....
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: like CERN stated when they made the www, No one own the internet
[13:49] herman Bergson: for the interpretation you need a context and rules
[13:49] Nectanebus: but when servers are hosted in countries that impose laws, it's already there.
[13:49] herman Bergson: and those matters are controlled by culture, politics, psychology etc
[13:49] Velvet: internet is just a net
[13:50] Velvet: information can be owned
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:50] Nectanebus: I think information wants to be free
[13:50] Velvet: my SS# is not free information
[13:50] Velvet: ... or is it?
[13:50] herman Bergson: That is the worst part of it....owned and thus become an economic!
[13:50] Nectanebus: yup
[13:51] Velvet: but money is virtual as well
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:51] Nectanebus: I'd say CrimethInc. is the right way to go about it
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: my payroll is just binary data on a banks server
[13:51] Nectanebus:
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: what i have on my account
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: also makes such thing a target for hackers
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: to try get to your money, but making viruses ect
[13:52] herman Bergson: I think way wandered of pretty far from the Way of the spirit now....the Shinto :-)
[13:52] Velvet: waaaay off
[13:52] Gemma Allen: true
[13:52] Velvet: off
[13:52] Daruma Boa: ^^^
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:52] herman Bergson: So I all got enough to think about now :-)
[13:52] Gemma Allen: hope i can get here thursday
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: well my head is spinning now with all this stuff
[13:53] Gemma Allen: Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!!
[13:53] Nectanebus: I'll be here next week, all being well.
[13:53] herman Bergson: I thank you all for yhe lively debate :-)
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: need to store it on a driv somewhere
[13:53] Daruma Boa: thank u
[13:53] Nectanebus: Thanks for the lecture. A pleasure as always.
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: this is more and more interesting
[13:53] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.´ ¯¨.¸¸`** **´ ¸¸.¨¯` H E R MA N ´ ¯¨.¸¸`**   **´ ¸¸.¨¯`
[13:53] Qwark Allen: was excellent as usual
[13:53] Daruma Boa: and see u on thursday
[13:53] Chantal: Thank you Herman
[13:53] Corronach: thanks herman
[13:53] Areyn Laurasia: lots of reading :)
[13:53] Bejiita Imako:
[13:53] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye   
[13:53] Gemma Allen: for now
[13:53] herman Bergson: See you next Thursday....
[13:53] Chantal: Waves
[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed..^_^
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all
[13:53] Bejiita Imako:
[13:53] Areyn Laurasia: Thanks again
[13:54] Gemma Allen: oops
[13:54] Qwark Allen: nice jewelery bej
[13:54] Qwark Allen: ^^
[13:54] Gemma Allen: nto sure tp is working
[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman and good night everybody
[13:54] Gemma Allen: GIGGLES!!
[13:54] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: i think i got it from you
[13:54] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman
[13:54] Qwark Allen: ehheeh nice
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: used it for a punk event yesterday
[13:54] Qwark Allen: looking great m
[13:54] Qwark Allen: m8
[13:54] Bejiita Imako:
[13:54] .: Beertje :.: have a goodnight all
[13:54] Velvet: Thanks again, Professor!
[13:54] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!
[13:54] Gemma Allen: and herman always wears you watch fob
[13:54] Gemma Allen: for years now
[13:54] Lizzy PleidesLizzy Pleides waves bye
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: i have loads if these that i got before
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hugs all
[13:55] Bejiita Imako:
[13:55] Areyn Laurasia: good night :)
[13:55] herman Bergson: Indeed Gemma
[13:55] Areyn Laurasia: tries to find zen in there somewhere..