Thursday, March 1, 2018

703: An Overview and a Final Question...

In Search of our Self we may after dozens of lectures  ask the question, did we find anything? 
Although many philosophical debates often rather lead to more questions than answers, I'd a YES.
The Self is not just a philosophical and theoretical issue, but due to our present day neurobiological insights also an empirical matter.
In his book "Self comes to Mind" (2010)  Antonio Damasio relates many experiences of a self to all kinds of parts of the physical brain.
At least with one simple observation we can begin: no physical brain means no consciousness, consequently no mind and consequently no self.
The next step is, that where there is a brain there is consciousness and thence  there can be all kinds of levels of having a mind.
This can be confirmed by the observation that some animals are smarter than others. That means for instance, that they are more convenient in solving problems.
The next stage of consciousness and mind is, that the organism shows to be conscious of its individual existence.
We know that some animals like dolphins, elephants, some primates are able to recognize themselves.
What we see is consciousness as a continuum, where a "marker" moves from left to right,
where left means total absence of self-awareness and right means complete self-awareness.
We as homo sapiens sit at the very right end of this continuum. We are 100% self-aware and during our life we have a strong feeling of a Self.
First observation is, that our Self must be the result of the activity of the brain as Damasio explained.
What we all experience regarding our Self is a kind of continuity and coherence. The first stage is our experience of our bodily continuity.
It is what Damasio calls the "protoself". It boils down to our awareness of our bodily continuity. As a baby we discover our toes and I am aware of them still at my age.
What is essential here and what makes us differ from other organisms is our unique awareness of time and space.
When we learn to physically interact with the world around us we discover our autonomous and authentic Self: "That was ME, who did this!"
Due to our awareness of time our memories become a part of our Self, our personal identity.
Finally our Self becomes our personal narrative, which enables us to tell a uniques story about our Self.
Our body changes through the years. We acquire new skills. Memories fade, new ones are stored. The Self thus is a continuous flux.
-QUOTE- You are not subject to any restrictions. You will determine your nature for yourself according to your own free will which I have entrusted to you. 
I have not made you heavenly and not earthy, not mortal and not immortalized. As a free and sovereign artist you have to be your own sculptor, 
as it were, and express yourself in the form you prefer. You can degenerate into the lower forms, the animal, 
but you can also be reborn through your own will in the higher forms, which are divine. -END QUOT -

You can be the designer of your own Self, according to Pico della Mirandola (1463 -1494),
an Italian Renaissance nobleman and philosopher.
Already in those days they knew, that you design your own Self. Only question left is, can we improve on that.....?
Thank you for your attention... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:25] ThalesMiletus: Interesting. Thanks herman.
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:26] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...feel free :-)
[13:26] herman Bergson: This is a kind of final conclusion on my behalf
[13:27] herman Bergson: My question is....what should be the next project be about ???? ^_^
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Self is indeed an interesting concept, its both simple and complex at same time
[13:27] herman Bergson: Indeed looks simple but shows to be pretty complex
[13:27] ThalesMiletus: Next project?
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Thales....
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): speaking of that surrealist thing, maybe something relating to that like dreams or something similar
[13:28] ThalesMiletus: In what context?
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): could be interesting
[13:28] herman Bergson: So far I did about 15 projects...
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well I want more
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: didn't u say its atheism Herman?
[13:29] herman Bergson: what is...Ciska?
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: the next project ;)
[13:29] ThalesMiletus: Btw, I don't really know what would be meant by 100% self-awareness unless we just mean relative to other lifeforms on earth. It seems there is quite a lot of unconscious activity in our brains we are totally unaware of.
[13:29] herman Bergson: I already did one on atheism...
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: ah - I misunderstood then
[13:30] herman Bergson: Project number 12 it was :-)
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes it seems familiar
[13:30] ThalesMiletus: I don't know what the projects were so it's hard for me to suggest anything without overlapping what you've probably already one.
[13:30] ThalesMiletus: *done
[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes Thales...relative to other lifeforms
[13:31] herman Bergson: All   projects are listed in my Profile picks...:-)
[13:31] herman Bergson: pick 01.
[13:31] ThalesMiletus: Right, so a scale of less and more self-aware.. but I don't think there is an absolute end to that scale.
[13:32] herman Bergson: and indeed there is a lot going on in our brain we are not aware of
[13:32] herman Bergson: that was the next question....can we improve on it...:-))
[13:33] herman Bergson: We'll talk about that in the next lecture :-))
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm i guess most things can be improved, question is just how
[13:34] ThalesMiletus: I think the melding of philosophy and science and the resulting education from that is certainly one general way how.
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone whispers: but a very oooooold one too ;)
[13:35] ThalesMiletus: as long as it works
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats an idea
[13:37] herman Bergson: So the question is...what would you like to be the subject of our next project?
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what about that with dreams and what hapens in them, but thats as you said more psychology maybe
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: Time
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thinking of something on this surreal theme since i started taking up that theme again today
[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...
[13:38] ThalesMiletus: I see that 11 was Why Science is Right... maybe something to challenge that, like... Can Science be Wrong?
[13:38] ThalesMiletus: I don't know what was said during 11.
[13:38] herman Bergson: TIME....oh my....the philosophy of time.....
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: well I think that might be interesting no?
[13:39] herman Bergson: Oh yes....
[13:39] ThalesMiletus: Time is a crazy subject.. it seems no one can really agree what it is.
[13:39] herman Bergson: It is one of the biggest problems for us....
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: hheheh so its a bit like.... let me think
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone whispers: consciousness?
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: ;)
[13:40] ThalesMiletus: even worse I think
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well self awareness we did here i think a bit
[13:40] herman Bergson: I don't see consciousness as a problem....
[13:40] herman Bergson: we know where it comes from...the brain....
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: imeant in terms of agreeing on what it is
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm tricky but i bet there are a ton of things we have not taken up yet
[13:40] herman Bergson: what we do not know is how the brain generates consciousness
[13:41] herman Bergson: not do we know how it came into being somewhere in evolution
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Still think about this dream philosophy idea if it can be done
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as a project
[13:42] herman Bergson: that is psychology, Bejiita...
[13:42] ThalesMiletus: I'm still thinking about project 11. What about the difference between philosophy and science?
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we have not done it before and its very different from the other ones
[13:43] ThalesMiletus: So what do you mean by dream philosophy
[13:44] ThalesMiletus: To be honest, it sounds kind of like dream interpretation.
[13:44] herman Bergson: Ann...wake us out! :-))
[13:44] Ann Forbes: I like all of your ideas. I've been daydreaming about them.
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i m just thinking about whats actually happening, the brain can indeed come up with really crazy things when we dream, hence these surrealistic situations
[13:44] herman Bergson: yes Thales....not my line of work :-)
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but still can you describe it as philosophy
[13:44] ThalesMiletus: Ok, so discussing why we dream?
[13:44] ThalesMiletus: What the function might be?
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and what happens
[13:45] herman Bergson: that still is a physiological or psychological question]
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess it is
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just have some stuff spinning around that i try weave together in some way
[13:46] ThalesMiletus: So was this project you just finished #15 - The Meaning of Life?
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Self was the theme right?
[13:46] ThalesMiletus: herman?
[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes we are still here Thales...that must have a meaning ^_^
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:47] ThalesMiletus: or was that the last one?
[13:47] ThalesMiletus: and this one isn't listed yet
[13:47] herman Bergson: It was the one before this one :-)
[13:48] herman Bergson: I updated the picks just now
[13:48] herman Bergson: so reload it and see
[13:48] herman Bergson: Project 17 is the new one...:-)
[13:48] ThalesMiletus: Anyway, I'm not a regular so I should stay out of this discussion
[13:48] herman Bergson: no no....everyone is equal here Thales :-)
[13:50] herman Bergson: WEll...
[13:50] ThalesMiletus: herman did you have some options?
[13:50] herman Bergson: Next lecture(s) will be on how to improve our Self...:-)
[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes Thales...I have a no theme here on my desk for the next project....but I wanted your opinion
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that sounds good
[13:51] ThalesMiletus: my unequal equal opinion :)
[13:52] herman Bergson: My problem is that Ido not like to redo a project theme...
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): take your time and you /we will figure somethign good put
[13:52] ThalesMiletus: although you could do some variant of a theme that may shed some different light on it
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): out
[13:52] herman Bergson: We certainly will Bejita :-)
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:53] herman Bergson: You almost guessed the theme of my next project Thales :-))))
[13:53] ThalesMiletus: hmm
[13:54] herman Bergson: What is your idea Bergie?
[13:55] herman Bergson: Same as Ann, it seems :-))
[13:55] Ann Forbes: :)
[13:55] herman Bergson grins
[13:55] herman Bergson: time to dismiss this class :-)
[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank youall for your participation again :-))
[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:56] Ann Forbes: Thank you
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same
[13:56] ThalesMiletus: Thanks herman
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu soon again
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i like Ciska idea@ the time
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now
[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: take care bejiita
[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman and class!! it was very interesting

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye Bejiita:-)

702: Republicans and Democrats...

Two issues caused some debate in the Netherlands and my newspaper spent an article on them
in which two philosophers discuss exactly what we are discussing here now too. Even Isaiah Berlin and his article of 1958 was mentioned.
The two issues are these: one is the fact that a judge has declared that special rooms for smokers in bars and restaurants are forbidden
and two is, that our parlement passed a law which makes every citizen an organ donor unless he actively declares that he doesn't want to be one.
In the article two philosophers discuss the question to what extend should we allow the State to interfere with our personal freedom?
I ended my previous lecture with the promise to elaborate on the dichotomy: Night-watchman State versus Welfare State and how to be yourself.
This is one of the dominating issues in American politics today, where Republicans and Democrats approach the issue with cheerful dogmatism.
In libertarian political philosophy, a night-watchman state is a model of a state whose only functions are 
to provide its citizens with the military, the police and courts, thus protecting them from aggression, theft, breach of contract and fraud and enforcing property laws.
Libertarians seek to maximize political freedom and autonomy, emphasizing freedom of choice, voluntary association, and individual judgment.
The welfare state is a concept of government in which the state plays a key role in the protection and promotion of the social and economic well-being of its citizens. 
It is based on the principles of equality of opportunity, equitable distribution of wealth, and public responsibility for those unable to avail themselves of the minimal provisions for a good life. 
As you see an interesting difference of opinion, which is mainly based on how you think about man and his capabilities.
The libertarian view is based on two assumptions.  The first one is, that each individual himself knows best what he wants.
And the second assumption is, that each individual is actually capable to act rightly, based on his choices and preferences.
Are these assumptions realistic and a sound basis for political choices?
There are a number of reasons  to doubt this. In previous lectures I already mentioned the fact, that the belief, 
that you can be absolutely autonomous cannot be uphold. Neither the belief that we ourselves by definition know best what is good for us.
Besides, sometimes this idea of maximum freedom of the individual is overrated and one tends to forget that we also cherish other values like welfare, health and safety.
When you put welfare, health and safety first and freedom of choice last, it is a small step to argue,
that based on these priority of values no one should have a right to use violence except the State to protect its citizens.
That is why in almost all countries of the world it is forbidden to possess firearms as a private person.
Just look at the consequences when you do not monopolize the right to use violence as a State. Seems you have to arm even teachers then.
For the same reason we have compulsory education.
That the State should allow us absolute freedom of choice is theoretically perhaps a nice idea, but what is forgotten here is,
that this freedom is unrealistic, because there is for instance a huge difference in possible choices  
depending on whether you are born rich or poor, intelligent and educated or less gifted, physically handicapped or healthy.
These considerations should be on the agenda, when you ask yourself how to be autonomous and a citizen of a State.
Thank you for your attention... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: If you have  any questions or remarks...feel free the floor is yours :-)
[13:19] Ciska Riverstone: thank you
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it would be nice if we could have  a mixture of the two
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but i certainly don't choose the libertarian alone
[13:20] herman Bergson: That is what we have here in the Netherlands :-)
[13:20] herman Bergson: I think the libertarian point of view is just unrealistic
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some would love to install it here completely
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is why there is such division
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some control is necessary, for example this about education and guns
[13:21] herman Bergson: The Tea PArty would like to do that too, I think ib the US
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its what is controlled and not that have to be selected carefully
[13:22] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.
[13:22] herman Bergson: So, what is you ropinion on this Ducky, if I may ask?
[13:23] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): i'm thinking about how to say it
[13:23] herman Bergson: feel free....
[13:23] ThalesMiletus: Sorry I came in late
[13:23] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): you brought up the two issues then went into more abstract ideas
[13:23] herman Bergson: You're always welcome Thales
[13:24] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): addressing the issues, a private room of idiots should be allowed without government interference, which respects the autonomy of the idiots who ignore the facts on the dangers of smoke
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:24] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): idiots, should be allowed to be idiots
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some cant help it though
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): need to be saved from themselves
[13:25] ThalesMiletus: but there is no such thing as a "private room" in real life.. that's the problem
[13:25] herman Bergson: It is not nice to disqualify other fellow humans as idiots....sound very biased
[13:25] herman Bergson: respectless regarding the freedom of choice of others
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no need to call those people idiots
[13:26] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): The facts are out there that smoking is cancerous amongst other things, and it's not the governments business to play mommy and daddy at the cost of undermining individuals idiocy
[13:26] herman Bergson: yes yes...we all know that....
[13:26] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): you're right beertje
[13:26] herman Bergson: but that doesnt disqualify a smoker as an idiot, I would say
[13:26] ThalesMiletus: but smoking has effects beyond just those individuals
[13:26] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): No, of course not
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I think he means people like your esteemed guy that wants no immigration at all
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): forgot his name
[13:27] ThalesMiletus: of course, you can do extreme sports all you want
[13:27] ThalesMiletus: not much side effect there to others
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so to the right he is almost falling over
[13:27] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): My point simply is, we should be allowed to be idiots
[13:27] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): Whatever idiot means, we should be allowed
[13:27] herman Bergson: I agree :-)
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): freedom of thought
[13:27] ThalesMiletus: I don't :)
[13:27] herman Bergson: I even volunteer for it :-)
[13:27] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): We sometimes know what's bad for us and still do it
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah yes
[13:28] herman Bergson: Even driving a car is bad for us....just note how many people are killed in traffic accidents
[13:28] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): It's not the states business to monitor our knowingly idiocy behavior when we know it's sometimes stupid what we're doing
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): smoking is hard to quit too, however its difficult for me to grasp as cigarette smoke is one of the most awful smells i know
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): however it can  cause harm to others
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): gives me nausea
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): like driving drunk
[13:29] herman Bergson: yes Gemma...
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and hitting a another innocent car
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): adn causing death
[13:29] herman Bergson: So the State should forbid driving cars?
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who should stop the person from doing that?
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or should anyone
[13:30] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): It's one thing to cause secondary harm with smoking around those who don't accept it, another to have people go into a private room knowing the consequences.
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is true
[13:30] herman Bergson: YEs...but even that is forbidden now here :-)
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or staying in the room using opioids to death
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what to think about those people who have to clean those cigarette rooms?
[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes indeed Beertje :-)
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): just blow it up beertje
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or just don't clean them, let themselves do it as they please
[13:31] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): They have air cleaners that remove all that smoke
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i go for blowing it up
[13:31] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): Turn it on when everyone leaves, and viola
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the smoke sticks on everything
[13:32] herman Bergson: But the basic idea here what extend may a government restrict individual freedom
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): walls furniture ect leaving everything permanently yellow and stinky
[13:32] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): I can address the second issue too
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah yes there are now new lights that will clean without anyone in the place .. they use it in some hospitals
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have been on visit many times to such apartments, even when they have not smoked in a very long time the apartment/house still reeks with smoke
[13:33] herman Bergson: which second issue you mean Ducky?
[13:33] herman Bergson: The donor issue?
[13:33] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): That one
[13:34] herman Bergson: ok
[13:35] herman Bergson: You are a donor from the moment you are born unless you say NO
[13:35] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): It should be an affirmative decision
[13:35] herman Bergson: That is the rule in several  European countries...for instance in Spain
[13:35] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): They tried something like that before and it was rejected for undermining autonomy
[13:35] herman Bergson: yes...understandable
[13:36] herman Bergson: that is the whole point....
[13:36] herman Bergson: what prevails...?
[13:36] herman Bergson: individual  autonomy or general welfare first?
[13:36] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): In the donor case, autonomy
[13:36] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): It's your body
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: you can say no u still have it
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes...that was a valid argument indeed....
[13:37] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): You can also say yes too
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:37] herman Bergson: therefor you are allowed to say NO
[13:37] ThalesMiletus: I would be fine with having the default be that you are a donor unless you opt out (or your parents/guardians do so on your behalf)
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: well we basically have 3 states
[13:37] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): The yes one respects our autonomy more
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: yes
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: no
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: and indifferent
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: and thats what now becomes more and more clear
[13:37] herman Bergson: That is the point Thales....
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: our topic here is consciousness
[13:38] herman Bergson: What are the Default settings of being a citizen of State ....
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: so is it possible to be conscious and indifferent at the same time?
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they are trying the same thing here with retirement savings and have found that if the company does not offer it but puts one in it unless they opt out there is  a huge difference in the number who do save.... i think that it would work that way too for bodies ... sounds silly but the idea is there
[13:39] herman Bergson: what do you mean by that Ciska?
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they can opt out
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but don't
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: I mean that we are in a new age now - full of information. can we as individuals just say: o I have information to make up my mind about something but I feel indifferent about it
[13:39] herman Bergson: No...Gemma that point was mentioned in the article too....
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: or can we be asked by the society to either make up our  minds
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there are so many people waiting for body parts to go on living and not enough parts to go around
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: or let the government decide that for us?
[13:40] herman Bergson: When the default setting is SAVING FOR RETIREMENT most people just do....don't opt out...
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: its a new age
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is a new age
[13:40] herman Bergson: when get lots of problems after retirement
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lives can be saved and most people don't even think about it
[13:41] ThalesMiletus: Gemma I agree...I think a lot of the time we just are either too lazy or too busy to figure out what to do and it makes it easier if the 'default' is something that the evidence shows is in our best interest. As long as we still have the autonomy to opt out.
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: we cannot hide any longer in our "I did not know" caves
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true
[13:41] herman Bergson: do not think about it...
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who teaches everyone to think of these things
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: thats just over guys
[13:41] ThalesMiletus: Ciska no it's not at all
[13:42] herman Bergson: Well I'll be honest.....
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we must get something to prove who we are and where we live
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so.....
[13:42] herman Bergson: I am a registered donor myself.....
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): me too
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for years.....
[13:42] herman Bergson: but the idea that when I am dead they come and harvest the valuable remains...feels a bit silly :-))
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is on my driver license
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that will be fine with me
[13:43] herman Bergson: but you have to be reasonable....
[13:43] herman Bergson: what use are they to you when you are dead?
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but i know those who strongly object
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: my problem with donor-ship is that someone makes money of it and I cannot stop him or her from it - thats something which will of course stop by itself when most people donate
[13:44] herman Bergson: no money making here
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: the whole dealing loses value
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: well herman not officially
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think the only money is by transferring from one place to another
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: but in-officially it still happens
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i does cost
[13:44] CB Axel: I am, too, but after I die, my family can override my wishes. For me would not be a case of the government making a decision for me. It would be the government making the choice for me, allowing me while I'm alive to opt out of that choice, and not allowing anyone else to change that.
[13:44] herman Bergson: it costs...yes...of course...
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha so the family can override??
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): scary
[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes....can be done here too
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, they can Gemma
[13:45] herman Bergson: even when one is donor
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wow
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): worse to me than the government doing it!!!!!!!!
[13:46] ThalesMiletus: Interesting.. what is the thinking behind that?
[13:46] herman Bergson: a bit silly but it is the law now
[13:46] ThalesMiletus: why allow the family to override?
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the nerve of my family of going against my wishes
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i will haunt them forever
[13:46] herman Bergson: Good question Thales..but I think I can answer it....
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): some people who are left behind get too much emotions
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sounds crazy for sure
[13:46] herman Bergson: Just imagine this situation....
[13:47] herman Bergson: Person A was member of some church and then dropped out and dies as a donor....
[13:47] CB Axel: The family can override because the dead person has no say. The family can just say, "well, he/she changed her mind after putting that on the license."
[13:47] herman Bergson: His family however is still member of that church that forbids donating organs...
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah yes
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well i am gone and really wont care anymore i guess anyway
[13:48] herman Bergson: The family has to arrange the funeral  they forbid donating organs
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not going to worry about it
[13:48] CB Axel: Good point, Gemma. °͜°
[13:48] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): wow, i have to say this is the best group so far
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it always was:)
[13:48] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): you really get into it
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we are all used to each  other after years
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:48] ThalesMiletus: Herman that seems strange.
[13:48] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): im so used to superficial place
[13:49] herman Bergson: Thank you Ducky :-)
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:49] herman Bergson: This is the Philosophy class for more than ten years already Ducky :-)
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: just cant seem to graduate
[13:49] herman Bergson: What is strange Thales???
[13:50] CB Axel: LOL, Gemma
[13:50] herman Bergson: I know Gemma :-))
[13:50] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): you have a new fan
[13:50] herman Bergson: Bu toyu made it to assistent professor already:-)
[13:50] ThalesMiletus: Herman the justification for the scenario you just gave. Just because they have to arrange the funeral they are allowed to override the wishes of the dead person to donate? Ridiculous.
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh good we need some new voices
[13:50] herman Bergson: No no....
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: the point with allowing family to override is that the person ( the consciousness ;) ) which took the decision is gone - the remains are "owned" by the ones who inherit somehow on some strange tehnical level
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it does happen
[13:51] herman Bergson: It is a matter of grieve.....
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): even happens when someone is directed to let a person die not on support
[13:51] CB Axel: Thales, yes they can. They can also override a DNR.
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): adn they wont!!!!!!!!
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that happens a lot
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: yes gemma
[13:52] ThalesMiletus: CB Axel I bet that's going to start changing soon
[13:52] herman Bergson: The law here was only accepted because it was stated that when the grieving relatives could not stand the idea of "desecration" of the body....they should have the right to overrule the wish of the deseased
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I had a really strong talk with my nephew who is my person at Christmas time
[13:52] ThalesMiletus: still nonsense
[13:53] herman Bergson: I agree...even respectless...
[13:53] herman Bergson: But we have christian orthodox political parties here
[13:53] CB Axel: My family knows my feelings on organ donation. I don't know if they know what I think of allowing me to die. I don't have a legal DNR.
[13:53] ThalesMiletus: My ghost would be furious as hell, if I believed in ghosts :)
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will haunt
[13:53] CB Axel: Same here, Thales.
[13:54] herman Bergson: You should Thales...I would come back myself! :-))
[13:54] herman Bergson: Just read a few Stephen King novels and you know it can be done :-))
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah my favorite Stephen King :)
[13:55] herman Bergson: Well, my friends....I guess we did it again today :-))
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:55] CB Axel: I don't believe in the Gospels in the Bible. There's no way I'm going to believe in the Gospel According to Stephen King. LOL
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa Stephen King have made lot of good ones
[13:55] herman Bergson: So thank you all again for your participation....:-)
[13:55] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some i like others no
[13:55] CB Axel: And everyone.
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu all next time
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see you next week
[13:56] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): I understand why the state would want to default for organ donations, it seems people would want to default that way too, however. does the state have solid data that the general population would want to default to organ donations iI wonder.
[13:56] herman Bergson: Ok Gemma :-))
[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and Class :-)
[13:56] CB Axel: I think the only Stephen King I've read all the way through is The Green Mile. I liked that very much, but I don't read much fiction.
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bergie
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i love that one!!!!!
[13:56] Guestboook van tipjar stand: bergfrau Apfelbaum donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the movie!!!!!
[13:57] herman Bergson: I'd say NO, Ducky....
[13:57] CB Axel: The movie was awesome. Fantastic cast.
[13:57] herman Bergson: there are nodata at all, I think....
[13:57] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): That's why it might be undermining autonomy
[13:57] herman Bergson: Make a note of it...The Green Mile..:-)
[13:57] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): Good movie
[13:57] CB Axel: There probably is no data, and the data we would get from polls would be slanted according to the way the question was asked.
[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): well.I have to go..have a good night
[13:58] herman Bergson: I wouldnt conclude that Ducky....
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu
[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Gute Nacht
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten
[13:58] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): I fear you're right axel
[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten beertje
[13:58] herman Bergson: The fact is that people do not think about it at all.....
[13:58] CB Axel: I'm CB. Axel is my surname. °͜°
[13:58] bergfrau Apfelbaum: gute nacht all :-) see you next week
[13:58] herman Bergson: so the question is...when not...then what to do?
[13:58] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): CB, got it
[13:58] herman Bergson: Default donor...or default not donor?
[13:59] CB Axel: Anyway, welterusten, y'all. See you on Tuesday.
[13:59] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): You brought up what's best for us using Isaiah Berlin
[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: cu cb
[13:59] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): that
[13:59] herman Bergson: In real it proves that Default donor works best for everyone...
[13:59] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): that's a whole discussion in itself
[13:59] herman Bergson: yes yes....the positive freedom...
[14:00] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): you're probably right about default donors
[14:00] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye :-) see you soon
[14:00] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): however, it's sometimes best to let the culture adjust to the idea first
[14:00] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): europeans are way ahead of Americans in these matters i suspect
[14:01] herman Bergson: Bye Thales :-)
[14:01] ThalesMiletus: Thanks for the talk Herman
[14:01] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): oh, everyone abandoned ship
[14:01] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): well, adios
[14:01] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): bye
[14:01] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): I can talk about this all day
[14:01] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): tc
[14:01] herman Bergson: No no....I dismissed the class...that is how we end our discussions here
[14:01] herman Bergson: Because you can discuss issues for hours of course
[14:02] herman Bergson: well you say it yourself :-))
[14:02] herman Bergson: But I do not have all day :-))
[14:02] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): It was a good discussion
[14:02] herman Bergson: thank you....
[14:02] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): best one so far
[14:02] herman Bergson: it is a nice group too
[14:03] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): yeah, you guys really seem to care
[14:03] herman Bergson: Do you know that Gemma has attended all my lectures since 2007!?
[14:03] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): dedication
[14:03] herman Bergson: yes we care indeed
[14:03] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): is there some ranking going on
[14:03] herman Bergson: ranking?
[14:04] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): like is there some degree or something
[14:04] herman Bergson: lol no...
[14:04] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): i heard some say about having graduated
[14:04] herman Bergson: Gemma loves to jole about the fact that she cant graduate here :-)
[14:04] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): ahh, ok
[14:04] herman Bergson: She is complaining about that for years :-)))
[14:04] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): well, i can say this is my favorite place so far
[14:05] herman Bergson: are most welcome...
[14:05] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): wish i had know about this before
[14:05] herman Bergson: could have been here for ten years already :-)
[14:05] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): i usually get banned from places because i have no patieence for people or groups that don't think deep about the issues or topic
[14:06] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): seems i found the right place
[14:06] herman Bergson: I only ban morons :-)
[14:06] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): good idea
[14:06] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): it was fun and nice to finally find a good place, see you next discussion
[14:06] herman Bergson: You wont believe it...but three weeks ago I had even two at the same time here ....never happened in all the years
[14:07] herman Bergson: Actually I like them because they are fun but irritating :-))
[14:07] herman Bergson: but I banned them both
[14:07] herman Bergson: one even threatened me to get to me in RL...he was Dutch too, youu see
[14:07] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): Some people think i'm a guy named swaiard
[14:08] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): or some other duck named person,
[14:08] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): i was banned for being mistaken in identity a few times
[14:08] herman Bergson: Well I cnat read your name so I call you what I can read :-)
[14:08] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): i may have to come in with new identity
[14:08] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): ok, well good chatting with you
[14:08] G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ̷ᴇ̷ʀ̷G̷ɪ̷ɴ̷ɢ (duckymars): tc

[14:08] herman Bergson: My pleasure...