Tuesday, January 27, 2015

563: Why do people believe?

During human evolution, the hominid brain tripled in size, peaking 500,000 years ago. Much of the brain's expansion took place in the neocortex.
This part of the brain is involved in processing higher order cognitive functions that are connected with human religiosity. 
The neocortex is associated with self-consciousness, language and emotion. The brain is therefor the starting point of our existence. The system that can say “I exist”.
There is inconclusive evidence that Homo Neanderthalensis may have buried their dead which is evidence of the use of ritual. 
The use of burial rituals is thought to be evidence of religious activity, and there is no other evidence that religion existed in human culture before some 50.000 years ago.
The religions which we know, are even much younger. Hinduism, Old testament monotheism. How old are they? Give or take a 4000 years or so.
And then there is this peculiar feature of monotheism. Why is it “better” than polytheism? 
Take for instance the Moon, where the Sun was another deity. Look at this list……
Almost the whole world regarded the Moon as a deity. Why did we stop doing so? We had to send out missionaries to convince others that you only have one god.
In other words, we are in the strange situation, that relatively religion as we know it is only a recent invention.
And that, although the monotheistic  religion claims that its god is from all eternity. 
Why then look so many cultures at the Moon as a Deity and didn’t they know that there was only one god?
The answer is in fact rather simple. It is because we are our brain. The mind is what the brain does. No brain means no mind, no human existence.
Now, what does that brain do  with respect to believing. We believe a lot of things. We believe that grass is green, that this stone will fall to the ground.
Ask anyone…everybody believes these daily ordinary things. But for some reason this does not apply to religious believes.
 For instance, the belief in a god, in creation, in an afterlife, in the devil, in miracles, in a heaven, in reincarnation.
Religion is just like anything else we do: a kind of human behavior. And in this new age of cognitive science and neurobiology this behavior has become a subject of scientific research.
To answer the question “WHY do we believe?” these sciences are closing in on the subject and produce explanations, based on evidence.
Jean Calvin (1509 -1564) believed that man had a special faculty, which revealed to him the existence of god.
Alvin Carl Plantinga (1932 - …), widely known for his work in philosophy of religion, epistemology, metaphysics and Christian apologetics still holds the same ideas.
However, our knowledge of the brain, cognitive behavior and social psychology have not found evidence for such a special faculty .
Some may object, that faith never can be a subject of scientific research. However, whatever you call it, “faith”, “belief”, it is just human behavior.
And as such it is observable and measurable and in the next lecture I’ll present you some results of these observations.
Thank you all again…. the floor is yours ^_^

The Discussion

Areyn Laurasia: What about intuition?
Daruma Hermine Boa claps
herman Bergson: I'll talk about that next time indeed Areyn :-))
Areyn Laurasia: okay :)
Max Chatnoir: Herman, I think you said something brilliant!  Everybody believes that grass is green and that the sun comes up and so forth because that is common human experience.  But religious experience is personal experience -- not shared.  So everybody is convinced that their god is THE God.
Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen: ...LOL...
Gemma Allen: we are always thinking ahead
herman Bergson: Yes Max, religious beliefs seem to come from another source...:-)
herman Bergson: But yet they come from the brain activity
Bejiita Imako: ah
Daruma Hermine Boa: I think belief is the motivation to find answers. and science is one step further
CB Axel: Isn't there a part of the brain that predisposes us to believe in a god?
Ciska Riverstone: it does not have much effect if i do experience my green in the grass a little lighter then someone else -but it makes a huge difference if i perceive something like love different then the one i am in love with ;)
Ciska Riverstone: same source
Max Chatnoir: I have had at least one experience that might be interpreted as religious.  It was profound.  And it was preceded by a TIA several weeks or maybe months earlier.
herman Bergson: Yes Ciska...
Ciska Riverstone: so people don't mind - as the belief in the grass is not that important ;)
Max Chatnoir: Everything got very clear and sharp and I felt deeply connected to the universe.  It lasted for several days.
Areyn Laurasia: http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/feeling-of-presence-induced-in-the-lab/
herman Bergson: YEs max, that is a normal experience I would say....
Max Chatnoir: I actually thought I might be having another stroke or something.
herman Bergson: That is worse....
Max Chatnoir: Except that it was a lot more fun.  :-)
herman Bergson: But to Ciska....
Gemma Allen: :-)
herman Bergson: the difference between the green grass and the feeling of love is that the green experience comes from the senses...
herman Bergson: the feeling of love is a direct product of the brain itself....
Bejiita Imako: true
CB Axel: I read a book a long time ago where a man tried a lot of different things that cause mystical experiences.
Bejiita Imako: however stimulated by the senses
herman Bergson: That is also true of religious beliefs
CB Axel: It was really interesting.
Max Chatnoir: Yes, I think that love might be similar.  It's a response to something individual.
Bejiita Imako: its complicated
Bejiita Imako: very individual
Bejiita Imako: for sure
Ciska Riverstone: and we still all claim we know what it is
herman Bergson: There are a lot of tricks to cause mystical experiences CB
Ciska Riverstone: and that its there
CB Axel: The book is called "Rational Mysticism."
Gemma Allen: or chemicals
Gemma Allen: natural or created
herman Bergson: LSD, Mescaline, the God Helmet, hypnosis, meditation....name it
Max Chatnoir: All I was doing was driving home from the Columbus Zoo.
CB Axel: Yes. He tried a lot of them.
CB Axel: The author
Gemma Allen: there are still those doing those experiments now
herman Bergson: But it all boils down to manipulating the bran chemistry
Areyn Laurasia: I don't know if there's a god or not but sometimes in December 2013, I sat under a tree in SL, under a rainbow. There was a strong sense of unease and a short moment later, I got a buzz from my sis that my mom was going to have a surgery. Months later, in RL, I missed a connecting flight on the way home and again I saw a rainbow.. and it ended at a tree.
herman Bergson: so, in fact, nothing special about that
Ciska Riverstone: as it does not have the same effect on everyone... there must be something else in that
Ciska Riverstone: whatever it is ;)
herman Bergson: Well some get drunk and nasty and others get drunk and funny....
Daruma Hermine Boa: true
Max Chatnoir: Well, in my grimmer moments, I just think that religion is a power grab.  If you think about the big evangelists, they are usually male.
herman Bergson: Different body chemistry...
Ciska Riverstone: different air around
Bejiita Imako: we react different to things
Ciska Riverstone: different experiences
herman Bergson: yes that puzzles me also Max, this male dominance in religions...
Gemma Allen: hah
Ciska Riverstone: does not puzzle me ;)- men seems to think more in hirarchies as women do
Max Chatnoir: I wonder what religion would look like if we were not primates.
Areyn Laurasia: aren't most who thought the moon is a goddess treating religion as a dual aspect?
herman Bergson: then we would live and look like bonobos, I guess :-))
Ciska Riverstone: cool question max - yes
Bejiita Imako:
herman Bergson: Ahhh Max..there si some flaw in your question.....
Max Chatnoir: I once saw a young chimp holding her hand out in a begging gesture, except she was looking up at the sky.
herman Bergson: it sounds dualistic....
Max Chatnoir: Dualistic how, Herman?
herman Bergson: there is me and my physical appearance.....
herman Bergson: which could look like a fish
Gemma Allen: the chimps also like babies as far as some moral ideas
Max Chatnoir: Your Inner Fish.  :-)
Gemma Allen: fairness
Areyn Laurasia: maybe the chimp was feeling the air
Max Chatnoir: Actually chimp brains mature faster than human brains.  WE are more like babies in that sense.
Max Chatnoir: So maybe the god impulse is a wish for a really powerful parent?
herman Bergson: The chimp brain has much less capacities as our brain.....
Gemma Allen: hmm
Max Chatnoir: Yes, a lot less.
herman Bergson: We need a longer learning process to master them all
Gemma Allen: i think a desire to know that one will have a second life with a deity after death
Gemma Allen: or as the buddhists future lives
Gemma Allen: never ending
herman Bergson: so a chimp has not even to graduate from Kindergaten to get menallly mature :-)
Areyn Laurasia: until you find the sunyata.. the nothingness
Max Chatnoir: Well, maybe the Neanderthal burials are telling us that religion is about wanting immortality.
Areyn Laurasia: what about sky burials?
Areyn Laurasia: or cannibalistic tribes?
Max Chatnoir: Communion.
CB Axel: Maybe the Neanderthal burials were about cutting down on the stench of decomposing bodies.
herman Bergson: At least it is a ritual Areyn....
Areyn Laurasia: or cremation and the scattering of ashes.. those wouldn't leave traces
Gemma Allen: true
herman Bergson: no other primate performs rituals
Gemma Allen: hmmm
Max Chatnoir: I'm not sure about that, Herman.  I don't know what a ritual would be to another primate, but some behaviors look ritualistic.
herman Bergson: the point here is that we have ideas about the dead body......
Max Chatnoir: Clapping in bonobos.
herman Bergson: yes I know....some animals really seem to grieve for instance
Max Chatnoir: Once a male chimp dipped his finger in his water dish and stroked it across the back of my hand.
Ciska Riverstone: or the point might be that we have psychological bonds to people who are no longer with us from one day to another and try to express our loss
herman Bergson: Yes Ciska.....
Max Chatnoir: That felt ritualistic to me.  I don't know what it meant to him.
herman Bergson: We do....
Max Chatnoir: Yes, it's so hard to lose people or even animals that we love, that the idea of immortality would be really attractive.
Max Chatnoir: And it goes back really far -- at least to Gilgamesh.
Ciska Riverstone: easier to do that when we know how to - as we are busy mourning
Ciska Riverstone: it helps the group
herman Bergson: I'll definitely talk about that next Tuesday...!
Ciska Riverstone:
herman Bergson: You already have pointed at a number of issues :-)
Areyn Laurasia: why would anyone want immortality?
herman Bergson: Yes Areyn....I dont like the idea myself...
Gemma Allen: i think we all would if it were a good one
Gemma Allen: no pain
Ciska Riverstone: not sure if people want that areyne but often they do not want to lose other people
.: Beertje :.: Gilgamesh was a king of Uruk, Mesopotamia, who lived sometime between 2800 and 2500 BC.
Gemma Allen: good food
Gemma Allen: no health issues
herman Bergson: Fascinating novel by Simone de Beauvoir....Nobody is Immortal...
Areyn Laurasia: it's a cycle..
Gemma Allen: no need for money
Gemma Allen: hey
herman Bergson: You should read it....
herman Bergson: I guess you are immediately freed from the loning for immortality :-)
Areyn Laurasia: why don't we just live the good life now instead of waiting or hoping for some other better life
herman Bergson: longing
herman Bergson: I am doing that every day Areyn ^_^
Bejiita Imako:
Ciska Riverstone:
.: Beertje :.:
Areyn Laurasia: That's very good :)
Gemma Allen: and if we had immortal life we could see what is the truth of alll the things that are argued about now globally
Max Chatnoir: I wouldn't mind living a little longer if I weren't falling apart, but we sure would have to stop reproducing, and that might get sort of static.
Gemma Allen: the things that bug us politically
Gemma Allen: etc
Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen: ...LOL...
Areyn Laurasia: power for the few
herman Bergson: We are in power here Gemma :-))
Gemma Allen: hah
Bejiita Imako: hehehe
Areyn Laurasia: if we are immortal, the world's problems would seem so trivial and irrelevant
Gemma Allen: many believe that
herman Bergson: I guess we have enough questions open for the next lecture ^_^
Gemma Allen: Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!!
Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
herman Bergson: Being immortal would be a complete disaster for this world....
Daruma Hermine Boa: dank je wel herman!!
Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye   
Gemma Allen: for now
herman Bergson: Thank you all again....:-)
Areyn Laurasia: yeah.. imagine getting stuck with the same people and issues for all eternity.. XD
Bejiita Imako: cu next time
herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^
Areyn Laurasia: Thanks for the class
Max Chatnoir: If we were immortal, our problems would be crucial!
Ciska Riverstone: thanx all
Daruma Hermine Boa: see u next week
Ciska Riverstone: have a great day or night folks
Bejiita Imako: hugs
Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman.
herman Bergson: Indeed Areyn....:-))
CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

herman Bergson: My pleasure CB :-))

Thursday, January 22, 2015

562: Atheism with a smile...

In my previous lecture I showed you that it was almost a logical consequence of my projects , that I had to arrive at Atheism as new subject.
And again it seems that the subject I have chosen happens to be topical in the minds of many these days. Take the headline of today’s newspaper, for instance.
To the left you see the latest GALLOP poll. It relates to  the answers of the Dutch poll.
At least I already have come to one conclusion: you have to make a clear distinction regarding atheism between the philosophical, psychological and social dimensions.
Analyzing “believing” from an epistemological perspective is something completely different from investigating it from a psychological point of view, for instance.
The question “Why do people believe?” is a psychological question. “What means ‘to believe’?” is a philosophical, epistemological one.
I am really wondering where I stand in the whole debate. Take the four categories of the Dutch headline: Atheist - Agnostic - Somethingist - Believer.
What am I? What are you? I mean, when I look at my stance, I would describe myself like this: 
1. I am an organism that interacts with its environment (life)
2. I am a sentient being and self aware (consciousness)
3. I am capable of knowing things (science)
4. This knowledge of things is the result of my sensory 
    interaction with my environment (learning)
So I am a conscious living being, able to learn and store knowledge in its interaction with its environment and this whole process seems to have only one driving force: to survive.
Now, where should I fit in this phenomenon: religion? I don’t say I am an atheist, for to me it is such a weird idea.
It is like seriously debating the kind of question like “Does the Man in the Moon exist?”
Neither am I an agnostic, because it is so weird to even consider the possibility, that the question, does the Man in the Moon exists, is a meaningful question.
Maybe I am a Somethingist ? Yes, I am. Based on my knowledge of the macro and microcosmos so far, I am willing to assume that there are physical laws of nature.
Laws that govern, for instance, the predictable fact that when I let go of this stone it will fall to the ground and given the same circumstances, it will always fall to the ground.
I even can calculate the speed of its fall and the spot where it will fall, when I use the right mathematics and physical parameters.
But of course, this kind of Something isn’t meant by the Somethingist. Such a person probably suspects that  there is something that goes beyond the laws of nature.
Then, do I believe in God? That is of course the weirdest thing to suggest. However, I have knowledge of the fact that organisms like myself do so.
And as a philosopher that makes me wonder and makes the question “Why is there Atheism?” a meaningful question,
because the fact that other organisms (people) do believe, has a major impact on the interaction between all organisms.
And as a philosopher I observe, that it leads to all kinds of peculiar points of view, which are in contradiction or conflict with my knowledge of myself and the reality, with which I am interacting.
To give you an example: Cicero (106 - 43 BC):
“When you see a sundail or a waterclock, you see that it tells the time by design and not by chance. 
How then can you imagine, that the universe as a whole is devoid of purpose and intelligence?” -end quote-
I would say to Cicero: well, you know how a sundail works and you don’t know how the universe works and you are free to formulate a hypothesis.
However, he didn’t know Galileo, Kepler, Copernicus, Newton and Einstein. With them he could have discussed his hypothesis of the relation between the universe, purpose and intelligence and learn.
So you could say that Cicero is excused, but take these words, published in an interview with a prominent creationist in the New York Times in 2005.
“The physical marks of design are visible in aspects of biology… In the absence of any convincing non-design explanation, we are justified in thinking, that real intelligent design was involved in life” - end quote -
When I read this, I am completely flabbergasted. Especially because the man says that we are “justified” in thinking……
The logic! Because we can not explain X, we are JUSTIFIED to conjure up some other explanation. 
OK. Let me give it a try. The design in nature that you observe, is created by aliens which visited the earth long ago.
Then, why didn’t they ever return? Simple, because they have forgotten about earth.
Take this text. It is a letter, sent to my newspaper by a reader as a reaction on these figures behind me:
“There are now more atheists than believers
(January 17). All well and good, but what take the new atheists as replacement of their old viewpoint? The big bang theory for example, does not solve all riddles of existence.
Stephen Hawking, the famous and publicity-horny physicist who has now a movie running in the theaters, even needs an infinite number of parallel worlds to find a solution for the dilemma. 
I suspect, that those who changed their mind don’t think at all about their change.  -end quote-
Amazing, this line of thinking. First there is the assumption, that there is or has to be an answer to all riddles of existence.
Then there is Stephen Hawkins, who conjures up an infinite number of parallel worlds. Rubbish of course.
And finally  there are those who changed their minds. They don’t think at all.
As you see, why is there atheism? To begin with…. to make us smile.
To be continued…..thank you….the floor is yours ^_^

The Discussion

Daruma Boa claps
herman Bergson: The "of course" was the idea of the writer of the letter, Daruma :-)
Daruma Boa: ah ok
Corona Anatine: i was wondering if the american chart reveals anything abouit US presidents and economic status
herman Bergson: Now tell us about that code in our genes Max...:-)
Max Chatnoir: Well the code has two kinds of repetitive patterns.
herman Bergson: Stick to the subject corona. plz
Corona Anatine: ok DNA code
Max Chatnoir: Blocks of four codons for a single amino acid, and blocks of two codons for a single amino acid.
Corona Anatine: at which instant in tiem would the code have been fixed
Max Chatnoir: They say that if you take a codon from a 4-block and replace the A's with C's and the G's with T's or something like that, that each set of 4 blocks predicts the two blocks.
Corona Anatine: because life evolves and also humans dna has a great proportion shared with other species
Max Chatnoir: So the claim is that pattern must have been designed.
Max Chatnoir: I thought it was an intriguing idea, but I don't like the "aliens" left it.
Daruma Boa: look, we< all live in a matrix^^
Corona Anatine: it is a flawed argument
Max Chatnoir: It's just intelligent design once removed.
Areyn Laurasia: do you have a link to this?
herman Bergson: That is so funny with this theory....
Max Chatnoir: And I think the pattern must have something to do with the relative strengths of the AT and GC pairs.
herman Bergson: Because then we ask the question....Who designed the Designer???
Chantal: Why are "people" so scared of unanswered questions?
Daruma Boa: Ja the funny thing is, that really everything is connected on earth and has a pattern.
Areyn Laurasia: I'm not interested if aliens left a code or not but I would like to know more about the patterns
Daruma Boa: true chantal
Daruma Boa: we are always searching for answers
herman Bergson: Nothing wrong with that....
Max Chatnoir: I think there is a lot we don't understand about the universe.  But it seems -- well -- like a copout to blame anything we don't understand on God or Aliens.
Chantal: which is beautiful and wanted but we should be patient if we cannot find out certain things... we will with time
Corona Anatine: and how would we actually determine whetter aliens designed the gene pattern or not
Max Chatnoir: And it doesn't help!
Corona Anatine: until those alines are actually met
Areyn Laurasia: would you even know them if you met them?
herman Bergson: I wished this would happen one day Corona....
Chantal: Areyn
Ciska Riverstone: if it helps to ease fear until the questions are found why not call it god?
Max Chatnoir: Well, I think it's an interesting phenomenon, and I love science fiction as entertainment or speculation.
Corona Anatine: well those who could visit this systtem would presumable y have the tech
Ciska Riverstone: sorry- answers
Daruma Boa: I guess we  humans have to learn more in life. Perhaps we should connect all on earth and work together without wars. Perhaps that gives us the "enlightenment" and answers we all need.
herman Bergson: Why not call it AUDI or General Motors Ciska? :-)
Areyn Laurasia: it's impossible.. there are wars because of religions
Max Chatnoir: I think that smart technological species may wind up killing themselves before they ever get off planet.
Areyn Laurasia: god, aliens, atheists.. they are just labels for something we don't understand yet
Ciska Riverstone: if that helps ;)
Chantal: Because I wouldn't call it wurlip either... god is nothing
Daruma Boa: ja areyn thats the thing to learn.
Ciska Riverstone: yes areyn
Corona Anatine: and actually my thoughts were relevant Herman - the diagram shows 'can religion fix todays problems' - note the dive int he stats around 2008
herman Bergson: Well....we have to keep one thing in mind....
Ciska Riverstone: you can call it aunt betty if you like that more herman ;)
herman Bergson: Religion is a part of the human culture....
Max Chatnoir: Well, there is a common understanding about "gods" as very powerful beings, so if some individual did make the universe, then...
Corona Anatine: its reflecting presidents and historical/economic things
herman Bergson: We can not deny its existence nor its influence on our existence...
herman Bergson: So we HAVE to question it...
Areyn Laurasia: it's needed to fill a gap, to help explain and understand.. social cohesion
herman Bergson: I donot agree Areyn....
Daruma Boa: but there was no real religion 2015 years ago.
Corona Anatine: max assumes two things a god is singular b god is sentient
herman Bergson: it doesn’t fill any gap nor explains a single thing ....
Max Chatnoir: When you are a little kid, you ask your parents to explain the world.  When you grow up, I think there is a tendency to keep asking that.
Max Chatnoir: No, it doesn't.
Daruma Boa: cos no one anser it really
herman Bergson: it only askes us to BELIEVE it does...
Corona Anatine: of course there was real religion 2015 years ago
Areyn Laurasia: and which religion would that be?
herman Bergson: .
Areyn Laurasia: :)
Daruma Boa: not in a way we do now. we believed in something, but it wasn’t named.
Corona Anatine: first define 'real' religion
Max Chatnoir: And so we think, well, if _I_ can't explain it, some very powerful and omniscient being can.
Corona Anatine: no if nothing else the jewish and vedic religions are far older than 2015 year
herman Bergson: But such thought all lead to an infinite regress Max...
Chantal: Believes in her bed at this point Wishes everyone a good time and thank you Herman and everyone else :)
Max Chatnoir: Exactly.  so don't go there.
Areyn Laurasia: sleep well, Chantal :)
Corona Anatine: night chantal
Chantal: Waves
herman Bergson: Who designed the designer?
Ciska Riverstone: sleep well chantal
Areyn Laurasia: who codes?
Corona Anatine: why does it even have to have a designer
Daruma Boa: that was more a philosophical way. medicine men and scientists these days. they searched active, and tried to find answers. they did not just believe
Max Chatnoir: If I were a protein, I might think that DNA was God.
Daruma Boa: as we do for example.
Areyn Laurasia: because there's a pattern...
Daruma Boa: we only repeat whats in the bible.
Daruma Boa: most do
Areyn Laurasia: if I was a cell, I would think the living organism is God
Corona Anatine: gravity and erosion are not designers but they do form patterns/designs
Max Chatnoir: The rules may only be understood from outside of the system, and we can't GET outside of the system we are in.
Max Chatnoir: so we may have to put up with learning what we can.
herman Bergson: No, we can not go beyond our brain Max....
Daruma Boa: and we have to keep our mind clear
Daruma Boa: without patterns
Max Chatnoir: But not empty.  :-)
Areyn Laurasia: why don't people search for the truth instead of getting lost with labels?
Daruma Boa: with patterns and old learnings and not accepting new things we can not find anything
herman Bergson: That is a serious problem Areyn.....
Daruma Boa: hi rodney^^^
Max Chatnoir: Well, it's like the multiverse thing that Herman referred to.
Corona Anatine: what truth would that be areyn the truth a truth or your truth
Rodney Handrick: Hi Daruma
herman Bergson: for in your remark you suggest that there exists some one single thing named the truth
Areyn Laurasia: all versions of it
Max Chatnoir: That doesn't seem like the best way to account for the value of the universal constants that we see around us.
Corona Anatine: all versions of truth [do you not see the flaw in that statement
Max Chatnoir: The mass of the hydrogen atom, and so forth, are just right.
Max Chatnoir: So two possibilities is that there are universes where it isn't just right.
Corona Anatine: just right for what ?
Areyn Laurasia: duality of nature
Max Chatnoir: Or that for reasons we don't understand yet, it has to be that way.
Areyn Laurasia: There's no best way, just a continuous search for answers
herman Bergson: Question is, Max, has there be a reason.....
Max Chatnoir: Just right for being able to generate the higher elements.
herman Bergson: the concept of 'reason' is our mental construct...
herman Bergson: matter just is....period...I could say
Max Chatnoir: Well, maybe it just IS.
Max Chatnoir: LOL
Max Chatnoir: Yes.
Corona Anatine: do you know how higher elements are formed max?
Areyn Laurasia: when stars die?
Max Chatnoir: by nuclear fusion in stars?
Corona Anatine: partly yes
Max Chatnoir: I'm not a physicist, however.
Corona Anatine: yes coversion of matter by fusion
Corona Anatine: and then helium to oxygen
Corona Anatine: etc up to iron
herman Bergson: And what should that mean Corona?
Corona Anatine: anything beyond iron requires supoernova
Door Deluxe Plus: Valcyrie Resident has just entered your land !
Max Chatnoir: Good thing carbon is small.  :-)
herman Bergson: very nice, but what does it mean in relation to atheism?
Corona Anatine: amazingly enough elemental rarity correlates to star formation frequencies
Corona Anatine: i am a 'really don’t care about godist ' so have no idea
herman Bergson: ok :-)
Areyn Laurasia: when one starts of thinking is there a god or is there not a god, are they asking the right question?
Corona Anatine: no
Corona Anatine: because until we define 'god' the question has no meaning
Areyn Laurasia: and what if, in the end.. god and science are one? :)
herman Bergson: You know Areyn....this god idea.....we are stuck with it due to culture and history....
Max Chatnoir: I agree.  If we were descended from something other than primates, it might be different.  Or maybe not.
herman Bergson: But if you just forget about it...the whole debate becomes so meaningless
Corona Anatine: indeed herman
herman Bergson: So..this "believing in a god" is a psychological issue....
Corona Anatine: we can only put forward the p most likely explanation given the known and available evidence to date
herman Bergson: to begin with...
Corona Anatine: science has no 'end' as such
Max Chatnoir: Well, science is a way of looking at the world, and describing reality.  There are things it can't tell us.  Like how should be treat one another.
Max Chatnoir: That's what philosophy is for:  truth, beauty and goodness.
herman Bergson: No MAx....
Corona Anatine: well how we should treat each other can be subject to mathematical equations
Max Chatnoir: No?
herman Bergson: I wouldn't look for truth as a philosopher :-)
Corona Anatine: it says nothing about how se should
Max Chatnoir: yes, but those equations might be based on nonscientific assumptions.
Areyn Laurasia: everyone has their own truths, why must there be only one? :)
Corona Anatine: wher eis the dividing line science/non science
herman Bergson: I would look for understanding...
Daruma Boa: true areyn
Daruma Boa: i think there can not be only one
Daruma Boa: life is too complex for that
herman Bergson: Areyn...you really create a huge problem here...!!!!
Daruma Boa: *GIGGLES* :)~~~~
herman Bergson: Take this....
Areyn Laurasia: sorry about that.. I was just thinking aloud :)
herman Bergson: I say A is TRUE....that is my truth...
Daruma Boa: and we all have to life with that answer
herman Bergson: You say NOT-A is true, that is your truth...
Daruma Boa: that there arte many answers
Daruma Boa: and more than one truth
herman Bergson: Now we live in contradicting worlds....that can not be true ^_^
Corona Anatine: but only one of the two A or not a are actually true externally
Areyn Laurasia: we do actually...
Corona Anatine: regradles sof which is right only one of the two can be
herman Bergson: To be more specific...I say the earth is flat, You Areyn say that the earth is a globe...
Max Chatnoir: None of the worlds great social systems is without flaw.
Corona Anatine: and..
herman Bergson: Which truth is the truth here???
Max Chatnoir: Great meaning governing a lot of people.
Max Chatnoir: Capitalism can be brutal.
Areyn Laurasia: yes, the earth is flat on your screen and on a map, but it's real shape is a globe.. both holds true
Max Chatnoir: Communism can be brutal.
Max Chatnoir: Socialism can be brutal.
herman Bergson: Hold on Areyn...you cheat !!!!
herman Bergson: all of a sudden you come up with the REAL shape...
Ciska Riverstone: it always depends on the reference system
Corona Anatine: actaully its not a globe in space-time
Areyn Laurasia: *smiles*
herman Bergson: so that is the REAL truth? :-))
Areyn Laurasia: no..
Max Chatnoir: But that's because you can get outside of it, Areyn.
.: Beertje :.: sorry it's late...I have to go to sleep
Areyn Laurasia: the truth is it's based on the context ;)
Ciska Riverstone: sleep well beertje
Daruma Boa: night beertje
.: Beertje :.: goodnight and thank you Herman
Daruma Boa: welterusten
Corona Anatine: nite Beertje
herman Bergson: Sweet dreams Beertje :-)
Areyn Laurasia: good night Beertje
.: Beertje :.: welterusten:)
Rodney Handrick: goodnight beertije
Ciska Riverstone:
Max Chatnoir: Goodnight, little bear.  :-)
herman Bergson: WEll..I think it might the the subject of the next lecture....to look at the psychology of believing...
Ciska Riverstone:
Daruma Boa: oh ja. interesting^^
Max Chatnoir: Sounds like fun.  :-)
Corona Anatine: okies
Areyn Laurasia: do I need to bring a gag next class? :)
herman Bergson: Oh yes Max....it IS fun :-)
Corona Anatine: thanks herman good presentation
Ciska Riverstone whispers: (and finding out atheiss believe too ;) )
Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
herman Bergson: Why should you Areyn ? ^_^
Areyn Laurasia: think I'm more of a somethingist...
Daruma Boa: thank you herman. see u thursday. good night and welterusten^^
Areyn Laurasia: goes and hunt codons..
herman Bergson: You are quite something indeed Areyn ^_^
Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman.  This always goes so fast!
Areyn Laurasia: lol...
Areyn Laurasia: I want to challenge the way I think
herman Bergson: Thank you all again....
Ciska Riverstone: thank you all - good day or night folks
Areyn Laurasia: of course.. most of the time.. I don't even know what I'm thinking... need to find structure
herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^
Max Chatnoir: Oh, I'm suspecting the stability of the GC pair.  ALL of the codons that are only GC are four-blocks.
Rodney Handrick: Thanks Herman
Max Chatnoir: All of the codons that are AT are two blocks.
Corona Anatine: as are cg
Max Chatnoir: So somewhere in there is an explanation.
Corona Anatine: an explanation of randomness
herman Bergson: You figure out the code, Max, and tell us next time :-))
Corona Anatine: more plausible from the alien visitor idea is chromosome 2
Areyn Laurasia: why must there be an alien involved?
Corona Anatine: there doenst
Max Chatnoir: Well, I have a preference for natural explanations.
Corona Anatine: but if the idea has any plausbile basis
Areyn Laurasia: this would be a fun puzzle to solve
Corona Anatine: then chromosome two would be the place to statrt looking
Max Chatnoir: I'll try to find a link and send it to Herman.
Max Chatnoir: I don't think we need aliens for chromosome 2.
Corona Anatine: we dont
herman Bergson: This idea of aliens doesnt answer a thing....
Corona Anatine: but if there wer ealines inlvoled
Max Chatnoir: No, it isn't helpful.
Corona Anatine: then that would be the place to look
herman Bergson: It is a lovely thought, appealing....but makes no sense at all :-)
Areyn Laurasia: blocks of 4.. blocks of 2... 42!!! The answer to everything
Max Chatnoir: Yes, it's an entertaining notion.
herman Bergson: But we LOVE consipacy theories...
herman Bergson: conspiracy
Max Chatnoir: LOL.  I didn't notice that.  good for you!
herman Bergson: But philosophically totallly uninteresting....
Max Chatnoir: and scientifically uninteresting.
Max Chatnoir: Unless there is an alien at hand...
herman Bergson: yes...for it moves the question just to another station...
Max Chatnoir: Exactly.
herman Bergson: Yes Max.....I already have been waiting for the alien all my life...
Corona Anatine: goodnight all
Areyn Laurasia: goodnight Corona..
herman Bergson: but so far...they only made it to Hollywood...
Max Chatnoir: Goodnight, Corona.
Rodney Handrick: Goodnight Corona
Max Chatnoir: Have you read The Book of Strange New Things?
Areyn Laurasia: what would the code lead to? an improved species?
Max Chatnoir: Well, the code has already lead to lots of species.  :-)
herman Bergson: The Book of Strange New Things? No...what is it?
Max Chatnoir: It's about a missionary to a distant planet.
Max Chatnoir: Lovely little novel, and doesn't fall into any of the usual plot twists.
Rodney Handrick: http://www.amazon.com/The-Book-Strange-New-Things/dp/055341884X
herman Bergson: a missionary...oh my....what belief was he representing?
Max Chatnoir: That's it.
Max Chatnoir: Some kind of fairly conservative Christian, I think.  That isn't really clear.
Areyn Laurasia: isn't reality already quite strange these days?
herman Bergson: yes Areyn...it is....
herman Bergson: But I discovered one thing....
herman Bergson: it is mainly due to our misconception of ourselves...
Max Chatnoir: That's probably a good insight.
herman Bergson: We have a brain....we think and we believe that it is a consistent machine...
herman Bergson: but it isn't at all....
herman Bergson: it is one big mess of conflicting systems
Areyn Laurasia: yet there is a pattern in there somewhere
herman Bergson: emotions, rationality, logic, impulses....one big mess :-)
Max Chatnoir: Yes, that's a good point.  And I'm sure it influences the kinds of gods that we create.
herman Bergson: yes there is Areyn..ad we call it the "Self"
herman Bergson: Oh yes Max....
Areyn Laurasia: do people with the same kind of religion have the same kind of skull structure?
Max Chatnoir: Maybe the same kinds of social structure.
herman Bergson: The fact that we have some idea about a "SELF", keeps us in one piece mentally....
Rodney Handrick: That's a new one...
herman Bergson: skull structure????Areyn....
Rodney Handrick: Birds of a feather?
herman Bergson: Are you back to Phrenology???:-)
Areyn Laurasia: remember some previous class? about thoughts
Areyn Laurasia: how the skull shape the brain.. and how the brain shapes the thoughts?
Max Chatnoir: I think that fact that we talk to ourselves is interesting.
herman Bergson: The skull has developed through the millions of years indeed...
herman Bergson: I think I'll get back to that Max......for that is a funny issue indeed
Max Chatnoir: So is there more than one self in there to talk to?
Max Chatnoir: And if we talk to God, is that another self?
herman Bergson: lol....a classic Max....
herman Bergson: When I say..I talk to myself....
Areyn Laurasia: some people believe the God is the person him or herself :)
Max Chatnoir: In which case, it's not surprising that we can't agree on the nature of God.
herman Bergson: then this "I" must be someone else than this "myself"
Max Chatnoir: Well, I can see that next week will be interesting.
herman Bergson: Will be next Thursday , Max :-)
herman Bergson: Might keep yu locked in for the rest of the week.:-))
Max Chatnoir: Oh, right!  I have to take my husband to the dentist, so I'll be trying out my SL mobile.
Max Chatnoir: See you Thursday, then.
herman Bergson: OK..:-))
Max Chatnoir: Bye Areyn and Rodney.
Areyn Laurasia: good night
Rodney Handrick: Bye Max
Rodney Handrick: See you later
Areyn Laurasia: it's such a coincidence to just listen to dna music.. come to philosophy class and find a mention of dna again..

Tuesday, January 20, 2015

561: Why atheism ?

Why is there atheism….what for? I think it was CB Axel who said: “Shouldn’t the question be …Why is there theism? “
Yes you could start at the other end of the street, but it is still the same street. But in both cases I would have had the problem that I am facing now.
In 2007 I started with my first project: 100 Philosophers. The trick was, that I used the book f Peter Stokes, “100 Essential Thinkers” as a guideline.
I never had to ponder about the content of the next lecture. I just picked the next philosopher from the book.
And that was my method: at the basis of every project there was a book or a number of books. They contained the trail of bread crumbs I followed.
Where I am now, began with the project “The Mystery of the Brain”. When I wrote my thesis in 1977 which was about the Mind - Body problem, nothing, what we know now, was known about the brain.
Thence the project was really exciting and an eye-opener for me and also for those who attended this class.
In relation to our present subject one of the most interesting observations was the “God helmet” of Koren and Persinger.
Although questioned, they alleged, that the helmet generated experiences, which looked similar to stories of Saints seeing divine apparitions.
Another part of this project was the book “We are our Brain” by Dick Swaab (2010), which filled in a lot of gaps in explaining emotions, beliefs, sensory experiences and so on and the brain.
Then there was the project on Non-Western Philosophies and the observation that only the Western philosophy had produced science as it is now.
Worse even, Islamic philosophy got completely stuck in explaining the Quran after 1100 A.D and that, while knowledge of Aristotle, medicine, mathematics  and astronomy were parts of its culture.
All non-Western philosophies seemed to be concerned only with the question of how to be a good human being, how to live a good life.
One exception might be in India with the Ajivika and Carvaka schools of atomism which emerged about the 6th century BCE as an alternative to the orthodox Hindu pro-Vedic schools.
The Carvaka school of philosophy was a true materialist or naturalist philosophy. A naturalism aligns philosophy with science and the natural world, rejecting the supernatural.
As for Carvaka philosophy, there is no continuity after the 12th century, probably eclipsed by Hinduism.
It was a small step to continue with a project with the title “Why Science is Right”. It relates to a similar issue: the separation of state and religion which we have achieved to various extends.
In my case it was about the separation of science and religion. The relation science = atheism emerged in particular after 1859, after Darwin’s “On the Origin of Species”.
The foundations for the separation of science and religion, however, were already created  in the Age of Enlightenment, an era from the 1650s to the 1780s 
in which cultural and intellectual forces in Western Europe emphasized reason, analysis and individualism rather than traditional lines of authority, that is, religion.
Thence there could not have been another outcome. I had to pay attention to atheism, because religion had become such a peculiar feature of human behavior to me.
But I had and stil have no book to use as my guideline.  One of the reasons is that there is so much information on this subject.
Another reason is that I have some unphilosophical  intuition that  atheism or visa versa theism is such a nonsense subject, but fun.
I’ll keep working on it, but at least today I  want to make one final point. When I ask the question “Why is there atheism?”
I look at that map on the wall to the left of me and then I like to bring to your attention just his: 
The United Nations Human Rights Committee explains article 18 of The  Universal Declaration of Human Rights thus:
1. The right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion (which includes the freedom to hold beliefs) in article 18.1 is far-reaching and profound; 
it encompasses freedom of thought on all matters, personal conviction and the commitment to religion or belief, whether manifested individually or in community with others….
2. Article 18 protects theistic, non-theistic and atheistic beliefs, as well as the right not to profess any religion or belief. The terms ‘belief’ and ‘religion’ are to be broadly construed. 
Article 18 is not limited in its application to traditional religions or to religions and beliefs with institutional characteristics or practices analogous to those of traditional religions.
Only the GREEN countries on the map respect this article 18 for 100%. I hope you have your magnifying glass with you. THIS is our world.
I guess, all religions have something to explain,…….. to begin with….. and I think that questioning theism makes good sense.
Thank you, ………… the floor is yours… ^_^

The  Discussion

Corona Anatine: no its free to use
herman Bergson: By clicking the map you'll get the URL where you can download the report on Freedom of Thought
Daruma Boa: religion is a kind of seeing the world. or better, explaining the world.
herman Bergson: it is free
Freedom of Thought : The Philosophy Class: Lectures every Tuesday and Thursday at 1 PM SL-time, free access
Freedom of Thought: Freedom of Thought at Wainscot has just been used by Bejiita Imako!
Freedom of Thought : The Philosophy Class: Lectures every Tuesday and Thursday at 1 PM SL-time, free access
Freedom of Thought: Freedom of Thought at Wainscot has just been used by Max Chatnoir!
herman Bergson: I have read a lot of horror stories....
herman Bergson: but this report is oen of the "best"
Corona Anatine:  except it does neither Daruma 
Tama Ahn: netherlands centric map hehe
Corona Anatine: not sre why its called a freedom of thought report = woul;d be more accurately caleld restriction of thought report
Areyn Laurasia: I'm surprised to see some countries in black
Corona Anatine: well look which nationas are black
Gemma Allen: serious countries too
Corona Anatine: bigt chuck ar eislamic
Corona Anatine: and china
herman Bergson: China, Saoudi Arabia....doesn’t surprise me
Areyn Laurasia: because it's like the only place I ever saw church, temple and mosque in a row
Corona Anatine: what is the one on coats of south america
herman Bergson: Venezuela
Gemma Allen: oh yes
Corona Anatine: and chile - no surprise eairht really
Max Chatnoir: Aweful lot of red and black
herman Bergson: You would expect te US and Europe to be green......
Corona Anatine: no
Max Chatnoir: New World/ Old World
herman Bergson: But as you see...it isn’t the case
Tama Ahn: netherlands where they scare cartoonist with police squats in the morning lifting him from his bed
Tama Ahn: all green
Bejiita Imako: the world is terrible now in general. Just look what IS and Boko Haram are doing at moment, wiping out entire towns with 1000s of people cause of their screwed up alterned image if islam
Corona Anatine: it would be nice if they were  but not expected they are yellow or orange
Bejiita Imako: its really sad
Corona Anatine: interesting why a small nation on west african coast is green
herman Bergson: I really do not know what is motivating these people Bejiita...
Areyn Laurasia: is the report biased?
CB Axel: I would like to see this map divide up the US by state.
herman Bergson: And more so, I don't know who is financing these people!!!!
Bejiita Imako: not me either, its like they are posessed by demons or something
Corona Anatine: as is Montenegro and a tiny part of the baltic states
Corona Anatine: oh and Taiwan also
Areyn Laurasia: it's seeing injustice in the world and suffering and a lack of help, Bejiita
herman Bergson: I cant get rid of the idea that Boko Haran and IS are USED by those who finance them.....for their own agenda
Corona Anatine: would that be any othe rway herman
Gemma Allen: and last week killed about 2000 people
CB Axel: You mean like how American voters are used by those who finance elections?
Corona Anatine: 200 that got news coverage
Bejiita Imako: yes, was kind of depressed when i head about it
herman Bergson: Yes CB...something like that....
Bejiita Imako: its getting worse and worse
Max Chatnoir: I have speculated that religion is an extension of social or community relations -- a local deity is an uber alpha male.   And if you are his buddy, then you are friends with the uber alpha male.
Bejiita Imako: :(
Gemma Allen: little new coverage
Corona Anatine: exactly
Areyn Laurasia: how many million went to march in solidarity for a few and ignored the millions?
Corona Anatine: the 2000 were just those that got mentioned
Bejiita Imako: probably even more got wiped out or getting right now at moment
Bejiita Imako: i feel so powerless, Wish i could do something but I cant
herman Bergson: But to get back to our main issue here.....
Areyn Laurasia: you can
Bejiita Imako: poor people
Corona Anatine: no very little we can do
Areyn Laurasia: become aware
herman Bergson: This map shows what religions and ideologies do to freedom of thought
Corona Anatine: the map strongly resembles the map covering women status and LGBT rights
herman Bergson: And you asked Is this a biased picture, Areyn...
Corona Anatine: alwasy a dark patch from north africa to indai
Areyn Laurasia: yes
herman Bergson: In a way I would say YES.....
Tama Ahn: no in iran you can get a sex change .. just cant be gay
Areyn Laurasia: Things look very different from the street..
herman Bergson: It is biased in the sense that it takes the Universal Human rights as standard
hyacinth: I don't know if it's religion that limits freedom of thought. 
herman Bergson: And not all countries in the world agree with that standard....China as number one in this
Areyn Laurasia: There are supposedly more christians in China than Europe?
Max Chatnoir: there are more PEOPLE in china than in Europe!
herman Bergson: Yes and China has become less restricting on christians....
Tama Ahn: yeh only last year or so?
herman Bergson: but that is not a matter of freedom of thought, but a pragmatic choice
herman Bergson: If you cant fight them, join them...so to speak
Max Chatnoir: Like Christianity in Constantinian Rome?
herman Bergson: I dont know Max :-)
Corona Anatine: why is Germany so restrictive of thought - i would have thought it was orange
herman Bergson: plz read the report Corona
Corona Anatine: yes of course that would explain things
herman Bergson: But I get the feeling that atheism today is a result of conflicting cultures....
Tama Ahn: how?
herman Bergson: Like Islam conficts with Western culture like Huntington predicted that would be the future
science24: included but not limited to that
Gemma Allen: i get the impression Germany is having a real pullback on beliefs
Areyn Laurasia: even if some claims western government is more like islamic than the islamic countries?
herman Bergson: Yes there to conflict is out in the streets...
Max Chatnoir: That's an interesting idea.  You don't want to pick a side so you pick no side?
Daruma Boa: we have in Germany a lot of problems with belief;-)
Daruma Boa: these days it causes only problems.
Max Chatnoir: Being an atheist is better than choosing the wrong version of God?
Gemma Allen: interesting thought
Areyn Laurasia: how about being spiritual but not belonging to any denomination of religion|?
Daruma Boa: what is the wrong version?
Corona Anatine: 550 odd pages -it can wait :
science24: to some extent Max, but atheism is a side
herman Bergson: Well that is such an issue....in the atheist debate....
Daruma Boa: true areyn. i think we are on our way to see this.
Max Chatnoir: But not an alliance with somebody's uber alpha male.
Corona Anatine: that suggests there is a rigth version of 'god' possible
Daruma Boa: not to decide for one side.
herman Bergson: they pick just one god....the christian one....
herman Bergson: most of the time....
Gemma Allen: I rea part of that report during vacation
herman Bergson: That is understandable in a cultural sense but in fact so weird....
herman Bergson: I guess it did not make you happy Gemma
Corona Anatine: couldnt we just nuke all the black bits of the world and thereby make it more free thinking
Daruma Boa: hey Rodney. punctual as ever^^^
Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen: ...LOL...
Gemma Allen: incredible
Rodney Handrick: Hi Daruma
Bejiita Imako: hi Rodney
Ciska Riverstone: lets paint it pink - worked already once ;)
Daruma Boa waves
Max Chatnoir: Do muslims have missionaries?  I really don't know.
Rodney Handrick: Hi Bejiita
Corona Anatine: not in a christian sense
herman Bergson: I would say NO Daruma because the nuking is an act of totally unfree thinking :-)
Gemma Allen: i am sure they do
herman Bergson: I would say Yes Max...
Gemma Allen: imams who open mosques
Ciska Riverstone: not sure if they do max - but i met one already ;)
herman Bergson: They stood for the gates of Vienna somewhere around...what was it...1300 or so...1400?
herman Bergson: Bringing the Islam to Europe
herman Bergson: Killing the infidel
hyacinth: depends what you call a missionary.
Max Chatnoir: Ah, good point.
Corona Anatine: also it is good that most of the world is blue - showing how free from restricive thought dolphins and whales are
Object:  Frans de Waal has just been used by CB Axel!
Daruma Boa: herman i missed the point. why no?
Max Chatnoir: But was that a missionary or an invasion?
CB Axel: So jihadists are missionaries?
Areyn Laurasia: time to move to the oceans....
Daruma Boa: *GIGGLES* :)~~~~
herman Bergson: But their missionaries are most of the time fully armed...we now call thenm terrorists
Gemma Allen: but there are missionaries as those who wish ot convert new
Gemma Allen: members
CB Axel: Well, look at how the Crusaders treated "infidels."
Gemma Allen: anywhere in the world
Max Chatnoir: True.
Gemma Allen: now not then
Max Chatnoir: Not exactly peaceful.
Areyn Laurasia: there are extremists in any religion
herman Bergson: WellCB...if you assume that they act from faith....they are spreading their faith by killing the infidel
Gemma Allen: i think there are even extreme atheists
herman Bergson: It is a bad marketing strategy....but yet....
hyacinth: yes
Max Chatnoir: Like killing doctors that give abortions.
Ciska Riverstone: yes gemma
Max Chatnoir: Those people think they are acting from faith.
hyacinth: Islam also has peaceful missionaries and apologists
herman Bergson: Yes Max....
Gemma Allen: yes they do
CB Axel: Killing abortion doctors is giving the death penalty to murderers, in their eyes.
Max Chatnoir: no due process.
herman Bergson: But I do not know where in the Bilble is written that you have the right to kill and murder
Gemma Allen: oh goodness in the old testament
Max Chatnoir: In fact, I think it says not to.
Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen: ...LOL...
Gemma Allen: lots of places
Corona Anatine: the thing is Herman doesn’t acturally teach us philosophy -he gets us to teach ourselves philosophy
Gemma Allen: eye for an eye
Bejiita Imako: hehe
hyacinth: as a pro life person, people who bomb ND terrorize abortionists make me so angry.
Areyn Laurasia: and the world goes blind....
herman Bergson: I am not the oracle indeed, Corona ^_^
Areyn Laurasia: so how are we going to have freedom of thought? by letting people have a chance to live as they will, in peace first?
Max Chatnoir: You're Socrates.  :-)
CB Axel looks for hemlock to hide.
herman Bergson: That might be a goos start Areyn
Bejiita Imako:
Corona Anatine: yeah you just us the roadsigns - we have to travel there ourselves
herman Bergson: Thoughts never kill....they may however annoy you :-)
herman Bergson: goos means good :-)
herman Bergson: Though maybe a goose is wiser than we are :-)
CB Axel: In typonese
Tama Ahn: how exactly is freedom of thought given? doesn't that imply it's not free.. but somehow handed to you?
Max Chatnoir: :-)
Tama Ahn: heh
Corona Anatine: who could say
Max Chatnoir: What a good question!
Areyn Laurasia: brainwashed from young.. ^.^
Corona Anatine: geese lack religion so perhaps they are
CB Axel: We're all free to think. We just all can't express our thoughts or act on them freely.
herman Bergson: Difficult question, for freedom exists only in relation to limitations, boundaries
Tama Ahn: yeh, and what is seen as crime in one country isn’t in another
herman Bergson: where does freedom end?
Corona Anatine: where it begins ?
Daruma Boa: does freedom end?
Areyn Laurasia: start free and lose it all fighting for freedom
Max Chatnoir: where you start bullying people who don't agree with you.
Daruma Boa: ja the fighting has to stop.
Bejiita Imako: yes
Daruma Boa: just be free. easy words but hard to do
Max Chatnoir: The person who fires the first shot has lost the argument.
herman Bergson: Well I guess there can be an answer....
Areyn Laurasia: or fuel the fire for a few world wars
herman Bergson: Maybe we should not think in terms of absolute freedom.....
Corona Anatine: an answer yes the answer maybe
Daruma Boa: no max. i guess times change. also when peeps die these days.
herman Bergson: we all live in contexts...
Daruma Boa: but we also saw in paris, that a pencil is harder that an weapon
herman Bergson: a social context, a moral context , a religious context....
Ciska Riverstone: people need to learn to disagree... and not feel that thats the end of the world as they know it.
Max Chatnoir: Yes, there has to be some kind of social consensus.
Daruma Boa: and I hope this will grow
Corona Anatine: well all have absolute freedom of thought - just not of expressing it
CB Axel: I agree, Ciska
Daruma Boa: the power of the pencil and the freedom of mind
herman Bergson: so in the context of religion/non-religion you can speak of total freedam...
Corona Anatine: but
Gemma Allen: interesting that most people hated that magazine but came out to defend it
Corona Anatine: relgion tends to narrow the focus of thoughts questions
Areyn Laurasia: could it be a ploy by the magazine to gain readership?
Daruma Boa: i did not hate it^^
Gemma Allen: omg
Gemma Allen: OMG!!!
Corona Anatine: what
Max Chatnoir: It sure did gain readership, but I can't believe it was a plot.
Tama Ahn: i didnt know about the magazine lol
herman Bergson: Oh my...the conspirecy theory :-)
Corona Anatine: the hired hitmen to kill them just to boost sales figures
Gemma Allen: ah it was satirical and offended every one
Bejiita Imako: eeeeh?
Bejiita Imako: that seems improbable
CB Axel: Like Sony claimed they were hacked to get people to care about a silly movie?
Ciska Riverstone: the sad thing is that in this crazy world we almost belive that
Max Chatnoir: If you don't like a magazine, don't buy it.
Gemma Allen: nono
Gemma Allen: that is sony!!!
Corona Anatine: no someone else might have done so [maybe] but not the mag itself
Gemma Allen: we are talking about charie hebdo
Gemma Allen: in Paris
herman Bergson: there we talk of freedom of thought too....
CB Axel: I know.
.: Beertje :.: could it be a ploy by the magazine to gain readership? how can you think such a thing?
CB Axel: But it's another conspiracy theory.
Tama Ahn: lol
Gemma Allen: oh wow
Daruma Boa: true beertje. sometimes funny some thoughts.
Daruma Boa: but ist also to handle the fear you have
.: Beertje :.: it's not funny,,it's scary
Daruma Boa: humans like to think very unusual things, just to have "peace" for her fears
Gemma Allen: i think that thought would scare most conspiracy theorists
Ciska Riverstone: it is Beertje - the scary thing is that for a millisecond you can almost take it into consideration these days :/
Tama Ahn: oh now people shooting with automatic weapons are scary all of a sudden?
Tama Ahn: hehe
Areyn Laurasia: maybe I hang around people who question too much :)
Tama Ahn: guess they are
Corona Anatine: there is a more significant item currently than charlie - and that is raif badawi
Gemma Allen: true
Rodney Handrick: true
Bejiita Imako: ah
CB Axel: yes
Corona Anatine: 1000 lashes for aiming to have a free debate on liberalism
herman Bergson: Who is that Corona....
Daruma Boa: corona its all together. all things that happen in a sum have a reason.
Corona Anatine: saudi prisoner
Daruma Boa: u can not separate that.
Gemma Allen: it may be that that north of the equator is considered still more civilized
Daruma Boa: its a process of human beings
Daruma Boa: of the sociall life
herman Bergson: Ahh the Saoudi man who was sentenced to 1000 lashes?!
Corona Anatine: or Gemma - the map suggests that the hotter the climate the more restrcitibe the thinking
Max Chatnoir: Well, south of the Equator is mostly ocean.  :-)
CB Axel: But he lives in a black country on the map. Charlie Hebdo is in a yellow one.
Corona Anatine: maybe heat makes thought less liberal
CB Axel: One expects that there\
Corona Anatine: not as far as the extremists are concerned
Corona Anatine: for them the whole world is black
.: Beertje :.: look how red Syberia is....and it's COLD there
herman Bergson: From an evolutionary point of view it might be the case that the stuggle to survive is due to that...
Max Chatnoir: In a black country, Charlie Hebdo would never have been published.
herman Bergson: No Max...indeed
Areyn Laurasia: out of respect for others? or out of fear?
Max Chatnoir: Repression.
CB Axel: fear
Corona Anatine: thus it is a bigger thing that Raif did
CB Axel: true
Tama Ahn: if our countries were being thorn by war and rebels and violent revolutions around some corner we would perhaps also have more restrictions on the expressions and thinking stuff i suppose
herman Bergson: China even said that we have to rethink our concept of freedom of press because it provokes people and makes them terrorists
Gemma Allen: hah
Max Chatnoir: Hmmm.
Corona Anatine: well china would say that perhaps
Max Chatnoir: Look what you made me do?
herman Bergson: It did Corona....
herman Bergson: Their central Press Office
Bejiita Imako: ok
Corona Anatine: yes but being china would it have said anything else
.: Beertje :.: so it's our fault what the terrorists did?
Corona Anatine: many beleive so
herman Bergson: It regarded the freedom of press in the Western world as one of the causes of terrorism...
Tama Ahn: our fault ? i didnt even choose to get born lol
Areyn Laurasia: and we all live in interesting times...
.: Beertje :.: they are jalous
.: Beertje :.: at our way of living and freedom
herman Bergson: Then it was someone else who chose for you Tama:-)
Tama Ahn: seems so
Max Chatnoir: Well, if you poke at a bully, there is a good chance of getting punched, so there is something in that, but doesn't that policy just encourage bullies?
CB Axel: I think they're more afraid of our way of living and freedom.
Corona Anatine: well according to orthodox islamic belief - by being born you are automatically muslim
Areyn Laurasia: a bully wouldn't be a bully unless they are insecure and feel a need to reclaim some sort of power/balance?
herman Bergson: Well I think you've got enough to think about now.....
Bejiita Imako: indeed
herman Bergson: Have a look at the report....
Bejiita Imako: hehe
Daruma Boa: can be^^^
Corona Anatine: 542 pages worth thanks herman appreciated
Tama Ahn: anyway the fairytale believes are just a tool in war, but you are right to say the younger religions still need to have the process of domestication
herman Bergson: And let me thank you all again for your participation.....
Daruma Boa: thank you very much herman.
Bejiita Imako: this was interesting
CB Axel: That "bullies are insecure" theory, I believe, is not necessarily true. I think some bullies just feel entitled to superiority.
Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman- thanx all
herman Bergson: We'll continue next Tuesday :-))
Bejiita Imako: gonna read through that PDF later
Corona Anatine: thnaks Herman
herman Bergson: and now some fun :-)
Bejiita Imako: cu tuesday
Corona Anatine: good presentation
Daruma Boa: ja cu tuesday
Daruma Boa: oi
Bejiita Imako: hehehe
Tama Ahn: 542 pages good luck
Daruma Boa: *GIGGLES* :)~~~~
Corona Anatine: hmm Herman griefs his own class
CB Axel: Thank you, herman. See you all on Tuesday.
Areyn Laurasia: lots of reading...
.: Beertje :.: smiles
Bejiita Imako: hehehehe
herman Bergson: Class dismissed ...^_^
bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman and class!
Gemma Allen: Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!!
bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
Daruma Boa waves
Rodney Handrick: Thanks

.: Beertje :.: have a goodnight all:)