Wednesday, October 28, 2020

878: On Liberalism Again....

 Gemma is trying already for years to explain to us what liberalism means in the American context. So much is clear, it doesn't mean the same as what it means in Europe.


It may be somewhat like a caricature, but I get the impression that American political thinking by politicians focuses only on money


and how the State gets it money and how it is spend on behalf of and for the good of the individual.


In relation to the question of how the State gets its money, there is the issue of property. To what extend has the State a say in what your property is, how you create it, and so on.


There is nothing philosophical here, only interests of many parties in the political debate. In that debate economics has become the new religion and economic growth the god,


which brought Faust in the previous discussion to the statement that politics should  not be about economic growth but much more about well-being.


In all this we hear a faint echo of the words of John Locke (1632 -1704). Locke’s influence appears in countless speeches and writings of the Founding Fathers.


For instance, the "Declaration and Resolves of the First Continental Congress",which was written  by authors such as John Adams and George Washington, quotes Locke almost verbatim in resolving “[Colonists] are entitled to life, liberty and property.”

In 1689 Locke wrote "Two Treatises on Government". He begins his second dissertation by sketching a hypothetical situation that he describes as the state of nature.


In doing so, he starts from three axioms. The first axiom is that in the state of nature people are completely free to dispose of themselves and their possessions. 


It means that they are not subject to any rulers and must obey only natural law.


The second axiom says that people in that situation are equals. There is no one who has more power than others 


and so you should never treat the other as a means for your own ends, let alone damage him in some way.


The third axiom holds that there is a law of nature that applies to all people. It is an eternal and unwritten law 


that is written in the heart of every person and is also called by Locke the "law of reason".

The latter does not mean that natural law is a purely rational matter. The concept mainly has a normative meaning. It refers to what is good and ultimately expresses the will of God.


Whatever the case, these axioms converge in the state of nature. It is a situation in which people are not subject to any ruler, 


in which they are not allowed to submit to others and in which coexistence takes shape in a reasonable way, in other words a situation of freedom, equality and natural law. 


Of course it sounds very idyllic, but of course there are always bad guys.


Like Locke writes,"In essence, violent or aggressive behavior entails a state of war, that is, a situation that differs from the natural in every respect. 


It is precisely that kind of enmity that makes people give up their natural state to form a political community. ” - end quote -


Are these the basics of a liberal society?....


Thank you for your attention again.....


MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Gabriel van den Brink:"Ruw Ontwaken uit een Neoliberale Droom",, 2020


The Discussion


[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you, Herman

[13:18] CB Axel: So no man is subject to any ruler other than some god?

[13:18] herman Bergson: Individual freedom and the right to own property are the starting point.....

[13:19] herman Bergson: Not really CB

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):I would say not subject to any ruler more than any other living creature

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as u said

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to nature

[13:19] herman Bergson: See it in the context of Locke's time...

[13:19] herman Bergson: Everybody believed in some kind of Christianity...

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): rulers and gods are our creation

[13:19] herman Bergson: The natural order was a creation of god...

[13:20] herman Bergson: But the basis of the natural law wasn't god, but reason according to Locke

[13:20] CB Axel: Everybody believed in some kind of god, not Christianity.

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes but other animals don't believe actively  in a god, they just go on as they do with no thought of any ruler

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just their basic drives

[13:21] herman Bergson: in 1700 everybody believed only in the Christian god

[13:21] CB Axel: Man created gods to make other humans behave.

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:21] CB Axel: Jews and Muslims would argue that.

[13:21] herman Bergson: That's a different story...

[13:21] CB Axel: Most people did believe in one god.

[13:22] herman Bergson: Indeed...main thing here is this monotheism....

[13:22] herman Bergson: That justified the absolutism in those days....

[13:22] herman Bergson: the king appointed by god himself

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and all meaningless wars created by conflicts between religions claiming there is only THEIR god

[13:22] herman Bergson: And that is what Locke opposed to

[13:23] CB Axel: Right

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Locke seemed to think very straight that's for sure

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:23] herman Bergson: and thence was created our society....a society of individuals....

[13:23] CB Axel: It's the basis of democracies that kings are not given their rights by a god.

[13:24] CB Axel: I should have said rulers, not kings.

[13:24] herman Bergson: Locke's ideas have been so influential...I always am surprised to see how just ONE person can influence all of history

[13:25] CB Axel: Probably because that one person's ideas give everyone more of a say in government.

[13:25] herman Bergson: What Locke was thinking was of course already in the air in his days....

[13:26] herman Bergson: What Locke said were the basics of the US Consitution....

[13:27] herman Bergson: So, we'll see how this will work out when we dig some further in the next lectures

[13:27] CB Axel: Did Locke feels that these rights were only for white men who owned property?

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you said "were" the basics..not anymore then?

[13:27] oola Neruda: is Locke before or after the French Revolution

[13:27] CB Axel: Because that's what the US Constitution was written for.

[13:28] herman Bergson: I don't think Locke approved slavery, CB

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well if Locke stated such a good base plate it sure have been ruined and molested

[13:28] herman Bergson: You noticed the "were" Beertje  :-)))

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i wondered

[13:28] herman Bergson: I agree...I am biased :-)

[13:28] CB Axel: But did he think anyone but white, property-owning men had those rights?

[13:29] herman Bergson: I don't see much left of the real ideas of Locke in American politics and politicians...

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed because that seems to be how it is today

[13:29] herman Bergson: I have no idea CB....

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but as i said the base plate has probably been messed up a bit since then

[13:30] CB Axel: Is that because we have misinterpreted Locke or because those of us left out of the Constitution are now demanding those rights he spoke of?

[13:30] herman Bergson: Maybe when you dig deep into the writings of Locke you'll find an answer

[13:30] oola Neruda: did Locke influence the French Revolution or did it influence him?

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because what u stated about Locke there sounded just all correct

[13:31] CB Axel: Locke came before both the US and French revolutions.

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good ideas and so

[13:31] CB Axel: He influenced both.

[13:31] oola Neruda: thank you

[13:31] herman Bergson: The French revolution was in I was in the air....the year he wrote the Treatises

[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed he influenced the revolutions

[13:32] herman Bergson: Like the Glorious Revolution in 1688

[13:33] herman Bergson: As I said....he put to words what was already in the air

[13:33] herman Bergson: He gave the people a voice...

[13:34] herman Bergson: But the question of what is left of his ideas in present-day politics....

[13:35] herman Bergson: We'll discuss that later

[13:35] CB Axel: I thought Locke's treatises were written in the late 1680s.

[13:36] CB Axel: He died in 1704.

[13:36] herman Bergson: The Two Treatises in Government were written in 1689, CB

[13:36] CB Axel: Which is a shame. The framers of the US Constitution could have used his input. :)

[13:37] herman Bergson: He died in 1704  indeed...poor fellow :-)

[13:38] CB Axel: Poor us. I'd love to talk to him today. :)

[13:38] herman Bergson: Well...72....not bad in those days

[13:38] herman Bergson: He would be inspiring indeed CB

[13:39] herman Bergson: Especially when he sees how a country slides into absolutism, if it doesn't take action

[13:39] CB Axel: I've never been able to give an answer when people ask, "Who from the past or present would you like to have dinner with?"

[13:39] CB Axel: But now I think I'd chose John Locke. :)

[13:39] herman Bergson: Perfect choice, I'd say CB

[13:40] CB Axel: If it ever happens, I'll invite you, too, Herman. :)

[13:40] herman Bergson: or maybe...herman Bergson??? ^_^

[13:40] CB Axel: And Barack and Michelle Obama.

[13:40] herman Bergson: wow...I'll come :-)

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:41] CB Axel: BTW, there is a difference in the US between being financially liberal or conservative and being socially liberal or conservative.

[13:41] herman Bergson: OK...I guess we dealt with our worries and questions of today :-)

[13:41] herman Bergson: Oh dear...

[13:41] CB Axel: I put that out there just to make US politics even more confusing. LOL

[13:42] herman Bergson: You succeeded ^_^

[13:42] CB Axel: :)

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont):

[13:42] herman Bergson: Let me guess....

[13:42] herman Bergson: financially liberal or conservative  deals with the government spendings

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can I see that as the VVD?

[13:43] CB Axel: Yes, and its approach to business and business regulations.

[13:43] CB Axel: VVD?

[13:43] herman Bergson: socially liberal or conservative deals with the well being in society....abortion, heallthcare?

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's a party from the Netherlands CB

[13:44] herman Bergson: So...what does it mean CB...?

[13:44] CB Axel: Right, Herman. And LBGTQ, race, and feminist rights.

[13:44] herman Bergson: ok

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki

[13:45] herman Bergson: hard ball and soft ball issues :-)

[13:45] CB Axel: Those are all hard ball issues to me. :)

[13:45] herman Bergson grins

[13:45] herman Bergson: ok :-)

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): .)

[13:46] CB Axel: I'm about as liberal in the US sense as they come. I have a gay friend who is socially liberal but financially conservative. :)

[13:46] CB Axel: *as they come

[13:47] herman Bergson: Well....that is not so complicated...

[13:47] herman Bergson: With your purse tight in your hand you can be gay or straight....has no effect on your purse :-)

[13:48] CB Axel: Pretty much, yes.

[13:49] herman Bergson: That is why in the Netherlands we have parties which are for instance financially conservative, but on abortions individual members differ in opinion

[13:50] CB Axel: Yeah. We in the US need to listen more to other parties and not just the Dems or the GOP.

[13:50] herman Bergson: A two-party system is from a democratic point of view a misrepresentation of society in my opinion

[13:51] herman Bergson: And as we see it leads to meaningless polarization

[13:51] CB Axel: I agree. But Americans don't have time to think about more than 2. We're too busy keeping up with the Kardashians and cheering for our favorite sports teams. :)

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oh lol

[13:52] herman Bergson: impression is that Americans only think in terms of winners and losers

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:52] herman Bergson: 50 shades of grey are wasted on them :-)

[13:52] CB Axel: I think that's right.

[13:52] druth Vlodovic is offline.

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm sadly seems so yes

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are you for the US or against it..

[13:53] CB Axel: Tim Minchin wrote a song about that kind of polarization.

[13:53] herman Bergson: The UK has the same problems :-)

[13:53] CB Axel: Minchin is Aussie/English, so yeah. He's seen that.

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes that's true

[13:54] herman Bergson: This is not a commercial for the Netherlands :-)))

[13:54] CB Axel: With more than 2 parties it's important for lawmakers to learn to listen to each other and compromise.

[13:54] herman Bergson: Exactly :-)

[13:55] herman Bergson: That's how we do it in the Netherlands....tedious though but it works :-)

[13:55] CB Axel: Then need to learn to work together to find solutions that work for everyone.

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): dot the democrats and liberals listen ot each other CB?

[13:55] herman Bergson: It can be done CB

[13:55] CB Axel: Americans are too impatient for all that.

[13:55] CB Axel: I don't think they do, Beertje.

[13:55] herman Bergson: Yes...they only want to

[13:56] CB Axel: I listen enough to find ways to argue.

[13:56] oola Neruda: lobbyists are a big influence on it all

[13:56] CB Axel: I feel that Democrats are a little better at it than Republicans.

[13:56] oola Neruda: money money money

[13:57] herman Bergson: I think Americans see a compromise as a sign of weakness

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes I think so too

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if ur not on top u are at the trash heap

[13:57] CB Axel: During Obama's first 2 years the dems had the White House and Congress but still didn't get everything done that they would have liked, but that's because he was willing to negotiate and the republicans weren't.

[13:57] oola Neruda: not all... but politicians and big money guys seem to

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's not weakness at all

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like that¨

[13:57] herman Bergson: those I mean oola

[13:57] CB Axel: And yes, that's exactly what people think, Herman.

[13:58] CB Axel: I think that negotiation and compromise are strengths. :)

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed CB

[13:58] herman Bergson: Isn't it funny that I form the Netherlands seem to see that?

[13:58] herman Bergson: of course they are CB

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's because we have another system Herman

[13:59] CB Axel: Sometimes the best view is from a distance, Herman. :)

[13:59] CB Axel: Often, even. :))

[13:59] herman Bergson: Interesting....

[14:00] herman Bergson: we learn a lot from and about each other

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[14:00] herman Bergson: I suggest that we continue next Thursday....

[14:00] herman Bergson: so..

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa

[14:00] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for the interesting discussion...

[14:00] CB Axel: Oh, and when I have dinner with John Locke, Barack and Michelle Obama, and Herman, I'll have Mitch McConnell tied up in a corner with a gag in his mouth.

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[14:01] oola Neruda: yay

[14:01] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[14:01] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki cu all next time

[14:01] herman Bergson: Great plan, CB.....mute the turtle

[14:01] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman and class :-)

Sunday, October 25, 2020

877: Some Clarifications...........

 As a result of our discussion after last Tuesday's lecture it became clear that it would be clarifying to explain a few terms.


I already presented the presuppositions and assumptions of early liberalism, in which the concept of freedom of the individual is a central theme.


Immediately followed the question of what the difference is with NEO-liberalism. To dig up these differences and their origins is in fact one of the goals of this project.


But in anticipation of matters to come I can say a few things about it.


Neoliberalism is sometimes defined as an ideological antagonist of both socialist theories and progressive liberal theories. 


Socialists conceptualize neolib­eralism as a particular historical regime of capitalism, more corrosive and iniquitous 


than the “embedded liberalism” of the post-war era in Europe and the United States. 


Similarly, socially progressive liberals criticize neoliberalism for subordinating public life to market forces and for displacing the welfare state commitments of the Keynesian era, which means governmental involvement with society 


Some on the political left collapse the distinction between liberalism and neoliberalism, seeing them as simply two ways of ideologically justifying capitalist rule. 


Liberalism and neoliberalism are not concepts with an exact definition. That is why we are digging into the history of the concepts to figure out how Homo Sapiens arrived at where he is now in history and politics.


A more complex issue is clarifying what we mean by libertarians versus liberals. In the first place because Europeans are not that familiar with the term libertarian.


Most European countries have a multi-party system. By more I mean "more than two". If I am not mistaken, UK is the only European country that has a two-party system.


Thus for Europeans the unfamiliar term 'libertarian', used in the US, can be confusing. What does it mean?


Libertarian....In the past I thought it meant the Dutch word "libertijn" (libertine), which means among other things "freethinker". But libertarian and libertine are not related at all.


The real meaning I found in a WIKI footnote. It said: "One important pioneer is French anarcho-communist Joseph Déjacque (1821–1864), who [...] appears to have been the first thinker


to adopt the term 'libertarian' for this position; hence 'libertarianism' initially denoted a communist rather than a free-market ideology."


To put it in the US political spectrum....are libertarians even more left than socialists, if you look at this historical background?


It find its origins in anarchism, but now we get lost in a minefield, for you have individual anarchism,


the branch of anarchism that emphasizes the individual and their will over external determinants such as groups, society, traditions and ideological systems.


But you also have social anarchism,  that sees individual freedom as interrelated with mutual aid  and thence social organization.


If you believe that this explains the American use of the term "libertarian", let me surprise you.......


[WIKI] Libertarianism in the United States is a political philosophy and movement promoting individual liberty . 


According to common meanings of conservatism and liberalism in the United States, libertarianism has been described 


as conservative on economic issues (economic liberalism) and liberal on personal freedom (civil libertarianism) often associated with a foreign policy of non-interventionism. [END]


I'm really off track now. Is an American libertarian someone closely related to the Tea Party or is he an extreme left-wing social Democrat and a friend of Bernie Sanders?


I love to see this question answered by the American members of our class....


Thank you for your attention.....


The Discussion

[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the tea party exagerated

[13:16] herman Bergson: Your answer please ^_^

[13:16] CB Axel: American Libertarians want less government and fewer regulations.

[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the very less government , regulations etc  NONO

[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:16] herman Bergson: I have an A+ ready on my desk here :-))

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:17] herman Bergson: So they are Reps?

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and our idea of liberalism is way far from the original

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is hard for  the libertarians to be elected

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to Congress etc

[13:17] Faust (faust.saenz): The words of supporting socially liberal causes means nothing when the Libertarians are unwilling to raise taxes to pay for solutions.

[13:17] herman Bergson: Hold on......

[13:17] Ludova (quippe.wylder): Back when I met libertarians they thought we didn't need government - that people could fend for themselves.

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct

[13:18] CB Axel: One mistake that you made on Tuesday and are still making today is that there are only 2 parties in the US.

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but they live high on the hog so so speak

[13:18] herman Bergson: Ludo...the anarchist line of thinking.....

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there are a few more parties

[13:18] Ludova (quippe.wylder): Since I can't fend for myself I don't sympathize.

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Green Party

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Libertearain

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): adn a few  minow

[13:19] herman Bergson: No there are more....but not in Congress

[13:19] CB Axel: Independent

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): minor

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so libertanism = anarchism?

[13:19] Faust (faust.saenz): no

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): almost but not quite

[13:19] CB Axel: Whatever party Kanye West belongs to.

[13:19] herman Bergson: Not anymore Bejiita

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:19] Faust (faust.saenz): minimal government, roads

[13:19] Faust (faust.saenz): court system

[13:19] herman Bergson: Looney Tunes, I guess CB

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): army ot protect

[13:19] Faust (faust.saenz): not much else

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just the bare bones more or less

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as little as possible

[13:19] Faust (faust.saenz): a few public goods

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i see

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but not anarchy

[13:20] Ludova (quippe.wylder): No police?

[13:20] herman Bergson: Army?

[13:20] CB Axel: They want to do away with any laws that protect us or our environment so that business can be free to do what they want.

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well the word anarchy to me equals chaos war, mobs and plundering

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks they support police

[13:20] Faust (faust.saenz): They do not mind police domestically

[13:20] herman Bergson: That is what libertarians want, Gemma?

[13:20] Faust (faust.saenz): but oppose larg armies

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:20] CB Axel: I'm not sure they want to do away with police or armies, but they don't want business to have any regulations.

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right'

[13:21] herman Bergson: LET's STOP FOR  A MOMENT.....

[13:21] CB Axel: I'm also not sure what their foreign policies are.

[13:21] herman Bergson: so I can collect my thoughts......

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I am more concerned about the term Liberalism tho

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): American Liberalism is far from the original

[13:22] herman Bergson: In the US there are Republicans...what they stand for is still an open question here

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): based on teh costitution

[13:22] herman Bergson: Then there are these libertarians....

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they are not strong herman

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they are not common

[13:22] CB Axel: There is a lot of overlap between libertarians and Republicans.

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right'

[13:22] herman Bergson: They seem to adhere absolute individual freedom...? True?

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not in teh same terms tho

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and no

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:23] herman Bergson: ok....

[13:23] CB Axel: Absolute business freedom.

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (head spinning)

[13:23] herman Bergson: and they want minimum government...?

[13:23] CB Axel: I don't think they care about individuals at all.

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): republicans are leaning more toward libertarianism than before

[13:23] CB Axel: Yes

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is the basis of liberalism here herman

[13:23] herman Bergson: Ahh Gemma that I understand now.....

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so libertarians are the most neo liberal of the all right?

[13:24] CB Axel: Republicans are going so far to the right that it makes any policy to the left look extreme.

[13:24] oola Neruda: ;'yes...gemma

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct

[13:24] Anuska (anuska.loon) is offline.

[13:24] herman Bergson: Then let me bring forward one observation regarding libertarianism....

[13:24] herman Bergson: They want as CB said absolute freedom for business.....

[13:24] herman Bergson: Now...

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hooray!!!!!!!!

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:25] CB Axel: Bejiita, that's where it gets confusing. Liberals in the US tend to believe in a more socialist agenda.

[13:25] oola Neruda: yes

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:25] herman Bergson: Take a factory that makes big profits etc AND produces a huge amount of pollution.....which even kills nearby living people....

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): dig up  land where ever they want,, leave pollution to get new oil out of the ground

[13:25] CB Axel: We believe in caring for the poor and elderly. We believe that businesses should care for their workers and not just the bosses and shareholders.

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is a liberal here  we do

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I am too liberal

[13:26] herman Bergson: Exactly CB

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:26] herman Bergson: But what does a libertarian do?

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): almost leaning slightly to socialism in some ways

[13:26] CB Axel: We can't use the word socialism, though, because too many Americans equate socialism with communism.

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes I noticed your silly langue problem here ^_^

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): CB ad I are liberal yes but not socialists or communists

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well nazism was a kind of socialism so the term is mostly negative indeed

[13:27] oola Neruda: agree

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh gosh no bej

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nazism a short term for national socialism

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but also that was a screwed mans ideas also

[13:27] CB Axel: I have a t-shirt that says, "Totally un-hinged liberal" on it. By that I mean I want a social safety net and regulations that stop business from exploiting their workers and destroying the environment.

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe but did it mean that really ?

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right cb

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he probably just used that erm to make it sound good

[13:28] herman Bergson: You are liberal but not socialist...but yet you want the community to pay taxes for roads, schools , police

[13:29] CB Axel: Nazis are more like our white supremacists.

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the first thing trump did was put people in charge of departments dealing with regulation about land etc and tell them et rid of regulations

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that protect us

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa i guess so cb

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): those were indeed extreme

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): extreme

[13:29] herman Bergson: Well...I guess one thing becomes clear.......

[13:29] CB Axel: I'm actually pretty socialist, but like I said, socialist is misinterpreted by too many Americans.

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we do want to pay for  infrastructure with taxes

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I dont mind taxes

[13:30] herman Bergson: This projecty is about neoliberalism.....and its origins......

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes socialism is something good fro start right?

[13:30] herman Bergson: in that sense it is Europa centered :-)

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the Republicans do NOT want taxes to benefit the working person

[13:30] CB Axel: I don't mind paying taxes as long as everyone pays and I get my money's worth of the projects I prefer.

[13:30] herman Bergson: I propose to forget the term libertarianism for the time being

[13:30] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): republicans = only for the rich?

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): They keep cutting taxes and then the Democrats have to raise them to fix it all again

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): look at trumps tax cuts

[13:31] theo Velde is online.

[13:31] CB Axel: We don't use the term neo-liberal all that much.

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): most of it was to the benefit of the rich and corporations

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): NOT people like us

[13:32] herman Bergson: No is more a European hobby, I guess

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tho he still claims it was

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to gain his own wealth and his other equally rich "teammates"

[13:32] herman Bergson: But yet...LIberalism finds its origins in European history

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:32] herman Bergson: so we have to find out that alll those emigrants to the New World did with it :-))

[13:33] oola Neruda whispers: remembering the term:

[13:33] oola Neruda: trickle down

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but when the people came here it was to get away from issues over there

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:33] herman Bergson: ah yes oola.....

[13:33] herman Bergson: A complete failure and miscalculation....

[13:33] CB Axel: So, what would I be called in Europe?

[13:33] herman Bergson: A social democrat CB

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): adn took language from the Magna Carta and expanded it

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to our Constitution

[13:34] CB Axel: OK. Good. That's what I've been calling myself here.

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the other ones we call moderates, at least here in sweden

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the richies

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and tax cutters

[13:34] CB Axel: Me, and Bernie, and Elizabeth. :)

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so the meaning of liberalism here became based on thatd

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes CB :-)

[13:35] herman Bergson: Not onn the MAgna Carta Gemma

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes parts of it yes

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the there are many others, one very strong here in sweden is the as I think racist party Sverigedemokraterna. They are like Orban and that maniak ruling Poland now

[13:36] herman Bergson: Maybe in so far it denies the acceptance of absolutism...

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): going in that direction

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and they use the gang violence to state that non swdes are criminals in genral

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): everyone is subject to the same rules regardless of who it is

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): more or less

[13:37] herman Bergson: Liberalism is the discovery of the freedom of the individual as we discussed in the previous lecture

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but it still translates differently here

[13:37] CB Axel: Yes, Gemma. We got that from the Magna Carta. A document Trump has probably never heard of.

[13:37] herman Bergson: and anti absolutism is then a logical consequence of course

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeeed trump is the right opposite of that

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oye

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): racist and sexist

[13:38] CB Axel: And above the law, Bejiita.

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that too

[13:39] herman Bergson: Well...old fashioned absolutism seems to be back then in the US :-)

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and think what he does is SOOOOO GOOD and that everyone else is "fake news"

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Years ago in class liberalism came up here and I tried ot explain it for America but finally just let it go

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when in reality its the other way around

[13:39] herman Bergson smiles

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe ok

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was wondering hwo new liberalism would go

[13:39] herman Bergson: Here is another chance for you Gemma

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): neo

[13:39] Faust (faust.saenz): Would you need to prove that it is a nondeterministic universe to support liberalism?

[13:40] CB Axel: We don't use the term absolutism.

[13:40] CB Axel: I don't know what that means.

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Kings

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): kngs and peasants, the middle ages form of ruling

[13:40] herman Bergson: It means that there is ONE ruler, king or emperor with absolute power...

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): are treated differently when it comes ot law,,, soud familiar cb??

[13:40] CB Axel: Ah. So Trump.

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): We are undergoing it yes

[13:40] herman Bergson: a nondeterministic universe.....?

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thinks he is the emperor yes

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (sighs)

[13:41] herman Bergson: Why should that be proven, Faust?

[13:41] herman Bergson: in relation to liberalism?

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and it is my opinion it is far past republicanism and leaning on fascism

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:42] herman Bergson: absolitism, Gemma? It is plain dictatorship

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:43] CB Axel: That's what Trump would like, Herman.

[13:43] Faust (faust.saenz): if the universe it deterministic then there is no freedom.

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it boggles my mind that his base does not see it

[13:43] herman Bergson: When Biden is locked up like Trump asks for, you have it :-)

[13:43] Laz Dresler is offline.

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I look at his base at rallies and I see Mussolini addressing his adoring crowds

[13:43] Faust (faust.saenz): so why create a liberal political order

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, i mean as soon someone including one from his own party tries to pull the brake trump starts brawling like a 2 year old and fires him

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because he don't get to do as he wants

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): by himself

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): luckily there ar e indeed not just him in the party

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so tis still controlled somewhat

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its

[13:44] oola Neruda: only somewhat

[13:45] herman Bergson: You might say, Faust, that the social order by nature is liberal in itself if you see it from the European individualistic point of view

[13:45] CB Axel: If we don't have free will what's the point of any political party or elections?

[13:45] herman Bergson: We would be automatons CB

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): That is what is happening to the Republican party

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is a shame

[13:46] Max Chatnoir is online.

[13:46] herman Bergson: I find the Reps senators behavior weird....almost immoral

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Very

[13:47] oola Neruda: yes

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): scary development

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some i had great respect for I have lost it all

[13:47] herman Bergson: Everytime I wonder, why don't they see it themselves?

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I dont know

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): amazes me

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are so duped i guess, i dont know4

[13:47] CB Axel: Some are trying to distance themselves from Trump now.

[13:47] herman Bergson: But that is so weird.....

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a few yes

[13:48] oola Neruda: Citizens United is a big aspect of the

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): most retiring this year

[13:48] oola Neruda: this

[13:48] CB Axel: But I say, "Too little, too late, motherfucker."

[13:48] herman Bergson: Take the mega example of immorality....Linsey Graham....

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Right

[13:48] CB Axel: I've never liked him.

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I disagreed with him on things before but respected him

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Not any more!!!!!!

[13:48] herman Bergson: Whatever political view you have....this man is total dishonesty and opportunism

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): amazed by him

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he has joined the group

[13:49] oola Neruda: lobbyists...... Citizens United.... big problem

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): McConnell?? never liked him

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yuck

[13:49] herman Bergson: I don't get can you be like that as a moral human being in that position?

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I cant figure it out Herman

[13:50] CB Axel: I have a dart board in my SL house. I have pictures of Graham, McConnell, and Trump on it.

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): been trying

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because they only care about their egos and fat wallets as usual

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for four years

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): everything else they dont give a darn about

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its status status status

[13:50] herman Bergson: But even when that is the case Bejiita...why be so immoral?

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): becaue they don't care for anyone else

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they don't see it a immoral tho

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they really don't

[13:51] CB Axel: They think they are the moral ones.

[13:51] herman Bergson: their dishonesty and immorality offers no status in my eyes....

[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes I know....Gemma....

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what we in sweden call skrytmånsar(boasters sort of)

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Chri Christi wrote a long apology for not wearing a mask at the white house for that event that became a super spreader

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Neve once mentioned it was all Trumps fault

[13:52] herman Bergson: OK....let's summarize and see how we go on.......

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Are those man afraid of Trump?

[13:52] theo Velde is offline.

[13:52] herman Bergson: One: for the time being we forget the term Libertarianism

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good

[13:53] herman Bergson: Two: We'll forlow the development of Liberalism from the European point of view

[13:53] CB Axel: Christie is one of the ones I'd say too little, too late to.

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa and see what the connection might be from the start and what the difference might themn be

[13:53] herman Bergson: Three: Somewhere during this proces we'll figure out what is meant by AMerican liberalism

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok i have been doing that for years here

[13:54] herman Bergson: There is always a new chance Gemma :-))

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed this IS tricky stuff

[13:54] CB Axel: You need to start understanding that be forgetting the European definition of libera.

[13:54] herman Bergson: Maybe YOU should deliver a lecture on that subject....

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I will look for some writing that will explain it all

[13:54] CB Axel: Start by understanding

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least i think I have a somewhat better view now

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in general

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the European definiton it based on philosophy tho cb

[13:55] CB Axel: There must be some kind of graph or something, Gemma. :)

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is the problem

[13:55] herman Bergson: And finally we'll arrive at Neoliberalism and why it is failing....

[13:55] CB Axel: Nothing in the US is based on philosophy. :)

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well some is

[13:55] CB Axel: We aren't taught philosophy in school.

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): herman quotes some American philosophers

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): depends on where you went to school

[13:56] herman Bergson: I am specilized in Anglo-American philosophy

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Much of Obama's beliefs came out of philosophical beliefs

[13:57] herman Bergson: SO I know Peirce, James, Dewey, Searle, Chomsky and others

[13:57] CB Axel: I was taught the names of Greek philosophers but not much else.

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa Obama I can imagine

[13:57] Faust (faust.saenz): I am engaging in an effort to add positive mental health to public policy in a manner similar to how some states require environmental impact analysis and economic impact analysis.

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he gave a great speech yesterday

[13:57] CB Axel nods

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you would have loved it bej

[13:58] Faust (faust.saenz): And advocating for evidence-based policymaking in general.

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I have seen it Gemma

[13:58] CB Axel: I'll bet he learned most philosophy at university, though.

[13:58] CB Axel: Not in pubic schools.

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe

[13:58] herman Bergson: Well Faust, mental health is dearly needed at the moment, when I see interviews with Trumpists....

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well Obama is one of the presidents I've liked the most

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are you all watching the debate tonight?

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a serous man and not like now a blubbering Jabba the Mupp

[13:59] herman Bergson: I duess, this was quite a heavy discussion.....not easy......

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting tho

[14:00] herman Bergson: Time to prepare for another lecture...

[14:00] CB Axel: I have to work here in SL during the debate.

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (apologises to Jabba the Hut)

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here is teh speech yesterday if you would like to see it

[14:00] herman Bergson: Yes I agree Gemma....

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[14:00] CB Axel: I'll try to watch it tomorrow.

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki

[14:00] herman Bergson: I saw it Gemma :-)

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I saw it too

[14:01] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah nice

[14:01] CB Axel: Can we agree to use the European definition of liberal here from now on?

[14:01] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bej iwl like it

[14:01] herman Bergson: We keep a close eye on what is happening in the US....

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ill check that one

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[14:01] Faust (faust.saenz): I think supporting positive mental health is an issue almost anyone can get behind. Once that is the case, it can become the issue that brings everyone together. once we are all behind one issue, the divisions will will start to be mended.

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i watch CNN

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed CB its easier as basepoint for me for sure and also is the original version i guess

[14:01] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good on that faust

[14:01] herman Bergson: I hope so Faust!

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa

[14:02] herman Bergson: Dearly needed too

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Faust

[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe we can not define ourselves as liberals cb but as progressives

[14:02] Faust (faust.saenz): There is one org that is getting countries together on that point.

[14:02] CB Axel: Good word, Gemma. I have used that one, too. :)

[14:02] Faust (faust.saenz): Not many on board yet:

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki

[14:03] herman Bergson: Well...plenty of homework.......

[14:03] Faust (faust.saenz): not that the economy is not important but lets put wellbeing first.

[14:03] CB Axel: I'll have to take a look at that, Faust. Thanks.

[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bookmarked faust

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed so true

[14:03] herman Bergson: Ahhh....The Butan philosophy

[14:04] herman Bergson: That is also related to the nightmare of neoliberalism.....

[14:05] Faust (faust.saenz): bhutan committed genocide after they adopted that policy

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): economy indeed, problem now is that the economic system today is based on greed. Lets get rid if the greedy part and.. will work much better

[14:05] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[14:05] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[14:05] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok long class

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and for everyone

[14:05] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[14:05] herman Bergson: prime goal is economic growth.......and oh yes.....there also is well being......

[14:05] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[14:05] bergfrau Apfelbaum: again sooo interesting with you all, thank you ->  world class!

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): great again

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[14:05] herman Bergson: but due to economic growth well being will trick down to the people

[14:05] oola Neruda: right on.... Particle Physicist

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): important is everyone should share the cake

[14:05] herman Bergson: Thank you all again.....

[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not just a few

[14:06] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[14:06] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu ext time all

[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[14:06] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[14:06] oola Neruda: whew

[14:06] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[14:06] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[14:06] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oola

[14:06] CB Axel: See you next week. Don't forget the time change!

[14:06] herman Bergson: Mind the time Europeans.....21:00h on Tuesday!

[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa

[14:06] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah ja

[14:06] bergfrau Apfelbaum: oh

[14:06] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh darn again alrealy

[14:06] CB Axel: Still 1 pm slt. :)

[14:07] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): forgot to remind

[14:07] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye

[14:07] herman Bergson: yes 1 PM SL-time!

[14:07] Anuska (anuska.loon) is online.

[14:07] CB Axel: See you all next week, Bye.

[14:07] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) is offline.

[14:07] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu around