Friday, March 26, 2021

911: In Search of a Future......

The dream in the title of this project lasted three decades and then ... it suddenly is over. 


After the falling of the Berlin wall, many people awaited a radiant view. In the first place at a political level, because all countries would welcome our liberal democracy now. The time of the totalitarian regimes was definitely over.


Secondly on an economic level, because market forces would solve all problems. The national state would still remain for a while, but would get a more modest role in the future.


Thirdly in a technological area, because the digital revolution was going to improve our lives. The new opportunities for a free exchange of information, experiences and ideas would lead to unprecedented cultural bloom. 


There were at most a few clouds to see - questions regarding the environment - but we would certainly solve them definitely, given the possibilities of the new era. 


For the rest we saw a sleek blue sky. Meanwhile, we are thirty years later now and so many problems come to us that almost nobody can remember the optimism from when it all began.


Sometimes you hear people say that a big disaster or shock would not be wrong, because otherwise we will never be relieved 


of our addiction to meat, air travel, fossil fuels and other vices. We now have that disaster in the form of a pandemic.


Several vulnerabilities that have been fully revealed by the current pandemic, have already been created in a previous phase. 


Because whether we are talking about the bio-industry, globalization, tourism, urbanization, air traffic, fossil fuels, economic growth, cheap consumption, 


flexible labor, undeserved bonuses or feelings of meaninglessness, all that has been strongly emerged in the West since the 1980s of the last century. 


The associated philosophy was explicitely liberal in the sense that people set priority to individual freedom, that people glorified their own identity, 


that people wanted to resolve social problems primarily through market forces, that they wanted to reduce rules of the Community and that man was defined as homo economicus who always is after his individual interests.


To be released from this prison, we will have to come loose from the philosophy of the homo economicus, the belief that man is primarily driven by self-interest. 


The Corona crisis clearly reveals, that a strong community sense still lives among people. Many people are willing to help others disinterested. 


A second idea where we have to get rid of is, that everything revolves around creating profits as much as possible and even more. 


Furthermore we have to free ourselves from the irrational belief, that we only can survive through permanent economic growth.


The existential legitimacy of a company is not just making as much profit as possible. A company also has a social function, as was shown Philips in its early days in the Netherlands.


The company built affordable homes and schools for its employees, organized a club life and education.


Production should not be aimed at permanent waste and overconsumption, but at maintaining a stable lifestyle. 


No more, more more, faster, faster faster, larger, larger larger should be the driving force, but the pursuit of a balance between nature and Homo sapiens.


With this we are awakened from the neoliberal dream. The future must be different..

Thank you for your attention again...

The Discussion

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:19] herman Bergson: I know the world is more complex than the changes I suggest

[13:19] CB Axel: I wish US corporations would figure that out.

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): has this change to start by the government or by the compagnies?

[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes CB.....

[13:20] herman Bergson: both Beertje

[13:20] CB Axel: They still want more, more, more, etc.

[13:21] herman Bergson: But the first thing that has to change in my opinion is this focus on the shareholders

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they will strugle:)

[13:21] herman Bergson: Just imagine....

[13:21] herman Bergson: What they call profit is all extra money they make us pay for their products

[13:22] CB Axel: Too many people think that investing in a company is supposed to be an automatic win.

[13:22] herman Bergson: Sure...a company should make a profit to guarantee continuity and development...

[13:22] CB Axel: They don't invest with the idea that they may lose money.

[13:22] herman Bergson: Right

[13:23] CB Axel: Except on Broadway. There they almost expect to lose money. :)

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so the investments of the shareholders must be stopped?

[13:23] herman Bergson: Interesting idea

[13:24] herman Bergson: But the companies will say....

[13:24] CB Axel: Businesses need investors to fund their research and further development of their products.

[13:24] herman Bergson: if we want to start a new development or product we need money....

[13:24] herman Bergson: exactly CB

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if a product is good it needs no further development

[13:24] Somedirtycat Saule: A corporation or company is not bad in itself. It has a be a way to make them fit in better

[13:24] herman Bergson: But they also could do what you money for extra expences

[13:25] CB Axel: That's what the East India Company did. They needed capital to build ships and hire crews.

[13:25] CB Axel: Beertje, everything can be made better. :)

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no

[13:26] herman Bergson: To start the company yes.....but after that they might have been able to continue financed by their profits

[13:26] CB Axel: Unless they wanted to improve their product.

[13:26] Somedirtycat Saule: First there is the question o power. Money make them too powerful

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes, Saule...

[13:27] CB Axel: Although, I guess they could look for small improvements over time rather than a big jump all at once.

[13:27] herman Bergson: As I said...the world is more complex than how I described it.....but we have to make a start somewhere

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes CB, I guess it can be done in a different way indeed

[13:28] Somedirtycat Saule: A company is a group of people organized. Of course they will be powerful compared to individuals

[13:28] CB Axel: If car manufacturers had decided to stop innovating we'd still be driving Model T's.

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oh i like those;))

[13:28] CB Axel: :)

[13:28] herman Bergson: Would be fun indeed.....

[13:28] CB Axel: I prefer my Prius.

[13:29] Somedirtycat Saule: Reactive organizing like unions wont help

[13:29] herman Bergson: But why 25 different models, why always a new series of models....

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and cloths..why so many changes every year?

[13:29] Somedirtycat Saule: Non profit companys or similar?

[13:30] herman Bergson: What do you mean Saule?

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and interieur...why throw away good furniture?

[13:30] Somedirtycat Saule: I mean that companies are very powerful

[13:30] herman Bergson: They are....

[13:31] CB Axel: The SCOTUS decision that the owner of a corporation can give huge amounts of money to politicians has pretty much canceled the votes of their employees.

[13:31] herman Bergson: We live in a democracy we assume, but the Koch Brothers pay for it :-)

[13:31] Somedirtycat Saule: A national state can of cource regulate things

[13:31] CB Axel: They can try. :(

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we as consumers can do a lot too...not to buy so much

[13:32] Somedirtycat Saule: But companies block that with corruption of all kinds

[13:32] CB Axel: Very true, Beertje.

[13:32] Somedirtycat Saule: A consumer is the companies best friend

[13:33] Somedirtycat Saule: Their food

[13:33] CB Axel: The dealership where I bought my car has been flooding my inbox with emails saying that a lot of people want my car.

[13:33] herman Bergson: indeed Saul ^_^

[13:33] CB Axel: They say that I should trade it in. I'd get top dollar for it.

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thiefs CB?

[13:33] herman Bergson: What kind of nonsense is that CB?

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): to steel your car?

[13:34] CB Axel: But do you know who else wants my car? I do. It's a good car. It gets me where I want to go using little gasoline.

[13:34] CB Axel: No, Beertje. They want me to trade it in for a new car.

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thats insane

[13:34] CB Axel: They can give me a good price, because my car is in demand.

[13:34] herman Bergson: of course....and steel from your purse again :-)

[13:34] CB Axel: It's completely stupid.

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they want money, not your car

[13:34] herman Bergson: Sounds like it indeed

[13:35] Somedirtycat Saule: So some kind of group organizing whats needed to not ge a consumer but not have to live under a tree innawoods

[13:36] Somedirtycat Saule: Communism kind of failed

[13:36] herman Bergson: We accept the organisation of our society as a kind of natural law phenomenon.....but it isn't....we can change it

[13:36] Somedirtycat Saule: Hippies too

[13:37] herman Bergson: Communism is a complex story, for it is also associated with a totalitarian regime style

[13:37] Somedirtycat Saule: Change the state seems impossible

[13:37] herman Bergson: it is not based on solidarity and sharing

[13:37] herman Bergson: the US it almost succeeded with dictator Trump

[13:38] Somedirtycat Saule: Money is a helluva drug that make people work under bad conditions

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he is just copying other dictators

[13:38] herman Bergson: He did, yes

[13:39] herman Bergson: and fortunately failed

[13:39] Somedirtycat Saule: And working workers mak companies strong

[13:39] herman Bergson: But the companies don't make the workers stronger by better salaries

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and that is not more than normal that the workers get a good pay for there work

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): their

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont):

[13:40] Somedirtycat Saule: So a competing group organization must involve working people and some incitement to work

[13:40] CB Axel: The NY Times just reported that a recently unclassified report shows that Russia and Iran tried to influence the US election to help Trump.

[13:40] herman Bergson: the past 20 years the profits increased and the salaries of the workers stayed the same or were even decreased

[13:41] CB Axel: It's hard to change our government when other governments are getting in the way.

[13:41] Somedirtycat Saule: Democrats are war mongers so why wouldn't them?

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Russia and Iran needed a clown to stay involved in the US

[13:42] herman Bergson: He did what they aimed for.....destructing the country

[13:42] herman Bergson: For that you don't need a war....just a Trump

[13:42] CB Axel: How is the election in the Netherlands going?

[13:43] Somedirtycat Saule: Trump will infest our discussions for long time

[13:43] herman Bergson: Will be finished tomorrow CB

[13:43] herman Bergson: Tomorrow evening we'll know

[13:43] CB Axel: Oh, yes. Wars are too expensive. It's cheaper to just destroy democracy.

[13:43] CB Axel: I hope you have a good outcome. :)

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): with 32 groups the outcome will be good:)

[13:44] herman Bergson: 32 paarties participate in the elections this time

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))

[13:45] CB Axel: Do you use ranked choice voting?

[13:45] herman Bergson: I really needed my reading glasses to find my candidate :-)

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahahha

[13:45] CB Axel: Where you vote for your favorites in order?

[13:45] CB Axel: LOL, Herman.

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes CB

[13:45] CB Axel: I wish we did that.

[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes I found her :-))

[13:46] Somedirtycat Saule: Would be interesting with some easy to understand wars not strange US deep state reptilian stuff

[13:46] herman Bergson: And who was "SHE" Beertje ? :-))

[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: wow! 32 parties!

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i know

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)))

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Lady with the blond hair

[13:47] herman Bergson: Wrong :-))

[13:47] Kate Miranda is offline.

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Ploumen?

[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes :-))

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))))

[13:48] herman Bergson: I voted for the Socialist party....have done it all my life actually

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ow my mistake...i thought she had blond hair

[13:48] herman Bergson: no no....brunette

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that was the other Lady..of D66

[13:48] CB Axel: With 32 parties there must be one candidate for every 100 citizens or so, right. LOL

[13:48] herman Bergson: Right Beertje :-))

[13:49] herman Bergson: Kaag has blond hair....

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my mistake:))

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i know Kaag

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes CB...we really can choose

[13:49] herman Bergson: And there comes Bejiita :-))))

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:49] Somedirtycat Saule: Is there a blog where you publish texts?

[13:50] herman Bergson: Yes Saule....check my profile for the URL

[13:50] bergfrau Apfelbaum:

[13:50] CB Axel: Bejiita must not have logged on since Saturday or he would have noticed the time change. :)

[13:50] Somedirtycat Saule: Thanks

[13:50] herman Bergson: Very nice Bergie :-)

[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: afk! RL

[13:51] CB Axel: I always try to read the blog if I have to miss class.

[13:51] herman Bergson: OK,,,,time to finish our discussion :-)

[13:51] herman Bergson: Thank you all again.....

[13:51] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it need a lot of time to change things, bur we can do that by voting

[13:52] herman Bergson: And maybe we should take a vacation till the clocks are in sync again

[13:52] CB Axel: Are you going to give us a hint as to our next topic?

[13:52] herman Bergson: Oh yes CB.....

[13:53] herman Bergson: Look at the poster at the entrance

[13:53] CB Axel: I will! Thanks.

[13:53] herman Bergson: Here is the poster...behind me

[13:54] herman Bergson: The poster at the entrance gives some more infor on the new project

[13:54] CB Axel: Yes. I remember reading somewhere now that we'd be talking about patterns.

[13:54] CB Axel: That should be interesting.

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes true CB

[13:55] herman Bergson: Yes I already had it on the shelf, but then the neoliberal theme came in between

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: back

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wilkommen

[13:55] CB Axel: wb

[13:56] herman Bergson: Maybe we should enjoy a little Spring vacation....and see the tulips grow

[13:56] CB Axel: No tulips here yet.

[13:56] CB Axel: We had snow yesterday.

[13:57] herman Bergson: Not yet tulips here either worrries :-)

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we have daffodils:)

[13:57] herman Bergson: True...plenty in my garden

[13:57] CB Axel: I love daffodils. :)

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))

[13:57] herman Bergson: and hyacinthss

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wilde hyacints

[13:58] herman Bergson: no....tame ones :-)

[13:58] CB Axel: LOL

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and my Autumnalis is almost blooming

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wild ones are beautiful, very small and the smell so nice

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they give light when it's dark

[13:59] herman Bergson: the Camelia is flowering here abundantly atm

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)))

[13:59] herman Bergson: oh....class dismiised :-)))

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

Tuesday, March 16, 2021

910: The Black Page of the Future.....

 Our society is based on equality. Whether you are rich, poor, male, female, black or white: everyone has a vote. 


But this promise of ideal equality is in ever-stark contrast to the socio-economic inequality that people actually see and feel. 


It undermines the democratic promise and threatens our form of society with moral and ideological bankruptcy. 


The rapid march of right-wing populist movements in Europe and North America is a bad sign in this regard. 


Finally, a vote for a populist is a rejection of the current political-economic system, which no longer has an answer to essential problems that affect or experience people.


The emergence of new populist-nationalist parties around the world has several causes, one of which is the economy. 


Growing inequality and economic insecurity foster an atmosphere in which people lose faith in politics and in their fellow human beings. 


It makes us susceptible to all kinds of enemy images. Compare the election manifestos of the major right-wing populist movements


 in Europe and the United States, and you'll find mostly wild accusations against migrants, the European Union, alleged left-wing elites and Muslims and Jews. 


In short, populists point to scapegoats. But there is hardly anything in their party programs 


that indicates a thoughtful analysis and vision to face the real socio-economic problems that undermine our society. 


The previous party program of the Dutch right-wing populist party, the PVV, consisted of one A4. 


Right-wing populists have also gained a firm foothold in my own country, the Netherlands. 

Mr. Wilders and Mr. Baudet form a power block to be reckoned with, currently good for 25 seats (17% of the votes). 


And just like their foreign examples, they attribute the problems of the Dutch middle class to a monster alliance of migrants, 


European treaties, alleged left-wing elites, scientists, journalists and anyone else who criticizes their thinking. 


As in the United States and the United Kingdom, the populists here are particularly successful in keeping the debate away from their economic agendas.


They would much rather talk about cultural issues, and about who would have wronged us.


This tactic is catching on. The latter percentage of right-wing voters is important. 


Historians and social scientists have long been concerned with the question: How many people are needed for a revolution?


Science magazine published a study by Professor Damon Centola of the University of Pennsylvania in 2018. 


Centola showed that a 25 percent minority group is able to overturn a debate, hijack a discourse, and even take over a system,


but this study refutes the notion that it requires 50% plus one. 


Is that what Trump has hoped for with his attack on the Capitol. Did his staff know about Centola's findings? 


The question is how close our society is to the point where rash populists can do irreparable damage to our democracy.


Perhaps the best example is the past four years in the US under Trump, who was not afraid to openly tinker with the pillars of our democracy, such as a free press and trustworthy elections. 


The corona crisis has made visible more than once why it is so important for right-wing populist presidents such as Trump or Bolsonaro in Brazil 


to destroy the credibility of the pillars under democracy, such as the press and science, one by one. 


They don't have, nor had a valid story to solve the real problems people are struggling with. 


Does this describe the contours of our future and that of our children and grandchildren, or am I too gloomy? We will see that in the last lecture of this project on Tuesday.


Thank you for your attention again.....


The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: And let me add something of how the right wing media operate...

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lie and convince

[13:20] herman Bergson: While all news channels report about the Relief Bill of Biden and what it means for citizens

[13:21] CB Axel: This morning I listened to a podcast I've mentioned here before, The Hidden Brain. The host interviewed Damon Centola.

[13:21] CB Axel: It was fascinating.

[13:21] CB Axel:

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh someone else mentioned him today

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): somewhere

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): okk

[13:21] herman Bergson: is Fox News making a huge fuzz about a toy, Mr. Potato Head, Looney Tunes, children's book author Dr. Suess......just divert the attention from the social-economic and pandemic situation

[13:22] CB Axel: Yes. Herman did. just now! LOL

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i wil check it out

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eee ok

[13:22] CB Axel: Right. I made that point on Facebook today, Herman.

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is true Herman

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i check in to see what they are talking about

[13:22] CB Axel: If you can't listen to the show, try using a VPN to log in from a US server.

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): uggg

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:23] herman Bergson: This situation a just clear proof of how the right wing operates...

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:23] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.

[13:23] herman Bergson: Where is the Rep alternative for the dem's Relief Bill....where is the debate

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wil attack the biden program till it is proven to have succeeded

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they just want to turn us into hateful xenophobes, that is their goal

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like Hitler did

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): more or less

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh well .. half of what they voted for last December

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they as u said have no real party program

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nothing about solving the real problem

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just spreading hate

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but of course object to money going to failed democratic cities

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or states

[13:25] CB Axel: There's one Republican senator who got one provision added to the covid relief bill and is now bragging about how great the bill is.

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ys

[13:25] CB Axel: He voted against it!

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:25] herman Bergson: idiots :-)

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eeeh ok

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sounds weird for sure

[13:25] herman Bergson: The party program of the Reps seems to consist of only one sentence.....

[13:26] herman Bergson: Vote against everything the Democrats propose

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Arbeit mach frei?

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i they were taken piece by piece lots would have been left out

[13:26] CB Axel: They did that when Obama was president.

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:26] CB Axel: I guess it's nice to know that it wasn't just because Obama is Black. :)

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so all they have as goal is to take down democrats, and then?

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:27] herman Bergson: Maybe CB :-)

[13:27] CB Axel: It wasn't racist. It was just evil. :)

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and get the house and senate back

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in 22

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its no good politics for sure

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that they drive

[13:27] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dangerous politics

[13:27] CB Axel: It's great politics, Bejiita. It just isn't statesmanship.

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): those righters

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am happy to see tht the head of the fed reserve is for it

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): economically

[13:28] CB Axel nods

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but isnt politics about just that managing the state and society?

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and other groups

[13:28] herman Bergson: But if they happen to get the house and senate back.....what then???

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i guess they just want power

[13:28] herman Bergson: They have no program....

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all will change

[13:28] CB Axel: It should be, Bejiita.

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as usual

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nothing will pass

[13:28] herman Bergson: What they had was international disaster

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we clearly saw that with trump he only wanted to ggain himself and used the entire us population for it

[13:29] CB Axel: They will pass bills enabling the rich to get richer and the poor to die.

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lots have moved their party to independent

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true cb

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): since Jan 5

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): awful

[13:29] CB Axel: They will pass bills restricting voting (they're already doing that in Republican states).

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): 6

[13:29] herman Bergson: That would lead to a huge reduction of the American population

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ope the borders!!!!

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we lost 550000+

[13:30] herman Bergson: to begin with.....

[13:30] herman Bergson: more than 220 voting suppression bills in 43 states already!

[13:30] CB Axel: Plagues are supposed to wipe out large swaths of the population.

[13:30] CB Axel: Especially the poor.

[13:31] herman Bergson: Well...that's ok...those are the losers anyway....we want only winners

[13:31] herman Bergson: So much for American exceptionalism.....

[13:32] CB Axel: The black plague, as I have heard, killed off so many of the working poor that those who survived had better lives afterward.

[13:32] herman Bergson: It has come to an end....

[13:32] CB Axel: The rich discovered that those working poor were needed to grow their crops, build their homes, make their clothes, etc.

[13:32] herman Bergson: I guess some politicians see that as a positive thing, CB

[13:33] Anuska (anuska.loon) is offline.

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh

[13:33] herman Bergson: But this is also the big difference with Europe

[13:34] CB Axel: Maybe those who survive Covid will find themselves respected more.

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I am still concerned about the presence of those populists all over the world

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wil it turn?

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I hope so

[13:34] CB Axel: Maybe we can gather all the populists together and give them their own country.

[13:34] herman Bergson: if there will be a turn, it will come from Europe

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): out in space

[13:34] CB Axel: We can call it White-istan.

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha yes

[13:35] herman Bergson: Not a bad idea CB

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they would eat each other

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no  taxes

[13:35] CB Axel: That's why I keep hoping Texas secedes.

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ll

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it wont

[13:36] herman Bergson: That would be something CB

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe Mexico wil take it back

[13:36] CB Axel: I doubt they want it.

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I love parts of Texas tho

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): except the people Gemma?

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some

[13:36] herman Bergson: The dessert parts I suppose :-)

[13:36] CB Axel: I have a few friends in Texas. I'd miss them.

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some  aare not republicans

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i loe down along the border

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): love it

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and san antonio

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the shore line of the gulf

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all wonderful

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have ridden on the border itself

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in a boat

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:38] CB Axel: Don't get too attached to the gulf coast. It'll be underwater permanently soon.

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sas places where the people walk across and leave wet clothes

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): saw that

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): deep in the national parks

[13:39] herman Bergson: Well.......

[13:39] CB Axel: We need a plague that only kills rich people. :)

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh

[13:39] herman Bergson: NExt Tuesday I hope to come up with a more positive outlook....

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*Yayyyyyyy!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*

[13:39] CB Axel: :)

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wil try very hard to make it

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok im off to my lab

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MUAHAHAH

[13:40] herman Bergson: And I want to start a totally different new project...away from these politics....

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): this morning i taught someone how to play golf .. an sl kid

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): landed at the course by mistake

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he asked me how to play

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yey!! Gemma@ Golf

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least Evert was not there blowing around?

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was fun to review all the steps

[13:41] CB Axel: Good luck, Herman. I'll make a bet with you that whatever subject you start with we'll manage to turn it into politics. LOL

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Evert is here now, shaking the trees outside and dumping a ton of snow

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): shhhh cb dont warn him

[13:41] herman Bergson laughs

[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum: what will the new project be??

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:41] herman Bergson: We'll see CB :-)

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lool

[13:42] Guestboook van tipjar stand: CB Axel donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[13:42] herman Bergson: I have to think it over this weekend, Bergie....

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): remember to check the sl time if you are going to the opera

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we jump

[13:42] herman Bergson: I have a plan, but I have to do some research

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): 1 hour ahead

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and so does sl

[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ok:-)

[13:42] CB Axel: You have an election in the Netherlands on Saturday, don't you?

[13:43] herman Bergson: Is there a time change Gemma?

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if you miss there will be other performances

[13:43] CB Axel: I'll be interested in hearing how that turns out.

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes!!!!!!!

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Sunday am

[13:43] herman Bergson: After this weekend, CB

[13:43] herman Bergson: Ah...US two weeks earlier than us here in Europe?

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right a mess!!!!!!!!!

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): chaos in sl

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep!

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): 2 weeks

[13:44] herman Bergson: Well....we have survived it all these years....:-)

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we have so

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess well make it now also

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i recall times

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:44] herman Bergson: True, Gemma :-))

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see you Sunday maybe

[13:45] herman Bergson: Ok...Class dismissed....

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!!

Wednesday, March 10, 2021

909: Neoliberalism exposed again....

 What society do we want to live in? There is happening a lot in the world, things that threaten our way of life.


Our theme is the rough awakening from the neoliberal dream. That is not some personal idea of me. It is really happening. 


In the previous lecture I already pointed out some alternative options, but what is most exciting is, that neoliberalism and its beliefs are questioned at all levels. socially and politically.


The climate crisis and COVID-crisis have exposed its weak spots, its social inadequacy. Yet a majority of the traditional political parties support it.


Yet this social inadequacy is exposed frequently now. This time it was in my morning paper. You have to hear this. It is such a perfect example of the failing current situation.


The players: the Trade Union FNV, the meals delivery service Deliveroo, the government employment office UWV.


The background of the story is that Deliveroo exploits its employees by withholding them a decent legal position as worker. For that the FNV sued Deliveroo.


The author is professor Klara Boonstra, a Law Professor at the VU University Amsterdam. She tells us the following:


-QUOTE-When the FNV was found in the lower court in the Deliveroo case, it addressed several enforcement requests to the government. 


These were set aside on appeal. The labor inspectorate did not want to check the working conditions, 


the UWV did not want to establish an employment relationship and collect social security contributions and the tax authorities did not want to levy taxes. 


In other words, the government chose to keep the Deliveroo-platform's earnings model intact. Not a value-free choice! 


In this area too, the nineties principles of new regulatory governance and New Public Management have rendered workers and their unions powerless. 


The government did not act as an ally of the working party as the weaker party but of the economically powerful employer. 


This attitude of the government harms the whole of society. Our labor market is now structurally unfair on many points. 


This is a social problem that causes a lot of poverty and puts pressure on tax revenues and contributions to social funds. 


Good employers are disadvantaged by unfair competition. Social risks are passed on to the community. -END QUOTE-


The social injustice is exposed here, but yet there is happening something strange.. Next week there are elections for parliament in the Netherland.


If you look at the polls you would think, that voters will prefer those parties which focus on the social aspects: healthcare, education, the legal position of workers, minimum wage, the CO2-problem.


Some will say, typical left-wing themes and that is true, but the polls show an increase in popularity of right-wing parties.


I read an interesting explanation of this phenomenon. In general, a majority is for more money for healthcare, education, minimum wage, etc.


But yet they appear to vote for right-wing parties. How can that be? You see the same happen in the US as well as in Europe.


People don't focus primarily on social-economical issues these days. They focus on nationalist and cultural issues, their identity.


And by scaring the public with slogans like...Islamization is impending.....immigrants steal our jobs....the whole country stuffed with mosques.... a cultural take-over by immigrants...


the right-wing parties play on the fears of the public and lure it to their side, and with success. So there is still a lot of work to do.......


Thank you for your attention again....



MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Gabriel van den Brink:"Ruw Ontwaken uit een Neoliberale Droom",, 2020




The Discussion


[13:13] herman Bergson: The floor is yours (not to take:-)

[13:14] herman Bergson: You fell asleep?

[13:14] herman Bergson: Or still reading? *_*

[13:14] PrincePansophic: This is what is sometimes referred to as 'identity politics,' yes?

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they do it the Hitler way when he told people that jews were child eating monsters and such to make everyone hate and murder them together with Hitler

[13:15] herman Bergson: Yes

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the right wings do more or less the same

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)

[13:15] herman Bergson: The remarkable thing is that those rightwing parties don't address economical subjects, but cultural ones

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:16] herman Bergson: and that appeals to the public

[13:16] PrincePansophic: vilifying 'the other'

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): us and them

[13:16] herman Bergson: yes....create an enemy...

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and "them" are evil

[13:16] CB Axel: It appeals to the part of the public that doesn't want to have to think.

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): going back to ww2 age

[13:16] PrincePansophic: based on cultural differences

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): NOT the right way!

[13:16] PrincePansophic: well said CB

[13:17] CB Axel: They just want to be told who the enemy is and vote against them.

[13:17] herman Bergson: Just look at what Reps in the US content at all but pointing at the enemy...the Dems....

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:17] PrincePansophic: it makes it easier to say 'They did it, Get 'em!"

[13:17] herman Bergson: It happens here in Europe too

[13:18] CB Axel: We need to point out to voters the policies they are for and who in office has voted against those policies.

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there was a maniac (probably a taliban dude) trying to murder 7 people recently

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but because of that we cant turn agains everyone from these places like they are all evil

[13:18] CB Axel: Then we need to convince them not to vote for those pieces of shit again.

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but that is what is happening

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we are "pulling everyone over the same comb"

[13:19] CB Axel: I guess I'm just as bad, Bejiita. I consider all Republicans in the US as evil now. :)

[13:19] herman Bergson: ZERO Republican senators voted for the Relief Billl, tho 75% of the people support it, of which 59% of republicans

[13:20] CB Axel: Yep

[13:20] PrincePansophic: Welcome back.

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wb

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:21] herman Bergson: Like John Locke already said...the government is there to protect the citizens....

[13:21] herman Bergson: in the present situation it is the other way around

[13:21] CB Axel: True.

[13:21] Oneeka Telling (music.nexen): ty

[13:21] herman Bergson: The citizens are a problem for the government...they only cost money

[13:21] CB Axel nods

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for them

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and their fat wallets

[13:22] CB Axel: That's why they try to keep us from voting.

[13:22] herman Bergson: More than 200 voting repression bills in 43 is really absurd

[13:22] herman Bergson: since November

[13:23] herman Bergson: I have no solution for this situation, but we may  say that something isn't right here

[13:24] herman Bergson: In what society do we want to live?

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the easiest

[13:24] herman Bergson: What means 'easiest' Beertje?

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the gemakkelijkste weg om nergens aan te denken

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): aan te hoeven denken

[13:25] herman Bergson: A world in which you haven't to worry or think about anything.....

[13:25] herman Bergson: hmmmm

[13:26] CB Axel: Yes. Thinking is the problem. :)

[13:26] PrincePansophic: lol

[13:26] herman Bergson: I don't think man is like that....

[13:26] herman Bergson: Oops..there I was thinking....:-)

[13:26] PrincePansophic: Are we answering the question "Am I my brother's keeper?"

[13:27] herman Bergson: Interesting question Prince.....

[13:27] CB Axel: Yes we are. But too many people answer that with a no.

[13:27] Krias  (krias): May i ask who read Constitution of its country at least one time a year at home and in family ?

[13:27] herman Bergson: As a social being we live together, not as isolated individuals who only care for themselves, I would say

[13:28] PrincePansophic: Once a year no, but thank you. That is a good tradition to begin.

[13:28] CB Axel: I read parts of the US Constitution when they come up in the news.

[13:28] CB Axel: I read it more than I read the Bible. :)

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Tomorrow Prince?

[13:29] PrincePansophic: I concur Herman

[13:29] herman Bergson: I never read the constitution of my country...except Rule 1

[13:29] PrincePansophic: for Beertje, I just might.

[13:29] herman Bergson: Which is about freedom of speech, gathering, religion

[13:29] PrincePansophic: same here in this nation

[13:30] herman Bergson: But it is an interesting suggestion to read the whole thing some day :-))

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we have time enough since we can't go anywhere

[13:31] herman Bergson: yes

[13:31] PrincePansophic: I would love to compare

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Beertje

[13:31] PrincePansophic: brb

[13:34] Krias  (krias): Constitution is the fundamentals of any country, the principles of how we live or behave together i believe.

[13:34] PrincePansophic: Our National Social Contract?

[13:34] herman Bergson: The point of today is that the government isn't there  to support the weak and powerless in society but to support the rich and powerful within the neoliberal is all about put it in a simple way

[13:34] Oneeka Telling (music.nexen): mhmm

[13:35] herman Bergson: The government has lost its contact with the citizen

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:35] herman Bergson: Especially due to the New Public Management philosophy.....the state is a company and the citizen is a customer that only costs

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or that they can suck out from

[13:36] CB Axel: Do you feel that way in Sweden, Bejiita? That the government has lost contact with the citizens?

[13:36] herman Bergson: In the Netherlands it has....

[13:36] CB Axel: Or you, Bergie, in Austria?

[13:37] herman Bergson: We are regarded as potential frauds by our IRS and Social Services

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well both yes and no but indeed its always been a bit of a mix there but for sure many think of our government like a bunch of blubbering lying pie throwing idiots

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes true :(

[13:37] herman Bergson: Especially when you have a non-Dutch family name

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that are just talking shit about each other insrterad of getting anything done, esp on the election days, then the cyanide spiced pies fly through the air

[13:38] CB Axel: That's so sad. Is the whole world being governed by self-serving morons?

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we live in a rich country, but many have to go to the foodbanks

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): while i watch on the tv and just "sigh!"

[13:38] CB Axel: I realize that the US, Austria, Sweden, and the Netherlands is a small sample, but it's still sad.

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its al about staying in power

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): by clanking down on your opponents

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like it was a childs sandbox

[13:39] herman Bergson: Due to the focus on economic growth and the homo economicus government has lost contact with its citizens.....

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the Trump method

[13:40] herman Bergson: One scandal after another here caused by public servants of our IRS....

[13:41] herman Bergson: and it is about more than 10.000 people....

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes i have read that

[13:41] herman Bergson: Ruined families, divorces, thrown into it....

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ooowww:(

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lost homes, poverty

[13:41] herman Bergson: yes

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): horrible

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): why?

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a sad story indeed

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): real poverty, weekly only 40 euro or so

[13:42] herman Bergson: Because the government is a company Bejiita

[13:42] herman Bergson: and it has to achieve its targets....find 25 million of fraud  money among your citizens.....

[13:43] herman Bergson: that was the target...

[13:43] Krias  (krias): i think all disasters is the fault of government ! people we vote for is it ? and they are far from our concerns

[13:43] herman Bergson: The Tax Fraud team had to finance itself ....

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): crazy

[13:44] herman Bergson: Just take the fact that ZERO Reps voted for the relief Bill....!

[13:44] herman Bergson: who are they serving??? Their constituents, their country....who?

[[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are not serving, they are ruining lives for all around them, the people

[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: pfff mega crash

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wilkommen Bergie

[13:46] herman Bergson: It is obvious Bejiita....

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (unruines Bergie)

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there u go

[13:47] herman Bergson: Maybe next lecture we can talk about the possibilities of creating a better world :-)

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i hope so

[13:47] herman Bergson: And believe me....this debate is already on....

[13:48] herman Bergson: neoliberalism was never questioned it is from many sides

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:48] Krias  (krias): i guess better not talk about new wold , this is what happens since 30 years

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and nothing happens still

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes Krias

[13:48] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i am not sure whether my text has still arrived......CB, there are too many poor people in Austria. but it wouldn't be necessary if the government saw it. I think it's the same everywhere. government money is used for nicer government chairs ....

[13:48] herman Bergson: But change is in the air...

[13:49] CB Axel: I hope so, Herman.

[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: and who stole the chairs here??

[13:49] CB Axel: That's so sad, Bergie.

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the government

[13:49] Krias  (krias): better talk about now, the year of changes where billions appears to save and restructure entire companies for what ?

[13:50] herman Bergson: Economic growth, Krias.....the neoliberal mantra

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and that mantra goes MORE MORE MORE!

[13:51] Krias  (krias): why are we willing to save companies ? loss of employment ? loss of creating growth ? since 30 years world growth is .. decreasing up to come t .. positive interest rate

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:52] Krias  (krias): what are we fighting ? pandemia effects than make us wondering of societies model ?

[13:52] herman Bergson: As this project is called.....A rough awakening from the neoliberal dream......

[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes...this pandemia shows the weak spots

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:54] Krias  (krias): noeliberalism is a consequence in certain regions, some countries dont have problem of neoliberalism !

[13:54] herman Bergson: That is a complex matter Krias.....

[13:55] herman Bergson: Too complex to discuss here, I think

[13:56] herman Bergson: Here we also touch on the issue of globalization

[13:56] CB Axel: Countries that embrace neoliberalism should look at the countries where it's not working for the people.

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but then they will just "NOT OUR PROBLEM!"

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and go on as usual

[13:57] herman Bergson: Well CB, the problem is that even former communist countries adopt neoliberal economics

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): egoism

[13:58] herman Bergson: Since the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 the West believed neoliberalism had won...

[13:58] herman Bergson: and look at China.....

[13:58] herman Bergson: it used state controlled neoliberal economics...

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:59] herman Bergson: Main goal....economic growth and increase of profits

[13:59] herman Bergson: globalizing their economic influence

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and now the rest of the world believe that all their products are spy equipment for their government to take over the entire world

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Huawei ect

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true or not?

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): their government is rotten for sure

[14:00] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita...if you would ask me....I really put some question marks there indeed :-))

[14:01] Krias  (krias): since 30 years, world growth decrease ! negative interest is the effect

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well im a bit guilty buing a Xiaomi mobile and Creality 3D printer before, but I still find their products to be of good quality but does that mean i m helping china conquer the world now

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): pushing that aside cause i just wanted some new stuff

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ?

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i dont know

[14:02] herman Bergson smiles

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i just know that those brands are popular and with good reviews

[14:02] herman Bergson: So it was you Bejiita ^_^

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems to all be serious companies

[14:02] Krias  (krias): no growth ? its the government fault , suddenly billions appears to protect and save ! not to lauch again the activities

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[14:03] herman Bergson: As you see...we run in increasingly more difficult issues here.....

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm i guess

[14:03] herman Bergson: Time to cool down our brains....

[14:04] herman Bergson: So, I thank you all again for your participation....

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or MRI scan them for fault diagnostics from overheating/thinking

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[14:04] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): naaa thats no danger

[14:04] CB Axel: Thank you Herman and class.

[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman