Friday, May 31, 2019

787: What about Art...?

"The more horrifying this world becomes, the more art becomes abstract...", words derived from a diary entry from 1915 by Paul Klee, a Swiss-born artist (1879 - 1940).
This is what exactly happened with art in the period 1940 - 1965. Two atom bombs on Japan. November first, 1952 the first US hydrogen bomb.
It was a thousand times more devastating than the bomb on Hiroshima. Nine month later Russia exploded its own H-bomb.
In the Cold War period total annihilation of mankind had become one of the threats.
It was in this world Abstract Expressionism emerged. It is an artistic movement of the mid-20th century 
comprising diverse styles and techniques and emphasizing especially an artist’s liberty to convey attitudes and emotions through nontraditional and usually nonrepresentational means.
The basic assumption of the abstract expressionist is that art elicits and provokes emotion in the viewer. The idea leaned heavily on psycho-analytical theories.
Artists like Pollock believed that it was the viewer  and not the artist  who defines and interpret the meaning of the abstract expressionist artwork 
thus, there is no relevance on what artist thinks or conveys while producing the work. The viewer ('s subconscious mind) had to create his own interpretations.
The other art movement, strongly influenced by psycho-analysis was the figurative surrealism.
To put it simple, it was assumed that the (abstract) artwork would appeal to all kinds of (subconscious) emotions in the viewer and make him aware of them.
The abstract expressionists were frequently critisized because of the lack of explicite meaning or social commitment in their work.

The response was among others Andy Warhol (1928 - 1987), an American artist, director and producer who was a leading figure in the visual art movement known as pop art.
The most important characteristic of pop art is burning incense for instead of criticizing the mass culture and lifestyle of the middle class. 
All pop art artists used images taken from mass culture, comics, and television.

Our quintessential question is, looking at all these developments in the 20th century, what is the role of art in our world today.
I was a professor at an Academy of Fine Art myself for 20 years, teaching computer classes on everything, from DTP to video editing and multimedia programming.
Answering the question about the role of art was for 97% easy, for it was about educating graphic designers, photographers, interior designers, fashion designers, product designers.
There was just that one group of students who were enrolled in "Autonomous Art", who saw themselves as the real artist. They just made things.
In the early 1960s conceptual art was all the rage. Conceptual art usually came attached with a theoretical baggage to help explain its meaning. 
If the consumer did not get the full picture, they could be ‘coached’ by the artist’s manifesto or the critic’s interpretation, which made me wonder so often.
One thing early modernist artists (1920’s) did to safeguard from over zealous interpreters was to eliminate content altogether by formal abstraction, where the form became the content. 
The later modernists (1960’s) completed the project by making the content so blatant and innocuous (Pop Art) that there wasn’t anything there to interpret.
I often have wondered, what the meaning and function was of what the autonomous students created....
Maybe selling it to a museum and  getting it on the wall there?
Thank you for your attention.....

The Discussion

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting
[13:27] herman Bergson: How do we see art today?
[13:27] Ĉarma (carma.caerndow): thank you it was very enlighting
[13:27] Ĉarma (carma.caerndow): we dont see art today
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i like this kind of art its sort of mystical
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like surrealism a bit
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very abstract and special
[13:28] herman Bergson: Next lecture will be dedicated to Susan Sontag....
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....they included a lot of psych ideas in surrealist painting....take Dali for instance
[13:29] CB Axel: I tend to like abstract art. I guess I don't like to be told what I'm seeing. :)
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is nice to decide I don't like a piece of art
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and love another
[13:29] herman Bergson: I guess you might like Susan Sontag's ideas then :-)
[13:30] CB Axel: I like impressionists, too.
[13:30] Ĉarma (carma.caerndow): abstract
[13:30] herman Bergson: Me too CB :-)
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some yes
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Id say the most ultimate form of art in general is what i do, computer game creation. Here you combine ALL forms of art into 1. Authoring, visual art, film, animation, sound/music and programming
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some not so much
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to make interactive stories
[13:30] herman Bergson: Renoir, Manet, Monet....
[13:30] Ĉarma (carma.caerndow): love is an abstract
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the ultimate art form of today
[13:31] Ĉarma (carma.caerndow): it is full of color and confusion and beauty
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the definition of art?
[13:31] Ĉarma (carma.caerndow): love
[13:31] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita....the multimedia aspect is indeed interesting
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): id say creativity for our senses
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hopes you got to the Florence Griswold museum when you were in Connecticut herman
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): one of the first bases of impressionism in the USA
[13:32] CB Axel: Opera is multimedia. All theater is, I guess.
[13:32] herman Bergson: I missed it Gemma :-(
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh too bad
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the story is amazing
[13:32] herman Bergson: I was tied to the University
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): when do you call a painting
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well they have a good museum there
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and a wonderful puppet museum too
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the concept of games as art is somewhat controversial but likewise it at least to me is 100% true because indeed ALL forms of are often combined here into 1 work
[13:33] herman Bergson: the moment you say 'this is art' Beertje :-)
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i see this when i create my things in Unity/Unreal
[13:33] Ĉarma (carma.caerndow): a panting becomes art when  it moves your soul
[13:33] Oceane (oceane.madrigal) is offline.
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its art, sound, story writing, programming, animation
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all of these i have to learn
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and its damn interesting
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you learn them all
[13:35] herman Bergson: But we still love some romantic idea Bejiita....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i also try follow a certain category of ideas
[13:35] herman Bergson: All you refer to is what is called APPLIED art....
[13:35] Ĉarma (carma.caerndow): yes panting is from a heart
[13:35] CB Axel: Carma, then I guess Warhol's soup cans aren't art. They don't move my soul. They just make me hungry.
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): both steampunk and surrealism i have tried as the main theme
[13:35] Ĉarma (carma.caerndow): they pass a feeling on to you
[13:35] herman Bergson: applied to game creation....
[13:35] Ĉarma (carma.caerndow): that is art
[13:35] Ĉarma (carma.caerndow): the art ofd making you fell it
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:35] herman Bergson: Carma is talking about this autonomous art....Art for art
[13:36] CB Axel: If you consider hunger a feeling, then I take back what I said about Warhol.
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa i have heard of that i think
[13:36] Ĉarma (carma.caerndow): everything you create is you...and the love you want to shair or the pain or anything inside you
[13:36] herman Bergson: For some reason we seem to appreciate that more as art
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the thing with art is that it is a such broad concept
[13:37] herman Bergson: it is a feeling CB....a response
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some animals actually make art
[13:37] Ĉarma (carma.caerndow): did not God create us ...we are the most perfect art
[13:37] CB Axel: Then I guess a pizza is a work of art. It gives me many feelings.
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but they have 1 thing in common they affect some or all of our senses, Images/paintings stimulate our eyes, music our ears and films (mostly) both of them
[13:37] Ĉarma (carma.caerndow): we are different to everyone
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yum
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): them
[13:38] Ĉarma (carma.caerndow): there interpretation of ourselves
[13:38] herman Bergson: lol CB :-)
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes that too
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's called stomach art CB:)
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): very special:)
[13:38] theo Velde is offline.
[13:38] herman Bergson: It makes you now a piece of art CB for your words create a longing for a piece of pizza in me :-))
[13:39] CB Axel: LOL
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahahah
[13:39] CB Axel: I'm a piece of something alright.
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): guess what i had for lunch today
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and i have leftovers
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well surely i guess creating the ultimate in taste is also art
[13:39] herman Bergson: Mail them to me Gemma....
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to me it goes as that
[13:39] CB Axel: Pizza lies flat for easy shipping.
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no way
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): id say art = using your creativity to stimulate others senses
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or your own
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): including i guess taste as well
[13:40] herman Bergson: I guess we should continue our discussion after next lecture on Susan Sontag......
[13:40] Ĉarma (carma.caerndow): thank u for having me but now i want pizza
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:40] Ĉarma (carma.caerndow): love ya bye
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe me too
[13:41] herman Bergson: She really has an interesting opinion
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and that red ale i have left in the fridge
[13:41] CB Axel: I'm getting cookies from Schmackary's tomorrow.
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what did you think of the euro elections herman?
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but id stuffed mysef with bbq before today at a friends place
[13:41] herman Bergson: That's something special CB?
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was also tasty
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but weather was windy and rain but had a nice time anyway
[13:42] CB Axel: It is for me. Their only shop is in NY city
[13:42] herman Bergson: The EURO Elections....
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:42] herman Bergson: I'd say they went quite well....
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): better than expected
[13:42] herman Bergson: first of all more voters than ever before showed up...
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good on that
[13:43] CB Axel: Excellent! What inspired them to show up?
[13:43] herman Bergson: second......the extreme right didn't win that much at all
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right!!
[13:43] herman Bergson: and leftwing and green parties won more than expected
[13:43] herman Bergson: parties
[13:43] CB Axel: That is good news.
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i need to read on the green parties
[13:44] herman Bergson: wasn't shocking or worrisome
[13:44] CB Axel: I just saw a headline today about how the whole world seems to be moving to the right.
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:44] CB Axel: It's good to hear that might not be the case.
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): been watching that too
[13:44] herman Bergson: With the Euro elections it was not the case....
[13:45] herman Bergson: And this global move to the right.....I think it is driven by fear
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): of color and difference
[13:45] herman Bergson: right wing politicians always come with definite answers and solutions
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and closed minds
[13:46] herman Bergson: people love the dominant and all knowing father figure
[13:46] CB Axel: I listened to an interesting podcast the other day about how liberal and conservative brains work differently.
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes
[13:46] CB Axel: They respond differently to the same stimuli.
[13:46] herman Bergson: is a classic
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not only work but LOOK different
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): physically
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there are differences
[13:47] herman Bergson: yes I know about that research :-)
[13:47] CB Axel:
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i brought it up seveal years ago with links
[13:48] CB Axel: I don't know if you can listen in all countries, but look for the audio called More Divided Than Ever?
[13:48] herman Bergson: I have a memory that we even discussed this here in class years ago
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct
[13:48] CB Axel: Yes. That was probably the same study.
[13:48] herman Bergson: yes...think so :-)
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i can't open that site CB
[13:48] herman Bergson: Was in the project The mystery  of the Brain
[13:49] CB Axel: Ah. Too bad. It must just be available in the US. If you ever use a VPN, try signing into a US site.
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i got in after accepting the usual GDPR
[13:50] herman Bergson: I can Beertje
[13:50] herman Bergson:
[13:50] herman Bergson: try that one Beertje
[13:51] herman Bergson: We're a bit off a good moment to dismiss class :-)
[13:51] herman Bergson: Thank you all again :-)
[13:51] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu next time
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i like him
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have to fun too
[13:52] CB Axel: Bye until next week. :)

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye

Wednesday, May 29, 2019

786: Mind is matter.........

Because we are right in the middle of it, we hardly realize that our explanation of who and what we are, has changed more in the past hundred years than in all centuries before.
The 20th century is in that sense an essential moment in our history. Freud created a new interpretation, which was questioned in the 1950s and thereafter.
There was another thing that undermined the traditional concept of the mind in the 1950s: the development of drugs that affected brain functioning. 
ln the course of the century, more and more 'mental illnesses' appeared to have a physical cause. 
All of these could be explained biochemically or physiologically and, more importantly, combated with medication. 
Until about 1950 there was no known physical origin for major mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia and manic-depressive psychoses.    

But in the early 1950s, even these diseases began to come within the reach of science.
There was the research into nerve cells and the substances that play a role in the transmission of nerve impulses from one nerve cell to another, to the isolation of specific substances. 
The manipulation of these substances could perhaps form a treatment method because the transfer between nerve cells could be accelerated or blocked.
Sedatives and antidepressants have been developed based on substances that ensure communication between brain cells.
All these substances reinforced the idea that the 'mind' could be influenced by substances. 
Numerous sedatives and antidepressants were developed in the 1950s and 1960s. 
Not all substances worked in all patients and they all had side effects. On of the most dangerous is addiction to the medicine, of course.
But whatever shortcomings they have helped and despite the difficulties and issues that remain, 
these two types of medicine still relieve an enormous amount of suffering and give inspiration for thoughts about human nature. 
They show that psychological moods are the result of a chemical state in the brain, seriously undermining the traditional metaphysical concept of the mind.
And exactly this already bothered me when I was a student. Descartes had invented his dualism and was troubled by this issue too.
What is the relation and possible interaction between mind and body. Descartes did even anatomical research on brains of dead people. He didn't really find an answer.
Although we might take the use and effects of psych-pharmacy for granted, it still leaves use with this peculiar observation.
We know there is a relation between the physical brain and our consciousness, but how this consciousness comes into being, we don't know.
Nevertheless there are all those pills, but a good whiskey does the same, that influence and can change our consciousness, our mind.
It has always puzzled me, the way that matter can affect the mind and it still does.
Thank you for your attention...

The Discussion

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): proost
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:18] herman Bergson whispers: Cheers! :-)
[13:18] CB Axel: :)
[13:19] herman Bergson: It is really my biggest  question in life.....
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (still medicating my brain with blue cheese)
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:19] herman Bergson: How does the brain relate to our consciousness.....?
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm interesting question
[13:20] herman Bergson: we just don't know...
[13:20] herman Bergson: ok...we have fMRI scans of the brain when a person says I feel happy.....
[13:20] herman Bergson: but that  is just a correlation....
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is the effect the same with chocolate and blue cheese?
[13:21] herman Bergson: both addictive Beertje :-)
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it feels good to eat that, but is that the same with alcohol?
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm I guess
[13:22] Wonny Masala (wonda.masala) is offline.
[13:22] CB Axel: I believe dark chocolate increases endorphins.
[13:23] herman Bergson: Seems this is the clearest situation that we have no answer at all :-)
[13:23] herman Bergson: It does CB
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if you are very thirsty on a hot summer day does a coo glas of water have the same effect?
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think so, at least here in my city cause we have really tasty tap water
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): fresh and nice with no traces of chlorine and similar
[13:24] herman Bergson: We know a lot of the chemistery of the brain.....what hormons do etc.....
[13:24] herman Bergson: but we are not able to see the whole picture
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so it's not the alcohol or the cheese, I guess it's the feeling of good things
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in general yes
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): might be
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for sure
[13:25] herman Bergson: The best metaphore I ever heard was by John Searle....
[13:25] herman Bergson: He is a glass of water
[13:25] herman Bergson: when I put in my finger it becomes wet...
[13:26] herman Bergson: when I analyze this water I finf H2 an O molucules....
[13:26] herman Bergson: but I don't find this wetness it creates.
[13:27] herman Bergson: That is the same with the brain....
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a property
[13:27] herman Bergson: I can analyze it to the last molecule.....and yet never find consciousness
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all liquids are wet and liquid is a state of matter caused by molecule interaction
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also a property
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): of the other thing combined
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but with a lot of alcohol one is consiousLess
[13:28] CB Axel: If you put your finger in a brain it doesn't become wet. It becomes gooey. But, yeah, that's a good metaphor.
[13:28] herman Bergson: You make me think of an old old philosophical from the Middle Ages....Bejiita
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:28] Jenny Core (jenny.kaos) is offline.
[13:29] herman Bergson: The question whether properties really exist ontologically or not
[13:30] herman Bergson: .
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the brain the chemicals ect are components = physical, consciousness is a property or state = not physical byt based on the components and how they interact
[13:30] Jenny Core (jenny.kaos) is online.
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats my definition id say in a simple way
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in general
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not just of the brain
[13:30] CB Axel: That makes sense.
[13:31] herman Bergson: I guess that you are right in is just that we don't understand the underlying processes
[13:31] herman Bergson: otherwise we could build conscious brains today
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed THAT is the more complex part
[13:31] herman Bergson: It is the Isaac Asimov world :-)
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): scary world
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:32] CB Axel: I'm sure someone is working on building a conscious brain.
[13:32] herman Bergson: self aware robots, Beertje :-)
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that sounds scary to me
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (imagines computer attacking me tired of all crap i have stuffed in it, bet its tired of all my game development )
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:33] herman Bergson: Well CB...I heard that to in relation to AI and these self learning algorithms...
[13:33] CB Axel: Yeah, but I wonder if they're trying to build an organic one. Made of goo like our brains.
[13:33] herman Bergson: but believe me......they even hardly scratched the surface of this issue
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I have just started experimenting a bit  with Tensorflow, the most popular AI library today
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Python based
[13:34] herman Bergson: They finally succeeded in creating artificial meat CB...
[13:34] CB Axel: I've been hearing about that.
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have not gotten to deep into it yet though
[13:35] herman Bergson: So we already got the muscles ...not the brains :-))
[13:35] CB Axel: I hope the day never comes that my hamburger starts questioning my decision to eat it.
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:35] herman Bergson: I would kill it on the spot :-)))
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (imagines hamburger fighting with CB)
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (throws some cheese into the fight)
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it would be crazy indeed
[13:36] Wisdomseeker (lissena) is online.
[13:36] herman Bergson: Being questioned by a hamburger....holy cow :-)
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not only the hmburger..but first the cow:)
[13:37] CB Axel: LOL
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then u really start to wonder "did i had too much whine and cheese?"
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's the wine Bejiita:)
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mostly yes
[13:37] CB Axel: Only if the hamburger is whining about being eaten.
[13:37] herman Bergson: Guess we have reached that level Bejiita....time to dismiss class :-)))))
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:37] CB Axel: LOL
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)))
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): before its getting to cheesy in here
[13:38] herman Bergson: Thank you all again....
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or WE are getting to cheesy
[13:38] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again Herman
[13:38] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[13:38] herman Bergson smiles
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time
[13:38] herman Bergson: I love cheese :-)
[13:38] CB Axel: I'm going to go out and buy some cheese. :)
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Comté
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))) 
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): CHEESE HERMAN!
[13:38] CB Axel: See you Thursday,
[13:39] herman Bergson: CHEERS BEJIITA  ^_^
[13:39] CB Axel: Bye. :)
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa cu then 
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):  

Wednesday, May 22, 2019

785: Goodbye Subconscious Mind....

-quote- It must be well known that the source of our pleasure, our joy, laughter and amusement, as well as our grief, pain, fear and tears, is nothing else than the brain.
It is this organ in particular that enables us to think, see and hear and to distinguish the ugly from the beautiful, the evil from the good, the pleasant from the unpleasant. 

It is also the brain where the seat of madness and madness, of fears and horrors, storms us, often at night, 

but sometimes even during the day; there lies the cause of insomnia and sleepwalking, of thoughts that do not want to come, of forgotten obligations and of strange phenomena. -end quote-
It wouldn't surprise you, when this is a quote from a famous contemporary neuroscientist. It is not. It is from Hippocrates (460 - 370 B.C.)
And what do we see? Science has arrived at this same perspective again in the 21st century.
For centuries, what went on in our heads, this mind, thinking, feeling, experiencing, knowledge was the playground of philosophy.
Then there was Freud, who claimed our psyche and constructed all kinds of theories about what goes on in there.
Then there came the opposition. The American psychologist Fred Skinner (1904-1990) equates the personality with the behavior that people exhibit. 

That behavior is again determined by the consequences of that behavior. As a result, you can teach people and animals almost everything,
says Skinner, as long as you confirm or reward the right behavior. 
In hundreds of animal studies, Skinner discovered that behavior that is regularly rewarded is more often practiced. 
He called this phenomenon operant conditioning. According to Skinner, it is that operant conditioning that shapes us to the people we are and gives us our unique personality.
In other words, away with this subconscious mind, ego and id in constant battle. There is just behavior, which is reinforced by reward and that made us who we are now.
A second player in the field became Cognitive Psychology. It deals with questions like: How do we store information in working memory? What changes in that process during aging? 
How does mood affect our perceptions? What brain areas allow you to switch between two tasks? And how does all that mental activity affect the body?
And one of its main methods of getting answers is scanning the brain for activity by fMRI etc.
There is a lot of information on the Internet about cognitive psychology. For instance I found a PDF of the book "Memory, Thinking and Language"  (1987)
Titles of chapters like: Thinking and knowledge - The structure of knowledge - Language and knowledge. I thought, oh dear, the psychologists are overtaking philosophical epistemology (theory of knowledge)?
It is our rational and irrational thinking that shapes us and our actions, not some mysterious subconscious. That idea you find in Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy.

For many years, mental health professionals would focus their attention on emotions and behaviors, 
giving less thought to how their clients actually think. 
Psychoanalysis didn’t consider the client’s way of thinking to be especially problematic; instead, it aimed to penetrate the unconscious mind.
Behaviorism also largely ignored the way people think, but for different reasons. The focus was on the client’s behavior rather than their inner experience.
The goal of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy is best summarized as “disputing”, challenging and questioning 
our irrational and dysfunctional beliefs and replacing them with more sensible and functional beliefs.
And thence we may conclude, that Hippocrates was right in his observations.
By the way, I found a PDF-book "Cognitive Psychology". If you're interested in the subject, there you'll find everything:
Thank you for your attention again....

The Discussion

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:22] herman Bergson: My main point of today is that the main focus on understanding man has shifyed from understanding all kinds of deep inner turmoil to scanning his brain.
[13:22] herman Bergson: That a more materialistic mind actually
[13:22] CB Axel: I can't help but think we need to do both.
[13:23] CB Axel: I'm not sure just watching what parts of the brain are active under different circumstances won't tell us everything.
[13:23] herman Bergson: REBT tries do do that to some extend, I'd say CB
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): do we have a materialistic mind or just a brain?
[13:24] herman Bergson: materialist mind is an incorrect expression indeed Beertje...:-)
[13:25] CB Axel: What do you mean by materialistic mind?
[13:25] herman Bergson: I meant by it that we interpret the mind more and more from a materialistic...(the brain) perspecttive
[13:25] CB Axel: Like Madonna? A material girl?
[13:25] herman Bergson: She had nice material, CB :-)
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Hád....
[13:25] CB Axel: Oh. So just physically what's happening electro-chemically in the brain?
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes CB
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:26] CB Axel: I'd like to think that we are more than that.
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): tricky stuff happens
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:26] CB Axel: but that could just be my brain trying to convince itself that it's more important than it really is.
[13:27] herman Bergson: The idea is that there isn't anything else inside us that controls our behavior than matter/brain
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's just a machine to keep us going?
[13:27] herman Bergson: Allow me to say that that is just like Ryle would say sloppy language, CB
[13:28] herman Bergson: In our language we have an "I" and a "brain"
[13:28] herman Bergson: But in reality they are one and the same
[13:28] CB Axel: I guess I do believe that I am my brain.
[13:29] herman Bergson: That is too simple in my opinion....
[13:29] herman Bergson: You are your consciousness.....
[13:29] herman Bergson: What we know is that the brain generates that....
[13:29] Wisdomseeker (lissena) is online.
[13:30] herman Bergson: But we have no answer how these two..consciousness and brain are related
[13:30] herman Bergson: we only know that they are
[13:31] CB Axel: Did we ever, while saving the world in previous topics, define consciousness?
[13:31] herman Bergson: If we know we could create an artificial consciousness by putting all right chemicals in a jar...shake somewhat and there it is ...a conscious jar :-)
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): scary thought
[13:31] CB Axel: I don't think shaking it would be enough. We'd need a bolt of lightning, too. LOL
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the jar then flies away and attacks you
[13:32] herman Bergson: I like that bolt of lightning as ingredient CB :-)
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (gets idea for crazy horror film)
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): THE POSSESSED LAB JAR!
[13:32] CB Axel: But I think that is one of the things people studying the possibility of extra-terrestrial life are looking at.
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes  Bejiita....we love to phantasize about it :-)
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:33] CB Axel: What happened on Earth that started life and can that have happened or is it happening on other planets.
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im good at instant ideas if anything
[13:33] CB Axel: LOL, Bejiita.
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well it would be strange if we were alone since the universe is so big
[13:34] herman Bergson: Indeed did our self consciousness come into being......we don't know
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): who says there is just one universe?
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): why would only the conditions for life exist at this very tiny spot in infinity
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa indeed
[13:34] herman Bergson: The question fascinates me.
[13:35] CB Axel: If we could find early life on some other celestial body, it might answer some of these questions.
[13:35] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita, one answer could be that evolution is a random process....anything has no logic in it in relation to matter...
[13:35] CB Axel: Or it might bring up even more questions.
[13:36] herman Bergson: so why should happen elsewhere what happened here if the possible combinations of events are infinite
[13:37] herman Bergson: if it was a kind of logical consequence of  matter, the universe would be crowded by planets with living organisms
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone is offline.
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the reason i think is life mostly thrive in right temperature and also there must be an atmosphere and water
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): earth is just the right distance from the sun, it have atmospher and water
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): = life can exist
[13:38] CB Axel: For life as we know it
[13:38] herman Bergson: There are many planets with the same conditions in other solar systems
[13:39] herman Bergson: That's the point CB.....
[13:39] herman Bergson: Why should life elsewhere have developed just like on earth, except in SF movies
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): small green men
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:40] herman Bergson: And again.....even when life developed in the same way.....
[13:40] herman Bergson: did this self-consciousness trick happened there to....????
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): could be
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why not
[13:41] herman Bergson: it is possible but not necessary....
[13:41] CB Axel: So there could be some form of life somewhere crawling around and not even aware that it's life?
[13:41] herman Bergson: I guess it is possible
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): are plants self aware?
[13:42] herman Bergson: Maybe even on Mars....that is  before the planet died
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): do they feel something
[13:42] herman Bergson: That are two different things Bejiita....
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but they are also alive
[13:43] herman Bergson: they are not self aware....but this feeling issue is really under debate
[13:43] CB Axel: People have measured electrical activity in plants that make it seem like the plants react to what's happening around them, like other plants being damaged.
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): trees can warn each other when there is an illness
[13:43] herman Bergson: Like plants developed strategies to defend themselves against specific attackers
[13:43] CB Axel: Exactly, Beertje.
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): heard about this too
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes..things like that Beertje
[13:44] herman Bergson: Due to the way we look(ed) at nature we hardly have any knowledge about it
[13:44] CB Axel nods
[13:45] herman Bergson: but people begin to wonder.....change their perspective....
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): at last
[13:45] CB Axel: For too long humans have considered themselves above and apart from nature.
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I had a Venus flytrap once and it was like a pet almost to me, we used to eat together, i fed it what i ate and it seemed to like it, the one day it had just died like that, felt sad for it
[13:45] herman Bergson: Well....we already managed to accept that animals can have real feelings...just like we have
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was like a pet almost
[13:46] CB Axel: maybe you fed it something that didn't agree with it.
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not that i know if it is good to give it spaghetti bolognese and taco but
[13:46] CB Axel: LOL
[13:46] herman Bergson: MY thought too CB
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): chips and cookies?
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it seemed to like it at first and a friend told me as long u dont overfeed it
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but processed food indeed might not be the best for them
[13:47] CB Axel: I like spaghetti bolognese and tacos, too, but I'd die if I ate too much of it. And I'm not a plant.
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:47] CB Axel: I'm self-aware enough to know I'm not a plant.
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:48] CB Axel: That sounds like an interesting experiment, though. See what human foods are good for Venus flytraps.
[13:49] CB Axel: It might give us insight on what foods are good for us, too. :-)
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think flies are the best
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm, i looked at one page recently and it said don't give them human food
[13:49] herman Bergson: as long as it contains the same ingredients as a should work :-)
[13:49] CB Axel: You have peculiar tastes, then, Beertje. lol
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well prepared food or not i get nutrients from both raw and cooked/fried meat but logically prefer the latter
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): (were are off topic).....
[13:51] herman Bergson: We are :-)
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so time to get something tasty
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it is as it should be
[13:51] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita...a fly perhaps?
[13:51] CB Axel: Fried fly
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well theoretically
[13:51] herman Bergson: A nice moment to conclude our discussion and fly away :-)
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they say insects are the food of the future and that fried grashoppers and ants are actually tasty, never tried though
[13:52] CB Axel: :)
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i ate anough flies on my way to get to school by bike...
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha
[13:52] CB Axel: LOL
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yak..
[13:52] herman Bergson: Time to go.....
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i choked on mosquitoes a while ago when out biking in the forest
[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:52] herman Bergson: Thank you all gain :-))
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))
[13:52] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa nice again
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now im gonna get something tasty to munch
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:52] CB Axel: Thank you for the class and for ending the fly eating discussion!
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha
[13:53] CB Axel: see you all Thursday[13:53] herman Bergson: Got to my stomach CB :-)
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles