Wednesday, May 8, 2019

781: Black and White......

Initially I thought I can't talk about this subject properly, because I don't live in the US. So, how can I know how it really is. But research  changed my mind.
What is the legacy of the 20th century regarding racial matters in the US? Is there a legacy or has it been lost?
In the course of the 1950s, black self-awareness grew. American blacks had fought in the war, and had run the same dangers as the whites. 
They very understandably wanted their share in post-war prosperity, and when it became clear in the 1950s that this was not happening, 
certainly not in the south where the segregation was clearly humiliating, it began to ferment among the blacks. 
After the ruling of the US Supreme Court on May 17, 1954 that racial segregation in schools was unconstitutional, rejecting the doctrine of "separate but equal" that prevailed until then, 
it was only a matter of time before Rosa Parks, a black American, was arrested in Montgomery, Alabama 18 months later,
for sitting in the front of a bus reserved for whites. It could be said that the civil rights movement that would tear America apart began that day.
I assume, that you all know what followed: Martin Luther King, The Civil Rights Movement, The March on Washington. What did it all bring?
"De jure", that is, for the law everyone is equal in the US. There is no discrimination by law. Nevertheless prisons are overpopulated by non white prisoners.
How did I change my mind regarding this subject? I thought why not google on "Racism in the US today" There must be some good articles about it.
Some good articles...... a tsunami, you could say: About 130,000,000 results (0.41 seconds) was the google response.
And there I found an excellent scientist and writer: Eddie S. Glaude jr. 
Glaude is the William S. Tod Professor of Religion and African American Studies at Princeton University and the author of "Democracy in Black".
He confirmed what I also had concluded time ago: "For many, Obama’s ascendance signaled the end of entitlement for whites. 
But instead, his presidency occasioned a resurgence of white resentment that set the stage for Trump."
Let's read some more Professor Glaude writes:
-QUOTE- The fact is that Americans have grown comfortable with racism resting just beneath the surface of our politics 
— to be activated whenever a politician or a community needed it, or some racist incident exhumed it only for us to bury it once again. 
What has resulted is an illusion that blinds us to what was actually happening right in front of our noses and in our heads 
— we believed that our country had become less racist, because we were not as brazen as we once were.
Trump has shattered that illusion. He rode race, the third rail of American politics, straight to the White House. 
He challenged Obama’s citizenship, called Mexicans rapists and criminals, proposed to ban all Muslims from entering the country, 
insisted on the need for “law and order,” argued that immigration was changing the “character” of the United States and openly courted white supremacists.-END QUOTE-
I wonder. Where is the legacy of the 20th century?
Thank you for your attention again....

The Discussion 

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:18] herman Bergson: By the way....
[13:18] herman Bergson: When I looked for a picture of professor Glaude I discovered that I knew him
[13:18]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): Thank you Herman.
[13:19] herman Bergson: He shows up on MSNBC as an expert in the panels
[13:19] herman Bergson: The hot issue here is this white supremacy
[13:19] CB Axel: I've always thought that we should let racists say what they want no matter how vile. That way we know who to keep out of our lives.
[13:20] herman Bergson: We here the same sounds in Europe too
[13:20] herman Bergson: So...are the whites a supreme race?
[13:21] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): no
[13:21]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): An interesting point is that racism has existed in all civilizations... no matter the skin of predominants.
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): were all the same race
[13:21]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): Egyptians thought that Libyans were animals.
[13:21] herman Bergson: True anja
[13:21] CB Axel: All you have to do is look at Trump and his friends to know whites are not superior.
[13:21] herman Bergson smiles
[13:21] CB Axel: True, Ana.
[13:21] herman Bergson: That's an easy one CB :-)
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): inded Trump should be put in a madhouse and the door welded together for ever
[13:22] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): yes, the in-group vs. out-group bias and the innate dislike for that which is different to us seems to have accompanied humanity always
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he is not clever at all, just a blabbering idiot boasting himself over everyone else
[13:22] CB Axel: I think it's in our primitive brains to fear people who don't look like us.
[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes...the everlasting US vs THEM theme
[13:22] CB Axel: It kept us safe when different tribes threatened us.
[13:23] CB Axel: But that can't work for us any more.
[13:23] herman Bergson: It has CB...but that time is over and our brain hasn't noticed it
[13:23] herman Bergson: On the other hand....maybe it is not that primitive...
[13:23] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): you cannot blame 1 man for the problems of a 30 million people country Particle
[13:23] CB Axel: We need to use the newer parts of our brain to recognize that.
[13:23]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): And I think that xenophobia, racism and those fears you say, CB, is  easily used by populists
[13:23] CB Axel: We have these big hominid brains and we have to use them.
[13:24] herman Bergson: There is also the fear of losing things.....wealth, status etc...
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but still well those who supports Trump well i don't get them either
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but also im not living in US
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i see a sad development as a result of Trump
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): more racism more hate ect
[13:24] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): maybe it was already there and he is like the receptacle
[13:25]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): Well Bejiita, politicians are the experts in setting fire they don't know how to stop.
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very true
[13:25] herman Bergson: By pointing to others and blaming them you can protect what YOU have....
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh
[13:25] CB Axel: It's not only in the US. I remember meeting a colleague of my father's in Germany. His wife didn't speak English, but I was able to understand that she didn't like the Türkische Gastarbeiter.
[13:26] herman Bergson: YEs indeed CB....
[13:26] herman Bergson: They steal our jobs a common slogan
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:27]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): Similarly, those arrested arbitrarily during Stalin dictatorship were called "enemies of the people", not allowed to call their equals comrades...
[13:27] herman Bergson: SO what we call racism may also be a mechanism to try to keep what you have ...... also as a culture
[13:27] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): I admit I´m not a fan of people coming illegally into Spain from the north of Africa
[13:28]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): All absolutist ideologies  try to dehumanize enemies.
[13:28] CB Axel: Trump is doing one thing right. He and his cronies are going to help change the balance between blacks and whites in prison by being arrested.
[13:28] herman Bergson: Like the free pres is the enemy of the people according to Trump
[13:28] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): whenever I've been mugged, my smartphone was stolen or got harassed..
[13:28] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): there was someone from Morocco involved
[13:28] herman Bergson: I understand Elisabeth....
[13:28] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): but thats such a politically incorrect view point, that I rarely mention it
[13:28] herman Bergson: our real problem is that we don't know how to deal with the situation
[13:29] CB Axel: I don't know why people are leaving North Africa for Spain, but I imagine it's for the same reasons Central and South Americans are coming to the US.
[13:29] herman Bergson: and a second problem is that we want others to integrate in our culture
[13:29] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): they are just fighting for their lives
[13:29] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): I understand it at an intellectual level, I support them in theory
[13:29] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): but then I dislike them
[13:29] CB Axel: White people have screwed up their home countries and made living there unbearable.
[13:29]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): Same reasons, CB
[13:30] herman Bergson: That is the paradox we live in Elisabeth
[13:30] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): because they steal, they are dangerous
[13:30] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): an 18 year old girl was raped by 8 of them this week
[13:30] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): and its not racist propaganda, it happened
[13:30] herman Bergson: another problem is that they may have a completely different set of (moral) values
[13:31]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): Question is who profits at the end.. and how could we help  people in the South so they don't need to migrate..... But that's along topic
[13:32] herman Bergson: the ideal situation it means we should share our wealth equally in this world and increase education everywhere to higher levels
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): + stop all wars
[13:32]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): that's so
[13:32]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): and protect people.
[13:32] herman Bergson: I still believe that education is one of the strongest weapons to change this world in a positive sense
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true
[13:32]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): That while respecting their cultures.
[13:32] CB Axel: I think so, too, Herman.
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:33] herman Bergson: Racism is only based on fear.....not on some intellectual process
[13:34] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): It can also emerge from day to day interaction with problematic groups imho
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:34] herman Bergson: And fear is based on lack of knowledge and insight
[13:34]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): Of course, as Elisabeth pointed out, the behavior of some people feed that fear.
[13:34] herman Bergson: So you need education
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if you have intellect you are not racist but accepting everyone
[13:34] herman Bergson: This is Elisabeth's paradox.....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if ur nice to me ill make friend with u, thats how it is for me
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no matter who u are
[13:35] herman Bergson: intellectually you understand, but walking in the street you feel fear
[13:35] CB Axel: How many native Spaniards rape? If one Spaniard commits a crime no one notices, but if a black person does its noticed right away.
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and nice in general of course
[13:35] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): CB, the problem is that they reach the country without parents
[13:35] Melkor (melkor87): Excuse me Herman, but while talking about some Important people from the US about racism I didn't hear you talking about Malcolm X. Could you tell me your opinion of him?
[13:35] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): they squat places in gangs and do not go to school
[13:35] CB Axel nods
[13:36] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): they have no job, no work permit, no money
[13:36] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): so they become thugs
[13:36]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): Well, rapes in Spain are more often in  the news than in other countries, despite  having less statistics.
[13:36]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): lower*
[13:36] herman Bergson: I have no detailed knowledge of Malcolm-X
[13:36] CB Axel: Yeah. It's different here. The people coming across our border for the most part just want a job. They are willing to work and send their kids to school.
[13:37]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): We had hot cases  last year, and the suited people were Spanish ones.
[13:37]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): not hidden in the news.
[13:37] herman Bergson: but my point of view is that any form of violence and denying the basic human rights is immoral...whether you are black or white
[13:37]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): That's so
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes indeed
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats an axiom for sure
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or what you would call it
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): logical true fact
[13:39] CB Axel: What I don't understand is why Americans say the Mexicans are coming to sell us drugs. Well, if that is true, who'd buying those drugs? I we would pay as much for avocados, say, as we do for cocaine they'd sell us avocados.
[13:39] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): What if the system is not ready to receive the flow of immigrants?
[13:39] CB Axel: That's a big part of the problem, Elisabeth.
[13:39] herman Bergson: That problem we have in Europe too
[13:39] CB Axel: Wow. That was a lot of typos up there for me. lol
[13:40] herman Bergson: A+ CB :-)
[13:40]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): Elisabeth, trouble is that developed countries are a small island in an ocean of misery, lack of freedom and violence. The day we are more equal, the attraction to Northern countries will stop
[13:40] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): I think immigration is going to escalate within the next decades
[13:41] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): and we will reach a critical point
[13:41] herman Bergson: .
[13:41]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity) nod
[13:41] CB Axel: Yeah. A lot of migration will be caused by sea level rise. :(
[13:41] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): right
[13:41] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): lets hope it stops
[13:41] herman Bergson: DOn't be too pessimistic....
[13:41] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): because if it continues to grow exponentially
[13:42] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): we are in trouble
[13:42]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): don't tell my home is  2m above the sea level.... lol
[13:42] CB Axel: Yikes! That's close.
[13:42] herman Bergson: Mine is 6m below sealevel, ANa
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however one truth about Mexico is that the first i think of is drug gangs, mass murders on both gang members and innocents ect, short Mexico is a land of murder and death = very unsafe place, at least was recently, all because of the drugs
[13:42] herman Bergson: if not more
[13:42]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): but you are in a viking country,  Herman...
[13:42] CB Axel: That would frighten me, Herman.
[13:43] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): yes, the crime statistics for Mexico are mind blowing particle
[13:43] herman Bergson: It never frightens a Dutchman worries ^_^
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so there is an issue there but we can to say ALL Mexicans are drug makers and murdereres, also was long since i heard about mass graves in Mexico ect now
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but wall all time on news a couple of years ago
[13:44] CB Axel: Yes, Bejiita, but most of the people coming in from Mexico are the ones running from the warlords and drug sellers.
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes i think so too
[13:44] herman Bergson: The simple fact is, Bejiita that that country Mexico should be reorganized....
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they want to escape that hell
[13:44] herman Bergson: but of course that is an utopian idea....
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa thats probably a good idea but how?
[13:44] herman Bergson: or in terms of history ....a very long process
[13:44] CB Axel: And the US had a large part in making their country poor and badly governed.
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i can imagine that CB
[13:45] herman Bergson: That is what I meant by saying don't be too pessimistic....
[13:45]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): Well, Mexico University  is a good one....  We cannot make general statements about a whole country for what happens across the boundaries
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): something causes thing to go out of control
[13:45] CB Axel: Very true, Ana.
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): whatever it is
[13:45] herman Bergson: The number of wars has dropped through the centuries....
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and that needs to be fixed whatever it is
[13:45] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): The Dalai Lama recently said that we should help people build up their countries of origin, that massive migratory movements were not the solution. The social networks were on fire after that speech
[13:45] herman Bergson: world wide level of education has increased....
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true
[13:45] herman Bergson: poverty is diminished....
[13:46] herman Bergson: and so on....
[13:46] CB Axel: I agree with him, Elisabeth.
[13:46]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): For a comparison.. I would not define a British as someone sneaking  drugs  through Gibraltar...
[13:46] herman Bergson: but it goes slowly...
[13:46]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): llol
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in general thinks seem to go forward but still there are things rising up that shouldn't be in our modern world at all like IS and similar
[13:46] herman Bergson: I have said it before.....
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at leat finally they seem to start be taken down
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): see
[13:47] herman Bergson: we are inclined to see a problem and  want to have it solved within our lifetime....
[13:47] herman Bergson: but history works much slower...
[13:47] herman Bergson: some changes to the good take generations....
[13:48]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): But improving right little by little, in my humble opinion.
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems so, also Hitlers ideas should have died with him but they are still precent today as well
[13:48] herman Bergson: we in our lifetime can START some development in the right direction....
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but luckily not dominating jut causing a riot here and there
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just
[13:48] herman Bergson: They die slowly Bejiita
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if u could call that luckily
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm seems so
[13:49]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): I agree..
[13:49] herman Bergson: and as I said...Hitler's ideas weren't his.....they are in our system...
[13:49] herman Bergson: fear....fake feelings of superiority....
[13:49] herman Bergson: we havent outgrown that  yet
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a larger system which he sort of amplified to his system
[13:49] CB Axel: I do think that we are slowly getting better even is the US has taken a big step backwards in the last few years.
[13:50] herman Bergson: Yes CB....
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa in general we do i think also
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for sure
[13:50] herman Bergson: There is NO segragation de jure anymore in the US
[13:50] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): Romper Stomper is a great film which depicts that topic brilliantly Particle, starring Russel Croowe (I recommend it)
[13:50] herman Bergson: schools still here and there....
[13:50] CB Axel: Not de jure, true, but there is still de facto segregation.
[13:50]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): I will watch it, Elisabeth
[13:51]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): thank you
[13:51] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): .)
[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes CB
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:51] herman Bergson: What is the theme of that movie Elisabeth?
[[13:52] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): oh, some neonazis attacking Vietnamese residents in Melbourne
[13:52] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): but it depicts the problem of neonazi ideology these days brilliantly
[13:52] herman Bergson: ahh interesting...I'll look for it too
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki
[13:52] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): all the agression, the in-group out-group bias, the poverty and the drugs as a root cause, identity issues
[13:52] CB Axel: I'll have to add that to my watch list.
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that is probably the root cause for most of these things
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its desperation
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): basically
[13:53] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): a scenario of scarcity, yes
[13:53] herman Bergson: Well.....this was a complex discussion and good content.....
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:54] herman Bergson: I guess we all deserve a rest :-))
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): much complex things indeed
[13:54]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity) snores
[13:54]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): ;)
[13:54] herman Bergson: So, thank you all for your participation
[13:54] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): ty :)
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): right now i try learn coding NES games in assembler just for a change
[13:54] herman Bergson: and wake up Ana
[13:54] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thankyou Herman :))
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): THAT is complex! more then i thought even
[13:54]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): °°°·.°·..·°¯°·._.· ģίģģĻέş ώίĻȡĻч  ·._.·°¯°·.·° .·°°°
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but still interesting
[13:54]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): thank you Herman
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so im back to that
[13:54] Melkor (melkor87): Thank You Herman.
[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...:-)
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and cu next time
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:55]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity):
[13:55] CB Axel: See you Thursday, everyone.
[13:55] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): waves goodbye
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye
[13:55] herman Bergson: Bye Elisabeth
[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman and class!! .. very interesting!

[13:55]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): bye all.

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