Thursday, September 27, 2018

735: How scientific was Spengler....?

Relying only on comparisons to prove a point rather than arguing deductively and inductively is called a logical fallacy.
Example: “Education is like cake; a small amount tastes sweet, but eat too much and your teeth will rot out. 
Likewise, more than two years of education is bad for a student.” 
The analogy is only acceptable to the degree to which a reader agrees that education is similar to cake. 
As you can see, faulty analogies are like flimsy wood, and just as no carpenter would build a house out of flimsy wood, 
(see the analogy here too :-) no writer should ever construct an argument out of flimsy material.
An analogy can be quite appealing, but it can not be the base of scientific theories. Let's see what Oswald Spengler thinks about this.
Spengler: "The means whereby to identify dead forms is Mathematical Law. The means whereby to understand living forms is Analogy. 
By these means we are enabled to distinguish polarity and periodicity in the world."
Spengler: "Mathematics and the principle of Causality lead to a naturalistic Chronology 
and the idea of Destiny to a historical ordering of the phenomenal world. 
Both orderings, each on its own account, cover the whole world. The difference is only in the eyes by which and through which this world is realized."
So much on Spengler's scientific method. It is a method of writing about history, but can we call it scientific?
The means whereby to understand living forms is Analogy, is just a creative idea of Spengler.
There is no epistemological or empirical argumentation available to justify this point of view.
Secondly, according to Spengler, there is more than just chains of causes and effects. There is also Destiny which brings order in the phenomenal world.
"The difference is only in the eyes by which and through which this world is realized", which means that there are
more ways of gaining knowledge than the scientific empirical method, based on the analysis of cause and effect.
Any theologian would tell you that, if you ask him how you can get knowledge about god.
"The Decline of the West" is more than a thousand pages. You are free to spend your time on reading it, of course. 
I am done with Spengler and will move on with our project.
Thank you for your attention and feel free to ask questions or give us your opinion....

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: .
[13:19] herman Bergson: Maybe it all was to condensed for you
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess in realith there is no other way, Science is the only real way gaining true knowledge
[13:20] herman Bergson: But the main point is that all stories about cultures by Spengler and his explanations of these cultures are in terms of an analogy with living organisms
[13:20] CB Axel: So, Spengler felt that every culture will eventually decline?
[13:20] herman Bergson: That is what happens to plants CB
[13:20] CB Axel: But he bases it only on the fact that all living things eventually decline?
[13:20] herman Bergson: so he concluded that it also will happen to any culture
[13:21] CB Axel: So he felt that human culture is a living thing?
[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes...
[13:21] CB Axel: I suppose you could look at it that way.
[13:21] herman Bergson: It is an ever changing phenomenon...true....
[13:22] herman Bergson: But a plant emerges blooms and dies....
[13:22] herman Bergson: and there is no argument or proof that human culture behaves the same
[13:22] CB Axel: I've often wondered if the Earth is a living thing and humans are like viruses infecting it.
[13:22] herman Bergson: and the fact that you compare it to a plant doesnt mean a thing...
[13:23] herman Bergson: In a way , as some people assume, we ARE a virus
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well other species adapt themselves to the nature, we adapt the nature after us instead
[13:24] herman Bergson: The fact is that the moment we got self consciousness we moved  from the middle range of the foodchain to the top of the food chain....
[13:24] herman Bergson: That demolished the whole eco-system of this earth
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): plus we often kill and eradicate everything from insects to bigger animals without even being hungry
[13:25] herman Bergson: other animals do that too, Bejiita
[13:25] herman Bergson: just kill for the kill
[13:26] herman Bergson: But to make a point.....
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but not like some of us do i think, many species have gone extinct cause of that and that we destroy things like the rain forest to make money of palm oil and similar things
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): destroying the nature in the process
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nature
[13:27] herman Bergson: Spending time on reading Spengler is a waste of time, unless you like imaginative stories
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita, we are good at that and good at fighting and protesting against it
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): luckily many of us are on that side as well
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): realizing what will happen if this continues
[13:29] herman Bergson: Indeed..
[13:29] herman Bergson: But the question here is, is the Western culture in its final stage, if you follow Spengler....
[13:30] herman Bergson: However, he thought that  stage was already reached in 1925
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:31] herman Bergson: Is there a new culture rising somewhere?
[13:31] herman Bergson: Why didn't emerge somewhere else another culture?
[13:31] CB Axel: China
[13:32] herman Bergson: No...according to Spengler that culture is over....
[13:32] CB Axel: Not in 1925, but I think maybe China is rising again.
[13:32] herman Bergson: Let me explain....
[13:32] herman Bergson: In Spengler's theory a culture was a living thing.....
[13:32] herman Bergson: it grows...then blooms....and then.....?
[13:33] herman Bergson: it petrifies in what he then called Civilization.....
[13:33] joann (joannovia): i have to leave sorry..bye all
[13:33] herman Bergson: Bye Joan...see you around
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): tot ziens Joann
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye Joan
[13:33] joann (joannovia): tot gauw
[13:33] joann (joannovia): daag
[13:34] herman Bergson: This civilization is some kind of solid state of a culture....
[13:34] herman Bergson: no new grows etc....can last forever
[13:35] CB Axel: So it can't rise from its ashes like a phoenix?
[13:35] herman Bergson: So if you say China....according to Spengler that would be a civilization now....not a culture anymore
[13:35] CB Axel: Ah.
[13:36] herman Bergson: Here you see the problem with using analogies to  explain just doesn't work
[13:36] CB Axel: Some plants are perennials and come back year after year.
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what do you call a culture Herman?
[13:36] FrannyDJ Dean is offline.
[13:36] CB Axel: Not only did Spengler not understand human cultures, but he didn't know much about plants, either.
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well culture and civilisation are not really the same thing, to me culture is the language, art and other things characterizing this particular civilization, different dances, traditions ect
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats culture to me
[13:38] herman Bergson: According to Spengler there were three stages...
[13:38] herman Bergson: 1    Peasantry: The world of peasantry which is pre-Cultural and lived in the countryside. It is also outside “high” culture
[13:38] herman Bergson: 2    Culture: The period of Culture which grows and develops in the town and city.
[13:39] herman Bergson: So the agricultural situation became overwhelmed by the rise of cities..
[13:40] herman Bergson: 3    Civilization: Each Culture begins to stagnate and die within the mega-city (megopolis) which is a phenomenon of Civilization.
[13:40] roos Gartner is offline.
[13:41] herman Bergson: So the mega cities like Paris and New York or London are the proof of this stagnation...
[13:41] herman Bergson: That is how Spengler saw things...
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dont see any sign of france or US going away anyway soon
[13:41] FrannyDJ Dean is online.
[13:42] herman Bergson: Neither do I Bejiita :-)
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so indeed Spengler seems to have missed some things here and there in his comparisons
[13:42] herman Bergson: Only the US is fading....:-)
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats because of Trump
[13:42] herman Bergson: As Trump said today...I don't believe in globalization....we choose for the UN Assembly
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i saw now he tiumphed and boasted about that he had accomplished more things then any other ever
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i just UUUUUUUAAAAAHHH
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he maybe have spead more shit then any president ver
[13:43] CB Axel: He has a different view of what's patriotic than I do.
[13:43] herman Bergson: Bejiita....just watch this....Trump sais a lot of things to which he adds....."in history....
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he is only interested in whats gaining him
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what he makes money from
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nothing else
[13:44] herman Bergson: My government achieved more than any other in history.....which made the Assembly people laugh....
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even if he so would start WW3 in the process
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as long he would make money from it
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he is scary
[13:44] herman Bergson: Then he said...
[13:45] herman Bergson: Ohh I didnt expect that reaction...but that is ok....
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:45] CB Axel: I was so glad they laughed at him.
[13:45] CB Axel: He hates being laughed at.
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hat else would he expect
[13:45] herman Bergson: the man didn't even feel embarresed....
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or does he realy think he make so many good things
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i said before he should have been locked up in an asylum long before he got a chance to enter white house
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and throw away the key to his cell.
[13:46] CB Axel: I'm sure he'll tweet something incredibly stupid tonight.
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): me too
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): boasting about how good he is
[13:46] herman Bergson: slow down Bejiita...
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): UUUUGHH BLAAAAAH!
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well well well see wht happens
[13:47] herman Bergson: please :-)
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and ww3 have not begun yet
[13:47] CB Axel: Easy, Bejiita. You're going to give yourself a heart attack.
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes CB, my concern too
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but I just dont get Trump
[13:47] herman Bergson: You don't need to Bejiita....
[13:48] CB Axel: I actually do get him. I don't get the people who voted for him and still think he's the best thing to come along ever.
[13:48] herman Bergson: So if Spengler is right with his theory....maybe it applies to America....
[13:48] herman Bergson: Well CB...there was a poll....
[13:49] herman Bergson: They asked people..when Trumps says something, do you believe him....
[13:49] herman Bergson: They asked Reps by the way....93% said YESA
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): shudders
[13:49] herman Bergson: Second question...
[13:50] herman Bergson: When a relative says the you believe that relative....
[13:50] herman Bergson: 63% said YES
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eeeh
[13:50] CB Axel: I heard about that poll, too.
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:50] herman Bergson: Too weird....
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very
[13:50] CB Axel: They want desperately to believe that Trump will make their lives better.
[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes...Trump is the King of the White losers in the US
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eve when its obvious he is just talking BS
[13:51] CB Axel: They want it so desperately that they'll believe him even when there is proof that they shouldn't.
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): must be that
[13:51] CB Axel: He is their great white hope.
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they dont want to realize they have voted for the wrong guy
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that they had wrog
[13:52] CB Axel: They can't accept that white men are no longer control of everything.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): confirmation bias i think its called
[13:52] CB Axel: *in control
[13:52] herman Bergson: Indeed CB......that 8 years with a black president hit them hard...very hard
[13:53] CB Axel: I wonder what they would have done if Obama had been followed by a woman president.
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what difference does skin color make in making good decisions
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nothing
[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes....more disaster, CB
[13:54] CB Axel: I don't think (I'd have to do a search of US demographics through the years) that white men have ever been a majority of people in the US.
[13:54] herman Bergson: With all weapons around in the US...Trump could even cause a new civil war.....
[13:54] CB Axel: They've been the majority of voters, but only because they made the laws that said who could vote.
[13:55] CB Axel: I've wondered about that, Herman.
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or in worst case WW3, maybe even a global nuclear war = armageddon, end of all civilizations and life on the entire planet
[13:55] herman Bergson: too
[13:55] CB Axel: Some Californians are already talking about succeeding.
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i really hope this is never gonna be even a slight risk
[13:55] CB Axel: Seceding. Sorry
[13:55] herman Bergson: Yes I know
[13:55] CB Axel: Forming their own country.
[13:56] CB Axel: I've thought for years that we should give Texas back to Mexico. °͜°
[13:56] herman Bergson: oh my....
[13:56] herman Bergson: You really think they love to joins the spics
[13:56] CB Axel: No, but I'd be glad to be shot of them.
[13:57] CB Axel: Most of them, anyway. I know a couple Texans I like. °͜°
[13:57] herman Bergson smiles
[13:57] herman Bergson: Yes there are always good guys and bad guys...everywhere :-)
[13:57] CB Axel: Texans love to brag that they're the most patriotic Americans but they have one of the lowest voting rates of all the states.
[13:58] herman Bergson: Funny Rednecks :-)
[13:58] CB Axel: They think patriotism is waving flags, having parades and cookouts, and blowing things up on holidays.
[13:58] CB Axel: Oh, and owning guns.
[13:58] CB Axel: That's not my view of patriotism.
[13:58] herman Bergson: and be white supremacists
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:59] CB Axel: I guess. Only whites can be patriots.
[13:59] herman Bergson: Indeed CB....
[13:59] herman Bergson: Well to conclude this session.....
[14:00] herman Bergson: go to the next URL and check out the Youtube like in the caption....CB does already know it :-))
[14:00] herman Bergson:
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki
[14:00] herman Bergson: Thank you for your participation again....class dismissed

Tuesday, September 25, 2018

734: Oswald Spengler himself...

It is exactly 100 years ago Oswald Spengler's "The Decline of the West" (1918) was first published.
That is of course the reason, that a Dutch publisher found it profitable to publish a Dutch translation of the book this year.
When it was published in 1918 it immediately was a bestseller (1918 - 1922), volume 1 and 2.
The english translation by Charles Francis Atkinson was published in New York in 1926. sixth printing, May 1927.
At least the book was highly controversial. It had friends and foes.
Academics gave it a mixed reception. Max Weber (1864 - 1920) was a prominent German sociologist, philosopher, jurist, and political economist.

He described Spengler as a "very ingenious and learned dilettante", while Karl Popper called the thesis of "The Decline in the West" pointless.
Yet it is quite a thesis to claim, that Western Culture is declining inevitably and then....???  What comes after the decline? Are we in decline now or past it? 
Time for a Closer Look at Spengler.....
"In this book is attempted for the first time the venture of predetermining history, of following the still untravelled stages in the destiny of a Culture, 
and specifically of the only Culture of our time and on our planet which is actually in the phase of fulfillment - the West-Europe an-American."
This quotation is the opening statement of the Introduction of the book on page 3. It is already loaded with (questionable) assumptions.
"the venture of predetermining history": this assumes at least that history follows a predetermined path.
There is for the time being no proof, that this really is the case, but we must be fair....this is just the opening sentence of the book.
"the destiny of a Culture": this is a big assumption from a philosophical point of view.
It implies that history is teleological in nature, which means that it is heading for some specific goal or destiny,
People who believe in the bible know what their destiny is. Eventually you'll appear before your Lord and you'll hear your destiny: Heaven or Hell.
But how is it with history? How can we know our destiny through time? Who can or already has revealed it to us?
To those questions Spengler has an answer. His whole "The Decline of the West" is based on it.

Let's hear it:
"Cultures are organisms, and world-history is their collective biography. Morphologically, the immense history of the Chinese or of the Classical Culture 
is the exact equivalent of the petty history of the individual man, or of the animal, or the tree, or the flower. " pag. 104
Cultures are organisms, that is the thesis of Spengler. What he meant by that and if it makes sense scientifically, we'll discuss next Tuesday.
Thank you for your attention..... ^_^

The Discussion
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we are nothing
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): individually then
[13:28] herman Bergson: ohh...?
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is that what he meant?
[13:29] herman Bergson: No, I would not read that in it
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh
[13:30] herman Bergson: but in a way you could say that as an individual we are cells of a body...
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hmm
[13:30] CB Axel: I think he meant that like any living organism cultures are born, they live, they mature, and they die.
[13:30] herman Bergson: every cell counts...but the body as a whole counts more, I assume
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that i get
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but what did he really think of the individual then
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the petty history .....
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): of me
[13:31] herman Bergson: so dieing in a war as individual is a sacrifice to the body
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ahha
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that makes sense
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for him i mean
[13:31] herman Bergson: There is this line of thinking......that the collective is more valuable than the individual
[13:32] herman Bergson: the individual serves the collective...
[13:32] herman Bergson: That is why so many lives were sacrificed in WW-1 and WW-2
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok
[13:33] herman Bergson: You fought for your nation....your culture and race
[13:34] CB Axel: Hmm. I've never been in the military, but I think I'd feel more like fighting to maintain the freedoms I'd like all nations to have.
[13:34] herman Bergson: It fits into the picture of Spengler....We have topreserve our is an organism...
[13:34] herman Bergson: In a way that is the US philosophy still
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sounds a bit like the borg collective
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or a bee hive
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks so partly
[13:35] herman Bergson: and European too
[13:35] herman Bergson: The European parliament condemned Hungary last week....
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i read that
[13:36] herman Bergson: because the government suppresses free press and monopolizes the justice system
[13:36] herman Bergson: same applied to Poland
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes just thought of that
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): both going terribly in wrong direction
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): just like Turkey
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes....and we fight for the freedoms we have...just as CB said
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the prime minister just asked trump to set a division there permanenty
[13:37] herman Bergson: Indeed Beertje....we forgot Turkey
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a new perm base
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh turkey did such a U turn
[13:38] herman Bergson: But it isn't part of the European Union
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wow
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they want to be
[13:38] herman Bergson: I know
[13:38] herman Bergson: but do I want it :-)))
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i guess NO
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no i think not
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): me either
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thy will never as long Erdogan is there and he will make sure he is never loosing his power, just look what he did before to everyone opposing him, he is awful!
[13:39] herman Bergson: Indeed
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a monster
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Power sadly seems to do this
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least in many cases
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cases
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes bej
[13:39] CB Axel: Yes. It's happening here in the US.
[13:39] herman Bergson: Power does something to the human brain.....
[13:40] herman Bergson: The longer you are in power, the more wrong it goes in the brain....
[13:40] herman Bergson: So..a system of only 4 years in power is very healthy
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u loose all empathy and feel for others you just care more and more about yourself and your power
[13:41] herman Bergson: yes something like that, Bejiita
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and become more and more terrible against other people
[13:41] herman Bergson: the West in decline?
[13:41] herman Bergson: Was Spengler right?
[13:42] herman Bergson: in his prediction?
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): was Spengler a democrat?
[13:42] CB Axel: I think maybe individual countries are in decline.
[13:42] herman Bergson: not at all!
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe a burp
[13:42] herman Bergson: He forsaw the rise of a strong Leader....
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he voted for Hitler :(
[13:43] CB Axel: Was the west in decline when Britain began to lose all its colonies?
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and from there the world went down the drain more or less
[13:43] CB Axel: Britain was in decline, but not the entire west.
[13:43] herman Bergson: in 1933 he met Hitler and had a long talk with him....but Spengler concluded that Hitler was too vulgar....not the HERO - LEADER he had in mind
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but he voted for him
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats good he realized that
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why?
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm that seems strange to do in that case
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): probably his mustache
[13:44] herman Bergson: Because he voted for National socialism, I assume
[13:44] CB Axel: Just like people voted for Trump even though they knew he was a racist, misogynist heap of manure.
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): rigth
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ugh
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still don't get it
[13:45] CB Axel: They felt, and many still do, that Trump is on their side and will bring back the economy.
[13:45] CB Axel: Even though the economy was already getting better.
[13:45] herman Bergson: yes...
[13:45] CB Axel: Now, I see us as on the road to another great depression.
[13:46] herman Bergson: nothing really wrong with US economy, I'd say
[13:46] CB Axel: Not that I'm an economic expert, but still.
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not yet Herman
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): China is not happy with Trump
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not a thing yet
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): unless the tariffs really cause loss
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): which they could
[13:47] CB Axel: Well, people were losing their jobs. But many of those jobs were in industries that were declining anyway.
[13:47] herman Bergson: They already  do...
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): doing harm in farming
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): soy
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bit harm
[13:47] herman Bergson: yes
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and i dont see any steel mills opening
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yet
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:47] herman Bergson: But the main political point here is that a looser always needs an enemy....
[13:47] herman Bergson: an external enemy
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or companies rushing back to open here again
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or middle class pay raises
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a looser never says sorry I was wrong
[13:48] herman Bergson: companies wont return to the US for production purposes...
[13:48] herman Bergson: They'lll move to India or other asian countries
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Africa
[13:49] herman Bergson: In relation to China Trump plays the tough businessman who gets his deals...
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is ready
[13:50] herman Bergson: You might be right there indeed, Gemma
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): government is not like business at all i think
[13:50] herman Bergson: that is why this tarifs war is so pointless
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and his lies go way back in reference to his businsses too
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): way back
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he doesn't lie Gemma, he has his own truth...
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes
[13:51] CB Axel: lol
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): which is all fake
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but of course he believes EVERYONE elses ideas and news are fake
[13:51] herman Bergson: The only happy people at this moment are the Russians....
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as usual
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there is a group keeping track of his lies  and he has surpassed 4000
[13:52] herman Bergson: long time ago they already bought Trump.....was a long lasting project
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that can be proven
[13:52] CB Axel: People are too impressed with wealth.
[13:52] herman Bergson: yes I know...isn't it the Washington Post?
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cant recall
[13:53] CB Axel: I'm more impressed with integrity and compassion.
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): does he have some CB?
[13:53] CB Axel: He has nothing but money.
[13:53] CB Axel: He's worthless, really.
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yess
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so true
[13:54] herman Bergson: And yet I do not believe that he is the sign of the Decline of the West...:-)
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he looks like a pile of the rubbish he is actually made from
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or Jabba the Hut
[13:54] CB Axel: No. He's just a sign of the decline of the US.
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but that is an insult to Jabba
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no i don't either
[13:55] herman Bergson: I am more optimistic CB....
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what do you believe Herman?
[13:55] herman Bergson: He is the best wake-up call the US ever could have...:-)
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed couldnt believe it when i heard trump had won
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we will hopefully see the beginning of the end in November
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): fingers crossed
[13:55] CB Axel: But the people who elected him aren't waking up.
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:55] herman Bergson: Oh yes...cant wait till November...
[13:56] herman Bergson: He lost the popular vote CB
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we didn't believe he would be president either, so anything ca happen
[13:56] CB Axel: They want to protect the possibility of becoming rich and privileged rather than face the reality that if things keep going the way they are, they're just going to keep getting farther and farther behind.
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and i know some who would not vote for hilary so did not vote at all
[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have to run
[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you Gemma
[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Gemma
[13:57] herman Bergson: Have fuyn
[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again Herman
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu around
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): next time
[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you all...
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...:-)
[13:57] CB Axel: Well, the Democratic party needs to listen to the people and not give us someone who keeps campaigning in the old ways.
[13:58] CB Axel: OK. Well, I'll see you all next week. Bye.
[13:58] herman Bergson: What do you think of Avenatti, CB ?
[13:58] CB Axel: I don't really know anything about him. I keep meaning to read about him, but I still haven't.
[13:58] herman Bergson: I like that guy
[13:59] CB Axel: Maybe I'll do that now. °͜°
[13:59] herman Bergson: He is clever and sharp.....
[13:59] herman Bergson: Lots of him on Youtube....
[13:59] CB Axel: I'll see you Tuesday.
[13:59] herman Bergson: was fun....Avenatti against Tucker Carlson on FoxNews....
[13:59] herman Bergson: You should see that CB :-)
[14:00] CB Axel: I saw that video was posted but I haven't watched. I'll do that now. °͜°
[14:00] herman Bergson: should :-))
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

Wednesday, September 19, 2018

733: Spengler's influence on our reality of today.....

In a recent interview Aleksandr Gelyevich Dugin, a Russian philosopher, political analyst, and strategist known for his fascist views, with close ties with the Kremlin,
said, that every folk/people has its own culture and thence also has its own truth. 
When you talk about cultural values, this can make sense to some extend, but he meant more.
The British police has identified two Russian agents as suspects in the poison attack in Salisbury, UK. The Russians deny it
and a man like Dugin will justify this with the observation, that you have Western truth and you have Russian truth.
A show of absolute relativism. There is no absolute truth. There is only your own truth or the truth within your culture.
This is inline with the philosophy, that emerged in the 1970s: Post-Modernism.
Postmodernist philosophers in general argue that truth is always contingent on historical and social context rather 
than being absolute and universal and that truth is always partial and "at issue" rather than being complete and certain.
An other good quote and believe me, this so called post-modernism has colored the end of the previous century.
In their book "The New Tolerance" (1998) Josh McDowell and Bob Hostetler offer the following definition of postmodernism:
"A worldview characterized by the belief that truth doesn't exist in any objective sense but is created rather than discovered. ... 
[Truth is] created by the specific culture and exists only in that culture. 
Therefore, any system or statement that tries to communicate truth is a power play, an effort to dominate other cultures."
Dugin, Post-modernists, they are all indebted to Oswald Spengler and "The Decline of the West"
Remember, that volume One was written before World War One, but it paved the road for what we now are experiencing.
There are no facts anymore, there always are alternative facts. 
We have a world leader who demonstrably has lied more than 4000 times until now
And I heard a sane, well educated  person on TV defend the liar, when confronted with a flagrant lie of the world leader,
with the argument.....Well, he is entitled to his own opinion.
On whose shoulders are we standing, when we look at the 20th century?    

One pair of shoulders seem to be those of Oswald Spengler.
Previous lecture I promised you to dig into Spengler today, but there is happing and thence to tell so much today 
that I had to move the lecture on "The Decline of the West" itself to next time.
Thank you for your attention....

The Discussion

[13:13] CB Axel: Thank you.
[13:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :)7
[13:13] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:13] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:13] herman Bergson: Feel free to add your comments....:-)
[13:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well, whose truth is the correct one, with russia their denial sounded just like another typical Russian coverup to protect their pride
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or other words untrue
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed, what is the real truth, is there any?
[13:14] herman Bergson: I'd say Yes, Bejiita...
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there have to be only what really is is true
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): everything else is false
[13:14] herman Bergson: Keep in mind that this post modernist stand is selfcontradictory....
[13:15] herman Bergson: They say....there is NO ABSOLUTE truth.......
[13:15] herman Bergson: However,,,,this can only be true when this statement is an absolute truth...
[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaah
[13:15] herman Bergson: a universal truth
[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think i get it
[13:16] herman Bergson: So...are there real facts?
[13:16] herman Bergson: Yes....
[13:16] herman Bergson: is there undeniable truth....universal truth ...yes....
[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems logical
[13:16] herman Bergson: just go to any hospital and look what...all over the world...physicians do...
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said only what really is can be true
[13:17] herman Bergson: Yes...but you can destabilize a world by questioning that...
[13:18] CB Axel: If nothing is true then it must be true that that statement is false.
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well yes
[13:18] herman Bergson: There is a tendency to question the truths of science, the fact finding of journalists....
[13:18] herman Bergson: Yes CB, which  cannot be true :-)
[13:19] Hope (naskiff): You assume what is questioned is a truth, are you sure it's not just a theory?
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like one day they say eating eggs give u cancer and the next day they say eat a many eggs u want its good for your health
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i believe the later one
[13:19] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.
[13:19] herman Bergson: In what sense a theory, Hope?
[13:20] Hope (naskiff): For example, the usual dogma used to be that you should not eat fat, because you are what you eat, and lots of scientists know that fat is bad for you.
[13:20] Hope (naskiff): Would you dare question science, or should we shut up and nod?
[13:20] Hope (naskiff): It was a truth back then, wasn't it?
[13:21] herman Bergson: What we eat and its consequences is a complex thing.....
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:21] CB Axel: We should all question science because that's what science is. It's questioning.
[13:21] Hope (naskiff): It is!  In this case, whatever science thinks about such a complex matter, we should probable question it, always. ^^
[13:21] herman Bergson: it is a truth when you assume the premiss that people get sick because of overweight...
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they say cholesterol is bad but ow we know that there is a good and a bad type, still some claim just Cholesterol is BAD
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not ALL of it
[13:21] CB Axel: Part of the problem, as I see it, is the way scientific studies are reported in the news.
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its blown up
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to sell more papers
[13:22] herman Bergson: That is a serious problem indeed CB....
[13:22] CB Axel: If one study comes out saying that the subjects of that study had a bad outcome from eating fat, the news media blurt out that obviously fat is bad for us.
[13:22] herman Bergson: And I can tell you why....
[13:22] CB Axel: They don't look at who funded the study.
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that ALL fat is bad
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true CB
[13:23] herman Bergson: and already Spengler wrote it!
[13:23] CB Axel: They don't wait to see if that study gets replicated.
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said they just want to sell more papers by giving people health panic
[13:23] herman Bergson: exactly....
[13:23] CB Axel: They just read the summary of the study and don't look at its methodology or anything.
[13:23] herman Bergson: Spengler already stated that science was about money
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the result is eating disorder and anorexia
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and other health problems
[13:24] Hope (naskiff): Supposedly the guy who pushed the "fat is bad" idea was someone who had a huge pile of "evidence" to back up his claim, lots of studies and such. Anyone who would dispute him would look like a fool and possibly risk their career.
[13:24] CB Axel: If the reporters reporting one science don't understand science, they don't know what they're talking about.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but as long they get a good sounding story they dont care
[13:24] CB Axel: Yes, Hope, but his study still had to be replicated by others.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as long they make money from it
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): from
[13:25] herman Bergson: and the term "BAD" is questionable.....
[13:25] herman Bergson: biased to some extend for instance
[13:25] CB Axel nods
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:25] Hope (naskiff): I don't know, somehow even thought it should have been replicated, this myth lasted for a long time.
[13:26] herman Bergson: it is our culture that does not accept that we die younger because of consuming too much fat....
[13:26] herman Bergson: it is not nature we just die one day or another...
[13:26] herman Bergson: there is no value judgement like....too early.....
[13:26] CB Axel: I'd rather die young eating food I like than live forever eating foods I hate.
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's the fat against the sugar industry
[13:27] herman Bergson: Me too CB...:-)
[13:27] CB Axel: Both in moderation, Beertje. °͜°
[13:27] herman Bergson: Bet MeToo ever :-))
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:27] herman Bergson: Best
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:27] Hope (naskiff): I think you can use different scopes.  You can question whether eating fat is bad, or whether eating fat is bad for your health.
13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its how much fat and what fat, there are different ones
[13:28] Hope (naskiff): I think the argument was that it's bad for your health...  and it was very untrue
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): saturated fats are in general less healthy
[13:28] Hope (naskiff): That's a possiblity, not a certainty, Bejiita. ^^
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and synthetic trans fats are poison for sure, clog the veins like old lube grease
[13:28] herman Bergson: Ok we can have a fat discussion about this issue...
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its those we need to stay away fropm
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not all fats
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahahah
[13:29] herman Bergson: but what I want you to know is that you find this kind of discussion already in 1914
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (brings out my grease gun and aims ar Herman)
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MUHAAHHA
[13:29] herman Bergson: that is resounds in post modern philosophies...
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:30] herman Bergson: That seemed we inherited it from the 20th century
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:30] herman Bergson: One interesting observation.....
[13:30] Hope (naskiff): About the truths, I think we have universal truths...  if I throw a rock and say I've just thrown a rock, that's a truth.  But most people seem to have a looser standard for what is truth.
[13:30] CB Axel: I bet this kind of discussion took place before 1914. I'm sure there were arguments like this when Copernicus said the Earth revolves around the Sun.
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I see  my friend is approaching, need to head out now and meet him
[13:31] herman Bergson: Neither the Stanford Encyclopedia nor the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy have an article  on Spengler
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:31] CB Axel: Have fun, Bejiita!
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why is that Herman?
[13:32] Hope (naskiff): Take care Bejiita. :)
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu around
[13:32] herman Bergson: Because Spengler isn't regarded to be a serious philosopher
[13:32] herman Bergson: I guess
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok¨
[13:32] bergfrau Apfelbaum: have fun playing! and good luck :-)
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu
[13:32] herman Bergson: Good Luck Bejiita!
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: enjoy bejiita
[13:33] Hope (naskiff): I agree with CB that is was probably a topic for much longer than this, and it's just not attributed to anyone
[13:33] herman Bergson: And that rock throwing of yours, Hope.....they would argue that tat is just scientific knowledge....only true in the realm of science
[13:34] herman Bergson: a post modernist would probably respond to you like that
[13:35] CB Axel: Not if you hit him in the head with that rock.
[13:35] Hope (naskiff): Okay... ^^  I never heard "only true in the realm of science" before...
[13:35] herman Bergson: The big question The Decline of the West a serious treatise of bogus.....
[13:36] Hope (naskiff): Your idea of decline of the West seems much different from what I'm used to.
[13:36] Hope (naskiff): I would think the danger of a decline has more to do with the weaknening of the western population.
[13:36] herman Bergson: Well...a lot of people find it a work of a genius...
[13:37] Hope (naskiff): I don't really put much stock in consensus in general.
[13:37] herman Bergson: The more I study on it the more I like to question this view
[13:37] Hope (naskiff): So what is the decline of the West to you?
[13:38] herman Bergson: I'll save that for the next lecture Hope ^_^
[13:38] Hope (naskiff): aw...
[13:38] Hope (naskiff): I hope it's about more things than just Trump. :P  He has more important things to do than being truthful all the time.
[13:39] herman Bergson: Guess it is a nice moment to end this discussion with this clif hanger ^_^
[13:39] CB Axel: Those golf balls won't hit themselves.
[13:39] herman Bergson: It wont be about Mr. Trump at all , Hope...I promise :-)
[13:39] CB Axel: Yay!
[13:39] Hope (naskiff): Sure. :P  The economy also won't get better by itself.
[13:40] CB Axel: He doesn't care about the nation's economy. He only cares about his personal wealth.
[13:40] herman Bergson: Well...thank you all again for your participation....:-)
[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman and Class! very interesting
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:40] Hope (naskiff): If he gets richer by making the country richer and giving Blacks and Latinos the lowest unemployment rate in a long time, that's a win-win. ^^
[13:40] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:40] herman Bergson: But feel free to continue the discussion :-)
[13:41] CB Axel: Thank you, everyone. See you Thursday.
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: have a  good one