Thursday, September 26, 2019

799: The Amazing 1960s....

Historically the period 1960 -1970 looks like a period of liberation in many respects.
To begin with the small matters like the liberation of the male hair style. Everything became acceptable, long hair short hair.
I have no idea what the legacy of that liberation is, except that these days even the chemo look has become popular among men. Shorter than short.
We saw the women's liberation, the sexual liberation and a wave of feminism.
In the US we saw the Civil Rights Act of 1964. It is a landmark of civil rights and labor law in the United States 
that outlaws discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. 
It prohibits unequal application of voter registration requirements, and racial segregation in schools, employment, and public accommodations. 
Furthermore there is an intense debate on equal rights and equal chances for everyone going on in those days.
Due to the development of the television you also see a kind of liberation of information. Everything can be revealed on television.
It was the time of futurology, fantasizing about the future in a (pseudo) scientific way. In 1964 the French social scientist Bertrand de Jouvenel published 
L’Art de la conjecture (The Art of Conjecture), in which he offered a systematic philosophical rationale for the field. 
The following year the American Academy of Arts and Sciences formed its Commission on the Year 2000 “to anticipate social patterns, 
to design new institutions, and to propose alternative programs”; the commission’s 1967 report constituted the first wide-ranging futurological study in the United States.
The field was brought to wide popular attention in 1972 when Dennis Meadows and colleagues at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology published The Limits to Growth, 
based on a study commissioned by the Club of Rome, an international assembly of business leaders. 
This report focused on hypotheses derived from a computer model of the interaction of various global socioeconomic trends; 
it projected a Malthusian vision in which the collapse of world order would result if population growth, industrial expansion, 
and increased pollution, combined with insufficient food production and the depletion of natural resources, were to continue at current rates. 
To offset these trends, the report called for “a Copernican revolution of the mind,” to reevaluate the belief in endless growth and the tacit acceptance of wastefulness.
By the way, a Mathusian vision means the idea that population growth is potentially exponential while the growth of the food supply is linear. 
It derives from the political and economic thought of the Reverend Thomas Robert Malthus, as laid out in his 1798 writings, An Essay on the Principle of Population. 
And here we are in the 21st century and what did futurologists and The Club of Rome predict? 
The only thing I know is that they want us to believe that we have to deal with the CO2 output. Do you really believe that will save this planet?
Thank you for your attention again...

Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Peter Watson: A Terrible Beauty (2000)

The Discussion

[13:16] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:16] oola Neruda: C02 is a major issue but not the only one
[13:17] herman Bergson: Indeed oola
[13:17] herman Bergson: But they want us to believe that THAT usis the big issue at the moment
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:17] oola Neruda: and it is true that expanding population is MAJOR
[13:17] PearlsOh: yes, I think they do,
[13:18] PearlsOh: I think it is more about making money
[13:18] herman Bergson: `Yes PearlOh...I agree....
[13:18] oola Neruda: there is a book .... OIL, POWER, WAR
[13:19] herman Bergson: There are many patient books oola...yes
[13:19] oola Neruda: the author says that oil (money) has been at the root of all the denial
[13:19] herman Bergson: but the politicians...they don't seem to read books
[13:19] oola Neruda: that now, even, our foreign intentions are decided by OIL
[13:20] oola Neruda: starting with Bush... and baby bush
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): problem is that in for ex US a roaring V( consuming 10 gallons a mile is status, that electric cars can be way more powerful they ignore. WHERE IS THE NOISE!?
[13:20] oola Neruda: even before that, actually
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): V8
[13:21] PearlsOh: the problem is they've made us stupid and tired enough to be carried along in this scam
[13:21] herman Bergson: I'am not stupid, PearlOh ^_^
[13:21] oola Neruda: foreign policy being carved out by oil interests
[13:22] PearlsOh: me either, but the chase for prestige and v8's and so on runs our planet
[13:22] herman Bergson: oil will loose its power in the coming decades...
[13:22] oola Neruda: it already has
[13:22] herman Bergson: when wind and solar energy will take over it might be the end of th eMiddle East
[13:23] oola Neruda: sorry
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the greedy oil companies will resist
[13:23] oola Neruda: read that are correct
[13:23] herman Bergson: and its global power
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they just have to adapt
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to development
[13:23] herman Bergson: They just lose their income Bejiita...
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:24] herman Bergson: What alternative have these desert counrties to offer?
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the sun
[13:24] herman Bergson: Indeed Beertje...clever observation :-)
[13:25] herman Bergson: they might gonna export electricity..
[13:25] oola Neruda: Pompeao ssys that Arctic Melting is will open a new route for trade with the orient
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (sighs)
[13:25] CB Axel: That's because all Pompeo and the others care about is money.
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): greed rules as usual
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even if we all die
[13:26] oola Neruda: YES....MONEY IS THE GOD
[13:26] CB Axel: I hope he drowns while he's counting his money.
[13:26] PearlsOh: solar and all that won't take over though, instead we will pay more for electricity and hav eless of it
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agrees
[13:26] herman Bergson: What do you mean PearlOh?
[13:27] herman Bergson: Seems we are a bunch of classic futurologists ourselves today ^_
[13:27] PearlsOh: Well I think the main aim is to control us, they won't let u shave these things like cheaper electricity or if they do they'll come with some burden.
[13:27] PearlsOh: it is about controlling us
[13:28] PearlsOh: us have - not u shave
[13:28] oola Neruda: TO BE DEPENDANT ON OIL
[13:28] PearlsOh: in all sorts of ways
[13:28] herman Bergson: Who wants to control us?
[13:28] herman Bergson: Who  are they?
[13:28] PearlsOh: lol
[13:28] oola Neruda: THE ONES MAKING THE MONEY
[13:29] PearlsOh: people who put us in jail for speaking out, people who profit off our weakness
[13:29] herman Bergson: Still answers the question who are they and who are we.....
[13:29] PearlsOh: u get banned if you say, I call them "them:
[13:30] CB Axel: Banned from where?
[13:30] oola Neruda: this is why we need change in funding of politics.....
[13:30] PearlsOh: every where
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): were do you live PearlOh?
[13:31] CB Axel: Whisper it to me and I'll say it. I'm not afraid. :)
[13:31] herman Bergson: Interesting question within this context Beertje :-)
[13:32] herman Bergson: One thing is true at least....the futurologists were most of the time wrong in their predictions
[13:32] herman Bergson: The `Club of Rome predicted that oil would be depleted by now....didnt happen
[13:33] CB Axel: It will be depleted some day.
[13:33] herman Bergson: Yet I bought a copy of the report in those days and was worried
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes CB..and it will be replaced by wind and solar panels, I guess
[13:34] CB Axel: The US will continue to use coal and natural gas, too.
[13:34] oola Neruda: they; will also consider nuclear well
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): fusion power would be nice to and some of these new thorium reactors
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): clean electricity for everyone
[13:34] oola Neruda: yes
[13:35] herman Bergson: ahh...good idea Bejiita ^_^
[13:35] CB Axel: I just heard someone on the radio saying she thinks we'll need nuclear power.
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): esp now when they build datacenter after datacenter everywhere
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to satisfy our Netflix binge watching ad similar
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:35] herman Bergson: yes yes....we have become just data :-)
[13:35] oola Neruda: nods
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well thats also true
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it seems
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe we should use less power than we do now
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): numbers in a database
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well wasting power is always bad
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): read a book, use a broom :)
[13:36] oola Neruda: read OIL, POWER, WAR
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:36] herman Bergson: But look at the 1960-1970....where we loved this techno development....and look at our situation today....
[13:37] PearlsOh: yeh it's effed up
[13:37] PearlsOh: it was sold to us
[13:37] herman Bergson: I find it amazing....
[13:38] herman Bergson: television developed into Internet which developed into Facebook and Instagram....
[13:38] oola Neruda: read MERCHANTS OF DOUBT
[13:38] PearlsOh: most people probably didn't read that paper, they just got a fetish for technology off movies
[13:38] herman Bergson: futurologist did.....they predicted only technological developments....
[13:39] herman Bergson: had no eye for human behavior
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:39] oola Neruda: AGAIN...MONEY
[13:39] herman Bergson: if we had to believe them we now would have flying cars
[13:40] oola Neruda: rev everyone up to spend
[13:40] oola Neruda: make promises
[13:40] PearlsOh: well I think technology aims to erase human behavior, if you know what I mean.. our foibles get in the way of profit & power
[13:41] herman Bergson: Sorry PearlOh...but that cant be needs human behavior in buying technology...otherwise it has no meaning :-)
[13:41] oola Neruda: manipulate it
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and if we stopped using money and technology to finance weapons and war technology we would had colonized mars 10 years ago but we are so focused on bowing each other up instead
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): blowing
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then there is no cost limit on bombs and weaponry in general
[13:42] oola Neruda: amen Particle
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eve the microwave is a war invention
[13:42] herman Bergson: Bejiita..please..:-)
[13:42] PearlsOh: Herman - yes, but why would a natural animal, a human in his natural state, buy a useless thing like a mobile phone, which makes him lazy, makes him overly busy and stressed.. this is engineered behavior with advertising
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): NASA should have had all that financing
[13:43] herman Bergson: lol..I don't use my microwave as a weapon :-)
[13:43] CB Axel: I don't consider a mobile phone useless. It's just a phone.
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no but it was a discovery fro microwave radar to track planes and shoot them down and suddenly he felt a chocolate bar melt in his pocket and boom the microwave oven was born
[13:44] PearlsOh: well junk food then
[13:44] PearlsOh: all of this crap they are pushing at us
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes PearlOh...That is what Skinner also observed.....cultural changes are related to behavioral changes
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm the first microwave foods at least was far from healthy, full of saturated fats and other toxic stuff
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you don't have to buy junkfood if you don't want to
[13:45] herman Bergson: I find th euse of iPhones and the like really absurd...
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bettr now though, at least what i eat
[13:45] PearlsOh: I know but so many people do and why do they, it is obviously bad for people
[13:45] PearlsOh: What makes them buy it
[13:45] PearlsOh: we coudl have steered ourselves in so many better directions
[13:45] herman Bergson: just go to a railway platform...90% of the people are staring at their smartphone....
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well staring into instagram like zombies while falling into manholes and fountains are more common today indeed
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we still have a choice
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least i think we have
[13:47] herman Bergson: ok..our legacy of the 20thy century :-)
[13:47] Ladyy Haven (ladyy.haven) is offline.
[13:47] CB Axel: Herman, before there were smartphones and tablets, the people on the platform were staring at their newspapers. Nothing has changed.
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a mixed blend
[13:47] Ladyy Haven (ladyy.haven) is online.
[13:47] herman Bergson smiles
[13:47] herman Bergson: good point CB :-)
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but at least they did not read the papers while walking and bumping and falling into everyone and everything
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like they do now
[13:48] herman Bergson: that must ne Swedens Bejiita :-)
[13:48] PearlsOh: When newspapers were around though, people were still a lo tmore social, there wasn't the problem of families sitting to dinner and all getting stuck on phones & facebook
[13:48] CB Axel: I don't know about that. Some did.
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahah
[13:48] oola Neruda: at least there were reporters and publishers with dedication to freedom of the press.... and being accountable for what they report
[13:48] oola Neruda: now we have fox news
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes the social part too, sitting next to each other and just staring into the mobile
[13:49] CB Axel: That's true, oola.
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sometimes i call it asocial media
[13:49] herman Bergson: My goodness Fox news...
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS!
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...looks like it indeed often
[13:49] oola Neruda: real journalists have standards
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agree
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they should have for sure
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very important
[13:50] PearlsOh: there's aren't really any sides, left news is as much of a piece of crap as right news, they are just hosting the fight they want us to be distracted by
[13:50] herman Bergson: Well, my freinds, I guess we have saved the world another time again :-)
[13:50] oola Neruda: they can be sued if they are wrong...
[13:51] CB Axel: Real parents have standards, too, and won't let kids stare at their phones at the dinner table any more than they let them stare at books, magazines, and newspapers.
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they write bogus untrue stuff just to sell
[13:51] oola Neruda: notice trump hasn't sued any of the publications....
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): instead of facts
[13:51] PearlsOh: true CB on parents
[13:51] oola Neruda: or bogus sleasy stuff to catch the sleezy minds
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the ones publishing real facts are what Trump call fake when its the opposite way around including him
[13:51] CB Axel: Good point, oola. He's usually not afraid to sue people.
[13:51] CB Axel: I guess he knows when he's not going to win.
[13:52] oola Neruda: lol
[13:52] CB Axel: Maybe he can recognize the truth.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Trump?
[13:52] herman Bergson: Ok...the word T`rump has shown up....time to end our discussion :-)
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:53] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation.....:-)
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well at least this was some very giving facts
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and very true
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman - thanx all
[13:53] herman Bergson: Time to trump out...:-)
[13:53] PearlsOh: Thanks for holding this Herman
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): before w get trumped
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:53] herman Bergson: c.q... class dismissed ^_^
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:53] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

Tuesday, September 24, 2019

798: Freedom an equal chances....

The 1960s and 1970s showed a great interest in concepts like self realization, freedom, equality, equal chances, liberation.
The opposite was the case in the communist countries like the Soviet Union and China in those years.
The emphasis in the US and Europe was on creating equal chances, creating socio-economical equality.
In the US president Johnson had started his Great Society project. One of the problems the project had to solve was presented in 1966 in the report "Equality in Educational Opportunity" by James Coleman and others.
Much attention was paid to the differences in performance between black and white students.
An important topic in those years was education, the idea that blacks and other minorities in disadvantaged positions should be given access to better education, 
that equality of educational opportunities was the most important thing in a society where freedom was equal to freedom from ignorance, 
where the democratic idea of honesty and individualism meant that men and women had to get a fair start to life and that they were then left alone to make something of their lives.
Besides philosophy I also studied educational theory in the early 1970s and equal chances in education was a hot topic then.
In the Netherlands it wasn't white versus black but lower class versus middle/upper class children and their chances in education.
The basic idea was, that we all should have the freedom as an individual to become who we are, to develop our talents. That was the elan of those years.
The name that can be related to this theme is Isaiah Berlin (1909 – 1997), a Russian, later British social and political theorist, philosopher and historian of ideas.
In the book "Four Essays on Liberty" (1969) he tried to define freedom and defined the concepts of positive freedom and negative freedom, the freedom to develop ourselves as individuals.

The one conception of freedom is about the political significance of negative freedom. That is the freedom to act without the intervention of others, e.g. government. 
The negative freedom is greater as there is less interference in my affairs by others. The negative freedom is therefore a freedom OF.... 
That sounds good but it will be clear that absolute negative freedom can probably only exist for the lonely inhabitant of an otherwise uninhabited island, a Robinson Crusoe. 
This the freedom of a person will have to be restricted every now and then to guarantee the freedom of others. 
Absolute negative freedom will be impossible. The key question then is what is the minimum of personal freedom that we must maintain if we do not want to deny ourselves.

The opposite of negative freedom is positive freedom, the freedom TO, the freedom to do something. 
It is about the desire of an individual to master himself. You can then pursue your own goals and shape your life the way you want.
Where has this pursuit of freedom gone in our time? Where is the social commitment? Has it been translated into our obsession with privacy in this Internet world?
Thank you for your attention again....

The Discussion

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Heerman
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:18] herman Bergson: I have the feeling that this whole social commitment and call for equal chances for everybody has disappeared
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well it has quieted
[13:19] herman Bergson: and that it is replaced by the discussion on economic positions
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wil you explain that to us?
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not disappeared i think
[13:19] CB Axel: I think people have given up.
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I dont
[13:19] CB Axel: People what their own freedoms even if it means taking freedom away from others.
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): look at the teachers strikes in USA this summer
[13:19] herman Bergson: in the 60-70s we as students were politically active and involved....we wanted to elevate the masses :-)
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the one going on now
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): 47000 workers
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Ryanair strikes now too i think
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): off the job!!!
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they have hope
[13:20] herman Bergson: teachers on strike gemma?
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no these are auto workers
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): last spring was the teachers
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in three states
[13:21] CB Axel: strike
[13:21] CB Axel: Teachers somewhere in the country every year it seems.
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and they won!!!!
[13:21] CB Axel: Not that they shouldn't. They really should.
[13:21] herman Bergson: what was their complaint?
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:21] CB Axel: Low pay and large class sizes usually.
[13:21] herman Bergson: in the Netherlands the very same complaints!
[13:22] CB Axel: It's ridiculous for a teacher to have a class of more than about 20 students, imo.
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): low pay but also the fact that funds for education in their areas was way inadequate
[13:22] CB Axel: It's hard on the teacher and the kids don't get enough individual attention.
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): were able to force the boards ot rund more
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): funnd
[13:22] herman Bergson: All the government money goes to the industry...the social sector is greatly neglected and underpaid
[13:22] CB Axel: Right, Gemma.
[13:22] CB Axel: And the military, Herman.
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now the car people are out and it is not just pay it is also for the temporary workers they hire instead and dont pay well at all
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and never put them on as full time iwth benefits
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, they just use them
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so the aspect of freedom is here
[13:23] CB Axel nods
[13:23] herman Bergson: Not here....we should spend 2% on the military according to NATO rules, but it is 1.3% now
[13:23] CB Axel: I was one of those workers at the University of Iowa.
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i believe that the idea of freedom is still alive here too
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the activities of the kids even
[13:24] herman Bergson: the whole story of creating extra opportunities in education for the lower class (or black) children has disappeared
[13:25] CB Axel: In the US the military takes about 20% of the budget from what I've read.
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well no
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right and then you know who grabs some of that money for his wall
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tsk
[13:25] CB Axel nods
[13:25] herman Bergson: What a waste
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:26] CB Axel: Trump is a waste of space.
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is a fight tho for money for education in some states
[13:26] CB Axel: Anyway, there's a great video about privilege that you might like. I can't remember if we watched that here or not.
[13:26] CB Axel:
[13:27] CB Axel: For when you have time.
[13:27] herman Bergson: Whose privileges CB?
[13:27] CB Axel: White privilege mostly.
[13:27] CB Axel: Middle and upper class privilege, too.
[13:27] herman Bergson: Interesting....
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wil watch that
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki
[13:28] herman Bergson: We have the same problems here in the Netherlands
[13:28] CB Axel: Watch it later. It's only about 4 minutes long.
[13:28] herman Bergson: Not enough money for education
[13:28] herman Bergson: Multinationals that evade taxes
[13:29] CB Axel: Where do those businesses think they're going to get workers if children don't get a good education?
[13:29] herman Bergson: No word about the less privileged in our society
[13:30] CB Axel: Conservatives say you shouldn't have an abortion because what if you abort the next Einstein? Well, that kid will never be an Einstein if it isn't educated.
[13:30] herman Bergson: The whole narrative  with people like Marcuse, Adorno, Habermas has died
[13:30] CB Axel: Better to not be born that to be born to parents who don't want you and can't get you fed and educated properly. :(
[13:30] CB Axel: *than to be born
[13:31] herman Bergson: indeed CB
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well i still see glimmer of social commitment
[13:31] CB Axel: In some people, Gemma.
[13:31] herman Bergson: You do, Gemma? :-)
[13:31] CB Axel: But not the people in charge.
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yesterday a little girl went before congress begging them to pay attention to climate change
[13:32] herman Bergson: Was it the Swedish girl?
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tomorrow is a huge country wide walk of of school kids o that
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no usa girl
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok
[13:32] herman Bergson: We had these school kids walks too recently
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its spreading
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): isnt that what we were missing coming back??
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bit by bit?
[13:33] CB Axel: I thought she was Swedish.
[13:33] CB Axel: Didn't she sail across the Atlantic.
[13:33] herman Bergson: It may apply to Europe and the USA, but what about India, Russia and China...South America?
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: oh??
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i might have missed that
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes that swedish girl sailed across the Atlantic to the US
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah ok!!
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): rigth i remember
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Greta?
[13:34] CB Axel: Greta Thunberg
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good for her
[13:34] CB Axel: She was awesome. :)
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): she have started a movement i think now
[13:35] CB Axel: Yay Sweden. :)
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thas going to spread
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:35] CB Axel:
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: Education is no longer the primary topic these days....
[13:36] herman Bergson: Maybe climate change is
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): education costing was too much in loans to the kids is a biggie right now tho
[13:37] CB Axel: In the US health care and climate change are the too biggest topics.
[13:37] CB Axel: Two
[13:37] CB Axel: Jeesh, I can't type today.
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes we still have health care  issue!!!!!!!
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes GEmma here too, those loanes and huge debts students have
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): biggie
[13:38] CB Axel: But too many people have what I call a "I got mine" attitude.
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): big time
[13:38] CB Axel: Why should I worry about education, my kids' schools are good.
[13:38] herman Bergson: I got mine?
[13:39] CB Axel: Why should I worry about health insurance, I have good insurance.
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): selfish attitude
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i got mine so i don't give a shit about others!
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that attitude
[13:39] herman Bergson: ahh..
[13:39] CB Axel: Why should I worry about climate change, I don't live near the ocean.
[13:39] CB Axel: Exactly, Bejiita.
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is why is see this huge auto strike as important
[13:39] CB Axel: You got it.
[[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): people willing to sacrifice for theccommon good
[13:40] herman Bergson: Social cohesion....
[13:40] CB Axel: Yes. The workers sacrificed when GM was in financial trouble, and now then the company is doing well again they're being ignored.
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct
[13:40] CB Axel: *when the company
[13:40] herman Bergson: That is exactly the problem of today......
[13:41] CB Axel: Jeesh! What's wrong with my typing and grammar today? LOL
[13:41] herman Bergson: there is plenty of money but where does it go?
[13:41] CB Axel: No wonder dragons just breathe fire.
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (runs Debug on CB)
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): workers are beginning to take action-on the companies that are not inputting in spite of huge profits
[13:41] CB Axel: Not to the people who do the work of the company, Herman.
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the shareholders
[13:41] herman Bergson: Thay had that idiotic idea of a Trickle down effect in the economy
[13:41] CB Axel: Thanks, Bejiita.
[13:42] herman Bergson: Exacly Gemma....
[13:42] CB Axel: I never believed in trickle down.
[13:42] herman Bergson: All trickled in the pockets of shareholders
[13:42] CB Axel: No, it gushed into their pockets!
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the shareholders and CEO take it all and buy new luxury cars and bathe in champagne while they treat the workers as slaves more or less
[13:42] herman Bergson: A complete nonsense idea in a world governed by greed
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sad reality of these big companies
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:43] herman Bergson: They have lost sight on their social obligations
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): never were too good at it
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they have theirs so
[13:43] CB Axel: I don't think they ever had their sights on social obligations.
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and they just want MORE MORE MOOOOR!
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): E
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the issue
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): starbucks was ... they had benefits for workers from the beginning
[13:44] CB Axel nods
[13:44] herman Bergson: But the general attitude seems to be changing....neo-liberalism isn't the holy grail anymore
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes
[13:45] herman Bergson: So maybe we should get back that elan of the 1960s and 1970s again
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also I think that in for ex a manufacturing company a large potion of the profit should go back in investing in better equipment, machinery ect to be able to make even better products
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hopes it is coming
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): slowly
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like for ex now we bought na new forklift at our company
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): forklift
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): after watching all these dictators around the world
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh and Hong Kong too
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): huge demos against possible taking of freedoms
[13:47] herman Bergson: Protests of the masses may have effect
[13:47] herman Bergson: I found it amazing...the persistence of the people
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so?
[13:48] herman Bergson: maybe in that sense our freedom has increased.....
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): little glimmers of hope
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully yes
[13:48] CB Axel: Hong Kong had so many rights that other Chinese didn't have. I wondered how things would work out for them when China took over.
[13:48] herman Bergson: the masses don't accept repression that easy anymore
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:49] herman Bergson: We''ll see how this will show in 2020 in the US :-))
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg omg omg
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): fingers crossed
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa
[13:49] CONNIE Eichel is online.
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): at last it is only one year + away for the vote
[13:50] herman Bergson: ok....time to keep our fingers crossed for  a while
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): time for me to walk the plank if im not getting to the pirate party soon!
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:50] herman Bergson: Then let me thank you for doing so and participating here again ^_^
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): fishing contest for me
[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed .....

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time

Thursday, September 19, 2019

797: The liberation of women....

Pretty cool....I am from 1949 and 70 now ^_^ and Germaine Greer is from 1939 and 80 now. Total nonsense information of course but I love the numbers.
In 1970 she published "The Female Eunuch" and I was wondering what I recall of that, for the book hit a nerve!
1970 I was just married then and I saw the publicity concerning Germaine Greer, but her message didn't penetrate my skull, I guess.
There was something wrong with the relation between man and woman, was her message apparently,
but that message didn't seem to reach me. Maybe because the kitchen was and still is my domain.....I do the cooking every day and I am not single :-)
When we look at the 20th century and its legacy regarding racism, we only can conclude that we inherited just all the shit. You just need the right president to open the can.
In that respect the 20th century has a much better legacy with respect to women. There are two aspects to this issue:
you can plead for the liberation of women from suppression by men and you can plead for the equality between man and woman in society and you can plead for both, of course.
Germaine Greer is a liberation rather than equality feminist. Her goal is not equality with men, 
which she sees as assimilation and "agreeing to live the lives of unfree men". 
"Women's liberation", she wrote in The Whole Woman (1999), "did not see the female's potential in terms of the male's actual." 
She argues instead that liberation is about asserting difference and "insisting on it as a condition of self-definition and self-determination".
Germaine Greer drew attention by commenting on the missionary position in bed in the magazine "Suck".
She found that women had more control and enjoyment if they were on the man during the intercourse. 
In her book "The Female Eunuch" (1970) she does not completely ignore the economic position of women, but she devotes only one of the 30 chapters to works. 
The book derives its strength from the determined way in which Greer investigates how women, love and marriage are portrayed in both the serious and popular novel and in current beliefs.
She showed how in literature and popular novels men are portrayed as dominant, socially superior and as older, richer and longer than their female partner.
As a Dutchman, I can't leave our own "Germaine Greer' unmentioned. Her name is Anja Meulenbelt, born in 1945, four years older than I, that is 74 :-)
She published "De Schaamte Voorbij" in 1976, translated in English as "The Shame is Over" and also in German, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Danish, Greek, Slovenian, Turkish and Serbian.

"De Schaamte Voorbij" was an inspired book. And more a handbook for a feminist life, based on, as the cover said, "a personal history." 
Anja Meulenbelt wrote 'for other women', to offer recognition, telling them that they were not alone, as she had long thought they were alone. That was evident from her life story.
There were many more female feminist authors with their stories and ideas since 1970 and they achieved something for the 21st century:
the liberation of the woman and a striving for equality between men and women. We're still not there, but it is high on the agenda like you have seen in the #MeToo action.
Thank you for your attention again...
additional info:
The Discussion

[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[13:18] herman Bergson: Yet it is sad to see,, that the emancipation of women is just w Western phenomenon....
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's not in then US?
[13:19] herman Bergson: The US belongs to the Western culture
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok, sorry
[13:20] herman Bergson: But you might be right nevertheless Beertje ^_^
[13:21] herman Bergson: Nobody has any thoughts about the present state of women emancipation?
[13:21] Al Michigan: yes  i have
[13:21] herman Bergson: Tell us, Al
[13:21] Al Michigan: ok
[13:23] herman Bergson: Keep it short Al
[13:23] Al Michigan: i thought like:  women and men are now at once forced to  find another way of finding value in their live, that is not so easy. the liberation, off the old  is fun , but what do we do the next day? and what about men, they also  need to  find another way to  find a fulfilling  life if it is not fighting for an income for a family
[13:24] CB Axel: I agree.
[13:24] CB Axel: Men need to redefine their roles in a relationship.
[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes....
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:24] Al Michigan: even having one is noiw up to  debate!
[13:24] CB Axel: Women don't need men to protect them and provide for them.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): more equality
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wich is not easy Im suppose for them
[13:25] herman Bergson: Just watch two or thee episodes of "Father Knows Best" will drive you crazy :-)
[13:25] Al Michigan: what you mean?
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i did see it last week
[13:25] CB Axel: We never actually had that. There was never any guarantee that the man would always be there for us.
[13:26] Al Michigan: what is in the series of this father that knows best?
[13:26] CB Axel: Too often as soon as he got bored and a younger, prettier woman came along he'd abandon his wife.
[13:26] herman Bergson: That idea of the man protecting the woman is so un European.....:-)
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): never saw it Al?
[13:26] CB Axel: That's why women quit depending on men.
[13:26] Al Michigan: no
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's on youtube
[13:27] Al Michigan: lemme see
[13:27] herman Bergson: That series started in 1948  and shows the American Dream Family....
[13:28] herman Bergson: I never had the feeling that I should protect my wife...
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is that the dream family CB?
[13:28] herman Bergson: She is quite capable of handling situations herself
[13:28] CB Axel: More of a nightmare to me!
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles
[13:29] CB Axel: I never understood why a woman was supposed to be nothing but a wife and mother.
[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes that family is a nightmare form our perspective
[13:29] CB Axel: Men didn't have to work in whatever job his father did. He could choose any profession he wanted.
[13:29] Al Michigan: these shows are like telling a moral but at the same time they  make a fool off the man to not make it to much off propaganda, and also  times were changing, the man was no longer the  local tyrant in the 50s
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm i saw a bit of it and indeed yes
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): did not want it all though, got to sleepy and forgot about it
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was late
[13:30] CB Axel: Yet, women were supposed to be wives and mothers whether they had an aptitude for that job or not.
[13:30] Al Michigan: the fathers between the war they were like total tyrants if you ask me
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): chained to the stove
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:30] CB Axel: I would have  been a terrible mother. I don't like children. They're boring.
[13:30] Al Michigan: like between 1918 and 1940
[13:30] CB Axel: But that was the only job I was supposed to do?
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes Al
[13:31] CB Axel: Fuck that shit (pardon my language).
[13:31] herman Bergson: at least the position of the woman has changed now
[13:31] Al Michigan: but the position of the man as well
[13:32] CB Axel: Yes. We can now have other jobs, but at less pay.
[13:32] herman Bergson: That is what Greer and others did for us
[13:32] Al Michigan: yes men has now to work the same, but for half the money
[13:32] CB Axel: We still can't count on a man sticking around to help with a house and children.
[13:32] herman Bergson: A logical consequence, Al
[13:33] Al Michigan: yeah but the women working work just as hard as a man, and also  get just 50%
[13:33] herman Bergson: Are American men so unreliable, CB? :-)
[13:33] CB Axel: We have a 50% divorce rate.
[13:33] herman Bergson: They get 70%, Al :-)
[13:33] Al Michigan: 70% of what,
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if u do a work u should get equally paid for that work
[13:34] Al Michigan: incomes halved
[13:34] herman Bergson: Of the male salary
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the only fair thing
[13:34] herman Bergson: for the same job
[13:34] CB Axel: Herman is right. Women get more than 50% of a man's pay, but not 100%.
[13:34] Al Michigan: sure but if you do  that, both still make just 50% for that money as the job paid before the liberation
[13:34] CB Axel: 70% is about right.
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): 100% should be payed to the same job'
[13:35] Al Michigan: but a man is always 100 % at his job, right? women have periods!
[13:35] herman Bergson: So there is the issue of liberation and the issue of equality....
[13:35] CB Axel: I worked during my period. What the fuck does that have to do with it?
[13:35] herman Bergson: Equality has not yet been achieved.....liberation...?
[13:36] Al Michigan: some how it seems as iff liberation is tried to achieve by opressing pale men
[13:36] herman Bergson: lol...Al....
[13:36] CB Axel: No. We're not oppressing men. We're just taking back what we should have had all along.
[13:37] Al Michigan: so,... that seems fine to me!
[13:37] herman Bergson: If they use periods as argument they should be oppressed indeed, Al :-)))
[13:37] Al Michigan: but what is all along?
[13:37] Al Michigan: since the 60's?
[13:37] CB Axel: Since men began oppressing women. since forever.
[13:38] Al Michigan: but see, men and women worked together in the past,  they needed the kids, for an old age provision, and men worked their ass off, and so  did women, and together they  fought like hell to get this job done.
[13:39] CB Axel: Back when we lived in caves and physical strength was needed to hunt and protect the home that worked.
[13:39] herman Bergson: true if you mean life as it was 20.000 years ago
[13:39] Max Chatnoir is offline.
[13:39] CB Axel: But we don't need men to protect us any more.
[13:40] Al Michigan: i did not speak about 20.000 years back i  speak about the period between 1500 and 1914
[13:40] CB Axel: Men are just as able to take care of children and cook and clean.
[13:40] CB Axel: Women are just as able to work outside of the home.
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:40] herman Bergson: that was possible in 1500 :-)
[13:40] herman Bergson: and thereafter
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its as usual about power and that men are afraid to loose it
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): macho culture and other shit
[13:41] CB Axel: I think you're right, Bejiita.
[13:41] herman Bergson: Might be true, Bejiita, but why do men cherish that power so much?
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no idea
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): is it genetic?
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or something else?
[13:42] Al Michigan: maybe it is because cannot have a baby?
[13:42] herman Bergson: Maybe biological....
[13:42] CB Axel: Women don't need men around to do things for us any more. So now men have to be the kind of person we want to have around, not the kind we need to have around.
[13:42] Al Michigan: maybe it s because it is very hard to  work?
[13:43] CB Axel: I work. Yes, it's hard, but it doesn't take a man to do it.
[13:43] Al Michigan: yeah but ppl in the past were fixed with each other,  put together, they didn't choose!!!!!
[13:43] herman Bergson: The difference in physical strength is an issue, indeed
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in swedish work = jobs and tiring/exhausting = jobbig so
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe a connection there
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:44] Al Michigan: the fysical strength off a man is like a lot in short  time spans, like in minutes or seconds, women's power is like an enduring one, where a man has to stop  and have a sig, a women can go on and on and on.
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bot some jobs are jobbig for sure
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:44] Al Michigan: in poland women were doing the job of unloading ships.
[13:45] Al Michigan: in my humble opinion, the women was with her babay on her tit, so a man was to  be around and do the fields,  it s more them likely it was the female that went hunting afterwards.
[13:45] Al Michigan: but that s 20,000 years ago
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki i have to run to attend a rezzparty
[13:46] CB Axel: Bye, Bejiita.
[13:46] herman Bergson: Ok Bejiita...:-)
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time
[13:46] herman Bergson: Enjoy
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Bejiita'
[13:46] CB Axel: See you Thursday.
[13:46] herman Bergson: Let's conclude with a look at the present situation....
[13:47] herman Bergson: In Western Culture women are getting more and more chances and liberty, to be equal to men in many ways....
[13:47] herman Bergson: the rest of the world still shows a deplorable picture from OUR perspective....
[13:48] Al Michigan: but what will be the motivation off western men to  work as hard as they did in the past?
[13:48] CB Axel: To support themselves.
[13:48] Al Michigan: that all?
[13:49] CB Axel: And maybe they won't work as hard and die young.
[13:49] Al Michigan: that will give no meaning to  life
[13:49] CB Axel: Working yourself to an early grave gives you meaning?
[13:49] Al Michigan: neither will ''earning as much as a man''
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why should woman earn less money?
[13:50] CB Axel: Work toward being the kind of person a woman wants to be around and not one that makes you think she needs you.
[13:50] herman Bergson: Isn't the question of the meaning of life not quite some other chapter?
[13:50] CB Axel: I would rather be loved than needed.
[13:51] Al Michigan: a man want to be needed, he lives by the responsibility on his shoulders.
[13:51] CB Axel: Then get a dog.
[13:51] Al Michigan: and if there aint some, he has no life.
[13:51] herman Bergson: ^_^
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): get a cat
[13:51] herman Bergson: Do I want to be needed???????
[13:52] Al Michigan: i dunno....
[13:52] Al Michigan: i want to be needed
[13:52] Al Michigan: if ppl come to  me for help i  feel i have a place between my ppl
[13:52] CB Axel: Wouldn't you rather have a woman with you because she wants to be there rather than because she's afraid she'll die if you're not there?
[13:52] Al Michigan: i have a craft
[13:52] Al Michigan: and ppl call me to   do my things
[13:52] herman Bergson: I want to make myself useful for my fellowmen...they might like it...but that doesn't mean I am needed
[13:52] Al Michigan: and pay me for that
[13:53] Al Michigan: \sure  sure!
[13:53] CB Axel: And a woman can't have that?
[13:53] Al Michigan: that s is also  tru  mr bergman
[13:53] Al Michigan: sure a woman can have the same  shit as man!
[13:53] Al Michigan: but if you want to live like  a man, you have the shit off a man as well
[13:53] CB Axel: And I don't?
[13:53] CB Axel: I worked for over 30 years as a paramedic.
[13:54] herman Bergson: Guess living like a women includes the same shit :-)
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): who says we don't have that as well Al?
[13:54] Al Michigan: well  the question for a man is: what do i  do it for! while a woman says! look! i  can do it1
[13:54] CB Axel: I worked long hours getting shit and piss and vomit all over me.
[13:54] Al Michigan: yeah that s work in a hospital!
[13:54] CB Axel: No, it was out on the streets.
[13:55] CB Axel: I carried people up and down stairs. I dragged them out of wreaked cars.
[13:55] Al Michigan: there aree men working in the sewers under the streets
[13:56] herman Bergson: Well, I guess we're all in the same shit then, men and women ^_^
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): don't be the victim here Al
[13:56] CB Axel: I worked hard and didn't need some man to help me. But when I went home I wanted someone there I could talk to. Watch a TV show with. Enjoy a nice meal with.
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true CB
[13:56] Al Michigan: how am i a victim?
[13:56] herman Bergson: Yes CB...
[13:57] CB Axel: I didn't want some caveman dragging me by the hair to the kitchen to do what ever he thought I should do.
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a poor man that works very hard..och errum
[13:57] Al Michigan: och erum?
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's dutch
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): poor you
[13:57] Al Michigan: o ja?
[13:58] Al Michigan: yeah but these poor hardworking men, they will dissappear before you can say ocherum for a second time!
[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no
[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why should they
[13:58] CB Axel: And they will be replaced by hard working women. :)
[13:59] herman Bergson: Ok, my friends. I thin k it is time to end our never ending story here...:-)
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they are not ' poor'..they work hard, same as woman do
[13:59] CONNIE Eichel is offline.
[13:59] herman Bergson: Let me thank you all again for your participation :-)
[13:59] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[13:59] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): goodnight:)
[14:00] herman Bergson: But feel free to continue the debate :-)

[14:00] CB Axel: See you all Thursday. :)