Thursday, March 31, 2022

989: The Hypocrite Freedom......

 The Atlantean revolutionaries believed that the liberation of humanity was not possible without a radical reform of their society, leading to greater political and economic equality. 


But their radicalism had its limits. While many eighteenth-century revolutionaries vociferously protested the metaphorical slavery 


to which haughty kings and arrogant patricians subjected them, they owned real slaves themselves and were involved in the slave trade.    


The most egregious example of this was the American colonies, which in 1776 were home to about half a million slaves. 


In Europe itself, slavery was formally banned in many countries, including France. But thousands of slaves lived in France's overseas colonies. 


The Dutch also had slave colonies, most notably the Suriname plantation colony. In addition, their merchant ships played a crucial role in the transatlantic slave trade. 


ln Poland-Lithuania, the status of small farmers resembled that of serfs. For example, by law, Polish peasants were not allowed to move without permission from their “master”. 


The discrepancy between the freedom ideals of the eighteenth-century revolutionaries and the persistence of physical slavery and serfdom in the Atlantic world is not something we are just discovering. 


On the contrary, contemporaries vehemently criticized the revolutionaries for failing to live up to their own ideals. 


"How is it that we hear the loudest wailing for freedom among the negro drivers?" note the British politician Samuel Johnson in 1775. 


Also, John Millar (22 June 1735 – 1801), a Scottish philosopher, historian, and Regius Professor of Civil Law at the University of Glasgow, condemned the American settlers in 1778 for their inconsistency. 


While the Americans spoke excitedly of their "political liberty" and the "inalienable right of mankind," Millar lamented, 


they deprived much of their fellow-creatures of almost every kind of right. Beautiful philosophical views, but with little impact on people's behaviour.

A great difference grew between Europe, later on, along with America, and the rest of the world. 


The eighteenth and nineteenth centuries were a period of brutal economic protectionism, violent mercantilism, 


an economic policy that is designed to maximize the exports and minimize the imports for an economy,


and a form of imperialism and colonialism that, thanks to industrialization, was able for the first time to penetrate deep into all continents and exploit them.


And that was almost all over the world: South America, Africa, India, China. However, this so celebrated freedom and human rights and democracy applied only to white males, not to the rest of the world.


We can spend a lot of time elaborating on how the classic freedom culture of Ancient Greece was revived, how Founding Fathers wrote a constitution, and so on,


but when you put this period of history under a looking glass you see, that this is the moment in history that the well-to-do, well-educated white male reached his summit of power.


Low educated poor people of all races and women, to all of these fellow creatures nothing of these philosophies of rights, equality, and freedom applied.


This is the moment in history when white male supremacy was institutionalized and became the fundament of Western culture.


Thank you for your attention again....

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Annelien de Dijn: "Freedom. An unruly history".  2020

TABLE OF CONTENT ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

The Discussion

[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:15] Somedirtycat Saule: Thanks for the lecture

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm interesting

[13:16] herman Bergson: What is wanted to say is how arrogant and smug the white males of the 19th century were

[13:17] Somedirtycat Saule: Is it better now?

[13:17] herman Bergson: no no....that is my point....

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no We still have Trump and his henchmen

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and Prutin

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ect

[13:17] herman Bergson: the 18-19th century was just the cradle of white supremacism

[13:18] herman Bergson: There is an interesting detail....the picture behind me

[13:18] herman Bergson: it shows how this attitude and philosophy lives on til today

[13:18] herman Bergson: I mean the bottom one....

[13:18] Somedirtycat Saule: As it looks today I think it was good to put the politics onto white males

[13:19] herman Bergson: there you see a woman on the left...the symbol of freedom...

[13:19] Somedirtycat Saule: Are women happier today?

[13:19] herman Bergson: in her hand she has a stick and on top of it is something that looks like a red flag...

[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): she still stands behind a man

[13:20] herman Bergson: it is not a flag but a socalled freedom hat....a cap worn by the French revolutionaries...

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:20] herman Bergson: Trump uses also a red cap as his symbol :-)

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if she was free she should in front of the man

[13:20] herman Bergson: His clearing the swamp revolution

[13:21] herman Bergson: trash goes in front of the broom Beeertje :-))

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i know:)

[13:22] herman Bergson: But if you look at is remarkable what this white male dominance achieved in colonialism and imperialism

[13:23] herman Bergson: And what a fight it is for non white males for equality and equal chances

[13:23] Somedirtycat Saule: Yes. It's awfull. Males build civilization. White ones never the less

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and not to forget the woman

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed :(

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): after all we are all same

[13:24] herman Bergson: India and Japan and china built civilizations too Saul

[13:24] Somedirtycat Saule: nods

[13:24] herman Bergson: Incas Mayas

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but all built by man

[13:25] herman Bergson: it is not a white male prerogative

[13:25] Somedirtycat Saule: Not as good as ours, tho

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): where were the woman?

[13:25] herman Bergson: Not as good as ours.........hmmmm

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): who are 'ours"?

[13:26] herman Bergson: That is a difficult theme.....after all.....what is the definition of good in this context?

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:26] herman Bergson: That too Beertje...good observation

[13:26] Somedirtycat Saule: Not as good as ours, tho japan and china have western civilizations now

[13:26] herman Bergson: Hello Sinne

[13:27] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano) waves to everyone. "I missed it, right?"

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi Sinne

[13:27] Somedirtycat Saule: That text went wrong...

[13:27] herman Bergson: I wouldnt say so Saule...

[13:27] herman Bergson: Japan and China have adopted some features of Western civilization

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they use western products, but western civilization?

[13:28] oola Neruda: all of them have backstories that offend

[13:28] oola Neruda: including the US

[13:29] Somedirtycat Saule: When thinking about it. Didn't Japanese men build Japanese civ? and same for India and China?

[13:29] herman Bergson: I just keep wondering why Europe developed in that way....

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes general it is a male dominated world we live in

[13:30] Somedirtycat Saule: Men build civilizations.

[13:30] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): The difference between Europe and China is that China is a vast plain, with easy transportation.

[13:30] Somedirtycat Saule: Interesting

[13:30] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Meanwhile, Europe is mountains.

[13:30] oola Neruda: I'm talking about wars and uncontroversial "head men"

[13:30] herman Bergson: No...for that you also need women, Saule :-)

[13:30] Somedirtycat Saule: Women make new small men

[13:30] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): This means that China unified long before Europe did, because invading neighbours was relatively cheap.

[13:31] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): European warfare was FAR more expensive, and countries stayed smaller.

[13:32] herman Bergson: That is what we definitely see today Sinne :-)

[13:33] Somedirtycat Saule: We needed bankers to loan out money for the wars too

[13:33] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Like the Fuggers.

[13:33] herman Bergson: Financing the wars in Europe was one of the biggest problems of kings

[13:34] herman Bergson: Rothschild

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i see

[13:34] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Actually no. Rothschild is quite a bit later.

[13:35] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): What the kings did was borrow money from jews, and then when they wanted the money back, start a pogrom.

[13:35] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Which happened to the Fuggers.

[13:36] herman Bergson: And still there is the question....why developed Europe into a while male supremacist culture in the 18-19th century?

[13:36] Somedirtycat Saule: War would been smaller. Wonder how we would have it without all small kingdoms in Europe

[13:36] herman Bergson: You only can do that once Sinne :-)

[13:37] Somedirtycat Saule: If Rome still was a thing as example

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe due to the philosophers and the literature?

[13:37] herman Bergson: I am inclined to blame christianity :-)

[13:37] herman Bergson: a male dominated religion

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:37] oola Neruda: me too

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): still is

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:38] herman Bergson: the woman as producer of new believers

[13:38] Somedirtycat Saule: But is male domination of all except domestic issues really bad?

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ga en vermenigvuldigd u....

[13:38] oola Neruda: never think... just obey

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its inequality

[13:39] herman Bergson: I would say Yes Saule...and I'll tell you why....

[13:39] Somedirtycat Saule: Equallity between sexes and races is overestimated

[13:39] herman Bergson: It si bad, this male domination

[13:39] Somedirtycat Saule: *Equality

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): women can do the same things like men, sometimes even better

[13:39] herman Bergson: Ok...let me tell you this.....

[13:39] Somedirtycat Saule: But are women happy of be men?

[13:40] herman Bergson: By denying women education and job careers, you leave 50% of the human intellectual capacity of a society unused, for instance

[13:41] oola Neruda: RIGHT

[13:41] Somedirtycat Saule: Looking at how we have it today far to many have opinions.

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no..everybody can have an opinion

[13:41] herman Bergson: what do you mean by that, Saule

[13:42] herman Bergson: A second argument is.....

[13:42] oola Neruda: also... try living with a drunk who can't tie his shoelaces... beats you up... try that for awhile and see if you like cleaning up his messes... an then... "obey"

[13:42] Somedirtycat Saule: Expressing oppinion is overestimated.

[13:42] herman Bergson: By who? who decided on the standard of how opinions have to be estimated?

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): even you can have an opinion Saul

[13:43] herman Bergson: Let  me give you a second argument

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): everyone can have one

[13:43] herman Bergson: it IS a fact that men and women differ in a lot of respects....

[13:43] Somedirtycat Saule: I just masturbating my brain instead of doing something useful.

[13:44] herman Bergson: by leaving our women only the male features shape our society...the female qualities are mainly ignored and not valued...

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:45] herman Bergson: it is like having a rainbow and ignoring half of the colors

[13:45] herman Bergson: so there are good arguments for equality and equal chances for men and women in a free society

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for ex most discoveries made by women were not noticed and forgotten bout, one of few exeptions are Marie Curie and Ada Lovelace

[13:46] Somedirtycat Saule: What color is housework and child birth?

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the brightest Saul

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mut there were many more but we have nopt heard of then, only the male made discoveries were noticed

[13:46] herman Bergson: If you talk of freedom, this should not only apply to males, who then define what freedom may mean for the not males

[13:46] herman Bergson: ^_^ Beertje

[13:47] Somedirtycat Saule: Perhaps males are better for everything else than housework and child birth

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol... you makeme smile

[13:47] herman Bergson: So, if you look at the present situation we still operate on a rather primitive level with respect to the use of all available human talent and recourses in our societies

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wij meisjes zijn geen fokvee

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): use google...

[13:49] herman Bergson: I guess you can't cook, Saule ^_^

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i can confess that dishes and housekeeping can fall behind now and then. I mostly prioritizes my projects, a bit too much sometimes

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess cause its more fun

[13:49] herman Bergson: I know the male problem Bejiita ^_^

[13:50] Somedirtycat Saule: I I guess I live more equal than I preach. I cook good

[13:50] herman Bergson: You can blame it n the role confirming education you had to endure :-)

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we do

[13:50] herman Bergson: well,well...a confession :-)

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least ill do a big spring cleaning soon and then i make that as a project, then it will be more fun, wiping off everything vaccuum everywhere and MOST IMPORTANT, the balcony funiture and decorations will be carried out

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for nice summer evenings again soon

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with a beer and more coding and nice music on the balcony

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): music

[13:51] herman Bergson: You can do it, Bejiita ^_^

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): give your sister a compliment too when she cleans her house

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sister

[13:52] herman Bergson: Anyway....the cry for freedom still has to sound and be heard

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed!

[13:53] herman Bergson: I said last time...

[13:53] herman Bergson: We still got work to do :-))

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a lot:))

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true true

[13:53] herman Bergson: For now we may take a rest :-)

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay

[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all again and happy cooking Saule ^_^

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): happy cleaning

[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill do that this weekend

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for now its SNOWING AGAIN OUTSIDE!

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Thank you! Herman and class

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cold have returned!

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i'm dreaming of a white.....

[13:55] herman Bergson: what? Snowing Bejiita????

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was snowstorm when driving from work

[13:55] herman Bergson: the tulips are flowering here

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ...easter....

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lalallalalala

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least its not staying on ground

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what i can see now

[13:56] Somedirtycat Saule: Bye bye

Tuesday, March 29, 2022

988: Not again Slavery.......

 In London lived Richard Price (1723 – 1791) . He was a  moral philosopher, Nonconformist minister and mathematician. 


He was also a political reformer, pamphleteer, active in radical, republican, and liberal causes such as the French and American Revolutions. 


He was well-connected and fostered communication between many people, including Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, George Washington, Mirabeau, a leader of the French Revolution.


In early 1776 he published a pamphlet, titled: Observations on the Nature of Civil Liberty, the Principles of Government, and the Justice and Policy of the War with America. 


Sixty thousand copies of this pamphlet were sold within a few months and a cheap edition was issued which sold twice as many copies.


This must have been an amazing phenomenon in those days, but it is also telling, that it hit an open nerve. After all, was the time of a revolutionary Atlantic world.


I assume that while the British government sent shiploads of troops to America other ships carried shiploads of this pamphlet to America.


In the pamphlet, Price explained why he supported the rebellious settlers in America. He condemned the British on the basis of the principles of liberty.


 By assuming the right to tax the American settlers without consulting them, the British threatened to impose "slavery" on the colony.   


Price's claim that the British government was out to enslave the American people was based on a specific notion of freedom, namely that freedom was possible only in a self-governing state. 


According to Price, being free in a society or as a society had nothing to do with the degree to which government interfered in people's lives.     


No, people were free as long as they had a say in the governance of their own country. 


According to Price, self-government was necessary to be free in a robust way. A despotic regime could grant liberties to private individuals, 


but it would be a favor or a tacit consent, borrowed from the zeitgeist or the accidental benevolence of the government. 


His views on freedom were widely resonated among American, Dutch, French, and Polish revolutionaries. 


In 1774, Virginia MP Thomas Jefferson issued a strong statement outlining the settlers' various complaints against Britain, including the imposition of high tariffs without consultation.


But Jefferson also had a more fundamental complaint: the colonists were enslaved by all kinds of new laws from Great Britain.


This line of thinking, borrowed from the Ancient Greeks, took Europe and America in a storm of revolutionary activities.


There is one interesting detail. Many of these revolutionary factions were very concerned about the accumulation of private property and wealth.


For the revolutionaries, economic equality was not the goal in itself ( communism intended !), 


but they did think that economic equality was a necessary condition for democratic self-government and hence for freedom for all.


And all this homo sapiens already understood around 1750 and when you look at 2022? The Russians try to enslave a sovereign nation


and a lot of the Western World is controlled by those who accumulated huge amounts of money and converted under the radar democracy into a plutocracy.


There is work to be done...


Thank you for your attention 

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Annelien de Dijn: "Freedom. An unruly history".  2020

TABLE OF CONTENT ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of my Self                                          6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

The Discussion

[14:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there is work to be done still indeed

[14:15] oola Neruda: but how?

[14:15] herman Bergson: Good question oola....

[14:15] herman Bergson: The sacro-sanct position of private property in our societies is an obstacle

[14:15] oola Neruda: especially when people have a choice in how they spend their lives...

[14:16] Somedirtycat Saule: I have to oppose to this MSM induced conformism "The Russians try to enslave a sovereign nation"

[14:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the issue is some does not learn from history and when ONE man like Putin a d kim Jong can enslave an entire nation by himself (and his brainwashed henchmen) we will continue have this issue

[14:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause then it just take ONE man to create a huge mess

[14:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ONE man who have not learned from history

[14:16] herman Bergson: okSuale...elaborate on that

[14:17] Somedirtycat Saule: Nato, a war organization is setting up in in Ukraine among number of three letter secret agencies. Putin said stop.

[14:18] herman Bergson: ???

[14:18] oola Neruda: I don't understand what you mean

[14:18] herman Bergson: Does that justify an invasion of a sovereign country?

[14:19] herman Bergson: Aren't there diplomatic means?

[14:19] Somedirtycat Saule: Putin said that it was unacceptable. Try me, kind of.

[14:19] oola Neruda: what are they setting up... i am confused

[14:19] Ciska Riverstone is online.

[14:19] herman Bergson: And that he said that justifies what is happening now?

[14:19] Somedirtycat Saule: Nato membership for Ukraine

[14:20] oola Neruda: isn't that their right?

[14:20] Somedirtycat Saule: Not justify but understandable

[14:20] herman Bergson: There is no nato membership for Ukraine

[14:20] herman Bergson: they even weren't invited to join

[14:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): As i get it Putin want to destroy entire Europe's democracy in the end so that no one can challenge his power, he basically want to rule the planet

[14:21] herman Bergson: I am just asking for the justification of the aggression....the attemp to subjugate a sovereign country

[14:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im worried he will not stop with ukraine

[14:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he go to any length to stay in power

[14:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no one should be able to challenge him

[14:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is true power corruption

[14:22] Somedirtycat Saule: There is a lot of MSM propaganda. To take a stand for the state Ukraine is to be non informed. There is a history since the color revolution organized by US.

[14:22] Somedirtycat Saule: Both Russia and Ukraine are to blame

[14:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): In any case this war should never have been,

[14:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the very idea trying to get Soviet union back in 2022

[14:23] herman Bergson: I am sorry Saule but there was a treaty signed by Jetsin that granted autonomy to Belarus, Ukraine and the baltic states, if I am not mistaken

[14:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa

[14:23] Somedirtycat Saule: Sorry Bejiita. You sounds like a political agitator. Neoliberal?

[14:24] herman Bergson: Ukraine is a sovereign state recognized by international law...

[14:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): No, i just want peace in the woerld

[14:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no more massacres

[14:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its 2022 after all

[14:24] Somedirtycat Saule: then you have to look at this deeper

[14:24] herman Bergson: I                    think so....

[14:24] herman Bergson: We are discussin here the concept of freedom....

[14:25] herman Bergson: it means...people's rule in a country...

[14:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[14:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): democracy

[14:25] herman Bergson: the Ukrainians had it till Putin decided they should not have freedom

[14:25] oola Neruda: Putin has done many things that are not legal... over MANY years....

[14:26] Somedirtycat Saule: I would like freedom from MSM lies and manipulation that sure find its way into ppls heads.

[14:26] herman Bergson: I dont know what MSM is...I just know what international law is and Putin ignored that by his aggression against a sovereign country

[14:27] herman Bergson: simple as that

[14:27] oola Neruda: Ummmm I have been to Russia.... it is lovely but the politics, even for citizens, is not "bliss"

[14:27] Somedirtycat Saule: Trannies goe to war because they cant live in a world where russia exists. Get bombed and wonder what happend.

[14:27] herman Bergson: Sorry...don't understand what you mean here Saule

[14:27] Somedirtycat Saule: Madness

[14:28] herman Bergson: The Russian aggression is madness indeed

[14:28] herman Bergson: archaic actually

[14:28] Somedirtycat Saule: Western volunteers in Ukraine tasted war

[14:28] herman Bergson: es it its strategy of bombing civilians to break the opponent

[14:29] Somedirtycat Saule: No. It was a military training facility. Perfectly good target

[14:29] oola Neruda: I've been in both China and Russia... and you have to be super careful whom you talk to and what you say

[14:29] herman Bergson: Matiopol is a training facility???

[14:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): They bombed schools and theatres

[14:29] herman Bergson: and Kiev?

[14:30] herman Bergson: The city of Mariopol is completely destructed by Russian bombing...

[14:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed oola in these places u need to be very careful what u say

[14:30] Somedirtycat Saule: If you put Grad rocket artillery in a mall that is a perfectly good target too

[14:30] herman Bergson: I am talking about a whole city...not a mall

[14:31] Somedirtycat Saule: If you put a soldiers on the roof of a hospital, that is the war crime. Not the bombing of the soldiers

[14:31] herman Bergson: OK...let's get back to the basics here.....

[14:31] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i don't want to go somewhere where I have to watch what I say. and do i still pay for it? .....

[14:31] herman Bergson: Question one....

[14:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Everyone should be FREE

[14:32] herman Bergson: Does the citizens of Ukraine have the right to choose for their own freedom and thence for their own government?

[14:32] Somedirtycat Saule: If Ukraine want to be free and prosper they shouldent allow US and Nato to make their country to a military base. Its that simple

[14:33] herman Bergson: that was not my question....

[14:33] oola Neruda: what kind of a choice is that

[14:33] herman Bergson: I asked if they had that right to freedom for themselves

[14:34] Somedirtycat Saule: Yes they are free to chose whatever stupid move they like. Some choices means war with Russia

[14:34] oola Neruda: they are trying to protect themselves... it is not like they were planning to attack Russia...

[14:34] herman Bergson: ok...

[14:34] Somedirtycat Saule: Sad but a fact

[14:35] oola Neruda: Russia is the one who decides who they want to go to war with... why and how

[14:35] Somedirtycat Saule: Russia made a big misstake by attacking

[14:35] herman Bergson: Did Russia had the right to invade that country?

[14:35] oola Neruda: Ukraine did not ask for it

[14:35] Somedirtycat Saule: Not if I have a say

[14:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its Putin who started the war to crush democracy and recreate Soviet Union where he would be the utimate ruler

[14:35] Somedirtycat Saule: But yes. Ukraine asked for it

[14:35] herman Bergson: We are talking here about the international right to freedom for a sovereign country

[14:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he is a KGB agent from the dark side of WW2 and now he want that era back, Stalin Hitler ect

[14:36] Somedirtycat Saule: This is a good example that freedom is not allways good

[14:36] oola Neruda: the Ukraine's status was given years ago...

[14:36] herman Bergson: When was the diplomatic request deposited on Putin's desk by Ukraine, Saule?

[14:36] oola Neruda: to be free of Russia

[14:36] Somedirtycat Saule: Freedom to get war.

[14:36] Somedirtycat Saule: Ukraine chose it

[14:37] Somedirtycat Saule: Putin was clear about it

[14:37] herman Bergson: No..what is your proof for that statement?

[14:37] herman Bergson: Clear about what?

[14:37] Somedirtycat Saule: Which of the statements?

[14:37] oola Neruda: The Balkin states.... were severed from Russia long ago... signed papers on it

[14:37] herman Bergson: Ukraine chose it

[14:37] herman Bergson: that statement

[14:38] herman Bergson: not a single sane country invites another country to invade it.

[14:38] Somedirtycat Saule: Putin said no Nato allowed. Ukraine kept inviting Nato

[14:38] herman Bergson: No true

[14:38] herman Bergson: there were no nato forces in Ukraine

[14:38] oola Neruda: how can he make laws for another country

[14:38] herman Bergson: it was not a member

[14:39] oola Neruda: it was not his place to decide what another country chooses

[14:39] herman Bergson: Article 5 of Nato does not apply. so there cant be a no-flyzone over Ukraine

[14:39] herman Bergson: Besides this......

[14:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they asked for them to block airspace so they dont bomb civilians, nato refuses though as that would mean attacking russian forces and this 100 % start WW3 and a global niclear war 0 bye bye all life on earth

[14:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nuclear

[14:40] Somedirtycat Saule: Im talking about Ukraine politicians. The people is victims and not guilty.

[14:40] herman Bergson: indeed oola

[14:41] herman Bergson: You still haven't give a justification for the right to invade a sovereign  country Saule

[14:41] Somedirtycat Saule: This about bombing civilians sounds like MSM. If you keep use these talkpoints you are just fooled. Bejiita

[14:41] herman Bergson: If country A says to B I do't want you to do X, doesnt justify anything

[14:41] oola Neruda: he just wants what he wants... none of us have a right to dictate the laws of another country.. Putin included

[14:41] herman Bergson: I am not using those talking points Saule

[14:42] Somedirtycat Saule: Civilians is bombed as an side effect of all wars.

[14:42] herman Bergson: I am using the talking points of international rights

[14:42] herman Bergson: and the fact that Ukraine was NOT a member of Nato

[14:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i get it its because Ukraine is a democracy and if he can overtake Ukraine and destroy its democracy there is noone that can challenge Putins power

[14:43] oola Neruda: there should not have been an invasion predicted or threatened on any pretense....

[14:43] herman Bergson: of course that is the painful issue here Bejiita

[14:43] Somedirtycat Saule: So what does international rights say about using civilian infrastructure to take up military positions?

[14:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Putin is a power maniac, from the dark age of KGB and he still live in the dark ages

[14:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and think he can recreate that period

[14:43] herman Bergson: Please Bejiita.....slow down a little

[14:43] bergfrau Apfelbaum: A man who starts a war doesn't care about right or wrong.

[14:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least it sounds like that

[14:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nope

[14:44] Somedirtycat Saule: Putin is wrong by attacking. Ukraine is Wrong by inviting Nato.

[14:44] herman Bergson: It did not invite Nato, Saule

[14:44] herman Bergson: It was not a member of nato..

[14:44] herman Bergson: Besides that

[14:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no

[14:44] oola Neruda: thank you.... he is wrong................. Ukraine has a right to join ... they are independent

[14:45] herman Bergson: as a sovereign country it has all right to do what it thinks is good for their country

[14:45] oola Neruda: they should be free to make their own decisions

[14:45] Somedirtycat Saule: they are right to join and they got war. smart move.

[14:45] herman Bergson: Based on what law can that be contested by other countries?

[14:45] herman Bergson: justification for this war

[14:46] herman Bergson: Yes they got war because some aggressor thought it would be in his interest to do so

[14:46] Somedirtycat Saule: Sad that international rights just are a paper tiger and mental masturbation for some.

[14:47] herman Bergson: International law is a paper tiger because some people on this planet lack the moral maturity to act according to law

[14:47] Somedirtycat Saule: But keep masturbate and dont look into whats really happen. Often the strong guy write the law as he like

[14:47] herman Bergson: marality is an eternal problem for homo sapiens indeed

[14:48] oola Neruda: that does not make it right... just because one has power... does not automatically make it right

[14:48] Somedirtycat Saule: I think we are into Lawyering here

[14:48] herman Bergson: No...we just look at the facts, I'd say

[14:48] oola Neruda: there are moral laws that ...frankly... superceded bullies

[14:49] Somedirtycat Saule: Might gives right in many situations. US is best in world of that

[14:49] herman Bergson: the facts are that a sovereign country is invaded by another country, that didn't agree with its neighbor's political and social and economical development

[14:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Putin's wife and all his children live in Switzerland. why aren't they arrested? So that this stupid Putin finally starts to think!!?

[14:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): No one have the right to invade another sovereign country, hard fact

[14:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): !

[14:50] Somedirtycat Saule: #1. In love and war there are no rules

[14:50] herman Bergson: No no daughter lives here in the Netherlands

[14:50] herman Bergson: Sorry Saule, but can you explain how you justify that rule?

[14:51] Somedirtycat Saule: Look. Russia will pay dearly for this. It's their choise to suffer I guess

[14:51] oola Neruda: it sounds like Putin is as innocent as Hitler.... when you claim all these things for Putin

[14:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: I have no idea how many children this pig has. but they should be used as leverage. I don't think his wife or daughter in Holland. want war

[14:51] Somedirtycat Saule: Yes. Between states there is an option to follow or abandon international rights.

[14:51] herman Bergson: It will indeed, but nobody ahs wished that what is happening should have happened,

[14:52] herman Bergson: That it happens doen't mean that people think that this is right, Saule

[14:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Herman

[14:53] Somedirtycat Saule: I puke on simple people who don't understand that this Ukrainian war  is the fault of both countries. It make me sad to hear ppl parroting western media. Uou guys are not smart alt uninformed

[14:54] oola Neruda: what media are you parroting ... please

[14:54] oola Neruda: frankly.... if i go to the root of what i say... it is the Bible

[14:54] herman Bergson: I am sorry Saule, but invading a sovereign country, passing its boarders is simple a fault of one party, whatever any party has done

[14:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i have had enough of Putin today.... i will wait for you at the chart table. Thanks for the interesting class!! herman and class

[14:55] herman Bergson: We are not talking about putin Bergie but about international lawe

[14:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: happy weekend:-)

[14:55] oola Neruda: basic morals

[14:55] herman Bergson: Another victim of this war... ^_^

[14:55] Somedirtycat Saule: International law is optional for any country to respect or not

[14:56] herman Bergson: as the facts show it is not Saule....part of the world has turned against the agrressor

[14:56] oola Neruda: there is a reason for laws...

[14:56] Somedirtycat Saule: Yes. That is what Russia will face now

[14:56] herman Bergson: A number refrained from voting and a smale group was absent in teh Security `Council

[14:57] herman Bergson: No country voted against

[14:57] Somedirtycat Saule: I hope the world understand that Russia can vote with its nukes

[14:57] oola Neruda: oh that is clear....

[14:58] herman Bergson: I don;t think so Saule, unless it wants to take the whole world down in its drive to suicide

[14:58] oola Neruda: Saule... do you believe the things you say or do you just like to stir it up?

[14:58] Somedirtycat Saule: So if we push for international law we may not end up good here

[14:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)

[14:58] Somedirtycat Saule: Who writes the laws?

[14:58] herman Bergson: Again I disagree Saule....

[14:59] oola Neruda: sigh

[14:59] herman Bergson: 99% of all treaties in this world , the whole economy runs on international law

[14:59] oola Neruda: in Putin's case... he seems to do ti for himself

[14:59] Somedirtycat Saule: The laws is only effective if the big guys accept them.

[14:59] oola Neruda: and they must have morals and a conscience

[15:00] herman Bergson: what  big guys?

[15:00] Somedirtycat Saule: So if we comes with a paper to Putin who got the nukes

[15:00] herman Bergson: if you mean countries...yes :-)

[15:00] herman Bergson: 6 other countries have nukes Saule

[15:01] Somedirtycat Saule: It wont help Heman

[15:01] herman Bergson: You mean P is going to throw nuclear bombs around?

[15:01] Somedirtycat Saule: There is a risk yes

[15:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders even more)

[15:02] herman Bergson: There is...but before that a lot can is happenig already inside rusia

[15:02] Somedirtycat Saule: We poking a hornets nest here. We got the right to do it. Should we do it?

[15:03] Somedirtycat Saule: Ukraine did it

[15:03] herman Bergson: As long as Nato is no party in this conflict it is between Ukraine and Russia

[15:03] oola Neruda: self important egotistic .... and I'd have to make up a new word for someone who would make those choices

[15:03] herman Bergson: And it seems Russia gets the same treat there as it got in Afganistan

[15:04] herman Bergson: A lot of casualties. a demoralized army and a huge pile of destructed equipment

[15:04] Somedirtycat Saule: So what now. Are International law so important in this case?

[15:04] oola Neruda: what does he gain if he takes over the Ukraine?  what is the point... Russia is big enough as it is

[15:05] herman Bergson: They still are. for they still justify Ukraine's resistance and allows others to help them in their resistance because they stand for the same values of freedom

[15:05] oola Neruda: what is the )(&)*(^&^ point

[15:05] Somedirtycat Saule: oola, Its about Russia don't want Nato and its weapons close to Russia

[15:05] oola Neruda: poor baby...... if he behaves he won't get spanked

[15:05] oola Neruda: he started this

[15:06] herman Bergson: But that is BS Saule....

[15:06] herman Bergson: nato is already in Hungary and Rumania at its borders for years

[15:07] Somedirtycat Saule: They see their security more important than International law (if they now think the go against it, I don't know how they argue about that)

[15:07] oola Neruda: with missles, they don't need to be close to russia.... that is barely a threat with modern technology

[15:07] oola Neruda: especially if he is behaving like a human should

[15:08] oola Neruda: not threatening others

[15:08] Somedirtycat Saule: oola, you are not informed about short distance nuklear missiles

[15:08] oola Neruda: others

[15:08] Somedirtycat Saule: read up

[15:08] oola Neruda: perhaps

[15:08] Somedirtycat Saule: its a huge thing here

[15:09] oola Neruda: so... don't provoke others... work to get along in the world

[15:09] oola Neruda: be honest and kind

[15:09] Somedirtycat Saule: There is no response time if attacking Moscow with them compared to strategical ones

[15:10] oola Neruda: so start a world war?

[15:10] oola Neruda: come on

[15:10] oola Neruda: asking for it

[15:10] herman Bergson: Who has the intention to attack Moscow. Saule??

[15:10] Somedirtycat Saule: Nato

[15:10] herman Bergson: Nonsense

[15:10] Somedirtycat Saule: Nato and Russia are enemies

[15:10] oola Neruda: they did not have a reason to before he started aggression

[15:10] herman Bergson: What  proof do you have for that statement?

[15:10] herman Bergson: They still haven't  oola

[15:11] oola Neruda: could have... but haven't

[15:11] Somedirtycat Saule: you need proof from me about Nato and Russia are enemies?

[15:11] herman Bergson: No...

[15:11] oola Neruda: then behave like a human being

[15:11] herman Bergson: But I have proof that NATO is a DEFENSE organization...not an offensive one

[15:12] herman Bergson: so attacking sovereign countries is not on their agenda

[15:12] oola Neruda: don't give them reason

[15:12] oola Neruda: now they have reason

[15:12] Somedirtycat Saule: Please prove it

[15:12] oola Neruda: prove they aren't

[15:12] herman Bergson: It is stateted in the ...Nato manifest

[15:12] Somedirtycat Saule: Ore even better. Prove for russia lol

[15:12] oola Neruda: did not have a reason before this

[15:13] Somedirtycat Saule: Nato manifest

[15:13] herman Bergson: The goal of Nato is do defend the European countries...not to conquer other countries

[15:13] oola Neruda: prove what for russia.... they are the ones who moved

[[15:13] Somedirtycat Saule: oola. It should of course been proven earlier.

[15:14] herman Bergson: Nato has NEVER shown any act of aggression...

[15:14] oola Neruda: right

[15:14] oola Neruda: paranioid

[15:14] Somedirtycat Saule: I think naivity will drag us into ww3

[15:14] herman Bergson: Russsia instead attacked Hungary in 1956, Thechoslovakia saw Russian tanks...

[15:15] Somedirtycat Saule: Trannies flocking to Ukraine to kill russians so they can be better women

[15:15] Somedirtycat Saule: cracy

[15:15] herman Bergson: what are Trannies?

[15:15] Somedirtycat Saule: Trans women

[15:15] herman Bergson: lol

[15:15] herman Bergson: ok

[15:16] oola Neruda: lololol

[15:16] Somedirtycat Saule: Its a Reddit thing

[15:16] herman Bergson: Well..I guess that will make THE difference :-)

[15:16] Somedirtycat Saule: Many got killed at that taining facility

[15:16] oola Neruda: where do you get your news?

[15:17] herman Bergson: That is why they found so many bras there :-))))

[15:17] Somedirtycat Saule: There is a Reddit group organizing it

[15:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) is online.

[15:17] herman Bergson: We;ll......

[15:17] Somedirtycat Saule: Just go and read

[15:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) is offline.

[15:18] herman Bergson: I guess this is a good moment to thank you Saule, and the others for an interesting exchange here

[15:18] Somedirtycat Saule: Thank you

[15:18] herman Bergson: What you read does not to be true all the time Saule

[15:18] oola Neruda: I appreciate ...very much... that you bring another point of view... but some of this is really... ummmm.... wierd

[15:18] herman Bergson: That is a good thing oola

[15:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eeeh yes

[15:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[15:18] oola Neruda: yes it is good

[15:18] Somedirtycat Saule: I would say the same to you Herman

[15:19] oola Neruda: we all need to see other sides ...

[15:19] herman Bergson: I am well aware of that Saule :-))

[15:19] oola Neruda: i appreciate it

[15:19] herman Bergson: That I share  with you :-))

[15:19] oola Neruda: just.... ummm .... find some of it over the top

[15:19] Somedirtycat Saule: So If we read from all sides we can see that often there is not one bad part but both

[15:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i need to check some of this, at moment my head is spinning like a centrifuge however

[15:20] Somedirtycat Saule: thats my point

[15:20] herman Bergson: and there I disagree Saule...but that we already know :-)

[15:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed maybe we don't have all facts but

[15:20] herman Bergson: so we don't gonna repeat ourselves

[15:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Putin is still a scary dude

[15:20] Somedirtycat Saule: And important thing

[15:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well well

[15:21] Somedirtycat Saule: We shouldent judge before dust settled and propaganda cleared up

[15:21] herman Bergson: So...thank you all again...I most appreciated your participation today :-)

[15:21] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[15:21] oola Neruda: you do scare me a bit, Saule

[15:21] Somedirtycat Saule: if we follow one parts propaganda we become waapons

[15:21] herman Bergson: True Saule

[15:22] herman Bergson: So let the dust settle here first ^_^

[15:22] Somedirtycat Saule: *weapons

[15:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well thats correct

[15:22] herman Bergson: And enjoy a nice weekend

[15:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): propaganda is nasty stuff

[15:22] oola Neruda: be well all

[15:22] Somedirtycat Saule: nods

[15:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki cu around

[15:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and happy weekend

[15:23] Ewa Longines-Duffield (tuvastarr) is offline.

[15:23] Somedirtycat Saule: And I have undersatanding for old hate against russians from us Swedes. They done much bad here

[15:23] oola Neruda: may I ask, Saule... do you beleive in God ...

[15:24] oola Neruda: Buddah's teachings?

[15:24] Somedirtycat Saule: Yes, but not in any god you know about

[15:24] herman Bergson: Yes I also have a private one Saule :-)

[15:24] oola Neruda: that sounds.... scary after some of the other things you said

[15:24] herman Bergson: Much cheaper

[15:24] Somedirtycat Saule: Why?

[15:25] oola Neruda: I know of some gods... that are....... not kind

[15:25] Somedirtycat Saule: And what unkind did I say?

[15:25] herman Bergson: ah yes...which one of the more than 3200 gods mankinds has prayed to do you mean oola :-)

[15:25] oola Neruda: you did not

[15:26] oola Neruda: yes

[15:26] oola Neruda: there are so many

[15:26] herman Bergson: Saule you didn't say a single unkind thing :-)

[15:27] oola Neruda: no you did not say anything unkind

[15:27] oola Neruda: but some gods do

[15:27] herman Bergson: No oola...some people say they know a god who does so....

[15:28] Somedirtycat Saule: I don't know od any god doing bad things. I know about ppl do bad things.

[15:28] oola Neruda: ok

[15:28] oola Neruda: and there are many of those

[15:28] Somedirtycat Saule: nods

[15:28] herman Bergson: Right Saule...and they do it in the name of whatever god they fancy

[15:29] Somedirtycat Saule: yes

[15:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a

[15:29] herman Bergson: `Like the god of the russian orthodox church supports Putin in his actions

[15:29] Somedirtycat Saule: what do  russian orthodox church know about god?

[15:30] herman Bergson: a church...I guess it is their job to know about him :-0)))

[15:30] Somedirtycat Saule: or any 'church'. US and Israel is religious countries

[15:31] herman Bergson: I know...I know...I share your doubts about that Saule ^_^

[15:31] oola Neruda: agree

[15:32] Somedirtycat Saule: So I would like to clean this place from propagandistic onliners

[15:32] Somedirtycat Saule: that started this discussion

[15:32] herman Bergson: thank you for your effort Saule

[15:33] oola Neruda: some of your remarks feel the same to me...

[15:33] herman Bergson grins

[15:33] Somedirtycat Saule: like ?

[15:33] oola Neruda: as a journalism major, I studied propaganda ....

[15:33] herman Bergson: no no...not that road again....please

[15:33] oola Neruda: and see it everywhere

[15:33] oola Neruda: everywhere

[15:34] oola Neruda: EVERYWHERE

[15:34] Somedirtycat Saule: I agree that Putin is bad. But that Ukrainian president is bad too

[15:34] oola Neruda: sorry Herman

[15:35] Somedirtycat Saule: so dont wave Ukrainian flags if you don't support him

[15:35] herman Bergson: Is all ok Saule, but that doesnt justify anything of what is happening in the real world today

[15:35] Somedirtycat Saule: It explains

[15:36] oola Neruda: Golliaath... vs. a kid

[15:36] herman Bergson: Sure...there is a lot more that explains what is happening...a lot of history explains what P is aiming at etc...

[15:36] herman Bergson: but an explanation is not a moral justification

[15:36] Somedirtycat Saule: If Nato marched in t would been the other way

[15:37] herman Bergson: Nato does not march in....Article 5 does not apply to Ukraine

[15:37] oola Neruda: why would NATO want to march

[15:37] oola Neruda: who is threatening whom

[15:37] Ladyy Haven (ladyy.haven) is online.

[15:37] Somedirtycat Saule: Kind of not liking Russia? What would I know?

[15:38] Somedirtycat Saule: How can you not see Nato as a war org aiming at Russia?

[15:38] oola Neruda: NATO has no telling Russia what to do within it's borders... just don't threaten others outside of your borders

[15:39] herman Bergson: Because it never has been Saule

[15:39] herman Bergson: Was never intended to be

[15:39] Somedirtycat Saule: But as I said Short distance nuke missiles is a nono for russia close to its boarders

[15:39] Somedirtycat Saule: Worth going it war for

[15:39] oola Neruda: then be a nice neighbor

[15:40] oola Neruda: for pete's sake

[15:40] herman Bergson: How close do you want them Saule

[15:40] oola Neruda: don't threaten to take the country over...

[15:41] oola Neruda: live in peace

[15:41] herman Bergson: there are nuclear cruise missiles stationed in the Netherlands for decades now

[15:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed oola

[15:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): peace is the thing

[15:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki i gotta move

[15:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i cu

[15:41] Somedirtycat Saule: Russia and west had an oppertunity to not be enimies after collaps of Soviet

[15:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): happy weekend

[15:41] herman Bergson: You can pay them a visit at airbase Woensdrecht, it seems :-))

[15:42] Somedirtycat Saule: It didn't work unfortunately

[15:42] oola Neruda: sigh... i have to make supper for my family

[15:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu

[15:42] herman Bergson: yes...that is an interesting issue Saule

[15:42] Somedirtycat Saule: Night

[15:42] oola Neruda: they are about to picket me

[15:42] oola Neruda: night Y'all

[15:42] herman Bergson: See you oola

[15:43] Somedirtycat Saule: Im to much of devils advocate

[15:43] herman Bergson: I just ordered the book of Jonathan Holslag is about the recent history of the past  decades

[15:44] herman Bergson: It deals with this post 1989 situation