When dealing with the 16th century we can not ignore one of the big events of those years: the Reformation.
What was its contribution to the ongoing debate about freedom as it was conceived by the Ancient Greeks and Romans and their brothers in arms the humanists?
The Reformation was a major movement within Western Christianity in 16th-century Europe that posed a religious and political challenge to the Catholic Church
and in particular to papal authority, as we probably all know. It all began with the publication of the Ninety-five Theses by Martin Luther in 1517 in Wittenberg.
The spread of Gutenberg's printing press provided the means for the rapid dissemination of religious materials and bibles translated from Latin into the language spoken by ordinary people.
The Reformation emancipated the Protestants, made laity equal to priests, creating a "priesthood of all believers," as Luther put it, and encouraged the laity to read and interpret Scripture for themselves.
This religious freedom led to a new appreciation of personal freedom, namely that people could do and think as they pleased, without interference from the state.
This form of freedom did not only distinguish the modern world from the Middle Ages. Protestant thinkers at the time assumed that ancient thinkers placed collective freedom above individual freedom.
On the contrary, however, as we have seen, writers like Herodotus believed that individual security and personal independence existed only in the context of a free or self-governing state.
Or think of Cicero with his ideas about private property and natural rights. Their humanistic heirs felt the same way.
When men like Machiavelli or Harrington advocated freedom or self-government in the collective sense,
they did so because they believed it was the only way people could maintain control over their own lives.
Both the ancients and their humanist admirers called the freedom to express one's opinion or to chart one's own life path one of the main advantages of living in a free state, in other words, under popular government.
But the question is: this freedom of interpreting the bible yourself and having your own opinion about it, did that really contribute much to the political debate on individual freedom?
The leading reformers themselves, such as Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, disseminated authoritarian views, in spite of all their protests against papal authority.
They advocated not religious liberty but submission to the will of God, advocating not an independent conscience but the eradication of heresy. .
In so far as the Reformation promoted freedom, it was inner, spiritual freedom, compatible with the subjection of the individual to the word of God and to the king and other political authorities as his representatives.
For example, we cannot in any way regard Martin Luther's advocacy for Christian freedom as a defense of religious diversity or of the right of Christians to believe or assemble according to their own beliefs.
True Christians were free in the sense that they accepted that their salvation was in God's hands and could not be accomplished by doing good works or obeying man-made rules such as papal decrees.
And when Luther spoke of liberty of conscience, he did not simply mean that people should think what they wanted or that they should worship God in their own way.
For Luther, a conscience was free when it was “chained by the Word of God, and that word, as expressed in the Bible, was unambiguous.”
If other people understood Bible passages differently than Luther, he said they were misled or deliberately disregarding God's commandments
and deviating from the true faith, in other words, from Luther's interpretation of Scripture.
I guess you may recognize this general intolerance, which you still find among people who are associated with these kinds of belief systems. So, they don't offer the liberty, we are looking for.
Thank you for your attention again...
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
The Discussion
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:24] herman Bergson: In other words, the evangelicals are not really the right people to promote tolerance and personal freedom
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u are free but only if u think like me
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that thing?
[13:24] herman Bergson: And that already began with Luther himself
[13:25] oola Neruda: not all are the same.... all depends upon the pastor and his personality...
[13:25] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita
[13:25] oola Neruda: I've known both kinds...
[13:26] oola Neruda: some who love... others who boss around
[13:26] herman Bergson: yes oola...and there were small groups that supported that personal freedom...the pietists for instance, nut they are a minority
[13:26] oola Neruda: yes... minority... ir right
[13:27] oola Neruda: ego
[13:27] herman Bergson: Well, ideologies and religions have a tendency to be intolerant by nature
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why be so intolerant?
[13:28] herman Bergson: Like we ourselves are when we fall into this binary thinking in terms of US and THEM
[13:28] oola Neruda: I had to simply LEAVE the church when a pastor and his male helpers INSISTED THAT WOMEN MUST BE SUBJECT TO MEN
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): realy?
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): WOOOT!
[13:29] oola Neruda: DO what we tell you to do
[13:29] herman Bergson: lol...oola
[13:29] oola Neruda: no it is true
[13:29] oola Neruda: the man is always right
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm sadly there is that kind also
[13:29] oola Neruda: i told them to shove it and left
[13:29] herman Bergson: that you have to experience such a thing....
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): like google is always right:)
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ssss
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they told that in our school too
[13:30] herman Bergson: Why are people intolerant...?
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i never believed it
[13:30] oola Neruda: and they found themselves a verse out of context that proved they were superior
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its about power as usual i guess
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ssss
[13:30] herman Bergson: yes...those verses....fitted for everything
[13:31] oola Neruda: ego... i think... as well
[13:31] herman Bergson: But why do you want power, Bejiita?
[13:31] herman Bergson: ok
[13:31] herman Bergson: 1. power
[13:31] herman Bergson: 2. ego
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:31] herman Bergson: 3. fear
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 4 greed
[13:32] herman Bergson: Greed is the fear to lose what you have or of not getting enough
[13:33] CONNIE Eichel is offline.
[13:33] oola Neruda: self image...
[13:33] herman Bergson: = ego ?
[13:33] oola Neruda: yes
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:33] herman Bergson: I see greed as a form of fear.....
[13:34] herman Bergson: hoarding stuff is done out of self protection
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like toilet paper
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:34] oola Neruda: power
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed there are hoarders of all kind but when one person want to sort of own the entire planets wealth
[13:35] herman Bergson: bejiita mentioned that oola :-)
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to much wealth on too few dudes
[13:36] herman Bergson: So, intolerance is a threat to each others freedom
[13:36] herman Bergson: How do we become tolerant? :-)
[13:37] oola Neruda: does not have to be wealth... can be other things... like ... "i can ... more or better than you.... like body building
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i am tolerant but i dont have the recipe really but well
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we all have our things
[13:38] herman Bergson: true
[13:38] oola Neruda: I agree... fear is the bottom line
[13:38] herman Bergson: one suggestion......don't adhere any dogmatic belief....
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:39] herman Bergson: suggestion two.... dare to face uncertainty
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and don't be Putin
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and like each others differences
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 'ect
[13:39] herman Bergson: right Bejiita
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): many things but as said i dont have the ultimate recipe
[13:40] herman Bergson: don't be judgemental
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i just am
[13:40] herman Bergson: in other words.....
[13:40] herman Bergson: be a philosopher ^_^
[13:41] oola Neruda: smiles
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)))
[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum: just respect your neighbors. then it works worldwide
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa true
[13:41] herman Bergson: yes Bergie...
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good ideas
[13:41] oola Neruda: do unto others as you would have them do unto you
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a classic also
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i live by that one
[13:42] herman Bergson: doesn't work all the time but in general a good strategy :-)
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:43] herman Bergson: Well....I guess this all will help us through the weekend :-))
[13:43] herman Bergson: A nice time to think it over ...
[13:43] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Politicians are too stupid for this strategy because it, their power, is blinding.
[13:44] oola Neruda: agree
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and Class
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:44] herman Bergson: So...class dismissed...enjoy
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Dankjewel herman
[13:44] oola Neruda: cunning might be another word... for those who are not stupid...
[13:45] oola Neruda: manipulative
[13:45] herman Bergson: that are the ones that do not support the Golden Rule, oola
[13:45] oola Neruda: manipulate to get what they want
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
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