Monday, May 30, 2022

1006: The Statue of Liberty...

 If there has been one person, who made the American way of life popular in Europe, then it has been Alexis de Tocqueville (1805 -1859).


A French aristocrat who traveled to America on a governmental mission in 1831. He studied the country for nine months and published his bestseller "De La Démocratie en Amérique" (On Democracy in America) in 1835.


He became a great admirer of American democracy and the American way of life especially equality and individualism, although he also observed that this did not apply to women and slaves. But nevertheless...


I only can mention a few subjects here. As Tocqueville understood it, this rapidly democratizing society had a population devoted to "middling" values which wanted to amass through hard work vast fortunes. 


In Tocqueville's mind, this explained why the United States was so different from Europe. In Europe, he claimed, nobody cared about making money. 


The lower classes had no hope of gaining more than minimal wealth while the upper classes found it crass, vulgar, and unbecoming of their sort to care about something as unseemly as money and many were virtually guaranteed wealth and took it for granted.


Tocqueville tried to understand why the United States was so different from Europe in the last throes of aristocracy. 


In contrast to the European aristocratic ethic, the United States was a society where hard work and money-making was the dominant ethic, 


where the common man enjoyed a level of dignity which was unprecedented, where commoners never deferred to elites and where what he described as crass individualism and market capitalism had taken root to an extraordinary degree.


It almost sounds like the American Dream, however, noting the rise of the industrial sector in the American economy, 


Tocqueville, some scholars have argued, correctly predicted that an industrial aristocracy would arise from the ownership of labor. 


He warned that 'friends of democracy must keep an anxious eye peeled in this direction at all times', observing that the route of the industry was the gate 


by which a newfound wealthy class might potentially dominate, although he himself believed that an industrial aristocracy would differ from the formal aristocracy of the past.


And that is exactly the situation after 1870 and maybe I dare say, has been since then till today. The unequal distribution of wealth remained high during this period.


From 1860 to 1900, the wealthiest 2% of American households owned more than a third of the nation's wealth, while the top 10% owned roughly three-quarters of it.


And in such a democracy is always the fear of the tyranny of the masses, mob rule.

The Senate, Supreme Court, and the expanded powers of the president were all designed to limit the power of the people, argued Henry Maine, an influential British legal historian in a series of essays in 1885. 


The American polity with its numerous checks and Balances kept the power of the people in check. By the late 1800s, the American political system had come to be regarded as a bulwark of freedom 


because its institutions were less sensitive to popular demand for property redistribution than those of European parliamentary democracies. 


This view of freedom and democracy was symbolically expressed in the iconic statue of Fréderic Auguste Bartholdi, a gift from the French people to the Americans. 


The original message of the statue was this: it was to propagate the anti-democratic concept of freedom cherished by nineteenth-century liberals. 


The project's creators and supporters wanted the image to encourage a link between freedom, order, and personal security. 


That is why they had deliberately omitted the traditional symbol of freedom, the red freedom hat. It was not the scene of Delacroix that had to be the symbol, but the focus on respect for orderly freedom. 


That is why the statue also has a 'tabula ansata' (tablet with dovetail handles) in the left hand. The idea was that the rule of law, not self-government by the people, was the best guarantee of freedom.


And we are heading for exciting times in which we are going to see if the torch of freedom keeps burning.


Thank you for your attention again... 

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Annelien de Dijn: "Freedom. An unruly history".  2020

TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

The Discussion

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:27] herman Bergson: As you see....nothing has changed.....

[13:27] herman Bergson: A rich upper-class controls politics with its money

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sssss

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the poor still lives in the gutter :(

[13:28] herman Bergson: Freedom is mainly defined as the freedom to amass private property, where the state only has the function to protect this....for the rest HANDS OFF

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:28] herman Bergson: that is what they call small government.....lowering taxes etc

[13:28] oola Neruda: I am currently reading PERIL by Woodward and Costa.... and it is enough to make you want to change planets

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:29] oola Neruda: first thing trump did when he got office was to lower taxes on the super rich

[13:29] herman Bergson: Then I was to quick to say that I wouldn't leave the planet, oola...:-)

[13:29] herman Bergson: I am reading it too :-))

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the will destroy the other planets too

[13:30] herman Bergson: But what is interesting to see is that  the basic political structure of society got shape around 1900

[13:31] herman Bergson: and that it all was focused on keeping the masses of workers in check...

[13:31] oola Neruda: yes

[13:31] herman Bergson: unions were a Amazon still today opposes the forming of a union among their workers

[13:32] oola Neruda: there were a few "businessmen" around who tried to take care of the workers they hired...

[13:32] herman Bergson: And Europe had a deep admiration for the American model.....

[13:33] oola Neruda: we have places in Rhode Island (where i live) that really did provide safety for workers as muche as they could.... yet, at the same time.... had children working in unsafe conditions...

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:34] herman Bergson: There occurs another interesting aspect of this matter to me....

[13:34] oola Neruda: it was a very mixed bag.... women workers had a dorm (sort of) and they offered lectures etc. to keep them entertained... but the hours were long and the work hard

[13:34] herman Bergson: 1880....the American model was greatly admired.....

[13:35] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is online.

[13:35] oola Neruda: and rules... rules... rules... to keep parents off guard so they would allow their daughters to work ... and live in dorms with other women

[13:35] herman Bergson: After WWII Europe built the welfare state to keep communism out and create some more equality and fairness

[13:36] oola Neruda: but not Russia...

[13:36] oola Neruda: was hard times there... stalin and lenin

[13:36] herman Bergson: then1880 -1980...exactly 100 later Europe again embraces the American model and neo-liberalism, trickle-down economics and the demolishing of the welfare state began....

[13:36] herman Bergson: Smaller market and so on and so  on

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): In russia this never happened indeed and the means of KGB ect lived on wich have culminated into what we see today.

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but now more and more start to see the reality and turn against putin

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): even a free market for hospitals

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some light maybe in the tunnel

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[[13:37] herman Bergson: al social and medical care, Beertje

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:38] herman Bergson: It is amazing to see this huge influence of the US on the Western world

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): privatizing everywhere

[13:39] herman Bergson: We had a social society....where solidarity and fair sharing were accepted virtues inpolitics

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): peoples education, future and health a cash cow

[13:40] herman Bergson: it is all gone and now we are stuck with this (American) greed and individualism and consumerism

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:40] oola Neruda: follow the money

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes oola, that has become of a democracy and freedom

[13:42] herman Bergson: and Tocqueville foresaw it....

[13:42] oola Neruda: unfortunately

[13:42] herman Bergson: 150 years ago!

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no one did anything to stop it or did not want to

[13:43] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita...but it all is so complex

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well thats true i guess

[13:44] herman Bergson: It is not just one button to push

[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i always think so. If the salaries of politicians weren't higher than, for example, those of a lawyer, then maybe only people who WANT to do it with heart and for the people would become politicians

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its not just about money or not

[13:44] oola Neruda: ego... for example

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm many now just do it for profit and high positions / status

[13:45] herman Bergson: Bergie. you immediately will hear the counter argument....if the salaries are so low the politicians are very susceptible for corruption

[13:46] herman Bergson: Pay them so much that money never will be an incentive....which is of course day dreaming ^_^

[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: meant it only in theory :-)

[13:47] herman Bergson: I have to search for it, but we all know the saying Money is the root of all evil....

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a classic say

[13:47] oola Neruda: and it is true

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:48] oola Neruda: the exact translation is ..... the LOVE of money is the root of all evil

[13:48] herman Bergson: In Atlas shrugged by Ian Rand there is that Francesco guy who has a holds tirade against this saying

[13:48] bergfrau Apfelbaum: that's not fair! but who could have changed it? is someone to blame Or does it just have to be that way so nobody gets bored..

[13:49] herman Bergson: What isn't fair Bergie"

[13:50] herman Bergson: I should try to find that passage again.....

[13:50] herman Bergson: But  did I read it or hear it as an audiobook...???

[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: well so much! like hunger and poverty, war usw

[13:53] herman Bergson: There is maybe one possitive effect of the Ukraine war......everybody is shocked   that such an atrocious WWII like war still can happen in a part of the world that believes it is one of the most civilized parts

[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: And politics could change that. The ones up there. together

[13:53] herman Bergson: Maybe they are shocked enough indeed Bergie

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): P gets everything he didn't want

[13:54] herman Bergson: Exactly

[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: since I was born. there was always war "somewhere". stupid stupid world! damn it all!

[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ...sorry

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:54] herman Bergson: it is true Bergie....

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed i never thought anything like that could happen again, another holocaust

[13:55] herman Bergson: There never has been a moment of 100% peace on this planet

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): human is the only animal who kills his own species

[13:55] herman Bergson: since the past millennium at least

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we are destructive indeed

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i dont get it

[13:55] herman Bergson: not true Beertje ...chimps do the same

[13:55] herman Bergson: even wage wars among each other

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well some other animals do it as well but not like we do

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok..

[13:56] herman Bergson: But the are 99% human in their DNA ^_^

[13:56] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (pictures monkeys firing at each other wich machine guns)

[13:56] herman Bergson: or visa versa :-))

[13:57] herman Bergson: only in cartoon movies Bejiita ^_^

[13:57] herman Bergson: So,,,I propose to end our discussion here in peace ^_^

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are animals with imagination, we can imagine to live  free and in peace

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least we are not destroying each other

[13:57] herman Bergson: Ready to enjoy a pleasant weekend

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this group

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as u said Herman, after all most people are after all ok3

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): after

[13:58] herman Bergson: They are....

[13:58] herman Bergson: Thank you all again...

[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....  


1005: Herbert Spencer...

 The most marvelous thing about these days is, that democracy is put to a test in real-time. What is happening in the US today is so much to what happened some 150 years ago.

Let's do some stocktaking. What do we have in store? Voting rights....expand them or restrict them....elite rule or mob rule....


A privileged elite, a ruling class against a call for equality... All men are born equal....the elite calls it a threat...socialism...communism


Equality... 'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.' (Animal Farm, George Orwell) are more equal than women, rich are more equal than poor, literates are more equal than illiterates?


These are the main themes of the ongoing debate, then and today. It is worth having a closer look at Herbert Spencer here. Really interesting fellow.


Herbert Spencer was an English philosopher, biologist, anthropologist, and sociologist (1820 -1903).


At the beginning of his intellectual career, Spencer believed that democracy and freedom were compatible. 


He believed that the working classes understood that a small government was to their advantage. Therefore, the extension of the right to vote would not threaten individual freedom. 


But in the 1860s, as Democratic reform became more likely, Spencer changed his tune. In his 1863 article, "Parliamentary Reform: The Dangers and Safeguards," 


Spencer elaborated on the danger to liberty a proposed extension of the right to vote posed. He was particularly concerned about the increased influence of trade unions. 


The mere existence of trade unions, he said, showed that workers held “incorrect” views about “fundamental social relations.” 


Their opposition to freedom of contract showed that they “misunderstood the nature of freedom".  In other words, such men "seem almost unqualified to guard their own freedom and that of their fellow citizens." 


Keep an eye on the historical situation. Huge masses of people were exploited under terrible living conditions by a small elite, that owned the factories for mass production. 


The ideas of Marx had come to the attention of the proletariat, to put it this way, and were educating the exploited masses.


By the 1880s, Spencer's concerns about the tyrannical tendencies of workers had developed into a full-blown fear of democratically imposed socialism. 


In his best-known and most polemical work, "The Man versus the State" (1884), Spencer presented his famous definition of "socialism," 


by which he referred to reform plans such as progressive taxation, as a system that inevitably led to "slavery," as it forced people to hand over the fruits of their labor to the government. 


"Every form of socialism involves slavery," Spencer wrote. "What is essential to the idea of ​​a slave? What fundamentally distinguishes the slave is that he works under compulsion to satisfy the desires of another". 


It does not matter whether his master is one person or a society. According to Spencer, state coercion was no less oppressive if it had been introduced with the consent of the population. 


It did not matter that these laws were imposed by a government that was accountable to the people. "The authority of a body elected by the People must be regarded as an unlimited authority as the authority of a monarch," he wrote.


And just as true liberalism in the past questioned the acceptance of unlimited parliamentary authority, so true liberalism in the present will question the acceptance of unlimited parliamentary authority, Spencer said. 


And what is true liberalism? It is a political ideology and a branch of liberalism that advocates free market and laissez-faire economics, civil liberties under the rule of law with an emphasis on limited government, economic freedom, and political freedom. 


Thank you for your attention again. 


Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Annelien de Dijn: "Freedom. An unruly history".  2020

TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

The Discussion


[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Jane, that is quite common

[13:29] herman Bergson: the given that organizations juridically can be regarded as a person

[13:29] Jane Fossett: but also-- women and Blacks were denied the vote

[13:30] herman Bergson: The "beauty" of it is that when this "person" commits crimes the individual decision makers/managers can not be held accountable....only the firm

[13:30] Jane Fossett: presumably because they lacked 'reason' to make a good decision

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:31] herman Bergson: What you hear in my words is an elite that frantically tries to keep hold of its privileges....

[13:32] Jane Fossett: not so frantic... the top 1% is doing very well

[13:32] herman Bergson: equality...THE cry of the Revolution.....was the most horrible term for the elite

[13:32] herman Bergson: progressive taxation.....!!!

[13:33] herman Bergson: mob rule supported by trade unions

[13:34] herman Bergson: workers held “incorrect” views about “fundamental social relations.” , Spencer said

[13:34] herman Bergson: What did he mean?

[13:34] herman Bergson: That the less fortunate in society lack the respect for the upper-class?

[13:35] Jane Fossett: yup

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the upper class kicking the others down in the mud as usual

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): STAY DOWN THERE! SPLAT! SPLAT!

[13:36] herman Bergson: Typical english class society

[13:36] Jane Fossett: every effort in US to tax the ultra-rich or eliminate 'frivolous' corporate tax deductions has been defeated in past 10-15 years

[13:36] Jane Fossett: rich get richer

[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes it is amazing.... they get rich by exploiting the society they live in but refuse to repay society for their opportunities

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and poor get poorer

[13:37] oola Neruda: my mother told the story of a strike in the early 1900

[13:38] herman Bergson: But that is the core of the liberalism that emerged in the 19th and 20th century

[13:38] herman Bergson: Hand off of private property

[13:38] herman Bergson: that is mine....

[13:38] oola Neruda: 1900's.... the men struck so the company hired a lot of Chinese immigrants to replace them.... the strikers set the mine they were digging coal from.... on fire.....

[13:39] oola Neruda: all of the Chinese died, of course

[13:39] herman Bergson: yes oola..

[13:39] herman Bergson: horrible stories

[13:40] Jane Fossett: unclear what the fix is

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)

[13:40] herman Bergson: The fix is to see that the profits you make are taken from the society you live in and give you that opportunity

[13:41] Jane Fossett: Congress wont do that

[13:41] herman Bergson: it means...profits are ok to keep your company alive and developing.....but the company should also contribute to the society it lives in

[13:42] Jane Fossett: Congress is funded by corporate donors and the ultra wealthy

[13:42] Jane Fossett: they dont pay taxes

[13:42] herman Bergson: no no...they start yelling immediately...COMMUNISM!!!

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly herman

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well thats true indeed

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh

[13:43] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.

[13:43] herman Bergson: But the only way to survive in this world is to share in an honest way with eachother

[13:43] oola Neruda: yes Jane.... funding via lobbyists

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): today the shareholders take all profit

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its not going back into the company

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the stock market rules

[13:43] Jane Fossett: Amazon apparently pays no taxes

[13:44] herman Bergson: companies buy their own shares to give their shareholders an even better dividend

[13:44] Jane Fossett: yes, oil companies are buying back stock.

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im not amazed and also they sacrifice their workers when a tornado hit forcing them to keep working instead of seeking shelter

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when i heard that story i said Ill never have anythoing to do with Amazon!

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lots of them died as the warehouse collapsed over them cause Bezos wanted a bit more profit

[13:46] Jane Fossett: sigh... I still like Amazon deliveries

[13:46] herman Bergson smiles

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I dont know if they have changed policies now. If they do I might do buisness with them but they have to change lot of stuff

[13:47] Jane Fossett: I'll write a note to Bezos

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what they have done so far is basically slavery. Not nice working conditions at all at the warehouses. Workers are monitired and cant even go to the toilet

[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes'I'll do too... ^_^

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats stories I've heard

[13:48] herman Bergson: Ok Bejiita

[13:48] herman Bergson: so...

[13:48] Jane Fossett: It seems the best we can do is advocate for better  , more equal rights and voting access

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:48] herman Bergson: waht we see is an elite that wants to protect its privileges

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:48] herman Bergson: limit voting rights

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): gerrymandering

[13:49] herman Bergson: is horrified by the idea of equality

[13:49] oola Neruda: agree

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly

[13:49] herman Bergson: That is the status of 1910...the basis of our present situation

[13:49] oola Neruda: however, it's "da thing" ATM

[13:50] herman Bergson: Limited government....also such a matra

[13:50] herman Bergson: yes oola....the debate has started all over again

[13:50] herman Bergson: the same argumetns are used as 150 years ago

[13:51] oola Neruda: sigh

[13:51] Jane Fossett: yes, herman is correct

[13:51] herman Bergson: social healthcare was qualified as collectivism, because socialism was not yet invented :-)

[13:51] Jane Fossett: In US we are still arguing for basic rights

[13:51] herman Bergson: today they yelll socialism or communism

[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes you are indeed..

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:52] herman Bergson: But I reaslly get sick of those Reps that call Dems communists.....

[13:52] oola Neruda: !!!!!!!!

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, that healthcare and education should just be for the ones who can PAY

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ssss

[13:53] herman Bergson: The concept of mutual social resdponsability, sharing etc.  is immediately canceled  as communism

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no solidarity to others

[13:53] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita

[13:53] Jane Fossett: Essential:: We all need consensus on fundamental ethical priciples for our societies

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i scream back to them EGOISM EGOISM!

[13:53] herman Bergson: Social solidarity has died in the 1980s when Thatcher and reagan introduced their neoliberalism

[13:54] Jane Fossett: that provides a ruler to gauge laws and policies

[13:54] herman Bergson: and the obsession with economic growth...

[13:54] Jane Fossett: <--agrees this is not going to happen

[13:54] herman Bergson: Indeed Jane....and that is lacking greatly today

[13:55] Jane Fossett: :-(

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:55] herman Bergson: Just imagine....

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed infinite growth is all mattering

[13:55] herman Bergson: in the 1980 we had a socialist prime minister....

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even its impossible

[13:56] herman Bergson: He sold his soul to the free market and neo-liberalism

[13:56] oola Neruda: I believe that so many of the people being taken advantage of do not have access to understanding how to combat this mess....

[13:56] herman Bergson: and even worse....

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed they are probably also brainwashed so they cant revolt

[13:56] herman Bergson: when he was no longer in politics....

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause they don't know the truth

[13:57] oola Neruda: they do not have money, organization among themselves, access to power... but mostly... understanding how the good old boy network works.... besides no access to it

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just as the elite wants it

[13:57] herman Bergson: this 'socialist' who came from the trade union became a board member of one of the biggest banks in the Netherlands!

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:57] Jane Fossett: and the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate...

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed oola

[13:57] Jane Fossett: (sorry)

[13:57] herman Bergson: That is why we need economic growth Jane, :-)

[13:57] oola Neruda: it takes "connections" to get ahead....

[13:58] Jane Fossett: :-) yes!

[13:58] oola Neruda: and too many have no idea who... or what... or how... to "plug in"

[13:58] herman Bergson: The 'fun' part of it is that this growth diminishes our globe

[13:58] oola Neruda: it takes money

[13:59] oola Neruda: indeed, herman..

[13:59] herman Bergson: Indeed oola, but do not underestimate the common people everywhere....

[13:59] oola Neruda: agree...

[13:59] herman Bergson: We may tend to believe that we are the smart ones who see it all....but that is a misconception :-)

[13:59] oola Neruda: but it was a scholarship that pulled me out of that mire

[13:59] oola Neruda: education...

[13:59] Jane Fossett: I am losing faith... but herman is right

[14:00] herman Bergson: Many people really see what is going on and what is going wrong

[14:00] herman Bergson: yes Jane it is hard to believe.....

[14:00] Jane Fossett: all we can do is believe in consensus

[14:00] herman Bergson: but sometimes you ar esurprised by some outcome of some  poll for instance....

[14:01] Jane Fossett: I have faith in Ukraine

[14:01] herman Bergson: yes...but the US first has to get rid of its internal antagonism...this stupid destructive partiality

[14:01] herman Bergson: Ukraine....

[14:01] Jane Fossett: YES if that is possible

[14:02] herman Bergson: When a Ukrainian soldier sees a fellow comrade die, he thinks....for him I kill 10 extra Russians

[14:03] herman Bergson: when a Russian sees a comrade die he think...OMG...I may be do I get out of this shit

[14:03] Jane Fossett: I believe in the unity of the Ukraine people and I love the support from Europe

[14:03] herman Bergson: you wonder who might win eventually?

[14:04] Jane Fossett: I hope the good people win.

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): me too

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): may the good side win in the end

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): both in US and also the Ukraine war

[14:04] herman Bergson: In fact the  Ukraine already has won.....

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): evil and greed have no place in this world

[14:04] Jane Fossett: we shall see

[14:05] herman Bergson: The whole Russian operation has turned into one big failure and disaster for the Russian army

[14:05] herman Bergson: The material losses alone are costing over a billion if not more

[14:05] Jane Fossett: Russians and Chinese still have much power.

[14:06] Jane Fossett: We need to support the will of the people

[14:06] herman Bergson: That is the point Jane...the Russians have demonstrated that they have volume indeed but no power at all

[14:06] herman Bergson: Ukraine would be overrun in three days....

[14:06] Jane Fossett: I hope that is correct.

[14:06] herman Bergson: Not even in three months

[14:07] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[14:07] oola Neruda: holding my breath... that Putin does not feel cornered to the point of ... not caring about oblivion

[14:07] herman Bergson: Ukrainians fight for their country and freedom, Russians fight becauser they are ordered to

[14:08] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and for money

[14:08] herman Bergson: some, yes

[14:08] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): many Russian soldiers did not even know they were going into a war., it was kept a secret to lure them in as cannon fodder

[14:09] herman Bergson: Well... I guess we saved the world again today....

[14:09] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes Bejiita

[14:09] Jane Fossett: :-)

[14:09] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a tragedy on both sides

[14:09] herman Bergson: So....time to close our discussion and wait and see what the future will bring

[14:09] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with Putin holding the strings to his marionettes

[14:09] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Herman

[14:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): something good for sure I hope

[14:10] Jane Fossett: Thank you, Prof Bergson

[14:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems to be turning the right way at least

[14:10] herman Bergson: We'll see much as we're  gonna see on June 9 in the US

[14:10] herman Bergson: Thank you all....

[14:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ill keep track in that too

[14:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now

[14:10] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[14:10] herman Bergson: It was a pleasure again.....

[14:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[14:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa great as usual

[14:10] Jane Fossett: :-)

[14:11] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting

[14:11] oola Neruda: good discussion... be well all...

[14:11] herman Bergson: I had the peculiar feeling as if I hadn't see you for ages.....

[14:11] herman Bergson: and it was just a weekend :-))

[14:11] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lot's of things happend during the week-end

[14:12] herman Bergson: True Beertje...that must be the cause....

[14:12] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[14:12] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): your thoughts were elsewhere

[14:12] herman Bergson: yes...something like that...

[14:13] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I have to go, i'm very tired

[14:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok Beertje

[14:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): night on u

[14:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[14:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs

[14:13] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Bejiita

[14:13] herman Bergson: Even things with which you seem  to be at peace, appear to have a clear impact

[14:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[14:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[14:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[14:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): take care Herman

[14:14] herman Bergson: You too Beertje

[14:15] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....