Thursday, May 12, 2022

1001: Freedom and Democracy...

 We have arrived at a difficult moment in history if it is about the concept of freedom, in particular the political freedom of the individual.


The basic idea is, that, the social animal homo sapiens is, he'll always live in groups. Within the group, there will be differences between the individuals.


Despite all these differences homo sapiens searches for a kind of social organization, that offers everyone equal chances within the group.


By the end of the 17th  century and the beginning of the 19th century, there had come an end to the dominance of absolutist kings and the like.


The old memory of how the Ancient Greeks organized their communities wasn't forgotten and thus got the debate about freedom and about democracy connected.


The basic idea is, that democracy is the best way to guarantee the freedom of the individual members of the community.


This guarantee is based on the acceptance of the maximum influence of all members of the community on how the community is governed.


The way this should be realized was clear. It should be based on the right to vote and the right to become elected.


And here we arrive in the 19th century where everything began to take shape, that is now the origin of the democratic system we live in.


The first striking observation is, that it all began on the American continent, where the colonists kicked out a king. We'll govern ourselves, thank you ....


The debate about how to establish true democracy in the American states is complex. The first issue already is, how much democracy do you need to guarantee the freedom of the citizen?


The answers run from none to maximum rule by the people, but the leading trend was to keep the mob as far away from the government as possible.


This shows clearly in the fact that the debate is dominated by the white male elite of the states.

The best example of this dominance is perhaps the creation of the Electoral College.


In the debates on how to select a president, one camp was dead set against letting the people elect the president by a straight popular vote. 


First, they thought 18th-century voters lacked the resources to be fully informed about the candidates, especially in rural outposts. 


Second, they feared a headstrong “democratic mob” steering the country astray. Remember? The dictatorship of the majority danger.


And third, a populist president appealing directly to the people could command dangerous amounts of power.


These were all privileged white men, who discussed this and had witnessed the cruel and bloody developments of the French Revolution and its rule of the people. They had a lot to lose.

However, Professor George Edwards III, at Texas A&M University, said: “The electoral college violates the core tenet of democracy, that all votes count equally 


and allows the candidate finishing second to win the election. Why hold an election if we do not care who received the most votes?

The basic principle of democracy today is that every citizen of society has one vote in an election, that is EVERY citizen with a passport.


If we skip all details of what happened in the period 1850 -1925 with respect to establishing a democracy in the US


and we apply this basic rule of democracy to the US today plus the Electoral College, plus the widespread gerrymandering, 


which is manipulating the boundaries of an electoral constituency) so as to favour one party or class


and we ask the question; Has the US become a fair and true democracy, my answer is definitely NO.   


Thank you for your attention again...


Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Annelien de Dijn: "Freedom. An unruly history".  2020

TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

The Discussion


[13:29] oola Neruda: agreed ... NO!!!

[13:29] herman Bergson: I knew you would say that oola....

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Yhank you Herman

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, and now we have Mr T blubbering about again how he have not lost lost and the election was all fake and rigged and he should had won BUAAAH BUAAAH!

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he cant let go of that !

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): which land has the best democracy?

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh

[13:30] herman Bergson: The US is a plutocracy that supports and keeps a minority in power

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:30] herman Bergson: Most of the European countries, I'd say Beertje

[13:31] herman Bergson: You may disagree with the dominating policies of the leading majority...but they are the result of a true democratic voting

[13:31] herman Bergson: contrary to what happens in te US

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we are not gerrymandering here for sure

[13:32] herman Bergson: Trump never won the popular vote and yet became president for instance, like Bush

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i had not heard of the term until the Trump chaos but that was also when i started to myself check into how the US political system actually was working and i was just WHAAAAT?

[13:33] herman Bergson: gerrymandering dates back to 1865 or so in Boston

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): omg

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh

[13:33] herman Bergson: it is as old as American "democracy "

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in sweden we would call this "valfusk"

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cheating

[13:34] oola Neruda: Boston was really bad... they would connect areas that were nowhere near each other as being a district

[13:34] oola Neruda: in the old days

[13:34] oola Neruda: don't know about now

[13:34] herman Bergson: There is an article in Wikipadia that explains its history...interesting stuff

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:35] herman Bergson: But don't forget....

[13:35] herman Bergson: Both parties in the US do it....this kind of cheating if they get a chance

[13:35] oola Neruda: nods

[13:36] herman Bergson: After every census, per 10 years the districts may be revised....

[13:36] oola Neruda: and some people use that as an excuse to keep doing it..."well, THEY do it... so i should?

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its just abut them not the people

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): power and MONEY

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as usual

[13:36] oola Neruda: follow the money...

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:36] herman Bergson: This year happens to be such a redistricting year....

[13:37] oola Neruda: and a much more ardent scale than usual

[13:37] herman Bergson: and there have been already lawsuits because the redistricting was so partial and unfair that they were forbidden

[13:38] oola Neruda: that does not comfort me

[13:38] herman Bergson: indeed oola....THIS is the chance for the Reps

[13:39] herman Bergson: I once hear a store where they drew a district line straight through a university sothat the dorms of the black students exactly fell in a district most unfavorable for democrat voters

[13:39] herman Bergson: story

[13:39] oola Neruda: grrrrrr

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): OMG! :(

[13:40] herman Bergson: the trick is to put a democrat oriented vicinity or in this case dorms in a district which has a Rep majority

[13:41] oola Neruda: nods

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so they get outdone

[13:41] herman Bergson: then the Dem votes wont have any effect on the outcome of the disctrict

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's insane

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now THAT is cheating! AND racism also regarding that dorm

[13:41] oola Neruda: should be illegal but...... but......

[13:41] herman Bergson: that is what they call democracy in the US Beertje

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): shudders9

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ssssssss

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they have no clu what democracy is

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:42] herman Bergson: it is really fascinating to learn all this about a country that claims to be the defender of the free world

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well democrazy for them is = communism

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): = bad

[13:42] herman Bergson: Excetionalism they called it

[13:44] herman Bergson: American exceptionalism is the idea that the United States is inherently different from other nations.[2] Its proponents argue that the values, political system, and historical development of the U.S. are unique in human history, often with the implication that the country is both destined and entitled to play a distinct and positive role on the world stage.

[13:44] herman Bergson: Just read this....

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the basic idea as i see it is: only if you are white and yucky rich you can can have any influence over the politics

[13:44] oola Neruda: agree

[13:45] herman Bergson: that was the case in 1850 and it is still the case in the US Bejiita

[13:45] oola Neruda: bribe the congress and senate to vote your way.....

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems so indeed

[13:45] oola Neruda: one by one

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause in US human value = wallet size

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it seems

[13:45] oola Neruda: yes

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also that u are white of course

[13:46] herman Bergson: There is one positive effect of Trump on me....

[13:46] oola Neruda: not all whites are respected

[13:46] oola Neruda: poor whites are not

[13:46] herman Bergson: I have been following American politics from day on etill today since he came on the stage...

[13:46] oola Neruda: they are to be manipuated

[13:46] herman Bergson: and I have learnt so  much about that country

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well thats the first thing, if u are poor its not matter if ur black or white u are worthless still, wallet size comes first, then skin color

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what does it mean to be poor in the US Oola?

[13:47] oola Neruda: exactly

[13:48] herman Bergson: You don't eant to know Beertje

[13:48] herman Bergson: want

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes I want to know

[13:48] herman Bergson: What does it mean to be poor in America, oola?

[13:49] oola Neruda: i cannot give you money standards... but if you have trouble finding housing, food, jobs, etc...and poor education comes with it.... the schools are not funded because the funds come from local taxes... but what is there to tax

[13:49] herman Bergson: no healthcare

[13:49] oola Neruda: they are given meniel jobs that nobody else wants to do

[13:49] oola Neruda: pay is very bad

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess its like where u see in films out on the streets in the slums sitting amongst oil drums with fire in them to keep warm  and smoke drugs all day till u die cause thats all u have

[13:49] oola Neruda: they lack training in whatever could pay more

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i hope its not that bad but close to i would guess

[13:50] oola Neruda: that is an exhageration of the issue, Particle

[13:50] oola Neruda: good for propaganda

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i hope its not THAT bad

[13:50] herman Bergson: working three jobs a day to make ends meet

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but still,

[13:51] oola Neruda: but I also know that some people eat city killed wild animals ... to feed their kids

[13:51] oola Neruda: lot of single parent homes.... and drugs etc contribute to that

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that sounds like what i described more or less

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): awful, no-one should have it like that

[13:52] herman Bergson: you have watched to many dystopian movies Bejiita

[13:52] oola Neruda: know a fourth grade boy in such a neighborhood who comes to school drunk.... vomits in the aile between the desks

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well what oola said there sounded dystopian to me

[13:52] oola Neruda: and children who as the it wrong to steal food when you are hungry

[13:53] oola Neruda: gangs.... they exist for a feeling of protection

[13:53] oola Neruda: because the streets can be very dangerous

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well u need to eat to survive,

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:54] oola Neruda: poor schools in poor neighborhoods or states.... prevent the attriculation to college

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its human nature, when u have nothing what do u do to survive in the end

[13:54] oola Neruda: yes

[13:54] herman Bergson: Heard enough Beertje?

[13:54] oola Neruda: there are actually children ...grade school children ... who kill other children\

[13:54] oola Neruda: sleep in the bathtub wo keep from being hit by a stay bullet

[13:55] oola Neruda: stray

[13:55] herman Bergson: It is not the American Dream that was told us when we were young

[13:55] oola Neruda: bars on the windows for protection... but the child asks... how can I get out the window if there is a fire... and bars on the window

[13:55] oola Neruda: and they need the bars in many neighborhoods...

[13:56] oola Neruda: in rural areas... drugs are rampant

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok this sounds just as bad as what i described. As said, if u dont have money in US ur not worth a shit. Human value = the value of your wallet. When in reality a human life is invaluable

[13:56] oola Neruda: i need to stop am getting depressed

[13:56] herman Bergson: not to speak of all the guns that are around

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u cant measure a life in money

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats what US do

[13:56] oola Neruda: oh yes... guns for sure

[13:56] oola Neruda: one parent in prison... so one is at home

[13:57] herman Bergson: There are postivie things too....

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i just hope something will make this change and soon

[13:57] oola Neruda: like banning books?

[13:57] herman Bergson: America has a decent president

[13:57] herman Bergson: It connected with Natto again....

[13:57] oola Neruda: with so many enemies...

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well we cant see into the future but I hope for the best

[13:58] herman Bergson: and American weaponry is very effective in Ukraine :-)

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa coming to good use i saw

[13:59] herman Bergson: The problem of the US is that it seems to be controlled by a minority...

[13:59] oola Neruda: propaganda is cheap... and available

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but someone would need to invent a targeted long distance missile that can be aimed right at Putin with good presicion

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the spider in the web

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): question is if u take out that monster, will the war end? well its him commanding everything and his goals alone so

[14:00] herman Bergson: Well....the world is as it let's end our discussion for today

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said we can only hope for the best

[14:00] herman Bergson: Thank you all again .....

[14:00] oola Neruda: ahhhh but his generals are beginning to disobey

[14:00] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa thats a good sign

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (continues cling hugging oola)

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[14:01] herman Bergson: the Russian losses in equipment and personel are disproportional and dramatic...

[14:02] oola Neruda: I doubt that he cares

[14:02] oola Neruda: except for his motives

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[14:02] herman Bergson: A few days ago...based n the information I found I calculated that an attack that lasted some 26 hours cost Russia more than 300 million euro of equipment...

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he have even put up now that Sweden is ruled by Nazis, that Astrid Lindgren and Alfred Nobel ect were nazis ect

[14:03] herman Bergson: in one day...!

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): creepy

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well he will not succeed

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): succed

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): evil have no place in this world

[14:03] herman Bergson: Whatever,,..but the costs are astronomical...

[14:04] oola Neruda: I hope the rumors about his health are true...

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): then there will be others to continue the war

[14:04] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i hope too Oola

[14:04] herman Bergson: Well Beertje...that is what we have to think about....

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Tkae out the spider , war ends, thats what i hope

[14:05] herman Bergson: Sure there is a group that wants to go on.....but that ONE PERSON that takes the lead...that is able to control....

[14:06] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes true it all started with 1 person

[14:06] herman Bergson: It was this ONE TRUMP person that eventually created the huge damage to the USS....

[14:06] oola Neruda: YES!!!

[14:06] herman Bergson: this ONE HITLER or STALIN

[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that one single person can do so much damage i still dont get

[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but it is the sad truth

[14:07] herman Bergson: I always thought...history isn't made by single persons, rulers dictators etc...

[14:07] oola Neruda: he mentioned how wonderful Putin is... a "genius" he said

[14:07] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders again)

[14:07] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Mr t?

[14:07] oola Neruda: and denied that Putin helped him in the election

[14:07] herman Bergson: but when the circumstances are right....this ONE  PERSON rises to the top and uses these circumstances.....and a lot of people follow such a person

[14:08] Wisdomseeker (lissena) is offline.

[14:08] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess that is the mechanism

[14:08] oola Neruda: my belief is that many of the decisions T made were suggested by Putin

[14:08] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes that's why I said that others will take over

[14:08] herman Bergson: He sees himself  as a Putin, oola

[14:08] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): That i would say sounds probable for sure

[14:08] oola Neruda: yes

[14:09] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Trump leaved the order from Putin

[14:09] herman Bergson: I understand Beertje, but I think that such exceptional persons are not easily found

[14:09] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Putin is afraid of Nato

[14:09] oola Neruda: yes

[14:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very afraid, he have threatened us with nukes several times  if we go into NATO

[14:11] herman Bergson: So..keep an eye on the news, keep defending democracy and its values and all will be well :-))

No comments:

Post a Comment