Wednesday, January 29, 2020

824: THE NEW PROJECT.... An Introduction

There is a strange side to the way we often think about ourselves. We were able to see that clearly in the previous project The Pessimist".
If you accidentally have forgotten what I mean, let me summarize it for you in a few words.
Some people tend to believe that everything used to be better. Everything was once beautiful and harmonious, now the sadness is everywhere. 
Others want us to believe, that this beautiful song of prosperity cannot last. Just 'wait and see.
We will soon be crossing some critical threshold, after which we will dive straight into the abyss. 
Or they claim that World history is one of eternal return. Fat years and lean years alternate with each other, 
just like war and peace, and the human condition always remains the same. Don't expect too much of it.
The Western European Enlightenment thinkers believed that mankind could improve his own destiny by gathering better and better knowledge of the world, 
that progress is not a matter of historical necessity, but of diligent human work. 
Forget it. We run and run, but we don't get a step further, just like hamsters in a treadmill.
I often wonder why people are so easily inclined to think negative about themselves, in their private situation and in a general antropological sense
Maybe it is our knowledge that we can succeed and fail and our inclination to zoom in more emphatically on our failures than  our successes.
A second observation is that most of the dominating religions describe man primarily as a loser.
Just think of that couple of losers in Paradise with whom it all began, not able to leave an apple alone.
In Islam man is nothing without Allah and his divine will.
And the few moments we are successful it is not us, who did it. No, we did it thanks to god's grace and help of the gods. We prayed for it.
It is time to change our attitude and the Dutch historian Rutger Bregman will show us the way this time.
Let me quote him at the start of this project:
-QUOTE- This is a (Project) about a radical idea. It is an idea that has scared the rulers for centuries. 
What religions and ideologies have turned against. Of which the media rarely report and history seems to be one long denial. 
At the same time, it is an idea that is substantiated in almost every field of science.

That is supported by evolution and confirmed by everyday life. 
An idea that ties in so much with human nature that it often doesn't even stand out. 
If we had the courage to take it seriously, it would seem: this idea could trigger a revolution. Turning society upside down. 
If it really penetrates you, it is even a life-changing medicine, which means that you will never again look at the world in the same way. 
The idea in question? 
Most people are OK.
Thank you for your attention......
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Rutger Bregman, "De meeste mensen deugen",, 2019

The Discussion

[13:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:16] herman Bergson: yes let it sink in :-)
[13:17] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the idea is that most people are ok?
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:17] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...but look at your the officials....what is their approach.....?
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not so ok
[13:18] herman Bergson: All people are frauds...
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): same here in the Netherlands
[13:18] herman Bergson: You have to check them, have them fill out forms to let them prove they are not fraudulent...or what is th eword
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa that sort of stuff
[13:19] herman Bergson: Here in the Netherlands we had a huge scandal....
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like they checked my bank account for money laundering while at same times the laundromats from russia and around there poured laundered money into the same banks leading to a huge scandal
[13:20] herman Bergson: based on the assumption that people are committing fraud....which was not the case at all
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with no control what so ever
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): from the banks
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but me they should check
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): threatening to terminate my account otherwise
[13:21] herman Bergson: is a basic assume that the other is cheating and committing fraud [13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well of course they don't know wo I am ( I could be a mafia boss for sure but what is the probability of that really)
[13:21] herman Bergson: It's a relict of the believe that we are all sinners by nature
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but since they can't get to know ever single person they (as we say here in sweden) pulls everyone over the same comb
[13:22] herman Bergson: The bible teaches us that we are sinners and have to do our best to do something good...we evben may succeed if we are lucky...
[13:23] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita
[13:23] herman Bergson: And imagine that the basic idea of the bible had been that we were all good by nature and now and then unfortunately make mistakes....
[13:23] herman Bergson: what religion would we have had then?
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): people would have smiled more
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:24] herman Bergson: I'd say so too Beertje :-)
[13:25] herman Bergson: but it is a basic rule of psychology.....
[13:25] herman Bergson: just ell the person that he does everything wrong......
[13:25] herman Bergson: and then tell you did is the reward...
[13:25] herman Bergson: that is how to control people
[13:26] herman Bergson: We are all sinners and the reverend tells us how we can be less sinners :-)
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its about getting everything for yourself and show everyone else down the drain by telling them they are worthless liars and assholes
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like the bank directors make sure they can shower in champagne in their luxury apartments
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and even worse, dudes like Trump Putin and Erdogan
[13:28] herman Bergson: so...we have to find evidence that this point of view is wrong....
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its about power
[13:28] herman Bergson: we have to turn the tables.....
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:28] herman Bergson: Oh yes Bejiita...
[13:29] herman Bergson: Downplay the other and you are in power over him
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman got to run - have a good night all ( or day)
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki Ciska
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu
[13:29] herman Bergson: Eventually it is about a positive belief in mankind
[13:31] herman Bergson: So...that is what ahead of us.....hope you like the idea :-)
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:31] herman Bergson whispers: thnks for the cheering :-)
[13:31] CB Axel: You're going to make us believe in the good of mankind?
[13:31] herman Bergson: Gonna give it a try, CB  :-)
[13:31] CB Axel: :)
[13:32] herman Bergson: Ok....has to be with documents and witnesses ,,,, to prove my point :-))
[13:32] herman Bergson: otherwise it is a sham project :-))
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): try to make us believe that Herman, i don't right now
[13:33] herman Bergson picks up the glove and accepts the challenge
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i hope you win :)
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:34] herman Bergson: We'll see...but you know...I am an optimist :-))
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok try me on krump, im on!
[13:35] CB Axel: I do think most people start out good. They get corrupted, though.
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:35] herman Bergson: that is Rousseau, CB :-)
[13:35] herman Bergson: Culture corrupts...we should stay pure and natural :-)
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well no one is born evil I think, but however we are born with a personality
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some people gets more aggressive the others genetically maybee
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no idea but
[13:37] herman Bergson: true Bejiita, but we shouldn't look at deviating individual people here but at society as a whole...
[13:37] herman Bergson: Take traffic.....
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:38] herman Bergson: what do we learn about it....? The number of accidents....
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): road rage, aggressive/drunk driving
[13:38] herman Bergson: but they don't tell that 96% of all cars on the roads travel without accidents....millions of cars
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone is offline.
[13:39] herman Bergson: give the perfect immediately mention misbehavior, Bejiita
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): most indeed drive properly and carefully including about everyone around me and that make me feel safe on the road, all seem to know both the risks and rules, then we ave the ocassonal idiot
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but they are few indeed
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so I feel safe on the roads in general
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when im out rolling
[13:39] herman Bergson: That is how we are educated....we LOVE tv programs about car crashes and policing on the roads...
[13:40] herman Bergson: Showing for an hour how smooth traffic flows is soooooo boring.....
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and watching dashcam videos of Russians crashing all over youtube picturing russians as totally careless drivers in general
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): crash boooom bang
[13:41] herman Bergson: lol...I love those youtube movies Bejiita :-)
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehee
[13:41] herman Bergson: They drive like idiots
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they are not careless about everything,, they care about wodka:)
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well they have given me some "but what the hell are you doing!" moments
[13:42] CB Axel: Really? I think watching cars moving on a road, merging into traffic, changing lanes, acting like a fluid is a little interesting.
[13:42] CB Axel: I wish I had studied fluid dynamics.
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe aaah yes
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that can be true indeed
[13:42] herman Bergson: Bu tif you go with that flow, you would think that all Russia is one big car crash junk yard....which is NOT the case
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:43] CB Axel: As for crazy drivers and crazy traffic, Italy looks to be totally insane. :)
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): looking like after ive played a round of GTA (colecting cars in a heap and blowing them up)
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:43] herman Bergson: time I'll search  for Italian dash cams :-))
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe ok
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or Paris crasshcams:)
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): dash cams
[13:44] CB Axel: Just stand on the side of a street in an Italian city and imagine trying to walk across.
[13:44] herman Bergson: DON'T!!!!
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:44] herman Bergson: ^_^
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahah
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well can be sort of chaotic all time I guess and everyone going BEEEEEEEEEPPPP BEEEEEEEEEEEEEP!
[13:45] herman Bergson: I guess the goal of our new  project is clear.....
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:46] herman Bergson: Let's see how far we can get.....^_^
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sure
[13:46] herman Bergson: If all questions and remarks are exhausted...let's dismiss class :-)
[13:46] herman Bergson: Thank you all again...:-))
[13:47] bergfrau Apfelbaum: nice positive project :-) thank you Herman and class!
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki now im gonna continue developing my Trump dance and drive Mr trump mad with it
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:47] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman. See you Thursday.
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[13:47] herman Bergson: Good luck Bejiita :-)
[13:47] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol Bejiita :-) have fun
[13:47] herman Bergson: See you, CB :-)
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu thursday (if im not on dance workshop that day, there is one that day too and a bit later but I tink ill make it)
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): don't break your legs tonight
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill try
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:48] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I mean can be tricky to make Trump mad (or not probably)
[13:48] herman Bergson: Stay in one piece Bejiita ...don't krumble :-)
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): heheh
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs all
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he is mad easily

Sunday, January 26, 2020

823: The Treadmill Pessimist.....

Today the fourth and last type op pessimist,  The Treadmill Thinker.
The treadmill thinker recognizes the objective standards of progress: 
more wealth, less violence, a longer life, but believes that, despite everything, we are in a kind of standstill in one way or another.
In the economy, treadmill thinking is primarily associated with the Easterlin paradox. 
People in rich countries do not feel happier than people in poor countries, economist Richard Easterlin noted in the 1970s 
and the level of happiness in Western societies has barely risen in the last two centuries. 
We run and run, but we don't get a step further, just like hamsters in a treadmill.
In the meantime we now know that money to some extend does make people happy, but the treadmill thinkers continue to persist in pessimism. 
A completely different variant of treadmill  pessimism is found in "social justice warriors". 
A defense of moral progress, for example in the fight against racism, works like a red rag on a bull in those circles. 
According to them, we have hardly made any progress. One moral evil may have disappeared, but it has been exchanged for another that is just as bad. 
The undisguised and raw racism of the past has been reduced, but it has been replaced by implicit or systematic racism. Take for instance gerrymandering in the US.
Gerrymandering is a practice intended to establish an unfair political advantage for a particular party or group by manipulating district boundaries. 
People crush each other's skulls less often than in the past, but instead we get 'rudeness': rude behavior, trolling, online bullying. 
We enjoy unprecedented freedom, but suffer from choice stress. Just like cyclical thinking, treadmill pessimism can undermine the motivation to create a better world. 
If one evil , like racism, oppression or§ violence, is always again exchanged for another, we might as well stop fighting. 
Racism is then a predominantly insoluble system that has penetrated all pores of our society.
 A similar point applies to people who still believe in the Easterlin paradox. 
If wealth does not make us happy, then it makes no sense that poor people rise to our level of prosperity. 
Then you might as well remain poor and unhappy instead of being rich and unhappy.
The idea of ​​progress was invented in the West, as Kishore Mahbubani writes. 
The Western European Enlightenment thinkers believed that mankind could improve his own destiny by gathering better and better knowledge of the world, 
that progress is not a matter of historical necessity, but of diligent human work. 
We have already made enormous progress, but we are far from living in the 'best of all possible worlds'. 
The methods of science, free market and liberal democracy are our best hope of creating an even better world. 
When will Westerners regain their belief in progress? It is time that we shift our attention to the Optimist.
Thank you for your attention...

Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Dagblad TROUW (2019)

The Discussion
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still reason for hope
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hard tho
[13:19] herman Bergson: There is Gemma ^_^
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Been running on a treadmill before today but not a threadmill pessimist I think, well a little maybe
[13:20] herman Bergson: Maybe the following project will bring some hope :-)
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what will that be?
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sometimes it can indeed feel like we just move in cycles but something I happening
[13:20] herman Bergson: About the Optimist, Gemma :-)
[13:20] CB Axel: This is the kind of pessimist I am, but I have a tiny bit of hope.
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ahha
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:21] CB Axel: Check with me again after the election. :)
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wonders how cb will do with that
[13:21] herman Bergson: Crossed my mind CB
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): more worried than before about that election
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I was really optimist
[13:21] herman Bergson: I am wondering tho....
[13:21] CB Axel: If Trump stays in the White House AND if the Senate remains Republican, that will be the end of any hope I have.
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but have been watching fox news lately
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): scary
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not budging
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is sl better than this morning?
[13:22] CB Axel: Are Europeans more optimistic that I am?
[13:22] herman Bergson: Maybe we underestimate people.....and are easily inclined to believe that in general they are stupid
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed, we have the worlds biggest lier in the white house who also claims that its everyone else ho lie and he have it all right and that they all are babies when its he who is the baby
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a gigant fat baby
[13:23] herman Bergson: I guess I am more optimistic than you are CB
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): howling all he can when he don't get as he wants
[13:23] Anna Adamant Albion (anna.adamant) is online.
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): anyone is
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:23] CB Axel: lol
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): WAAAAAAHAHHHHH!
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (sighs)
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well only time will teell
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill hope for the best
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that he gets kicked out
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): trying to be as optimistic I can
[13:25] herman Bergson: As Shiff said....if this behavior will not be impeached WHAT ever can there be impeached anymore in a presidents behavior
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:25] CB Axel: I have to get my state of mind improved soon.
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:25] herman Bergson: That is what Reps have to ask themselves sincerely!
[13:26] CB Axel: I'm going to our state capital in February for a press conference for the introduction of a bill for medical aid in dying.
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): waits to see what happens after the trial is over and he is COMPLETLEY EXHONORATED!!
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:26] CB Axel: LOL
[13:26] herman Bergson: That would be an absurdity....
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes it will
[13:27] herman Bergson: The end of credibility in American politics
[13:27] CB Axel: If I could find any sincere Republicans I'd kiss them.
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is forever impeached no matter what the verdict is
[13:27] herman Bergson: The whole word would laugh at the silly Americans
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): except
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Putin
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well he will laugh too
[13:28] herman Bergson: He will be laughing loudest Gemma.....he won!
[13:28] CB Axel: If only we could convince Trump's base that the world is laughing.
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but with a different attitude
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the others laugh as we are idiots
[13:28] herman Bergson: right
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): trumps base has no idea there ia another world
[13:29] herman Bergson: So we definitely need a project on optimism and positive belief in man
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right!!!
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: hopes we dont laugh at that
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (imagines trump being rolled out in a gigant pram from court to jail  howling like a well gigant baby while throwing toys around)
[13:30] herman Bergson: Classic stand Gemma....the optimist is simple naive :-)
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that would be a sight
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well that will take years but will happe
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): happen
[13:30] CB Axel: He won't go to jail until he's out of office.
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:30] CB Axel: Then I hope the Southern District of New York nails him.
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right!!!!!!
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think they are waiting!!!!!
[13:31] herman Bergson: How many lawsuits are running against T at the moment.....30+ ?
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (imagines trump climging to desk while they try pull him out) I DONT WANNA GO I  DONT WAAAAAAAHHH WAAAAAAHHHH!
[13:31] CB Axel: Me, too. I picture them drooling in anticipation.
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): more i think
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Bejiita
[13:32] herman Bergson: As you may have noticed...the pessimist theories are very familiar....
[13:32] CB Axel: There's a whole Wikipedia page regarding lawsuits against Trump.
[13:32] herman Bergson: oh wow...interesting...
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:33] CB Axel:
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well  i picture some people with guns lined up around the white house if he loses
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): facing out
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well there should be a view, half of them lies of different form and BS talking and boasting
[13:33] herman Bergson: The present situation is a nice test to test your go for doomsday or the victory of rationality
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (checks the interesting list with a smirk)
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or fingers crossed
[13:34] CB Axel: Here we are talking about Trump again. I guess we have to wait until discussing optimism before we talk about anything/anyone else. :)
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well lets hope for the best, thats all we can do
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe we should make a new rule
[13:34] herman Bergson: And as an optimist I still have hope for the American people and their ability to be rational and use common sense
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa true
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i do too until i watch fox
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): something have to change now to the better
[13:35] herman Bergson: I only see one problem that is so deeply embedded in that culture.....
[13:35] herman Bergson: the fear to become a loser.....
[13:35] CB Axel: Rationality and common sense don't help when  one side cheats.
[13:35] herman Bergson: Some will do anything to prevent that to happen to them
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he is already a loser
[13:36] CB Axel: They gerrymander, suppress voters, lie, let Putin lie for them... the list goes on.
[13:36] herman Bergson: If the cheating is exposed you still can be optimistic CB :-)
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now might be going after medicare
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): news
[13:36] CB Axel: It's hard to get voters who have been kicked off the voter rolls back on to vote.
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and another tax cut lolol
[13:37] CB Axel: It's hard to overcome the gerrymandering.
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very
[13:37] herman Bergson: I must say, that gerrymandering you have invented in 1812 is really a beauty in cheating
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg yes
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:37] CB Axel: Our votes don't count, so there isn't much we can do.
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well did not start out that way
[13:37] CB Axel: I will vote. I have to try. But I am pessimistic.
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:38] CB Axel: Gemma, you're forgetting about how they're getting rid of clean water regulations.
[13:38] herman Bergson: Also a pessimist can vote, CB :-)
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh no i am not
[13:38] CB Axel: If they can't gerrymander us out of the voting booth they'll poison us.
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): adn possible allowing of blueprints etc for plastic make at home guns now
[13:39] CB Axel: But if they have taken away our right to vote or have changed who we can vote for, voting won't change anything.
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so many good regs gone
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): even going after the school lunch regs
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): school lunch
[13:39] CB Axel nods
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to loosen the good foods put in
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): amazing stuff
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): replacing with  trans fats and shit again?
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): anything that has the Obama fingerprints
[13:40] herman Bergson: I guess that is Misses DeVos her work?
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): male or female obama
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): she is a piece of work!!!
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): here in the Netherlands we don't have school lunch the children have to take their lunch from home to school
[13:41] herman Bergson: Right
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is good but the reason it was started here beertje was for the childrne  who HAD no vood at thome
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): food
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): truely
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): imagine
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): teh so called greatest country i n the world
[13:42] herman Bergson: Well...maybe rare, but it happens in The Netherlands too
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but that is no reason to feed the children with unhealthy food
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it was not all unhealthy
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): truly
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but M obama wanted more fresh fruit and veggies
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not unrecognizable meat
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yak
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and fries
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the fast food is an issue, sure I can eat KFC and McDonalds now and then but not ALL the time like many over there seem to do = walking bowling balls
[13:43] herman Bergson: We know that the general policy of the Trump team is to abolish everything Obama achieved
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): fries at school?
[13:43] CB Axel: Remember when Reagan declared ketchup a vegetable?
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): from the very first day
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I'm Sorry! to say I do lol
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then sit and zap the tv all day with no activity else
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): this is the same
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ketchup CAN actually be really healthy because the nutrients in the tomato gets released when processed
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its the sugar that is the problem
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that they add
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): too much sugar yes
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I actually think the ketchup with less sugar is tastier becaue the sugar drench the flavour often same with soft drinks
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they would be tastier if a litle less sweet, the flavour components come out better
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): soft drinks, fries, ketchup......omg
[13:46] herman Bergson: Take tomato paste, add some vinegar and spices and you have perfect ketchup :-))
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and now I got hungry so gonna go and grab a pie from the fridge
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok if you say so
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): after all threadmill running before
[13:46] herman Bergson: Ok Bejiita....
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:47] herman Bergson: To prevent that this class will end in a cooking class let's close our discussion :-)
[13:47] CB Axel: lol
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I mixed taco ketchup recently
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yum!
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok!
[13:47] herman Bergson: There we go...!
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe time to get a snack everyone!
[13:47] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ok let's go make ketchup :-) thank you Herman and class!
[13:47] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

Thursday, January 23, 2020

822: The Cyclical Pessimist....

The cyclical pessimist does not dispute that things are going pretty well at the moment, but that our modern progress is unique. 
World history knew more of such periods of relative prosperity and peace, according to the cyclical pessimist, but they will end sooner or later. 
World history is one of eternal return. Fat years and lean years alternate with each other, just like war and peace, and the human condition always remains the same. 
Now we seem to be doing well, but in the face of history that is just a local swing, a wave on the water. 
The prototype of the cyclical pessimist is the German historian Oswald Spengler (1880 - 1936). 
In his infamous book "Decline of the West " from 1918, Spengler describes civilizations as living organisms. 
Just like animals and plants, they grow up, reach adulthood and then die. 
The lifespan of an average civilization is, according to Spengler, a few thousand years, and the western civilization 
was at the beginning of the twentieth century in the winter time, the last stage before the downfall. 

You can reread this in our lectures 732 to 736 of our previous project at
Apart from the contemporary followers of Oswald Spengler, such as the cultural pessimist Sid Lukkassen, a Dutch political philosopher and writer, cyclical pessimism is now emerging in a completely different form.
 A good example is the book "The Invisible Hand" by economist Bas van Bavel, a Dutch historian and professor at the university of Utrecht. 
Van Bavel discovers a cyclical pattern in the life of market economies, which leads to an ominous picture of the future. 
Just like previous market economies, ours will perish again. 
The first symptoms of decay, such as the concentration of wealth in a small elite, are now already visible. 
The cyclical school of pessimism and the 'Just-Wait-And-See' school partly overlap. 
Both have the prospect of a period of downfall and decline, but with 'Wait and See' thinkers it is usually a lot more dramatic and abrupt.
Cyclical thinkers speak of decadence and slow decay, 
"Just wait" doom thinkers think of a sudden collapse. 
The danger of cyclical thinking is above all that it can quickly turn into cynicism. 
Anyone who believes that our prosperity and peace can continue, if we take a good approach, is naive in the eyes of cyclical thinkers. 
They see the bigger picture: the graphs are going up today, but tomorrow they will inevitably go down again. 
Prosperity comes and goes, like the tides of the sea.
Thank you for your attention again .....

Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Dagblad TROUW (2019)

The Discussion

[13:17] herman Bergson: Question you really believe this....
[13:18] herman Bergson: Why is there this inclination to believe that it cant go on this HAS to collapse..
[13:18] herman Bergson: that is what the pessimists expect...
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and WW3 will soon start and everything terrible will again repeat itself and ON AND ON
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like that
[13:19] herman Bergson: Exactly Bejiita.....
[13:19] Al Michigan: but, mr berson, what about a cyclical optimist, if they do not excist, their counterparts wont exsict either, or...?
[13:19] herman Bergson: So weird....but people seem to expect it.....
[13:20] herman Bergson: Cant be true that things go so well for such a long time...
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): esp now with Trump as president but at least he have not managed to start WW3 yet even if he in my eyes is a little like Hitler. a dangerous ego spreading a hate mob
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and for now all seems stable
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): after what he did with Iran before
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so id say there is still hope
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that the cucle will not repeat and all will continue on calmly and in peace
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cycle
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but I was a bit worried a while there
[13:22] herman Bergson: Let's leave Trump inthe refrigerator todaym, Bejiita...I am dine with that theme  :-)
[13:22] Al Michigan: hitler was a person who brought everyone behind one goal, he was a uniter ( with a vitim), trum is divider
[13:22] Al Michigan: trump is therefore no hitler.
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well there are differences for sure
[13:22] Al Michigan: opens refrigerator.
[13:22] herman Bergson: No Trump issues here today please...leave that to the Americans....
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but in any case I think (and hope) that everything will continue on and not go down in a bad cycle again
[13:23] CB Axel: I don't think I'll live long enough to see the cycle swing upward again.
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but I get the cyclic idea and how it indeed is similar to the "just wait" peimist
[13:23] herman Bergson: That idea of cycles is just a human construct.....
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its probably because there have been cycles before that they think it have to repeat again
[13:24] Al Michigan: i think  the cycle has a real reason,  and is not a cycle at all, i think it is because it is so hard to educate your kids the same way as you was raised yourself, because the experiences differ, youngsters cannot have their parents experiences.
[13:24] herman Bergson: there aren't no laws  of physics that corroberates such an idea
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like dinosaur extinction, WW1, WW2 etc with prosper periods in between
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): up and down
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats my theory
[13:25] Al Michigan: if the students off today had had a life like mine, they would not be snowflakes.
[13:25] CB Axel: Like the tides, I think the ups and downs happen at different times in different places.
[13:26] CB Axel: Just because it's going down where I am doesn't mean it's not going up for someone else.
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes CB...things go well ao worse...but there is no lawlike structure in it in my opinion.....
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:26] herman Bergson: It just depends on accidental circumstanses
[13:27] Al Michigan: yeah cb, huge societies learn from each otyher... as a result,  in India they ll learn also how to make tuff cheap , as the chinese are now  getting their oen china in africa, afrika is going to  be the  new china, especially for china it self
[13:27] herman Bergson: Sociologist try to find such "laws" and never found them,, I'd say
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:28] CB Axel: So it has nothing to do with wealth gaps?
[13:28] herman Bergson: Could you, please , stick yt our rules Al...see the sign on my pulpit here and read the rules
[13:29] herman Bergson: What do you mean CB?
[13:29] Al Michigan: what did i do now?
[13:30] herman Bergson: You didn't read our rules of engagement, Al
[13:30] Al Michigan: i did!
[13:30] CB Axel: I'm not a historian, but it seems that some societies fall when wealth is concentrated in a small number of people.
[13:31] CB Axel: The poor eventually rise up and change things.
[13:31] CB Axel: But, like I said, I'm no historian.
[13:31] herman Bergson: Then be more short in your remarks
[13:31] Al Michigan: i do not recognise that in history
[13:32] Al Michigan: the romans fell because their money lost all  value
[13:32] CB Axel: Not in the French revolution or the Russian revolution?
[13:32] herman Bergson: Interesting observation CB, becaue that is the criticism of today....
[13:32] herman Bergson: 2000 billionaires posses more than 60%+ of the wold population
[13:33] herman Bergson: Tha gap between poor and rich is increasing by the day
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly yes
[13:33] Al Michigan: yeah thatt gap goes faster and faster
[13:33] Al Michigan: goes =  grows
[13:33] CB Axel: I need to check the internet for instructions on how to build a guillotine.
[13:33] CB Axel: Maybe IKEA makes one.
[13:34] herman Bergson: YEs it has :-)
[13:34] Al Michigan: the wood they used is no onger easily avialable
[13:34] herman Bergson: One with a rost free blade :-)
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I have angle grinders
[13:34] Al Michigan: the blade just need enough weight,
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and I KNOW how to use them
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): !l
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:34] herman Bergson: Bu tthe revolutions you mention, CB,  complicated situations...
[13:35] herman Bergson: But in a way it is true that the rich ahd to pay...
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): french revolution repeat?
[13:35] Al Michigan: nowadays,m the rich are helped by  tons  oof minions
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the issue is they just never get happy and just want MORE MORE AND MOROORRRE! because its status they think
[13:36] CB Axel: I need to learn to knit and collect names to put into my knitting. :)
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh
[13:36] Al Michigan: the banks, cops army  government will all  defend them
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes...the problem is that to be rich is related to be powerful....
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:36] herman Bergson: always has been
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I just see them as boasters thinkig they are better then everyonel else because they have luxury cars and wash champagne down the drain
[13:37] Al Michigan: yeah ,  like Soros introducing Obama, and paying for his campaigns
[13:37] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita....
[13:38] herman Bergson: It is not the politicians that govern, but it is the big money that governs....
[13:38] herman Bergson: Politicians only rule where there is no profit to gain....
[13:39] herman Bergson: like in education or healthcare of military
[13:39] CB Axel: There is money to be made in all those.
[13:39] Al Michigan: yeah the whole education is now down the drain in the west
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but shouldn't!
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but it still happens
[13:39] herman Bergson: true CB....:-)
[13:40] herman Bergson: Just crossed my mind...
[13:40] CB Axel: That's why we have charter schools, private medical insurance, and military industries.
[13:40] herman Bergson: OK..You can impeach me CB :-)
[13:40] CB Axel: LOL
[13:40] CB Axel: Never
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha
[13:41] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again...:-)
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): great again!
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:41] Al Michigan: but the goverment see the c harter schools as a treat
[13:41] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:41] Al Michigan: threat
[13:41] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lets keep the optimism flowing
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): !
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:41] CB Axel: This may be the kind of pessimist I am.
[13:41] herman Bergson: Don't worry...Bejiita....
[13:41] CB Axel: I'll wait for the last one to decide.
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class! :-)
[13:42] herman Bergson: one pessimist to go and then a project on Optimism :-)
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and 4 different of these?
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sure
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:42] CB Axel: Will we learn what kind of optimist you are?
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time thursday
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:43] herman Bergson: Oh..I can tell you right now CB...:-)
[13:43] CB Axel: Can you let us guess?
[13:43] CB Axel: After the lectures? LOL
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye all
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu
[13:43] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye :-)
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Bejiita
[13:44] herman Bergson: Sorry, but there will be a whole series of lectures on optimism, CB :-))
[13:44] CB Axel: I'll wait to hear them all. :)
[13:44] CB Axel: In the meantime, I'll see you all Thursday.
[13:44] herman Bergson: You're welcome...and will live with a smile ^_^
[13:44] CB Axel: Bye
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye CB:)
[13:45] herman Bergson: Bye CB