Saturday, September 29, 2012

420: The Aftermath of Neoliberalism: science and statistical significance

Yesterday I ran into an issue which is a small detour of our present project , but yet closely related. Living in a world dominated by the belief in the free market means living in a world dominated by money.

We also live in a world, which is no longer dominated by all kinds of religious convictions, but by the rational insights which science offers us. At least that is what we believe.

But suppose, that a lot of science is corrupt? I mean, that the higher value of finding the truth about facts is replaced by receiving money to produce only favorable information about facts?

In other words, must we conclude that a lot of information with those appealing headings like "Researchers of institute so and so have discovered…" or "Recently discovered scientific facts show…" are a fraud?

But the science I am talking about is not mathematics, but I mean the sciences which are based on statistics, especially psychology, sociology and medicines. I'll tell you why….

The most commonly used statistical method is the p-test, and its origin lies in the year 1904. Place of action: the Guinness factory in Dublin. 

Guinness wanted to approach brewing beer scientifically  and therefore appointed the young chemist and mathematician William Gosset . 

Gosset focused on the biological variation of brewing raw materials such as barley and hops. The content of resins in the hops determines the taste and the stability of the beer, too much resin makes the beer undrinkable, and too little, too.  

Each hop flower has a different resin content, and when Guinness wanted to buy a wagonload of hop, they could not take measurements of each flower. 

Gosset found a way to calculate how many  hop flowers you had to analyze to determine with a given confidence how much resin the whole wagonload hop contained. 

When he reported: "There is a chance of more than 5% on average this party has too little resin", the sale was not on. By the way, his last statement is just a guess. Guinness never revealed their secret of how they actually selected their hop.

This statistical method was adopted by many sciences. Biology, psychology, environmental and health sciences would be helpless without statistics, and economics and sociology are leaning heavily on it. 

Drugs are allowed, dangerous substances prohibited, defendants sentenced to prison on the basis of statistical calculations. 

These calculations have become far more complex since  Gosset and his hop flowers, and they are only feasible using computer programs.

But here comes the catch. The p-test shows whether there is less or more than 5% chance that something is the case. Below 5% means that it is STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT, which means not just a coincidence.

Flawed findings, however, with respect to this 5% test, for the most part, stem not from fraud or formal misconduct, but from more mundane misbehavior: miscalculation, poor study design or self-serving data analysis.

 "There is an increasing concern that in modern research, false findings may be the majority or even the vast majority of published research claims," Dr. Ioannidis said. "A new claim about a research finding is more likely to be false than true."

Dr. Ioannidis is an epidemiologist who studies research methods at the University of Ioannina School of Medicine in Greece and Tufts University in Medford, Mass. 

In a series of influential analytical reports, he has documented how, in thousands of peer-reviewed research papers published every year, there may be so much less than meets the eye.

 "People are messing around with the data to find anything that seems significant, to show they have found something that is new and unusual," Dr. Ioannidis said.

In the U. S., research is a $55-billion-a-year enterprise that stakes its credibility on the reliability of evidence and the work of Dr. Ioannidis strikes a raw nerve.

Yes, a raw nerve, moral values like honesty, integrity, truthfulness in exchange for money. Money for more research, more spectacular "findings", more personal prestige.

We recently had that in the Netherlands too. Just a quote from the Dutch Wikipedia!

-quote- End of August 2011 close colleagues of the research group of Professor Diederik Stapelto reported to the rector of the University of Tilburg, Philip Eijlander, the suspicion of fraudulent activity in their searches.

About a week later, Stapel admitted that in some publications he had used fictitious data. Almost immediately Stapel was  laid off. A collaboration of three committees, with professors from Amsterdam, Groningen and Tilburg, led by psychologist Willem Levelt was asked to investigate exactly which publications were based on fictitious data. 

The committee reported that "it is a large-scale, long-term fraud on data, causing people and especially young researchers entrusted to him at the beginning of their career, to be deeply affected. 

This is extremely reprehensible behavior that science and especially the field of Social Psychology is highly prejudiced. "

"Money is the root of all evil", sung by the Andrew Sisters comes to my mind now and on the other had the fierce argument of   Francisco d'Anconia against this view in "Atlas Shrugged" (1957) by Ayn Rand.

The Discussion

[13:27]  herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^
[13:27]  Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::
[13:27]  Lizzy Pleides: Thank you
[13:27]  Kime Babenco: Fraud on evidence or proves, politicians know as well, remember how the war against Iraqi was started... a smoking gun which was never found
[13:27]  Debbie Dee (framdor): The golden rule of science: He who has the gold makes the rules!
[13:27]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the best thing is that with the computer it is now easier to find flawed studies
[13:27]  Qwark Allen: in another part of science, we see the same things
[13:28]  Umae Ying: the Koch brothers have funded the fraudulent claims that climate change is not happening... why? money
[13:28]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): especially medicines
[13:28]  herman Bergson: that is true Gemma..:-)
[13:28]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:28]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:28]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): those guys
[13:28]  herman Bergson: and an other thing....
[13:28]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): own the world!!!!!!
[13:28]  Qwark Allen: seems the results of investigation about global warming, were changed to, so it could fit in the dominant paradigm of global warming
[13:28]  Debbie Dee (framdor): And... have you heard the term data mining? Imagine how much data there is to mine now?
[13:28]  herman Bergson: all researchers that show the opposite that was in the news never reach the media...
[13:29]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well some do here now
[13:29]  Kime Babenco: Recently proves that rat eating genetically reforemed food was causing enormous cancers
[13:29]  Qwark Allen: the main scientist in a interview about said, some of the results were not included in the conclusion
[13:29]  Umae Ying: my friends are scientists in EPA... trust me... global warming is real...
[13:29]  Qwark Allen: means all the investigation is a non sense
[13:29]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:29]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): umae
[13:29]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no question
[13:29]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I also know global warming is very real
[13:30]  Qwark Allen: i believe in global warming
[13:30]  Qwark Allen: just not made by humans
[13:30]  herman Bergson: yes Qwark I agree :-)
[13:30]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not made but helped on by humans
[13:30]  Debbie Dee (framdor): There is a lot of evidence for global warming
[13:30]  Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:30]  Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:30]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): all the gasses
[13:30]  Umae Ying: yes... made by humans
[13:30]  Qwark Allen: thats what we can conclude by the results that were omited in the final conclusion
[13:30]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we emit
[13:30]  Kime Babenco: Indeed, some results are not included in the publishingh... That sounds like not truth,
[13:30]  Qwark Allen: CO2 is a fake
[13:31]  andra Lyvette is Online
[13:31]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you will see :-)
[13:31]  herman Bergson: Big bussiness Qwark..!
[13:31]  Umae Ying: is real
[13:31]  Bejiita Imako: i wonder more and more if what i hear in news ect are really true or fake
[13:31]  Qwark Allen: just another way for the same bankers to get more $ from our pockets without producing nothing
[13:31]  Debbie Dee (framdor): But there are many research reports that show the warming, polar ice is at its lowest
[13:31]  Qwark Allen: yes true
[13:31]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): *¨¨*<♥*''*BEJIITA!!! *''*<♥:*¨¨*
[13:31]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is why it is a good thing to look at many different sources
[13:31]  Qwark Allen: just not the CO2 is the respponsable
[13:31]  herman Bergson: hold on for a second....
[13:31]  herman Bergson: plz...
[13:32]  Debbie Dee (framdor): The CO2 is the main cause
[13:32]  Umae Ying: mixture of causes
[13:32]  Qwark Allen: npe
[13:32]  Qwark Allen: nope
[13:32]  Kime Babenco: There is of course a tend going on that everything has to go fast today... That leads to less observations and so to pre-judgments
[13:32]  herman Bergson: as I said HOLD ON for a second..:-)
[13:32]  Umae Ying: deforestation
[13:32]  Qwark Allen: you were made to believe in that by fake reports
[13:32]  Debbie Dee (framdor): qwark - read more. I've studied this for 10 years now
[13:32]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): thank you debbie
[13:32]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:32]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you try
[13:32]  Qwark Allen: maybe you should read about in independent news source
[13:32]  herman Bergson: ok...
[13:33]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I do.
[13:33]  Bejiita Imako: also all these panic alarms, now recently thay said eggs were dangerous
[13:33]  herman Bergson: statistically proven results need to be new research...
[13:33]  Bejiita Imako: and not long ago eggs was really healthy
[13:33]  Bejiita Imako: i believe the last one
[13:33]  Kime Babenco: Next week you read the contrary
[13:34]  herman Bergson: a lot of what is reported by the media is research results of one investigation only...
[13:34]  Qwark Allen: in the romans time average temperatures of the planet, were 4ºC above, what they are today, for example
[13:34]  Qwark Allen: and by the way you know , most of planets in the solar system are having global warming to?!
[13:34]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Not true qwark. give me a reference
[13:34]  Qwark Allen: maybe polar ice at Mars is melting cause of the SUVs there
[13:34]  Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:34]  Qwark Allen: lol
[13:34]  herman Bergson: Didnt I ask you to HOLD ON for a minute??? :-)
[13:35]  Qwark Allen: sry
[13:35]  Kime Babenco: As I tried tio say, the hunger for medai attention is so big that some resulyts are denied and hury to be the have an article in a famous magazine
[13:35]  herman Bergson: ok..let me try again...
[13:36]  herman Bergson: a lot of what is told in the media is based on one research....
[13:36]  herman Bergson: scientists so and so discovered this or that...
[13:36]  herman Bergson: that is nice but kind of nonsense...
[13:37]  herman Bergson: what you need is at least 10 reseachs projects using exactly the same parameters etc. to get to a real conclusion
[13:37]  herman Bergson: let me give you an example...
[13:37]  herman Bergson: that is how I got to this lecture...
[13:38]  herman Bergson: aspartame…a sweet substance...but a threat to the sugar industry...
[13:38]  herman Bergson: just do some research on it...
[13:39]  herman Bergson: I got the information that it damages the central nervous I did some research...
[13:39]  herman Bergson: because I consume products contianing aspartaam...
[13:39]  herman Bergson: what was the result?
[13:39]  Qwark Allen: o m g
[13:39]  herman Bergson: This lecture...
[13:39]  herman Bergson: all bogus...
[13:39]  Qwark Allen: aspartame, is another good example of misinformation
[13:40]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is true
[13:40]  Kime Babenco: 3d way of writing it
[13:40]  Qwark Allen: contains methanol, which is a poison for our body
[13:40]  herman Bergson: there is an institute in Italy that produced a report that aspartaam causes cancer...
[13:40]  herman Bergson: yes....Qwark...
[13:40]  herman Bergson: however...
[13:40]  Bejiita Imako: read u can use it as ant poison
[13:40]  herman Bergson: one...
[13:40]  Bejiita Imako: but wonder if thats true
[13:40]  Qwark Allen: all diet food and drinks have it
[13:41]  Qwark Allen: you know who as the patent of it, and who produces it?
[13:41]  herman Bergson: it is just  ONE research on a limited population of rats
[13:41]  herman Bergson: TWO...
[13:41]  Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩**✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩**
[13:41]  Lizzy Pleides: if something is a poison is a question of the dose
[13:41]  herman Bergson: some amounts of aspartaam the rats consumed equals about a hundred kilo a day in sugar for a human
[13:42]  Qwark Allen: i`ll get you a link, so you know who wants you to buy food with it
[13:42]  Bejiita Imako: sure its a chemical but sugar also is even if aspartam is synthetic,,, cant think its dangerous
[13:42]  Lizzy Pleides: sugar is a poison too if you eat too much of it
[13:42]  Qwark Allen: aspartic acid is also another poison for us
[13:43]  herman Bergson: A Dutch scientist we have a new sweeteetener...Servia...I thik it is called...
[13:43]  Qwark Allen: all 3 ingredients there are bad for the human body
[13:43]  Kime Babenco: Toxic things was always about the dose... This atmosphere is 80 % nitorgen and 20 % oxygen... Less than 1 % toxical gasses
[13:43]  herman Bergson: pure natural..from a south american honey plant..
[13:43]  Kime Babenco: 40 % of oxygen would kill you
[13:43]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): stevia
[13:43]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Stevia
[13:43]  herman Bergson: yes Gemma..:-)
[13:43]  herman Bergson: He said…just wait and see...
[13:43]  Lizzy Pleides: stevia, ... ewwwww
[13:43]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and now an other truvia
[13:43]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Truvia
[13:44]  herman Bergson: in a couple of years you'll find a website telling you that it causes cancer...
[13:44]  Bejiita Imako: salt too, we need it to survive but too much or too little is dangerois acuse our ion/water balance get wrong then
[13:44]  herman Bergson: time for a new sweetener on the market
[13:44]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well we went through the egg issue
[13:44]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): is now proven bogus
[13:45]  Debbie Dee (framdor): PVC is the one I worry about. We are in very close contact with it.
[13:45]  herman Bergson: Science has become business is some areas..that is th eproblem...
[13:45]  herman Bergson: What we valued for sale now
[13:46]  Ewa Aska is Offline
[13:46]  bergfrau Apfelbaum: sorry I have to go! a tenant needs my help, .... ty herman and ty class, see u next week! cheers, with red wine ;-)
[13:46]  Kime Babenco: I would like to say this : To everyone living ... life is a present... We have a nice planet... Why do we let it make destroy by fanatics or people who never have enough and never worked one hour for real ?
[13:46]  Lizzy Pleides: TC Bergie
[13:46]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well... i have to say truth has allways been for sale one way or another
[13:46]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Scientists do at least document stuff, so additional research adds to existing research.
[13:46]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): tc
[13:46]  herman Bergson: Yes KIme...good point!
[13:47]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is true
[13:47]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I have the feeling our planet is not good enough as it is
[13:47]  herman Bergson: And believe me we do a lot of other people are fighting for the same cause
[13:48]  Kime Babenco: What would you change aboyut the planet if you were able to do so ?\
[13:48]  Qwark Allen:
[13:48]  Qwark Allen: this one about the temperatures in roman time
[13:48]  Lizzy Pleides: I have to go too, good night everybody!
[13:48]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I don't want to change the way we live here.
[13:48]  Debbie Dee (framdor): bye lizzy
[13:48]  herman Bergson: OK QWark...and some other info about the statics and the Greek prof
[13:49]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Well, with 7 billion people, we do need to cut back a lot on consumption
[13:49]  herman Bergson:
[13:49]  herman Bergson: worth reading...
[13:49]  Kime Babenco: It's too much actually... to give everyone a decent life
[13:49]  Qwark Allen:
[13:49]  Qwark Allen: more about the same
[13:50]  herman Bergson: ok...
[13:50]  Qwark Allen: they lied , when they said we have now temperatures highest in the 100 000 years
[13:50]  Debbie Dee (framdor): qwark - 0.4 degrees is not significant.
[13:50]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): bookmarked
[13:50]  Qwark Allen: its a total lie
[13:50]  herman Bergson: Yes Qwark...I know...
[13:50]  Debbie Dee (framdor): you said 4 degrees. and it is a limited study,
[13:50]  Qwark Allen: if you read more reports you`ll see the variance goes from 1 ºC to 4 ºC
[13:51]  Rodney Handrick is Online
[13:51]  herman Bergson: Just keep in mind....
[13:51]  Debbie Dee (framdor): look at their graph and the averaged trend line
[13:51]  Qwark Allen: the point is, the temperatures by then were higher then now, and the CO2 levels were significantly less then today
[13:51]  herman Bergson: we need 10 equal studies of the same subject to come to e real conclusion..
[13:51]  herman Bergson: But there arent...
[13:52]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes. The more data the better. Right now the polar ice is failing quickly.
[13:52]  herman Bergson: besides that a lot of results are politically interesting for scertainparties
[13:52]  Jannah (jannahnura) is Online
[13:52]  Kime Babenco: Yes... Herman... 10 different (at least ) have to come to the same conclusion
[13:52]  herman Bergson: Yes Kime...and there aren't!!!
[13:52]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Also, any real chance of fixing the problems is bad for consumption, and business
[13:53]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:53]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:53]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there is the point of his lecture
[13:53]  herman Bergson: smile
[13:53]  herman Bergson: yes Gemma :-)
[13:53]  Kime Babenco: You see the weather predictions ? 3 different systems only And not agrreing to each other some times
[13:53]  Qwark Allen: i know what i going to say before check those links --> back in 1952-1954 there was global cooling! in a time heavy industries were at their max
[13:53]  herman Bergson: Yes Kime....
[13:53]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): weather and climate are two different things
[13:53]  herman Bergson: and the most important thing in this is ...they are based on COMPUTER MODELS!
[13:54]  Kime Babenco: THat's true... climate is the average over 30 years
[13:54]  herman Bergson: all is based on computer models...
[13:54]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah the class ghost
[13:54]  herman Bergson: what you put in you get out....that is the problem
[13:54]  JF (janfolkert.alter) is Online
[13:54]  Qwark Allen: one thing you have to realize, since co2 foot print is a business, and bankers are profiting with it. we should suspect of a scam
[13:54]  herman Bergson: TRUE Qwark !!!!
[13:55]  Kime Babenco: Therfore is the toilet invented ;-)
[13:55]  Qwark Allen: this goes in the corruption we were talking about in last class
[13:55]  Laila Schuman is Online
[13:55]  herman Bergson: Main point is that we are manipulated by the media and socalled scientific data and results...
[13:56]  Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:56]  Bejiita Imako: what can u really believe is true today
[13:56]  Debbie Dee (framdor): absolutely. and if climate change was not linked to consumption, then big business can carry on, and we can consume :)))
[13:56]  Qwark Allen: who are the owners of main media?
[13:56]  Bejiita Imako: worrying for sure
[13:56]  Qwark Allen: the same bankers
[13:56]  herman Bergson: Who are you to say that it is bogus when some computer model of the climate calculates that in no time our planet is all sea
[13:56]  Qwark Allen: eheheh
[13:57]  herman Bergson: the model is science...
[13:57]  Kime Babenco: In some way the band that sung Birth-School-Work -Dead is what the richer ones like us to live like
[13:57]  herman Bergson: Well..
[13:57]  herman Bergson: ok..
[13:57]  Qwark Allen: i`m getting your point herman, statistics nowadays are used as propaganda , so it fits the agenda of some ones
[13:57]  herman Bergson: I think we are ready for the revolution agian...
[13:57]  herman Bergson: so..
[13:57]  herman Bergson: thank you all for your participation :-)
[13:58]  Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!
[13:58]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:58]  Qwark Allen:
[13:58]  herman Bergson: class dismissed ^_^
[13:58]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye   
[13:58]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): for now
[13:58]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks herman. very thought provoking.
[13:58]  Kime Babenco: Only, the result of a revolution is not predictable
[13:58]  Qwark Allen: this video shows the most astonishing image of 2012
[13:58]  Rodney Handrick: thank you
[13:58]  Bejiita Imako: cu soon all
[13:58]  Qwark Allen: was taken by soho
[13:58]  Bejiita Imako: was really interesting as usual
[13:58]  Qwark Allen: check the time frame
[13:58]  Qwark Allen: its 3 days range of observation
[13:59]  Bejiita Imako:
[13:59]  Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•  Bye !  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜  
[13:59]  Qwark Allen: ¸¸.´ ¯¨.¸¸`** **´ ¸¸.¨¯` H E R MA N ´ ¯¨.¸¸`** **´ ¸¸.¨¯`
[13:59]  Qwark Allen: ty
[13:59]  herman Bergson: Bye Qwark :-)
[13:59]  Kime Babenco: Bye everyone
[14:00]  Kime Babenco: And bye Herman
[14:00]  Debbie Dee (framdor): bye herman...
[14:00]  herman Bergson: Bye Debbie

419: The Aftermath of Neoliberalism: the body as private property

The main goal of this series of lectures is to question the idea, that everything has a price, that everything eventually can be bought and sold.
What I mean to show is, that the belief in the free market has penetrated areas of life where it does not belong, like social and medical care, education, family life, the government and other areas.
Stated in other words: is the basic structure of our social world a matter of personal freedom, private property, production and the exchange of goods and services by buying and selling?
We already saw two examples which raised serious doubts: the libertarian view of self-ownership and values of fairness and equality which used to dominate situations, where we have to stand in queue.

In 1997 Barbara Harris founded the non-profit organization "Project Prevention". On its website its goal is formulated a little vague:

-quote- "Project Prevention does not have the resources to combat the national problems of poverty, housing, nutrition, education and rehabilitation services. 

Those resources we do have are spent to PREVENT a problem for $300 rather than paying millions after it happens in cost to care for a potentially damaged child." -end quote-

In fact is means, that drugs addicted women receive US$ 300 after they have let themselves sterilized, so that they never will give birth to another child.

From the perspective of the free market philosophy this looks like a sound enterprise. It concerns an agreement between private persons in which there is no coercion, but only freedom of choice.

As a free market transaction the agreement offers a profit for both parties and increases public welfare. The drugs addict receives US$ 300 for her or his reproductive capacity.

And the buyer get for his money the certainty that the addict won't put (disabled or addicted) children in the world anymore.

Everybody happy, it seems, but yet this project received a lot of serious criticism. Let us look at a few arguments against this market transaction.

Is the addicted really free in her choice? That addiction and poverty and the need for a new kick drives her to go for the money no matter what this will cost her, is one of the objections.

This means that to assess  the moral permissibility of a market transaction  we will therefore have to ask: Under what conditions offers the situation in the market freedom of choice and under what conditions do they exert coercion?

An other objection is that of corruption. It is not about the conditions under which an agreement is concluded, but about the nature of what is being bought or sold.

It is a perfectly free transaction when a thief gives money to a judge to "buy" a not-guilty verdict. What happens here is, that something is bought or sold, which not ought to be bought or sold.

Corruption is not only a matter of bribes. We also corrupt some object, activity or social behavior, when we put a lower price on it than is appropriate.

To give an extreme example: to sell your baby just for the money is corrupting what we value as parenthood and loving care for a child, 

because thus you treat your child only as a product in stead of treating it as a human being who is entitled to the love and care of his parents.

In this situation Harris regards the addicted mother simply as a malfunctioning baby machine. Women who accept the US$ 300 offer accept this humiliating judgement.

You could object that a judge sells a verdict, which you can not regard as his property, while a women owns her body and thus her fertility. Then it is a normal transaction, not corruption of a value.

This leaves us with the fundamental question: Are we allowed to regard our body as private property with which we can do as we please?

In this context I want to remind you of my previous lecture dealing with the libertarians concept of self-ownership. Is it morally justifiable to buy that second kidney of that man, who needs money to get his son to college?

The discussion

[13:26] herman Bergson: thank you ^_^
[13:26] Kime Babenco: Look what happened recently in that factory in China !
[13:26] herman Bergson: Ho Qwark :-)
[13:27] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•   Helloooooo!  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜  
[13:27] Qwark Allen: Hey!
[13:27] herman Bergson: sneaked in :-)
[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:27] Qwark Allen: seems i got here on time
[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:27] Qwark Allen: ehhehe
[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i did not even see him come
[13:27] herman Bergson: neither did I ^_^
[13:27] Qwark Allen: was fast ^^
[13:27] herman Bergson: anyway.....
[13:27] Qwark Allen: theme for today is corruption?
[13:27] herman Bergson: what is at stake here is the idea of buying and selling...
[13:28] Valcyrie: surrogate mothers
[13:28] herman Bergson: can we buy the fertility of a woman....or can she sell it actually
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Valcerie....that is a related issue...same problems
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): moral issue
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): wow
[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): Herman, you have clearly demonstrated that some things should not, morally , be bought or sold. Personal freedom of choice is compromised by the financial transactions
[13:28] herman Bergson: or selling eggs or sperm...
[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....
[13:29] Kime Babenco: Corruption is one of the hardest things  to get down...
[13:29] herman Bergson: But still there is a strong belief in the universla benifits of the free market....
[13:29] herman Bergson: and the idea that the government is the problem
[13:30] Kime Babenco: If the Police is corrupt then you are in a bad situation
[13:30] herman Bergson: yes Kime.....that is really bad
[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): Money is just so tempting, and it doesn't seem to matter if you already have a lot.
[13:30] Valcyrie: if you have no laws you are also in a bad way
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it is talked about every day here as the answer to everything
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the free market that is
[13:30] Kime Babenco: Politicians as well, though I hardly believe innon corrupt politicians...
[13:31] Kime Babenco: Maybe it's not called so, and maybe not immeadiatly money involved
[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes is a tough belief....
[13:31] Kime Babenco: But in some way
[13:31] herman Bergson: penetrating all areas of life
[13:31] Kime Babenco: Like if you help me here, I will help you there...
[13:31] herman Bergson: from a market economy we move to a market controlled economy...
[13:31] herman Bergson: where everything is for sale and canbe bought
[13:32] Qwark Allen: do you think corruption and free market are somehow "related"?
[13:32] Kime Babenco: I would ask if you could ver disconnect hose two ?
[13:32] herman Bergson: well..Qwark....if money is the only grease the machinery of society needs
[13:32] Kime Babenco: ever*?
[13:32] herman Bergson: Just take the bankers....
[13:32] Qwark Allen: i see your point
[13:32] herman Bergson: the are no crooks or corrupt..
[13:33] herman Bergson: but...
[13:33] herman Bergson: they say...
[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): The free market and corruption are completely related - free market means you can buy anything for a price
[13:33] Qwark Allen: corruption we know starts at the highest level
[13:33] herman Bergson: I can sell whatever derivatives I can sick they are whatsoever...
[13:33] Qwark Allen: true
[13:33] herman Bergson: as long as there is no rule which forbids is allowed
[13:34] Valcyrie: deregulation
[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): and even if the rule forbids it - it is done if profitable.
[13:34] herman Bergson: where then the question "Is it morally allowed too?" stays unanswered
[13:34] Qwark Allen: this means there are several kind and severity of corruption
[13:34] Qwark Allen: depending on the "goodies" being trade
[13:34] Valcyrie: and ways to get loopholes into laws when you have enough "influence"
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark.....
[13:35] Valcyrie: loopholes make corruption legal
[13:35] Kime Babenco: You might think the resident of USA is the most powerful person on Earth... He can't even pass the health care (or in a weakened version)
[13:35] herman Bergson: you could say that....
[13:35] Kime Babenco: He's a puppet on a string somehow
[13:35] herman Bergson: yes Kime...
13:35] Qwark Allen: seems nowadays its what governments are , in the habds of the bankers
[13:35] Qwark Allen: hands*
[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): And lawyers retained within large corporations, to persuade people that what they do is right, and lobbying to change laws to suit
[13:36] Kime Babenco: At to response to the question , in fact , almost everything is for sale... and that's a pity
[13:37] Kime Babenco: Morals and money does not combine very well
[13:37] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:37] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:37] herman Bergson: not only a debate on economics
[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): Moral values are easily corrupted by money. Everyone supposedly has a price.
[13:38] herman Bergson: That is what is happening Debbie.....
[13:38] herman Bergson: Even the chance that you die is worth a lot of money....
[13:38] herman Bergson: our death has become an economic value....
[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor): Corporations can do anything, including killing a few people, as long as they make a profit.
[13:39] herman Bergson: I'll get to that later but to give yo an example.....
[13:39] Qwark Allen: very expensive one for sure
[13:39] Kime Babenco: LIfe insurances... for example
[13:39] herman Bergson: Exactly Kime!
[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:39] herman Bergson: But even one step further....
[13:39] herman Bergson: Just leisten.....
[13:39] herman Bergson: listen...
[13:40] herman Bergson: I am going to die because of a fata disease....
[13:40] herman Bergson: say...I still have 1.5 year left...
[13:40] herman Bergson: I take a life insurance of 1 million dollar....
[13:40] herman Bergson: I cant pay the fee of course...]
[13:41] herman Bergson: but I sell this insurance to an investor for 500.000 dollar....
[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): (Laughing out Loud) herman
[13:41] Kime Babenco: If they ever find out you knew about it before you started it, it is invalid... not counting
[13:41] herman Bergson: He will pay the fees...till I die..then he gets the one million!
[13:42] herman Bergson: and I can have a happy ending spending 500.000 dollar in my last year on earth
[13:42] herman Bergson: This happens!
[13:42] herman Bergson: even worse....
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): sounds good to me
[13:42] Qwark Allen: goood stuff
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:42] herman Bergson: A lot of Aids patients did this....
[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and are still living
[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): Because we all dislike insurance companies, this seems like an appealing idea. And profitable. To hell with morals I say!!!!
[13:43] herman Bergson: but unfortunately for the investors there were developed new medicines...
[13:43] Kime Babenco: Insurances are not here to help you , but to collect money ! Just like other, like bankers... Most insurances are at banks by the way, which should not be...
[13:43] herman Bergson: which increased the life expectancy of th eaids victims....
[13:44] Kime Babenco: Bankers should be bankers and insuarnces , be insurance
[13:44] herman Bergson: Investors even started to send their "investment"
[13:44] herman Bergson: How do you feel today???
[13:44] herman Bergson: When do you think it will be over????
[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): omg! how awful.
[13:45] Qwark Allen: omg
[13:45] herman Bergson: It happens in the US....
[13:45] Kime Babenco: It will be over (in a kind of way) when the entire world becomse like animal farm... lol
[13:45] herman Bergson: Compamies that buy life insurances for their empyees....
[13:46] herman Bergson: not to pay to them...but to collect when the employee dies in an accident for instance...
[13:46] herman Bergson: especiallly when they have risky jobs
[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): Key man insurance - to buy the next executive...
[13:46] herman Bergson: yes, Debbie
[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): It is all a bit bizarre already.
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very
[13:48] herman Bergson: But we only can have this discussion when we know that there still are other moral values out there
[13:48] Kime Babenco: I someone of us had enough money ... then just say what is not for sale in this life...
[13:48] herman Bergson: friendship for instance kime...
[13:48] herman Bergson: True love and sincere loyalty...
[13:48] herman Bergson: Respect...
[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): So, what needs to change to make us behave more fairly, and less like piggies at the trough?
[13:49] Kime Babenco: Yes, true friendship, but when you find out ?
[13:49] herman Bergson: To answer your question Debbie....
[13:50] herman Bergson: you yourself are already the answer....
[13:50] Valcyrie: what does the phrase ... God is Love... mean in that context
[13:50] Kime Babenco: If you win 50 million US$ tomorrow by the lMega Sena (lotteria) and you go out you will have plenty of friens
[13:50] herman Bergson: by having discussions like this...
[13:50] herman Bergson: worldwide...
[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): We need more friends, more leisure time, less tv, and lots of hugs, and lunch :)
[13:50] herman Bergson: yes Debbie...
[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:51] Kime Babenco: It's good you take time to follow this course for a start ;-)
[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): You can't buy real friends. You need to earn those.
[13:52] herman Bergson: Well Valcyrie..., sometimes I have the idea, that religions are expressions of what we know that is actually missing in all social relations and interactions in this world...
[13:52] herman Bergson: grins...
[13:52] Kime Babenco: You can't buy real friendship… indeed... But rich people have easier making friends than poor people...
[13:52] herman Bergson: maybe I should make an exception for kinds of fundamentalism
[13:52] Valcyrie: i agree
[13:53] Valcyrie: love one another
[13:53] Kime Babenco: You only know real friends when you are in trouble... (is a saying) Not that I wish one of you to find out
[13:53] herman Bergson: Like we have language to communicate but poetry to reveal the beauty of language
[13:53] Debbie Dee (framdor): Kime, in the poorer parts of south africa people still live in tight communities, and family and friends are everything.
[13:53] Valcyrie: nietzsche says...we have art so we do not die of the truth
[13:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): rich people can buy acquaintences at bars and clubs.
[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:54] Kime Babenco: I can understand Debbie... When there is not much , there s not much to lose
[13:54] herman Bergson: in bars and clubs?
[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:55] herman Bergson: You could loose your virginity ^_^
[13:55] Catt (catt.gable): very nice, herman
[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in sl bars and clubs
[13:55] Debbie Dee (framdor): (Laughing oulol
[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): have to get going
[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you thursday
[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again....
[13:55] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.´ ¯¨.¸¸`** **´ ¸¸.¨¯` H E R MA N ´ ¯¨.¸¸`** **´ ¸¸.¨¯`
[13:55] Qwark Allen: thank you
[13:55] herman Bergson: I think we make good progress ^__^
[13:55] Qwark Allen: was great class as usual
[13:55] Qwark Allen: very enlightning
[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...

Sunday, September 23, 2012

418: The Aftermath of Neoliberalism: corrupting fairness

As some of you may know, the State of the Union is an annual address presented by the President of the United States to the United States Congress.
We have something like that on the third Tuesday of September. Then the Dutch queen delivers a speech, of course written by those who are politically responsible. She is just an ornament.
But they made her say something that concerns us seriously here. 
"The growth of the global economy remains below expectations."
Just think this over: 
One: Why has there to be growth, while already a number of economists have said, that we live on a planet with limited resources and that striving for unlimited growth is irresponsible and in fact insane.
Two: 'below expectations' Whose expectations ? Ours? Who formulates these expectations and why and what are the standards? 
Here again you see how the free market economy is taken as an obvious fact without any criticism. Production, consumption and a permanent growth of these two is almost a religious belief in the capitalist society.
Is the market economy THE ultimate system, that is consistent with what we experience as human values? Values we cherish, because they are at the root of our welfare and happiness and make use human in stead of consumers.
Let me be straight. No, the market economy is not the best or only system to do justice to all men. Even more emphatically, 
it can be argued that in some cases this system even corrupts our moral values and that we therefore seriously have to reconsider our human condition with respect to the belief in the free market.
The basic question is: Can money buy everything, like in the Atlantis of Ayn Rand love relations in fact were contracts, regulating the exchange of services in a relation like love, sex, affection and mutual support?
Let's begin with a simple issue: jumping the queue. When I flew with Ryan Air some time ago, I paid some extra. This allowed me to board the plane as one of the first while others had to wait in a long queue.
Unfair? I paid extra for it. Well…. I saw those looks of people in the other queue…. Here we already can make two observations.
One: here we are confronted with inequality based on the fact that I have the money to pay for the extra and others haven't.
Second: there is also a corrupting effect on certain values. Waiting in a queue is accepted by poor and rich. It has an egalitarian, democratic meaning. 
We all have to wait for our turn. We experience that as a social value, not as a good that should be bought and sold on the market. 
Of course, this example of my flight looks trivial, but this market effect goes much further. Lobbyists need access to politicians. They do so by attending all kinds of meetings of committees of Congress in the US.
But a lot of people want to attend these meetings, so you have to be early and stand in line for hours before the meeting begins.
The lobbyists, however, pay people to stand in line for them and exchange places just before the meeting begins. This means that a democratic  and equal right to attend such meetings has become a commodity on the market.
Physicians, who "sell" there mobil phone number for US$15.000 a year, which means that the patient can call him directly and get an appointment the same day. So, no equal accessibility of medic care.
Standing in line - and you can think of any situation where it applies - represents a social value of respecting equal chances for everyone in certain situations, whether you are poor and rich.
This is just in a nutshell a first example, which draws our attention to the fact that the increasing influence of money and the free market is penetrating areas, which once were dominated by non-commercial values.

The Discussion

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: thats not good
[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you,,, ^_^
[13:22] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::
[13:22] Debbie Dee (framdor): Everything has a price these days.
[13:23] Qwark Allen: seems so
[13:23] herman Bergson: If you have any question or remark...the floor is yours :-)
[13:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks Herman .
[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-0
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:23] Qwark Allen: even human life seems to have now a price, and seems very in the low side
[13:23] Kime Babenco: Thanks professor Herman
[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie and that is a bad thing....
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: and greed show no limit these days, now i read in the morning something that made me jump high
[13:23] Qwark Allen: there is no democracy, as we have been seeing in the last classes
[13:24] herman Bergson: Telll us Bejiita
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: Apple sues a polish apple grower named p,le cause name sounds similar and have an apple as a logo
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: thats SICK!
[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): LOL
[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): I sometimes thin, if you look at world debt, we need growth every year to pay the interest, and the capital is beyond redemption. It is a big ponzy scheme!
[13:24] Qwark Allen: its just another example how the bankers cracy corrupted all society
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: grrr i get so tired of this, Apple behave like a kid sitting in a sand box throwing sand and mud at everyone comes close
[13:25] herman Bergson: It is not just the bankers.....
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: and its a shame on a company that makes good products
[13:25] Qwark Allen: we usually say, that the example comes from the top
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: then they behave like swines and try take over the world
[13:25] Kime Babenco: Some people say , as well philosophers I think, or scientists, that human population on this planet should stop get get more numerous...
[13:26] Qwark Allen: the ruler have respect for human life, their subjects have respect for human life, and vice versa
[13:26] herman Bergson: Keep in mind that there are counter Occupy movemnt....
[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): What does quantitative easing mean in this context?
[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): printing money?
[13:27] herman Bergson: I don't know Debbie....
[13:27] herman Bergson: And this planet, Kime, can support more people than there live now...
[13:27] Qwark Allen: that reminded me, about charities movements! its just another way to laundry money for the big bankers
[13:27] Kime Babenco: Don't believe in humans going to Mars... lol
[13:27] Kime Babenco: as an extend of earth
[13:27] herman Bergson: No...MArs is not an option...
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh i think it is
[13:28] herman Bergson: You do Gemma?
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): The planet will survive - the people wont,
[13:28] Qwark Allen: we need a far more advanced technology to go there, then the one we have now
[13:28] Qwark Allen: will be long time till that happens
[13:28] Kime Babenco: Maybe in a 1000 years , or maybe ..... never
[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): as for living on mars - what a poor substitute for earth.
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they are investigating ways to launch to mars from another planet
[13:28] herman Bergson: indeed Qwark....
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we will see
[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well maybe WE wont see but someone will
[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): LOL
[13:29] Qwark Allen: more easy will be going to live in the moon
[13:29] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:29] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:29] herman Bergson: But what is more important at the moment is that the free market...or say, money, corrupts moral values...
[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): who would have imagined going to the moon in 1920
[13:29] Kime Babenco: But we are not talking about Mars, It's here on this planet now
[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): So the human epidemic will infest and kill other planets? The superior aliens will zap us first!
[13:29] herman Bergson: Jules Verne gemma
[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): llol
[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i mean non sci fi people
[13:30] Qwark Allen: eheheh maybe what you don`t know, is that they are there already
[13:30] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:30] Qwark Allen: and in the moon also ^^
[13:30] Kime Babenco: I mean some reasonable humans
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and people thought Da Vinci was nuts
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): anyway the occupy movement needs to admit they need cohesion and a leader group to do anything
[13:31] herman Bergson: One way to approach problems is to refer to the future and what it will bring...
[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....
[13:31] herman Bergson: the opposition to the absolute belief in the free market is still scattered....
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they need to lobby
[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): Herman, we all need to work on the problem of inhumane outcomes. For example, don't buy the expensive ticket from ryan air next time. It starts with individual behaviour
[13:32] herman Bergson: But I am not talking about this issue because I am so enlightened..:-)
[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear
[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): at this point all air travel is horrible
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....and my behavior is an example of this ongoing process I think
[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): herding like cattle
[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes Herman. You're one of the good guys ;)
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:33] Kime Babenco: We can solve problems like finding a Higgs part... costs billions of billions of money... But we can not guartee a safe life to everyone... And we will never be able to... ... But more than we attempt...
[13:34] Kime Babenco: I know if you help certain countries, they buy weapons with the money...
[13:34] herman Bergson: Well... I don't know...I just want to point at the fact that there are processis in society, politics and science which oppose the free market religion...
[13:34] herman Bergson: That seems the case indeed Kime :-)
[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): Kime, the people who make and sell the arms are the perpetrators.
[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): They then lend the money to poor (african) governments to buy guns
[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): usually with diplomatic approval
[13:36] herman Bergson: And here the main issue is making profit....
[13:36] Kime Babenco: Yes, , they only want money... they sell arms like a bread... and don't care if you eat it yourself of feed the porks with it...
[13:36] Qwark Allen:
[13:36] Qwark Allen: for your apreciation about the moon
[13:36] herman Bergson: Hello Amadeus :-)
[13:36] Multiphilosophy: Heya Amadeus
[13:36] Amadeus Semper (amadeussemper): Hello Herman :)
[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): amadeus
[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor) YAY CONGRATUATIONS!
[13:36] Qwark Allen: was trying to find a article i read about the moon , made by a NASA scientist
[13:36] Amadeus Semper (amadeussemper): Hi Multi :-)
[13:37] Amadeus Semper (amadeussemper): Hello Debbie, hello folks
[13:37] herman Bergson: NExt time I'll give you more examples how the market invades our moral values....
[13:37] herman Bergson: this was just a small example
[13:37] herman Bergson: But to mention some others....
[13:37] herman Bergson: IN certain schools kids are paid to read books...
[13:37] Kime Babenco: Yes... Herman... shopping addicts exists
[13:38] herman Bergson: because reading books is educational....
[13:38] herman Bergson: but the kids get paid to stimulate them....
[13:38] herman Bergson: thus reading books tend to become a paid job, in state of reading because it is a pleasure as such
[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): Weird
[13:38] Kime Babenco: OK
[13:39] herman Bergson: Burce Springsteen asks US$95 for his live entrance fee...
[13:39] Kime Babenco: You must be kiding
[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): OH THAT IS CHEAP
[13:39] herman Bergson: He does this (which costs him money) because he wants everybody to have a chance to attend...
[13:39] Kime Babenco: 95 US $ ?
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): concerts are sometimes 125-200
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): depending on who is the artist
[13:40] Kime Babenco: For entrance to everyone... ok
[13:40] herman Bergson: I still think it is alot of money, but some other artist asked US$450 for the best places...(forgot the name)
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): me too
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): is true
[13:41] herman Bergson: The reason is that the concerts have also a social value....a feast between artist and public...
[13:41] herman Bergson: but what happpens...
[13:41] Kime Babenco: Madonna asked in Rio and Sao Paulo 600 R$ for nice place
[13:42] herman Bergson: people who aren't interested in this social value at all buy those tickets and sell them on th eblack market for twice as much or more
[13:42] Kime Babenco: is about 250 US$
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh lol
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): big football games resold for maybe 1000 or more
[13:42] herman Bergson: Same thing happens with the free theater performances in Central PArk....
[13:42] Kime Babenco: Depeche Mode cancelled all trips in Brasil
[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): In south africa - there are often forged tickets sold outside.
[13:43] Kime Babenco: In 2010
[13:43] Kime Babenco: I won a trip to a show of them
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:44] herman Bergson: so...what I mean to say is that what initially was dominated by non commercial values like joy, social bonding etc. are taken over by the market , money and making profits
[13:44] herman Bergson: Like in near future you can buy friendship.....
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: no nice development for sure
[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): The moral erosion of the free market at work.
[13:45] Kime Babenco: How matter how you turn it... everything is commercial...
[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....and you'll hear more about this from me in next lectures...
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: everyone just want your money and not you, yourself have no value today just your wallet
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: thats sad
[13:45] Kime Babenco: Maybe not in the older countries like USSR or while we had a Military Regimn
[13:45] herman Bergson: And that is a sad observation Kime....
[13:46] Kime Babenco: It's a sad observation , but I guess not far from truth
[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): We see the problem clearly, but there is no solution apparent.
[13:47] herman Bergson: We'll see Kime...we'll see....maybe we'll conclude at the end that with money you can not buy everything
[13:47] herman Bergson: and that there are values in live which are more valuable than what money can buy
[13:47] Kime Babenco: OK... see you Herman
[13:47] herman Bergson: Smiles
[13:47] herman Bergson: ok KIme :-)
[13:47] Kime Babenco: Be sure ;-)
[13:48] herman Bergson: Maybe I succeed in making my point....
[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): perhaps
[13:48] herman Bergson: You can not buy hope ^_^
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: no
[13:48] Kime Babenco: Lol
[13:48] herman Bergson: You've got it or not :-))
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: and u cant buy friends cause then they are no friends, just after your money
[13:49] Kime Babenco: Whithout i hope is really sad
[13:49] Kime Babenco: So let's avoid that
[13:49] herman Bergson: I will Kime...
[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): Money can't buy a return of the missing fish in the ocean
[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): Money can't buy clean air
[13:49] herman Bergson: so thank you all for your participation and I hope to see you all again next Tuesday ^_^
[13:50] Qwark Allen: or a clean of the oceans from the radioactivity released by fukushima
[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thank you Herman - thought provoking as usual
[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:50] Multiphilosophy: If you impose taxes on air and sea polluting factories or give them a rebate on tax for cleanliness, I guess money can buy that in a sense.
[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): we don't want to go
[13:50] herman Bergson: laughs...
[13:50] herman Bergson: you don't need to Debbie ^_^
[13:51] herman Bergson: It only allows me to go, if I like to ^_^
[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): goody.