Friday, October 25, 2019

808: Growing insight......

Previous lecture I introduced you to a development, which has its real roots in the 1960s -1970s.
That man was aware of the well-being and suffering of animals is shown by the Reverend Nathaniel Ward (1578–1652), an English lawyer, Puritan clergyman, and University of Cambridge graduate. 

Ward's list of "rites" included rite 92: "No man shall exercise any Tirrany or Crueltie toward any brute Creature which are usually kept for man's use."

In 1809, Lord Erskine (1750-1823) introduced a bill to protect cattle and horses from malicious wounding, wanton cruelty, and beating.

The development in England of the concept of animal rights was strongly supported by the German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer (1788–1860). 
He wrote that Europeans were "awakening more and more to a sense that beasts have rights, related to the strange notion, that the animal kingdom came into existence solely for the benefit and pleasure of man. 
He stopped short of advocating vegetarianism, arguing that, so long as an animal's death was quick, men would suffer more by not eating meat than animals would suffer by being eaten.
I just picked a few examples from history which show, that through time man has been aware of the fact that animals are not just automata, as Descartes thought, but sentient beings.
Due to the technological developments in our time the attention for animal rights has become a global issue. It is put on the political agenda.
One group who does so is Critical Animal Studies (CAS). It is an interdisciplinary scientific field and theory-to-activism global community, 
which originated at the beginning of the 21st century. The core interest of CAS is ethical reflection on relations between people and other animals.

CAS traces its history back to critical social movements of the 1960s and 70s, which is when ecological and animal questions entered the academic debate.

Supporters of CAS often emphasize that although animal studies has made a large contribution to growing awareness 
about the complexities of human-animal relations, it lacks a deep moral engagement and remains detached from the most significant problems.
Therefor CAS also promotes activism. We have seen many examples of this in recent years. 
One of the most destructive groups in the 1990s and later was the Animal Liberation Front. I remember the news reports about the release of mink in the night on mink farms.
The protests and actions eventually ended in a ban on the massive breeding of mink. Another target were the chickens, that had to live in way to small cages for the productions of eggs.
Today, the supermarkets are trying to make us believe that the eggs we buy now are laid by chickens, which are kept in larger spaces or even can walk around out in the open.
As you see man also can learn and obtain new insights in his relation with nature  and animals. Of course it is far from perfect still, but we see a growing respect for nature and its animals.
Thank you for your attention again....

The Discussion

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we have to live with nature, because we are a part of it
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so true
[13:22] herman Bergson: it is interesting to see, that this insight reaches a larger audience only since the 1970s
[13:23] herman Bergson: Through history there were a lot of thinkers who had ideas about animals and how to treat them, though
[13:23] herman Bergson: Bu tthe previous century put it really on the political agenda
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in every country?
[13:24] herman Bergson: I don't know
[13:24] CB Axel: The book "Black Beauty" led to better treatment of horses in the US. :)
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what about the dancing bears in Albania for instance?
[13:25] herman Bergson: since a special law passed in 2006 in the US....forgot the name....animal activism is qualified as terrorism in the US
[13:26] CB Axel: The Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act (AETA)
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): like the activists here in the Netherlands?
[13:26] herman Bergson: In Asia they still eat dog meat, which upsets us....I know
[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes..CB....That law....thnx :-)
[13:27] CB Axel: PETA is a pain in the ass group. I agree with a lot of their agenda, but I don't like their tactics.
[13:28] herman Bergson: In a short period of time animal activists created a damage of more that 40 million dollar in the UK...
[13:28] herman Bergson: Here in the Netherlands they opened the mink cages and let the animals out
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and they then died cause could not live in the wild
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I think
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you can smell mink cages from kilometers distance
[13:29] CB Axel: Yeah. All those weasels stink.
[13:30] herman Bergson: I   don't know what happened to the animals, Bejiita, but you might be right
[13:30] CB Axel: But after they did that mink farms were banned, right?
[13:30] CB Axel: so it worked.
[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes it worked indeed
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah In the end
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they wanted the fur of the minks, but we use leather that as awful as fur?
[13:31] herman Bergson: This activism put the farms and the animal well-being on the agenda...
[13:31] herman Bergson: Fur industry collapsed too
[13:31] CB Axel: Animal rights groups would say leather is just as bad.
[13:32] herman Bergson: It is a serious debate indeed....
[13:32] CB Axel: But I think if we use the rest of the animal for food and whatever it's not as bad as growing a mink just for its fur.
[13:32] herman Bergson: Is man allowed to use animals for his needs...?
[13:32] herman Bergson: I agree, CB
[13:33] CB Axel: Like I said on Tuesday, the animals would use us for their needs, so as long as we treat them well I'm ok with it.
[13:33] herman Bergson: Yet such actions give you  sometimes a feeling of guilt....towards animals
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a tricky subject indeed
[13:34] herman Bergson: I agree with your point of view CB...I also take such a position
[13:34] CB Axel: As long as it's for something like food or clothing it's ok, imo. But just using them because one thinks a fur coat is pretty or because one wants to hang its head on the wall seems silly to me.
[13:34] CB Axel: I think the furs look prettier on the original animal. :)
[13:35] herman Bergson: My cat will agree with that, CB  :-)
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): better on a real lion then on a fashion lion
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:35] CB Axel: Or a mink
[13:35] CB Axel: My mother had a mink jacket. I wasn't impressed.
[13:36] herman Bergson: You see very few fur coats these days....
[13:36] herman Bergson: and when there is fur on a coat, people hasten to say that it is artificial fur
[13:36] CB Axel: I'll still see faux furs, but I don't even see many of those.
[13:37] herman Bergson: call it faux fur, CB?
[13:37] CB Axel: Some do, yes.
[13:38] herman Bergson: At least we can conclude that these animal activist's protests have an impact on the general public
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:38] CB Axel: I feel sorry for those poor fauxes they get them from. LOL
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess thats so indeed
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they open they eyes
[13:39] herman Bergson: It  shows a little positive learning behavior of people...
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there
[13:39] herman Bergson: their eyes, yes :-)
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oops yes
[13:39] herman Bergson grins
[13:40] herman Bergson: sorry
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): np
[13:40] herman Bergson: old schoolmaster here
[13:40] CB Axel: :)
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ols student here :)
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): old
[13:40] herman Bergson: ^_^
[13:41] herman Bergson: This all shows that activism and actions can influence a public opinion in a desired way
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): eating meat is a question.....but eating fish? that different?
[13:41] CB Axel: Anti-war protests haven't helped.
[13:41] CB Axel: Eating fish is healthier for the humans. Not so much for the fish.
[13:42] herman Bergson: Interesting observation CB.....but I wonder
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they are animals too
[13:42] herman Bergson: There were nuclear cruise missiles stationed in the Netherlands in the previous century....
[13:42] CB Axel: Anti-war protesters or fish, Beertje? :)
[13:42] herman Bergson: They generated a lot of national protest and demonstrations....
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): anti-war
[13:43] CB Axel: :)
[13:43] herman Bergson: and eventually the missiles were removed...
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): something at least
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:43] herman Bergson: of course I can't claim with certainty that it was because of the protests (only)
[13:44] CB Axel: Ah, but those protests haven't made much difference here in the US.
[13:44] CB Axel: We're still constantly at war.
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly yes
[13:45] herman Bergson: That's the case indeed, CB..... in that context Trump's decisions make at least a little sense
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what about tests on animals for testing medicines?
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is that allowed?
[13:46] CB Axel: Yeah. The only thing I agree with Trump on is that we need to get out of the Middle East. I just don't agree with how he's doing it.
[13:46] herman Bergson: Due to protests such experiments have been reduced a lot.
[13:46] CB Axel: I have a big problem with animal testing, but I do want to see better medicines.
[13:46] CB Axel: Those experiments have to be more humane, too.
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agree
[13:47] CB Axel: I think they do them a little better now.
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you are not sure CB?
[13:47] CB Axel: They are supposed to take animal comfort into consideration, but I'm not sure they always do.
[13:48] herman Bergson: I read about several companies in the US that had to close down because their use of animals for testing
[13:48] CB Axel: I wish we'd try treating our own species better. :(
[13:48] herman Bergson: I think the situation has at least improved somewhat for test animals, and the scale on which they are used
[13:49] CB Axel: Look at all those dead Chinese nationals dead in the lorry in Essex.
[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes...horrible...frozen to death
[13:50] CB Axel: Frozen or suffocated? I haven't heard the actual cause of death mentioned.
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ow
[13:50] herman Bergson: Well the truck had to go through a heat scanner, so they turned on the freezer to mask the body warmth...
[13:51] herman Bergson: and I guess they had forgotten to turn it off again after they were through the scanner
[13:51] CB Axel: So sad.
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so the driver knew what was in his truck?
[13:52] herman Bergson: It is just what I heard in the news
[13:53] herman Bergson: But when we focus on the animals today, I guess, we may conclude that step by step they become better of these days
[13:54] herman Bergson: and that we take more responsibility for them
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:54] herman Bergson: A positive thought to begin the weekend with...:-)
[13:54] CB Axel: :)
[13:55] herman Bergson: So, thank you all again for your participation...
[13:55] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now all
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye bejiita
[13:55] herman Bergson: Have a good time Bejiita
[13:56] CB Axel: I'll see you all in two weeks. :)
[13:56] CB Axel: Have a nice holiday, herman.
[13:56] herman Bergson: Ah yes.., dont forget....
[13:56] herman Bergson: vacation for you all next week ^_^
[13:56] CB Axel: Bye
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes:)

[13:56] herman Bergson: Bye CB ^_^

Thursday, October 24, 2019

807: Animal Rights......

It is sometimes said, that humans can behave like animals (which insults really all animals in the world, but this aside :-) . Humans have rights.
What when animals behave like humans? Doesn't that imply that animals have rights too?
It were the remarks of CB in our latest discussion, that told me, that we have to deal with this issue.     

Moreover, just a day or so later there was this article in my newspaper about the same theme: animal rights.
This whole debate about animal rights is a true legacy of the 20th century. In that century the Dutch Parliament was expanded with the "Party for the Animals", founded October 28, 2002. (4 seats)
Its point of view: "The Party for the Animals believes that we should strive for a society in which as few animals as possible are used by humans. 
Animals deserve good protection and a life according to their nature and needs. Animal rights must be included in the constitution. -END-
The conviction that we should think about animal rights is quite new, if you put it in the perspective of human history.
I guess you can say it began with Peter Albert David Singer AC (1946 - ...), an Australian moral philosopher. 
He specializes in applied ethics and approaches ethical issues from a secular, utilitarian perspective. He is known in particular for his book "Animal Liberation", in which he argues in favour of veganism.
Published in 1975, Animal Liberation has been cited as a formative influence on leaders of the modern animal liberation movement.
The central argument of the book is an expansion of the utilitarian concept that "the greatest good of the greatest number" is the only measure of good or ethical behaviour, 
and Singer believes that there is no reason not to apply this principle to other animals, arguing that the boundary between human and "animal" is completely arbitrary. 
There are far more differences between a great ape and an oyster, for example, than between a human and a great ape, 
and yet the former two are lumped together as "animals", whereas we are considered "human" in a way that supposedly differentiates us from all other "animals."
The Animal Rights Movement, or rights liberationists, believe that these basic interests confer moral rights of some kind on the animals, and/or ought to confer legal rights on them.
Utilitarian liberationists, on the other hand, do not believe that animals possess moral rights, but argue, on utilitarian grounds. 
Utilitarianism in its simplest form advocating that we base moral decisions on the greatest happiness of the greatest number, 
that, because animals have the ability to suffer, their suffering must be taken into account in any moral philosophy. 
To exclude animals from that consideration, they argue, is a form of discrimination that they call speciesism.
Speciesism is a form of discrimination based on species membership. It involves treating members of one species as morally more important than members of other species even when their interests are equivalent.
This is a whole new debate we inherited from the 20th century and you can imagine, that we are not done yet with this subject.
Thank you for your attention again....

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: The floor is yours :-))


[13:18] herman Bergson: Guess you're all vegetarians?   :-))
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): flexitarian:)
[13:19] herman Bergson: So nothing to discuss here ^_^
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:20] CB Axel: Why should I not eat animals. Many animals would eat me if given the chance.
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not 100 % however nowadays there are LOTS of vegetarian food that is really tasty and not as many call it "rabbit food"
[13:20] CB Axel: So I'm not treating them differently.
[13:20] herman Bergson: But what you are witnessing here is a complete change of attitude towards animals in our time
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes here in Europe and thus I guess.. but what about china?
[13:21] herman Bergson: there they eat their dogs :-)
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa indeed
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:21] herman Bergson: But that is in line with CB's remark....
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they treat their animals like it were puppets on a sting
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): string:)
[13:22] herman Bergson: Ought we to be vegetarians....?
[13:22] CB Axel: I do believe the animals should be killed with as little suffering as possible, but lion don't take a human's suffering into consideration when the eat them (I would assume).
[13:22] herman Bergson: There are horrible killing movies of lions and so on on Youtube....
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): muslims kill their animals without painkillers, that is terrible
[13:23] herman Bergson: Animals dont take suffering into account....
[13:23] CB Axel: On the other hand, I would have trouble killing an animal myself.
[13:23] CB Axel: It's hypocritical, I know, but I'd still have a problem with it.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe I've done a fish now and then but thats it (from one with very poor fishing luck also)
[13:24] herman Bergson: I even capture spiders and other insects in the house and put them outside....don't kill them :-)
[13:24] CB Axel: Good point, Bejiita. I have eaten fish I've caught.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well I try do that too
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i once killed a chicken
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and prepared it for dinner
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): unless mosquitos! DAMN BITERS, those I fry  with high voltage
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ZRRRRRRBBBZZZ! MUHAHAHAH
[13:25] CB Axel: But I worked with a guy who would go to school in the state of Maine. He always offered to send me live lobsters.
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): after that I didn't eat chicken for years:(
[13:25] roos Gartner is offline.
[13:25] CB Axel: I  just knew that if he sent me a couple of live lobsters I'd end up with a bathtub full of salt water and two new pets.
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahahaha
[13:26] CB Axel: Claude and Shelly. I even had names picked out.
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:26] herman Bergson: As you see....we have a kind of feeling towards animals.....kind of feeling that not everything is alllowed
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol CB
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:26] CB Axel: (In American English Claude is pronounced like clawed) :)
[13:26] Darks Adria is online.
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha perfect
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:27] herman Bergson: But the question is have animal RIGHTS...
[13:27] herman Bergson: Like we claim that we have the RIGHT to live
[13:27] CB Axel: I do believe animals have some rights.
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes I think so too
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): does an animal have the right to live?
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are alive just as we and so can of course feel something
[13:28] herman Bergson: the other question big is the gulf between a chimp or bonobo and a human
[13:29] herman Bergson: What gives us the right to live, Beertje?
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are discriminating animals..why does an elephant have the right to live and not a fly?
[13:29] CB Axel: Humans are omnivores. We evolved to eat meat. If you tried feeding your cat a vegan diet it would become ill. Humans can manage on a vegan diet, but I don't think we should have to.
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or a moscito?
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why CB?
[13:30] herman Bergson: I agree CB :-)
[13:30] CB Axel: Aren't there Tibetan monks who watch every step they take so they don't step on bugs?
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): flys I can take but mosquitos just try bite me
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ITCH ITCH
[13:30] herman Bergson: Those are buddhist monks
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): esp when I play golf
[13:31] CB Axel: Beertje, I just don't think we must eat vegan if we don't want to .
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's your problem Bejiita not of the mosquito
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he just needs BLOOD:)
[13:31] herman Bergson: When attacked you have the right to defend you...also agains mosquitos :-)
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just wish it would not itsch so damn! why does it have to inject venom at same time!
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): tokeep the wound open:)
[13:32] herman Bergson: Kill the bug, Bejiita ^_^
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the I lay in bed and scratch myself for hours
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): be glad that they are just tiny:)
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ouch
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): such a big man and such a tiny mosquito:)))
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least as I said before there are many nice vegetarian alternatives now that I have tried and really like
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): something called Oumph (who came up with that name) is a new fav
[13:33] Nasty Calamity is offline.
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and quorn is a long time fav too
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a bit like chicken and pulled por
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): k
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so that goes
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:34] herman Bergson: Is there, based on animal rights, a moral obligation for humans to be vegetarian?
[13:35] CB Axel: No. Like I said, they'd eat us if they had the chance. :)
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa a lion for ex see us as food
[13:35] herman Bergson: My idea too, CB
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause they are predators
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe we eat too much meat
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and so are we, that how we starte as hunters
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that I can agree on
[13:36] CB Axel: That's probably true, Beertje.
[13:36] herman Bergson: Aren't we too, Bejiita? Only a bit smarter?
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): were I live there are more pigs then humans
[13:36] CB Axel: I do try to go at least one day a week without meat. It's healthier and better for the planet.
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one thing is for sure, if u sere me pasta bolognese or similar with minced meat I feel no difference between minced qourn and meat, they taste and feel identical
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so both goes just as well for me
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why must that taste like meat?
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and if there is a difference its not in a bad way
[13:37] herman Bergson: funny question, Beertje :-))
[13:38] herman Bergson: ok...
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they have something at a local burger house MAX something they call "plant beef" its a little softer but taste just as good and maybe even better then the meat version I think
[13:39] CB Axel: Why should chocolate taste like chocolate? Because we like the taste.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with that oomph pulled pork thing, I think I like that even better then the real thing
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): slightly
[13:39] theo Velde is online.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as long as taste and consistency is right I eat it
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): right
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): vegetarian or not
[13:40] CB Axel nods
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I think oumphn is soy bean based
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so thins vega meat has to taste like meat...why?
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because it works best with hamburgers and similar,
[13:40] herman Bergson: It is not only about is in general the way we treat animals...
[13:40] CB Axel: There is a noodle restaurant chain I like. I get a Thai noodle dish with tofu instead of meat.
[13:40] CB Axel: Yes, Herman.
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa tofu I eat too
[13:40] herman Bergson: I dislike tofu :-))
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yakkes
[13:41] herman Bergson: yes Beertje ^_^
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): by itself it don't taste much and I have eaten both good and bad so a bit quality differences here I think
[13:41] CB Axel: Temple Grandin did a lot to improve slaughter houses in the US. She works to make them more humane.
[13:41] herman Bergson: For the Netherlands it is forbidden to use wild animals in circus acts
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think animals have a right to have a good life
[13:42] CB Axel: How can you dislike tofu? It tastes like whatever you season it with. :)
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I ate smoked tofu once
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) whispers: yum!
[13:42] CB Axel: Circuses in the US are getting away from using animals, too.
[13:43] herman Bergson: this is a result of the debate on animal rights....
[13:43] CB Axel nods
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:43] herman Bergson: and this shows how our attitude towards animals is changing in favor of animals
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's about time
[13:44] herman Bergson: towards the idea that animals really have rights
[13:44] theo Velde is offline.
[13:44] herman Bergson: We'll dig into this subject a little more next lecture....
[13:45] herman Bergson: Unlesss you have that final question......
[13:45] herman Bergson: Let's conclude this discussion :-)
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now im gonna change into my halloween zombie outfit and go eat some brains!
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) whispers: MUAHAHAHAHAH!
[13:45] herman Bergson: lol
[13:45] bergfrau Apfelbaum: meat has to be more expensive.... than less is bought and more animals live!
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): your own Bejiita?
[13:45] herman Bergson: human brains I guess Bejiita :-)
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:45] CB Axel: I hope those are humanely harvested brains, Bejiita.
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): pixel brains
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....all  brains are eaten already
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oumphn brains left maybe
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): untill thursday...have nice vegetarian meals:)
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu around
[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class:-)
[13:46] herman Bergson: happy Broccoli to all of you :-)
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well im gonna eat a plant beef burger maybe
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): liked those
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:47] CB Axel: Good discussion. Thank you, Herman and everyone.

Friday, October 18, 2019

806: We are animals....

There are still evangelicals who are convinced that we are descendants from Adam and Eva and that the world was created in 6 days.
However, in the early 1970s it was scientifically widely accepted, that we are descendants of primates, great apes.
I remember well how I was fascinated in those days by Konrad Lorenz ( 1903 –  1989), an Austrian zoologist, ethologist, and ornithologist. 
Of course I was most interested in ethology, because it revealed features of animal behavior, which relate to human behavior.
Lorenz is recognized as one of the founding fathers of the field of ethology, the study of animal behavior. 
He is best known for his discovery of the principle of attachment, or imprinting, through which in some species a bond is formed between a new born animal and its caregiver.
"Behind the mirror, a search for a natural history of human knowledge " is a 1973 book by Konrad Lorenz. 
One of the key positions of the book included the criticism of Immanuel Kant, arguing that the philosopher failed to realize that knowledge, 
as mirrored by the human mind is the product of evolutionary adaptations.
Kant has maintained that our consciousness or our description and judgments about the world could never mirror the world as it really is 
so we can not simply take in the raw data that the world provides nor impose our forms on the world.
Raw data without forms are chaos. Forms without data are empty. We mix the two and call it our reality, never knowing the reality "an sich" (as such).
Lorenz disputed this, saying it is inconceivable that  through chance mutations and selective retention the world fashioned an instrument of cognition that grossly misleads man about such world.  
A close friend of Lorenz was Niko Tinbergen  (1907 – 1988), a Dutch biologist and ornithologist who shared the 1973 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine 
with Karl von Frisch and Konrad Lorenz for their discoveries concerning organization and elicitation of individual and social behavior patterns in animals. 
He like Konrad Lorenz is regarded as one of the founders of modern ethology, the study of animal behavior. 
So, there is ethology as an established  science, studying all kinds of behaviors, which are also part of our behavioral repertoire.
Then there is Frans de Waal (born October 29, 1948) , the famous Dutch primatologist and ethologist.
His research into the innate capacity for empathy among primates has led him to the conclusion that non-human great apes and humans 
are simply different types of apes, and that empathic and cooperative tendencies are continuous between these species.
The second discovery of the 1970s was that Homo Sapiens had evolved from hominids in Africa and that from there he colonized the rest of the world.
What the 20th century taught us, is that we are part of an eco-system like all primates , other animals and plants. 
However, we have an other impact on the eco-system than our fellow primates.
The evidence is overwhelming... we are self-aware conscious animals.....and I should add....with a moral sense.
Thank you again.....
The Discussion

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same same but different indeed
[13:22] CB Axel: You don't think the other great apes have a moral sense?
[13:22] herman Bergson: I know this story isnt shocking to you....we have discussed this on a number of occasions
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I saw a quest once. What are humans? 1. Complicated beings with thoughts and feelings. 2: Things that make things you can sell
[13:23] herman Bergson: ....other great apes have a moral sense?
[13:23] CB Axel: I think they have a sense of right and wrong.
[13:23] herman Bergson: Do they have a sense of bad and evil?
[13:24] CB Axel: They may not have the same moral code as we do, but not all humans have those in common.
[13:24] herman Bergson: Bonobos seem to show a kind of feeling like that indeed CB
[13:24] CB Axel: They certainly have a sense of what's fair or not.
[13:25] herman Bergson: There is that famous experiment of van der Waal,
[13:25] CB Axel: Yes, but bonobos have a different moral code that most humans regarding sex.
[13:25] herman Bergson: where a bonobo shows that he is treated unfair
[13:25] CB Axel: Exactly
[13:26] herman Bergson: yet I don't think primates have a moral sense....
[13:26] CB Axel: So their moral code my include how treats and rewards should be handed out, it doesn't include monogamy.
[13:27] CB Axel: But then, not too many humans seem to believe in monogamy any more either.
[13:27] herman Bergson: they react based on instinct, not based on self reflection and choice
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or religious beliefs and hocus pocus
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as some also do still
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they just well
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): are
[13:28] CB Axel: You don't think those jealous reactions were based on thinking, "what a jerk! I deserve a grape, too!"
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:28] herman Bergson: I don't know....
[13:28] herman Bergson: There is a striking resemblance with human behavior indeed
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (stretch hand behind computer screen and grams a blue grape from the fruit bowl hidden behind)
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mmm'
[13:28] CB Axel: Do crows that use tools do that merely out of instinct, or are they thinking about what they're doing?
[13:29] CB Axel: I think there has to be some reasoning going on.
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they have to have some general idea that doing this works
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with this
[13:29] CB Axel: I agree, Bejiita.
[13:29] herman Bergson: In my opinion they are not thinking and is learned behavior, taught by other crows
[13:30] herman Bergson: it is adaptive behavior to an environment
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have to be, just as I know the difference between when to use a hammer, welder or angle grinder
[13:30] CB Axel: Even crows that just do it without having seen it done before?
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there must be one to be the first
[13:30] herman Bergson: Before homo sapiens appeared there were already hominids that used tools
[13:31] herman Bergson: chimps use branches as tools
[13:32] herman Bergson: are they thinking, reasoning beings...?
[13:32] CB Axel: I think they are.
[13:32] herman Bergson: But it doesn't make them human
[13:33] CB Axel: I guess we'd have to raise some in isolation and see if they can figure things out on their own.
[13:33] CB Axel: I'm not saying they're human. I just don't think we're as special as we think and that we should give animals more respect than we do.
[13:34] herman Bergson: Maybe we should study the work of Frans de Waal some more to get answers, CB
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed CB
[13:34] herman Bergson: I agree with that CB
[13:34] CB Axel: It would be interesting to meet him as see what he could tell us. :)
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just because they can't speak don't mean they are dumb
[13:34] CB Axel: Does he think animals reason?
[13:35] CB Axel: Or do they just react out of instinct?
[13:35] CB Axel: I'd like to ask him that.k
[13:35] herman Bergson: I don't know, CB....I should look into that to give you an answer
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one thing setting us aside is we are the only one really able to communicate with a language, other animals have just one single "word" like Mjau or WOFF
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but we have a language
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no Bejiita
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): animals have a language too
[13:36] CB Axel: We do seem to communicate more complex thoughts between us.
[13:36] herman Bergson: and we have an awareness of time Bejiita....past and future....animals don't have that
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): think of whales
[13:37] herman Bergson: Animals produce signs
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I for ex can't hear if a dog is happy or angry, sounds the same almost in both cases, but its maybe the same as I can't understand arabic either
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its just habla habla to me
[13:37] CB Axel: Whales definitely have a language, but I don't think they're using it to discuss whether they have souls or are more clever than humans. :)
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in some way they have to be able to communicate for sure clearly
[13:38] CB Axel: I don't know, though. I can's speak whale.
[13:38] CB Axel: *can't
[13:38] herman Bergson: Never met a philosophical whale :-)
[13:38] CB Axel: That you know of!
[13:39] herman Bergson: yes :-))
[13:39] CB Axel: Unless you speak whale.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:40] herman Bergson: I must admit it is hard to tell where being an animal stops and being a human being begins, if you look at primates
[13:40] CB Axel nods
[13:40] herman Bergson: besides that....
[13:41] herman Bergson: when we speak of self awareness and awareness of time, we only refer to cognitive qualities
[13:41] herman Bergson: what about the awareness of emotions....
[13:41] herman Bergson: they are clearly present in animals too
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:42] herman Bergson: Like an elephant grieves over the death of her calf
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:42] herman Bergson: Long time we have denied animals emotions, feelings
[13:42] herman Bergson: But they have....
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they sure have
[13:44] herman Bergson: If you begin with the work of Frans de Waal, you have a lot of information to study regarding this subject
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a neighbour nearby have a little dog and he hets crazy happy every time he sees me
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): gets
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and neighbours are nice too
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he loves your ankles Bejjiita?
[13:44] herman Bergson: It is your aura the dog sees, Bejiita ^_^
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he loves when I hug him
[13:45] CB Axel: I'm sure the dog likes all of Bejiita. :)
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hes really nice
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:45] herman Bergson: Welll....
[13:46] herman Bergson: for the Frans de Waal and books on ethology :-)
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im a nice guy so
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): all of it?
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:46] herman Bergson: Some of it Beertje :-)
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah pfew:)
[13:46] herman Bergson: It might answer our questions....
[13:47] herman Bergson: So if you have no other questions...time to enjoy the weekend...:-)
[13:47] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....thank you all again :-)
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a nice weekend Herman
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki back to burn a while maybe before I sleep
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:48] herman Bergson: Happy burning Bejiita ^_^
[13:48] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and Class!
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Bejiita

[13:49] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman. Lots to think about again. :)