Thursday, October 24, 2019

807: Animal Rights......

It is sometimes said, that humans can behave like animals (which insults really all animals in the world, but this aside :-) . Humans have rights.
What when animals behave like humans? Doesn't that imply that animals have rights too?
It were the remarks of CB in our latest discussion, that told me, that we have to deal with this issue.     

Moreover, just a day or so later there was this article in my newspaper about the same theme: animal rights.
This whole debate about animal rights is a true legacy of the 20th century. In that century the Dutch Parliament was expanded with the "Party for the Animals", founded October 28, 2002. (4 seats)
Its point of view: "The Party for the Animals believes that we should strive for a society in which as few animals as possible are used by humans. 
Animals deserve good protection and a life according to their nature and needs. Animal rights must be included in the constitution. -END-
The conviction that we should think about animal rights is quite new, if you put it in the perspective of human history.
I guess you can say it began with Peter Albert David Singer AC (1946 - ...), an Australian moral philosopher. 
He specializes in applied ethics and approaches ethical issues from a secular, utilitarian perspective. He is known in particular for his book "Animal Liberation", in which he argues in favour of veganism.
Published in 1975, Animal Liberation has been cited as a formative influence on leaders of the modern animal liberation movement.
The central argument of the book is an expansion of the utilitarian concept that "the greatest good of the greatest number" is the only measure of good or ethical behaviour, 
and Singer believes that there is no reason not to apply this principle to other animals, arguing that the boundary between human and "animal" is completely arbitrary. 
There are far more differences between a great ape and an oyster, for example, than between a human and a great ape, 
and yet the former two are lumped together as "animals", whereas we are considered "human" in a way that supposedly differentiates us from all other "animals."
The Animal Rights Movement, or rights liberationists, believe that these basic interests confer moral rights of some kind on the animals, and/or ought to confer legal rights on them.
Utilitarian liberationists, on the other hand, do not believe that animals possess moral rights, but argue, on utilitarian grounds. 
Utilitarianism in its simplest form advocating that we base moral decisions on the greatest happiness of the greatest number, 
that, because animals have the ability to suffer, their suffering must be taken into account in any moral philosophy. 
To exclude animals from that consideration, they argue, is a form of discrimination that they call speciesism.
Speciesism is a form of discrimination based on species membership. It involves treating members of one species as morally more important than members of other species even when their interests are equivalent.
This is a whole new debate we inherited from the 20th century and you can imagine, that we are not done yet with this subject.
Thank you for your attention again....

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: The floor is yours :-))


[13:18] herman Bergson: Guess you're all vegetarians?   :-))
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): flexitarian:)
[13:19] herman Bergson: So nothing to discuss here ^_^
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:20] CB Axel: Why should I not eat animals. Many animals would eat me if given the chance.
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not 100 % however nowadays there are LOTS of vegetarian food that is really tasty and not as many call it "rabbit food"
[13:20] CB Axel: So I'm not treating them differently.
[13:20] herman Bergson: But what you are witnessing here is a complete change of attitude towards animals in our time
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes here in Europe and thus I guess.. but what about china?
[13:21] herman Bergson: there they eat their dogs :-)
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa indeed
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:21] herman Bergson: But that is in line with CB's remark....
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they treat their animals like it were puppets on a sting
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): string:)
[13:22] herman Bergson: Ought we to be vegetarians....?
[13:22] CB Axel: I do believe the animals should be killed with as little suffering as possible, but lion don't take a human's suffering into consideration when the eat them (I would assume).
[13:22] herman Bergson: There are horrible killing movies of lions and so on on Youtube....
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): muslims kill their animals without painkillers, that is terrible
[13:23] herman Bergson: Animals dont take suffering into account....
[13:23] CB Axel: On the other hand, I would have trouble killing an animal myself.
[13:23] CB Axel: It's hypocritical, I know, but I'd still have a problem with it.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe I've done a fish now and then but thats it (from one with very poor fishing luck also)
[13:24] herman Bergson: I even capture spiders and other insects in the house and put them outside....don't kill them :-)
[13:24] CB Axel: Good point, Bejiita. I have eaten fish I've caught.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well I try do that too
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i once killed a chicken
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and prepared it for dinner
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): unless mosquitos! DAMN BITERS, those I fry  with high voltage
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ZRRRRRRBBBZZZ! MUHAHAHAH
[13:25] CB Axel: But I worked with a guy who would go to school in the state of Maine. He always offered to send me live lobsters.
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): after that I didn't eat chicken for years:(
[13:25] roos Gartner is offline.
[13:25] CB Axel: I  just knew that if he sent me a couple of live lobsters I'd end up with a bathtub full of salt water and two new pets.
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahahaha
[13:26] CB Axel: Claude and Shelly. I even had names picked out.
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:26] herman Bergson: As you see....we have a kind of feeling towards animals.....kind of feeling that not everything is alllowed
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol CB
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:26] CB Axel: (In American English Claude is pronounced like clawed) :)
[13:26] Darks Adria is online.
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha perfect
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:27] herman Bergson: But the question is have animal RIGHTS...
[13:27] herman Bergson: Like we claim that we have the RIGHT to live
[13:27] CB Axel: I do believe animals have some rights.
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes I think so too
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): does an animal have the right to live?
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are alive just as we and so can of course feel something
[13:28] herman Bergson: the other question big is the gulf between a chimp or bonobo and a human
[13:29] herman Bergson: What gives us the right to live, Beertje?
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are discriminating animals..why does an elephant have the right to live and not a fly?
[13:29] CB Axel: Humans are omnivores. We evolved to eat meat. If you tried feeding your cat a vegan diet it would become ill. Humans can manage on a vegan diet, but I don't think we should have to.
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or a moscito?
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why CB?
[13:30] herman Bergson: I agree CB :-)
[13:30] CB Axel: Aren't there Tibetan monks who watch every step they take so they don't step on bugs?
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): flys I can take but mosquitos just try bite me
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ITCH ITCH
[13:30] herman Bergson: Those are buddhist monks
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): esp when I play golf
[13:31] CB Axel: Beertje, I just don't think we must eat vegan if we don't want to .
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's your problem Bejiita not of the mosquito
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he just needs BLOOD:)
[13:31] herman Bergson: When attacked you have the right to defend you...also agains mosquitos :-)
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just wish it would not itsch so damn! why does it have to inject venom at same time!
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): tokeep the wound open:)
[13:32] herman Bergson: Kill the bug, Bejiita ^_^
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the I lay in bed and scratch myself for hours
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): be glad that they are just tiny:)
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ouch
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): such a big man and such a tiny mosquito:)))
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least as I said before there are many nice vegetarian alternatives now that I have tried and really like
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): something called Oumph (who came up with that name) is a new fav
[13:33] Nasty Calamity is offline.
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and quorn is a long time fav too
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a bit like chicken and pulled por
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): k
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so that goes
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:34] herman Bergson: Is there, based on animal rights, a moral obligation for humans to be vegetarian?
[13:35] CB Axel: No. Like I said, they'd eat us if they had the chance. :)
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa a lion for ex see us as food
[13:35] herman Bergson: My idea too, CB
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause they are predators
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe we eat too much meat
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and so are we, that how we starte as hunters
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that I can agree on
[13:36] CB Axel: That's probably true, Beertje.
[13:36] herman Bergson: Aren't we too, Bejiita? Only a bit smarter?
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): were I live there are more pigs then humans
[13:36] CB Axel: I do try to go at least one day a week without meat. It's healthier and better for the planet.
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one thing is for sure, if u sere me pasta bolognese or similar with minced meat I feel no difference between minced qourn and meat, they taste and feel identical
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so both goes just as well for me
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why must that taste like meat?
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and if there is a difference its not in a bad way
[13:37] herman Bergson: funny question, Beertje :-))
[13:38] herman Bergson: ok...
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they have something at a local burger house MAX something they call "plant beef" its a little softer but taste just as good and maybe even better then the meat version I think
[13:39] CB Axel: Why should chocolate taste like chocolate? Because we like the taste.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with that oomph pulled pork thing, I think I like that even better then the real thing
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): slightly
[13:39] theo Velde is online.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as long as taste and consistency is right I eat it
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): right
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): vegetarian or not
[13:40] CB Axel nods
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I think oumphn is soy bean based
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so thins vega meat has to taste like meat...why?
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because it works best with hamburgers and similar,
[13:40] herman Bergson: It is not only about is in general the way we treat animals...
[13:40] CB Axel: There is a noodle restaurant chain I like. I get a Thai noodle dish with tofu instead of meat.
[13:40] CB Axel: Yes, Herman.
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa tofu I eat too
[13:40] herman Bergson: I dislike tofu :-))
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yakkes
[13:41] herman Bergson: yes Beertje ^_^
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): by itself it don't taste much and I have eaten both good and bad so a bit quality differences here I think
[13:41] CB Axel: Temple Grandin did a lot to improve slaughter houses in the US. She works to make them more humane.
[13:41] herman Bergson: For the Netherlands it is forbidden to use wild animals in circus acts
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think animals have a right to have a good life
[13:42] CB Axel: How can you dislike tofu? It tastes like whatever you season it with. :)
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I ate smoked tofu once
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) whispers: yum!
[13:42] CB Axel: Circuses in the US are getting away from using animals, too.
[13:43] herman Bergson: this is a result of the debate on animal rights....
[13:43] CB Axel nods
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:43] herman Bergson: and this shows how our attitude towards animals is changing in favor of animals
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's about time
[13:44] herman Bergson: towards the idea that animals really have rights
[13:44] theo Velde is offline.
[13:44] herman Bergson: We'll dig into this subject a little more next lecture....
[13:45] herman Bergson: Unlesss you have that final question......
[13:45] herman Bergson: Let's conclude this discussion :-)
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now im gonna change into my halloween zombie outfit and go eat some brains!
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) whispers: MUAHAHAHAHAH!
[13:45] herman Bergson: lol
[13:45] bergfrau Apfelbaum: meat has to be more expensive.... than less is bought and more animals live!
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): your own Bejiita?
[13:45] herman Bergson: human brains I guess Bejiita :-)
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:45] CB Axel: I hope those are humanely harvested brains, Bejiita.
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): pixel brains
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....all  brains are eaten already
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oumphn brains left maybe
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): untill thursday...have nice vegetarian meals:)
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu around
[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class:-)
[13:46] herman Bergson: happy Broccoli to all of you :-)
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well im gonna eat a plant beef burger maybe
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): liked those
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:47] CB Axel: Good discussion. Thank you, Herman and everyone.

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