Wednesday, January 27, 2021

897: New Public Management: its Blessings....

 The rise of the nation-state, abolishment of absolutism, growing participation in governing by citizens in the 19th century made that  the question "how to run a state" became a real issue.

Max Weber (1864-1920) was a German sociologist, who argued bureaucracy was the most efficient and rational model private businesses and public offices could operate in. 


His bureaucratic theories influenced generations of business leaders and politicians well into the 20th century. 

Bureaucracy - don't confuse it with the pejorative term "Red Tape"- in a political theory is mainly a centralized form of management 


and tends to be differentiated from ad hoc management in which management tends more to decentralization.

The typical Weberian Public Administration  could be described by  terms like hierarchical organization, formal lines of authority (chain of command),  a fixed area of activity, record-keeping and file creating,


a rigid division of labor, all decisions, and powers specified and restricted by regulations, officials with expert training in their fields, qualifications evaluated by organizational rules, not individuals.


"Precision, speed, unambiguity, knowledge of files, continuity, discretion, unity, strict subordination, reduction of friction 


and of material, and personal costs – these are raised to the optimum point in the strictly bureaucratic administration," wrote Weber. 


You can imagine that this can lead to an extensive civil service. In the 1960s given the economic situation, one began to feel the financial burden of the welfare state.


The governments had to cut back and, there was the theory that could justify a lot and promised all the best: New Public Management.


NPM is the transfer of business and market principles and management techniques from the private into the public sector, symbiotic with and based on a neo-liberal understanding of state and economy. 


The goal, therefore, is a slim, reduced, minimal state in which any public activity is decreased and, if at all, exercised according to business principles of efficiency. 


NPM is based on the understanding that all human behavior is always motivated by self-interest and, specifically, profit maximization, which is as we have shown a misconception. 


Epistemologically, it shares with Standard Textbook Economics the quantification myth, which means that everything relevant can be quantified. Qualitative judgments are not necessary. 


The theory originates from the 1980s with their dominance of neo-liberal governments, especially Thatcher and Reagan, and the perceived crisis of the Welfare state, but it came to full fruition in the early 1990s.


The state is denoted primarily by its monopoly of power, force, and coercion on one side and its orientation towards the public good.  


The business world legitimately focuses on profit maximization. NPM, however, as it has been said, “harvests” the public.


It sees no difference between public and private interests. The use of business techniques within the public sphere thus confuses the most basic requirements of any state, 


particularly of a democracy, with a liability: regularity, transparency, and due process are simply much more important than low costs and speed. 


Where this leads to, we have seen in the Netherlands with the Child Benefits Affair. There was a special department established for anti-fraud.


It got 25 million euros and the instruction that it had to earn it back by refunds of benefits, which were received by fraud.


The result: go for profit maximization (!) which resulted in 26,000 families being unfairly plunged into deeply personal and financial misery, 


while in court cases all kinds of information were withheld by the government. That is what NPM had led to: the Product Group Anti-Fraud had to deliver their product; maximum profit.


Thank you for your attention again.....


MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Gabriel van den Brink:"Ruw Ontwaken uit een Neoliberale Droom",, 2020

 The Discussion 


[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): some families had even 200.000 Euro to pay

[13:27] herman Bergson: yes...absurd....

[13:27] CB Axel: That's crazy.

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so antifraud became fraud

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for profit

[13:27] CB Axel: sounds like it

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): crazy and sad yes

[13:28] herman Bergson: It shows how the NPM system was totallly disconnected  from human interest

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes  in fact the civil service was fraudulent in court cases

[13:29] herman Bergson: just to keep their targets.....

[13:29] CB Axel: I hope they were all fired.

[13:29] herman Bergson: cashing 25 million a year

[13:30] herman Bergson: Well...CB...THAT is the problem...not a single individual decisionmaker has been held accountable....

[13:30] CB Axel: Sounds like the US. :(

[13:30] herman Bergson: although they BROKE the law!

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well it is wat Trump did, ran the entire US as a buisness

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): AT LEAST HE TRIED TO

[13:31] CB Axel: He can't even run a business successfully.

[13:31] herman Bergson: :-)

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wel no, all his earnings are also based of fraud and lies and sor some reason he has gotten away with it all time

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even up to the presidents chair

[13:32] herman Bergson: The Supreme Court helped him today by dismissing all emoluments lawsuits against him ^_^

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) whispers: GAAAAAAAAAHHHH!

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed he gets away with EVERYTHING in some way (sigh)

[13:32] herman Bergson: Come on, Bejiita...his presidency has cost him a fortune...:-)

[13:33] CB Axel: And the Republicans in the Senate are not going to vote against him in the impeachment trial.

[13:33] CB Axel: They all stick together and keep the fraud and corruption going.

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hass it, well i read he did actually not get any profit from that

[13:33] CB Axel: I'm going to write to my Senators and give them a piece of my mind.

[13:34] herman Bergson: Do so CB....that  bunch of weasels :-)

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and nettles

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and a rattlesnake

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:35] herman Bergson: But again to get back to NPM....this view of an individual that acts only on self interest....

[13:35] herman Bergson: it is not what we are....

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed not

[13:35] CB Axel: Government should not be run for profit, imo.

[13:35] herman Bergson: As I showed in previous lectures....we still are social animals

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): SOME are but

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): most are indeed Herman

[13:36] herman Bergson: Hovernment never should be run for should be run to serve the people

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:37] herman Bergson: But this management attidude has influenced the minds of civil servants.....

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not as a money vacuum cleaner aimed at everyones wallets

[13:38] herman Bergson: business is based on market there has to be competition...

[13:39] herman Bergson: but a civil service that registers birth certificates, issues can it be run as a comapmy when there is no competiion or a market of supply and demand?

[13:39] herman Bergson: In the 1990s I have experienced this NPM changemyself as a professor....

[13:40] herman Bergson: slowly but steadily thelanguage changed.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: students became customers, teaching became delivering a product...

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its crazy indeed

[13:41] herman Bergson: and all this inspired by the neoliberal philosophy about the human being as a self interested consumer

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): EVERYTHING is a product that can be sold for profit

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): UGH

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the results indeed devastating

[13:43] herman Bergson: I think at least Europe is at a turning point has to rethink its social policies...its economic theories

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): someone need to unplug that vacuum cleaner

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and open it and give the money inside back to the people

[13:43] herman Bergson: It is happenign Bejiita....

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that i hope

[13:44] CB Axel: Look who I invited to class. :)

[13:44] herman Bergson: lol....BERNIE MITTENS  :-)

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahhahaha i like it CB

[13:44] herman Bergson: Great!

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Bernies Mittens:))

[13:45] CB Axel: Bernie wants the money to go to the people. :)

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:45] herman Bergson: It CAME from the people, is just a matter of redistribution....

[13:45] herman Bergson: a fair redistribution

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:46] herman Bergson: If you just think for a moment......

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but can Bernie do that?

[13:46] CB Axel: Correct, Herman, but the right wing doesn't want their wealth giving to anyone else.

[13:47] herman Bergson: every penny the government has comes from the taxpayers

[13:47] CB Axel: Bernie is now the head of the budget committee (I think that's what it's called), so he has a little more power now.

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki

[13:47] herman Bergson: yes...seems they are scared of him now :-))

[13:48] CB Axel: There's also a group who doesn't think the federal government doesn't need to worry about deficit spending or national debt, because if the government needs more money, all they have to do is print it.

[13:48] CB Axel: I forget what it's called.

[13:49] herman Bergson: I guess you've got a feeling now of the monolithic,  cold approach of NPM with respect to citizens....

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but printing more money cause inflation right?

[13:50] herman Bergson: The belief that you can insert the idea of market forces in civil services....

[13:50] CB Axel: That's what I think, Bejiita.

[13:51] CB Axel: But all I know about that sort of thing is what I learned from the Andrew Lloyd Weber musical Evita. :(

[13:52] herman Bergson: I am no I rest my case in these matters

[13:52] herman Bergson: Maybe a good moment too to dismiss class ^_^

[13:52] herman Bergson: Thank you all again :-)

[13:53] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman and class.

[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Thank you Herman and class!

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thankyou Herman

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well something to think about again

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:53] herman Bergson: A pitty Gemma could attend the class

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): she will read the blog

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:54] herman Bergson: She will...I know...

Sunday, January 24, 2021

896: Homo Economicus.........

 In a previous project we defended the thesis, that most people are OK. It almost felt counter-intuitive. Therefore is a possible explanation.


Some religions see man as bad by nature, but what probably has more effect, is, that we are told almost every day how bad people are.


All new media report mainly about people and evil or criminal behavior. What isn't clear most of the time, is, that they report about small minorities.


Citizens often do not see enough of what is happening in society in the social field. This is understandable because the daily news is mainly about all kinds of problems. 


The reality of ordinary life is hardly discussed in the media. Consequently, there is a significant asymmetry between the image that many have of society and what actually happens in society.

Something similar happens with the homo economicus, the calculating, money and profit-oriented individual. If you meet his needs you are doing well, the conviction is often.


That is the conviction of neoliberal politicians and their focus on economics. But is it that, which leads to a sound and just society? Let's have a closer look.


To get an answer we'll turn to the World Happiness Report. (


The World Happiness Report ranks 153 countries around the world according to how happy their citizens perceive themselves to be. 


2020 marks the eighth edition of the report and has the theme “environments for happiness”. It examines data from 2017, 2018, and 2019 to put together a conclusive ranking.


The ranking is compiled using data from the Gallup World Poll, in which respondents are asked to evaluate the happiness of their own lives on a scale of one to 10. 


Using the survey results, the ranking also shows the estimated extent to which six different factors impact happiness: 


[1] Gross Domestic [2] Product per capita, [3] Life expectancy, [4] Generosity, Social support, [5] Freedom, [6] Corruption.


Among other things, the report underlines the thesis that mutual support and social networks are very important. 


The decisive question is whether people in their immediate environment can rely on a social network to promote not only their happiness but also their health. 


It is certainly important when economic crises and other setbacks present themselves. Where the social network is well developed, 


such a crisis can even bring about more happiness because in that case, people come to mutual support and cooperation


The report (2017 version) refutes the common view that happiness is primarily about salary levels. Non-economic aspects appear to be much more important, 


such as the experience that one's work gives a certain status, that you can establish social relations, that you achieve your goals.


In summary, you can say that people are not primarily happier from a higher salary, but just from cooperation, social support, social networks, relatives, family..


But where does that homo economicus come from? It was created by politicians, administrators, and policymakers, who still want to see humans as calculating creatures with a hint of greed.


An important cause is, that the Civil services adopted in the 1980s  the ideas of "New Public Management"  (NPM), 


a politically-conservative appeal for government to reduce bureaucracy and adopt private sector, management models.


Maybe it would be interesting next time to go into more detail about NPM and its great influence, but for the Netherlands, I can at least say that it has been a major failure


Thank you for your attention again.....    


MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Gabriel van den Brink:"Ruw Ontwaken uit een Neoliberale Droom",, 2020

The Discussion  

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:18] Cia (cyberpedia.bolissima): Thank you, sir

[13:18] herman Bergson: So your conclusion can be that not a higher salary, but social support and networks etc create human happiness

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): reducing bureaucracy sounds good

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): how

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i call it

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): paper turning

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sometimes I think we need it

[13:19] herman Bergson: The underlying idea is that it is not all about and only about money in creating a just society

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:19] CB Axel: Turning everything over to the private sector is a bad idea.

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): really bad

[13:20] CB Axel: They just take our money and give poor service.

[13:20] herman Bergson: That is a proven fact these days CB

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they just chase profit

[13:20] CB Axel: Tell that to US r

[13:20] CB Axel: *US Republicans

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh

[13:20] herman Bergson: The NPM ideas are still strong......but also crumbling slowly

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh h

[13:21] Cia (cyberpedia.bolissima): still, the private sector is "us" ...therefore "we" must value social support, too.

[13:21] herman Bergson: Behind me you see the first 20 countries in the happiness list

[13:21] Rebecca (rebecca.rozen) is offline.

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): by private sector I think we mean corporations here

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): big business

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ?

[13:22] CB Axel: I can't believe the US is in the top 20.

[13:22] Cia (cyberpedia.bolissima): please don't bring politics into this as "we" all are a product of politics of one from or another and "we" all still value social support

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they did not add 2020 cb

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:22] CB Axel: LOL

[13:22] herman Bergson: There you begin to hear ideas about their social responsibilities.....maximization of profits loses its priority somewhat

[13:23] CB Axel: I'm curious about what countries are in the bottom 20.

[13:23] herman Bergson: The US is number 20 Gemma :-)

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that i can believe

[13:23] herman Bergson: At the very bottom are Zambia, Sudan, if I am not mistaken

[[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): North Korea?

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Syria (if there is anyone left alive there)

[13:24] CB Axel: MBla?

[13:24] herman Bergson: Netherlands is number 6 :-)

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(

[13:24] Cia (cyberpedia.bolissima): the US has been run by democrates, almost exclusively, for the last few decades put things into perspective if one must.

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i figured

[13:24] herman Bergson: Typo =  Zambia

[13:24] CB Axel: Ah. Thank you.

[13:25] herman Bergson: It was Clinton who embraced the NPM

[13:25] Ladyy Haven (ladyy.haven) is offline.

[13:25] Cia (cyberpedia.bolissima): It looks like the Western World wins out by far.

[13:25] herman Bergson: and the homo economicus belief with it

[13:26] herman Bergson: There is a link to the report in my lecture

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will look

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki

[13:27] herman Bergson: For the future there may come a shift from economics to more social aspects of society and a leaving of the belief in market forces as the driving power in society

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): money is not everything

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that we know

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): friends, love, social company in general

[13:28] Cia (cyberpedia.bolissima): money is everything

[13:28] herman Bergson: But neoliberalism has still deep roots

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): like in the 70 ties...flower power time?

[13:29] herman Bergson: even so deep that when you point at these social aspects of society in the US they call you a socialist a pejorative meaning

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:31] herman Bergson: New Public Management had done much  harm already. I told you about the Child benefits affair here in the Netherlands for instance

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well

[13:33] herman Bergson: The view of man  of it is wrong and one-sided

[13:34] herman Bergson: I can hear you thinking :-)

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hard

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): "CRUNCH CRUNCH"

[13:35] herman Bergson: I'd say, keep doing that and I'll prepare for the next lecture

[13:35] Cia (cyberpedia.bolissima): :)

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): need to read more about New public Management

[13:35] herman Bergson: Mayby NPM is interesting and otherwise we gonna start thinking of a new approach and replacement of neoliberalism as the mani political view

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:36] herman Bergson: OK Gemma.....then I'll dig into it for next Tuesday

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): problem maybe is, that we are used to the system

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we got a bit

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes might be so indeed

[13:37] herman Bergson: We are used to the system Beertje, quite right....

[13:37] herman Bergson: It's everywhere.....

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope i can make it tuesday

[13:38] herman Bergson: But we can change our world too

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is in wiki so will look at it

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a individuals?

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): as

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes there is a lot of information available

[13:38] herman Bergson: We are not alone with our ideas Beertje :-)

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont):

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Just don't mix it up with Node Package Manager, a completely different thing

[13:39] Cia (cyberpedia.bolissima): Is New Public Management another way of saying New World Order?

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that i like to use

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :9

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:39] CB Axel:

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): got it

[13:39] herman Bergson: For Civil Servecis it meant a new world order indeed CIa

[13:40] Cia (cyberpedia.bolissima): so ...Agenda 2030, then

[13:40] CB Axel: So it's not turning over public services to the private sector?

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): NPM is as i get it basically making money on peoples health and education/future

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the privatization issue

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:41] CB Axel: It's just trying to run government services like a private company focused on giving good service and product?

[13:41] herman Bergson: No it is introducing business and management models in the civil bureaucracy....

[13:41] CB Axel: That might not be so bad.

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mixing it together sort of?

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we just got out of that kind of gov

[13:41] CB Axel: I would like to see more efficiency.

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): always

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in any case NPM don't sound like a good thing

[13:41] herman Bergson: clients become customers......police doesn't produces a product  and so on

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:42] herman Bergson: Efficiency increase was the promise of NPM

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so it had good intentions

[13:42] Cia (cyberpedia.bolissima): so elections and democracies will become obsolete?

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the beginning

[13:42] herman Bergson: on the contrary......

[13:42] CB Axel: Why would that be the case, Cia?

[13:43] CB Axel: If we don't like the service we're getting we can vote them out.

[13:43] herman Bergson: The people should be heard, be involved in shaping society

[13:43] herman Bergson: That is what John Locke already had in mind CB :-)

[13:43] CB Axel: Just like in the public sector, if we don't like the service we're getting we can vote with our feet and go somewhere else.

[13:44] herman Bergson: right :-)

[13:45] herman Bergson: Ok, guess we are ready for the next lecture now :-)

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa checked a bit now at least

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): * PLUPP *

[13:45] herman Bergson: Unless you have that last question or remark.....thank you all again

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): time!

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will do homework

[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[13:45] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman and class!

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting lecture again

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): always

[13:46] herman Bergson: It is an interesting subject Gemma

[13:46] CB Axel: I'm looking forward to next week. :)

[13:46] herman Bergson: Where did it come from.....? to begin with

[13:46] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman and class.

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope to make it Tuesday

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): shall see

[13:46] CB Axel: I hope you can, Gemma.

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see you !!!

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu then

[13:47] bergfrau Apfelbaum: see you Gemma:-)

[13:47] herman Bergson: I keep my fiingers crossed Gemma ^_^

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Gemma

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

Thursday, January 21, 2021

895: Deep embedded........

 As student of epistemology (theory of knowledge), logic and philosophy of science, I have to share something with you.


It seems that millions of Americans find that this is sound and rational reasoning. This intellectual tour de force is performed by Lou Dobbs.


Lou Dobbs some news show anchorman on Fox News. The reasoning went like this.


Dobbs: Where is the evidence? We KNOW, that the election was stolen. Why is the evidence so hard to find?


After a 60 failed lawsuits because of lack of evidence, the answer could be simply:  Because there IS no evidence,


hence the election was NOT stolen. However, this is an unacceptable conclusion for Dobbs, because he KNOWS, that the election was stolen.


It is easy to point a finger at Americans, but if we look at our present subject I can tell you that also in The Netherlands 


xenophobia and racism and dogmatic right-wing neoliberalism are deeply embedded in our society too.


In 2015 the Participation Law was accepted. It should help long-term unemployed who had psychological or physical problems or disabilities to find a job. The law is now qualified as a failure.


A large group of citizens of my country is on the sidelines and is either ignored or mistrusted and subjected to a "nothing for free"- regime that does not even shy away from encroachment on the subsistence minimum.


Mistrust is the biggest flaw in our concept of social security. The concept of man behind it is not good: the belief 


that it is your own responsibility, that you have no work, income or education.It primarily  is your own fault and doesn't fake a disability or psychic problem.


This law turned out to be nothing less than a ruthless cutback wrapped in high-flown words like participatory society and inclusive labor market.


An even worse example is what is called "de toeslagenaffaire" (benefits affair), which is the talk of the town these days. 


Thousands of citizens lost their house, their job, their health, their marriage. Yesterday the cabinet stepped down because of it.


The Childcare Benefits Scandal  is a political scandal in the Netherlands concerning false allegations of fraud 


made by the Tax and Customs Administration while attempting to police the distribution of childcare benefits. 


It is estimated that, between 2013 and 2019, authorities wrongly accused 26,000 parents of making fraudulent claims to childcare benefit,


requiring them to pay back the allowance they had received in its entirety. In many cases, this sum amounted to tens of thousands of euros, driving families into severe financial hardship.


But here is the thing: the people who were tackled by the Tax and Customs Administration were not the average Dutchman.


The target was people with foreign family names, Turkish, Eastern-europian names etc.. In other words, the Dutch with non-Dutch family names were a priori distrusted without ANY evidence.


The people behind this have acted immorally. It was all about ethnic profiling, nice populist prejudices.


Conclusion: there still is a lot of work to do all over the world.


Thank you for your attention.....



MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Gabriel van den Brink:"Ruw Ontwaken uit een Neoliberale Droom",, 2020



The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: I know it is not a nice story, but factual

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I have heard that all debts of those 25,000 parents have been canceled and that they receive 30,000 Euros for the damage

[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes they finally did something good

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but far too late

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it cannot repair a marriage

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(

[13:23] herman Bergson: The parents would receive 30.000 euro...and the Dutch IRS would immediately claim up to 20.000 euro of it.....

[13:23] CB Axel: The thing that bothers me most about all this nationalism is that we probably wouldn't have as many immigrants as we do if western nations hadn't meddled in the elections and politics of South American, African, Asian, and Middle Eastern countries to begin with.

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes but they don't now

[13:23] CB Axel: So the west destroys their countries and make them unsafe, and then we complain when they leave their homes to come here.

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) is online.

[13:23] herman Bergson: But now they have said...all debts with government  institutions are canceled....

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:24]  There was someone in the Lecturehall:  Gemma Cleanslate!

[13:24] CB Axel: Hi, Gemma.

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hallo Gemma

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): /sorry

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): late

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the sad thing is indeed that the attempts to overthrow leaders in middle east like Saddam ect just have made everything even worse

[13:25] herman Bergson: Hi Gemma :-)

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause it seems good side win only on film, in reality evil wins

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just gets worse

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): waits for rezzzzzz

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Syrian war ect

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hui Gemma

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi

[13:26] bergfrau Apfelbaum: heyy Gemma:-)

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cant sit yet nothing but

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):  •░░•  яєу  •░░•

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oops

[13:27] herman Bergson: What is clear here is that in the Netherlands immigrants are equally like in the US regarded as potential frauds and criminals

[13:27] herman Bergson: By the government!

[13:28] CB Axel: Maybe that's because we know what frauds and criminals we are in their countries of origin.

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that same image goes here too that the immigrants are just murderers and robbers and such

[13:28] CB Axel: It's like when Trump calls someone stupid or weak. He projects his faults on everyone else.

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i think i have an explanation

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and i am sure some of them were in their own country too

[[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are revolting because we don't treat them well

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if you got treated like shit, that you are nothing, what would u do?

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is a bit why they fall into criminality i think, the gangs ate all they have

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): are

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma of 100 immigrants maybe 1.5% is criminal.....of 100 citizens you can say the same

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct

[13:30] herman Bergson: Most people are still holds...where ever they come from

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:30] CB Axel: But if our governments hadn't acted criminally in their countries they may not have come here in the first place.

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the handful of criminals spoil it for the people who badly need the shelter

[13:31] CB Axel: True, Beertje.

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:31] herman Bergson: What the goverment should have done is not plundering the resources of those countries but help them to develop

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that in the first place

[13:32] CB Axel: Yes, And the trade fairly with them.

[13:32] herman Bergson: But it is all about profit

[13:32] CB Axel: *and then

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sure Saddam and Khadaffi ect were tyrants that had to be removed but this was the wrong way and the result was even worse, IS, Entire Syria wiped of the map along with at least 70% of the people

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is the sad result

[13:32] CB Axel: Yes. Exploiting poorly run countries is much more profitable than trading fairly with them.

[13:33] herman Bergson: Indeed CB

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the oil was a contributor i guess

[13:34] CB Axel: From silk and spices to oil and diamonds and gold. The west hasn't always been an honest trader.

[13:34] herman Bergson: And time and again we run into this dogma of more, more, economic growth.......more profits

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eee NOPE

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the next war is about clean water

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmmm :(

[13:35] herman Bergson: That will become an issue indeed Beertje

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well stop polluting the fresh water we have then!

[13:35] CB Axel: Probably Beertje. And habitable land away from rising oceans.

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats one step

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Herman can live with us..i live 20 mtrs above sea-level:)

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): your country does more about water than anyone

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we have some good irrigation pumps at my company,

[13:36] herman Bergson: with a 100 years the Netherlands has to be surrounded by a gigantic dike....otherwise we'll lose half of the country to the sea....including Amsterdam

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but they will probably not be enough the biggest i thing is 40 kW

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): at least we will never see it

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): made for golf irrigation, not flood prevention

[13:37] herman Bergson: No, we won't Gemma.....thanks heaven :-)

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bur our children do

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but

[13:38] herman Bergson: But it is hard to know that you have to leave it to your grandchildren to deal with it

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they will do something about it in the meantime

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i bet

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we have to act now..

[13:38] herman Bergson: That's what I believe too, Gemma ^_^

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe not save everything

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's time to do that

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but i bet they figure something out

[13:38] CB Axel: Gemma, that's what people have been doing for generations.

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:38] herman Bergson: Indeed

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very positive thinking cb

[13:39] CB Axel: We've known there are problems with pollution, but we keep ignoring it hoping someone else will fix it.

[13:39] herman Bergson: That is why I still can be an optimist :-))

[13:39] herman Bergson: That "some one else" exists, CB :-)

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is it a optimistic thought that you leave your grandchildren with such huge problems?

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinnks so

[13:40] CB Axel: When optimism makes us keep kicking the problem down the road because "someone" will figure it out, it's dangerous.

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all generations have doen that beertje

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): look back

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we can change that

[13:40] CB Axel: We are the "someone else."

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we hope

[13:40] herman Bergson: Keep in mind......

[13:40] herman Bergson: Problems don't exist....

[13:41] herman Bergson: Lack of solutions takes time to find them

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the solutions are only missing?

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): like vaccines

[13:41] herman Bergson: Lots of people are working on them Beertje

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if rules were ot passed we would probably have no fish to ear

[13:42] herman Bergson: Indeed...we found solutions for the pandemic in no time....

[13:42] CB Axel: And the US government has been ignoring the solutions because it would be bad for business.

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): eat

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): things will change some now cb

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): starting tomorrow!!!!!!!!

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YEAH

[13:43] herman Bergson: \o/

[13:43] CB Axel: Not when big business owns our government.

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they wont

[13:43] CB Axel: The do already.

[13:43] CB Axel: They do

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): actually they have been pulling back

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): did you not see?

[13:43] CB Axel: They have been pulling back from Trump.

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it IS possible to go fast but when the profit demons throws the monkey wrench into the machine by asking (when can we se a profit? it al dies

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): huge companies stopping  donations

[13:44] herman Bergson: yes indeed

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to the republic party

[13:44] CB Axel: To Trump and a handful of the most radical Republicans.

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and especially certain rads yes

[13:44] Anuska (anuska.loon) is offline.

[13:45] herman Bergson: Cheer up, CB ^_^

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I am convinced we will see some good changes

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): rejoin the Paris accord

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): accord

[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for one

[13:45] CB Axel: I know we will. I just don't know if there will be enough changes.

[13:45] Frederica Lexenstar is offline.

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i bet tomorrow !!! afternoon!!!

[13:46] herman Bergson: undoing a large number of Trumpian executive orders

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no parties to go to so will do that

[13:46] CB Axel: Yes. We'll rejoin the Paris Accords before the end of the week if not the end of the day tomorrow.

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we will see

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just wish that when LHC fires up soon it could make things happen but as impressive it is it is still no miracle machine

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even I wish it was

[13:47] herman Bergson: Is rejoining the World Health Organization on the list too?

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): also cancelling the ban on muslim travel here

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think so

[13:47] CB Axel: I believe so, Herman.

[13:47] CB Axel: I hope so.

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ye

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): press COLLIDE button and all world issues POFF away

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the Iran accord

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wish that was possible with it

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the world poffs away Bejiita:)

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but its not its just a particle accelerator

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is it working again bej?

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well Pompeo has done a number of nasty things just before leaving.....

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): starting up

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes \

[13:48] herman Bergson: which pissed off China and Iran

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but in cool down phase still

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and half of Europe would not meet with him!!!!!!!!!

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): idiot!!!

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Biden has a lot to do the coming 4 years

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good by to him

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Trump just forbid EVERYONE from doing business with Huawei as last count

[13:49] CB Axel: Until we start throwing people like Trump, Giuliani, Pompeo, etc in jail, they'll just keep doing what they do.

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Huawei

[13:49] CB Axel: We have to get serious about holding them accountable.

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): fingers crossed for the NY courts!!

[13:49] herman Bergson: They have to prosecuted...thats for sure

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tehy have loads of stuff on trump

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): has Trump pardoned himself today?

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): LOADS

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no he will not

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the lawyers told him no

[13:50] CB Axel: Beertje, last I heard he isn't going to.

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and he listened

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed mr T cant escape after all he have done including that crazy mob a la Hitler style

[13:50] herman Bergson: He can't.....because then he declared in advance that he is guilty of crimes

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am waiting to see the list of pardons

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): should come out tonight

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes that's why I asked

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): 400000 deaths from covid

[13:51] herman Bergson: yes indeed....also a tricky issue......

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as of today

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes I saw that on CNN

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): terrible

[13:51] CB Axel: Well, 6 January wasn't exactly Kristalnacht, but it woke some people up.

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the richest country

[13:51] CB Axel: Sorry if I spelled that wrong.

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some yes

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no that's a right spelling

[13:51] herman Bergson: Spelled correctly CB

[13:51] CB Axel: Yay for me!

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): especially the homeland security

[13:52] herman Bergson: \o/

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaaa

[13:52] herman Bergson: As I said...there still is a lot to do in this world :-))

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sure is

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hm indeed CB maybe not exactly like that but still

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): totally crazy

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we are only talking about the country issues

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that a president could do a such thing

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so many other countries issues

[13:53] herman Bergson: It always amazes me to see how ONE single person can influence history so much

[13:53] CB Axel: I just rewatched the play "What the Constitution Means to Me," and one thing that I liked and gives me hope is that changes in our laws are like a woman walking a dog on a beach.

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks that he is not the only man whoo is doing it

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there are little trumps in other countries

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hanging on to power

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well Trump will share the shelf with Hitler and Stalin at least as some of the worst swines ever walking the globe

[13:54] Wisdomseeker (lissena) is online.

[13:54] herman Bergson: yes yes...that is always the case....such  a person is facilitated by a specific group

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he might

[13:55] CB Axel: The dog runs ahead and then comes back to the woman. Then it runs ahead and comes back. Even though, if you watch the dog it looks like we're not moving forward, the woman is.

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): along with Khadaffi and the Syria killer

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): don't forget the "little rocket man"

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): man

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep,, he is having nuke parades again i saw

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i saw his parade yesterday

[13:56] herman Bergson: Trump has performed like he performed in all his undertakings......ending up as a loser....

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): mssed that

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he did fire a lot of people tho

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes like a 3 year in sandbox

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good people

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): discharged through the back door

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lucky they saw the tweets

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): UR DUMB UR FIRED UR DUMB UR FIRED WAAAAHHH WAAAAAAAH!

[13:56] herman Bergson: by Twitter

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he might come up with a new twitter thing of his own

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he is still dangerous

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes

[13:57] herman Bergson: He'll need a hobby in jail :-)

[13:57] CB Axel: That's why he needs to go to jail.

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): fingers crossed

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Trump cant program so, and no honored programmer would want to write anything for him (i hope9

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): )

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh i disagree bej

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the Deutsche Bank want's all the money back:))

[13:58] herman Bergson: There are always rats onboard, Bejiita

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some of those people climbing in the broken windows i bet

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well some coders write viruses

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): programmers

[13:58] CB Axel: But we have to take down Lindsay Graham, Mitch McConnell, Ted Cruz, and a whole lot more.

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some of those might help him

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they will CB

[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): removes mcconnell from that list

[13:59] herman Bergson: Yeah CB....

[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): stupid as he has been

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or one of their Russian hackers that "helped" him win the election as rumors say

[13:59] CB Axel: McConnell has to go.

[13:59] herman Bergson: Macconnel is done now...

[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am not sure

[13:59] CB Axel: He's a horror.

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Graham is dangerous too

[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i know

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders again)

[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes he sure is

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[14:00] herman Bergson: Graham is the worst, spineless opportunist

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it will be interesting to see the trial

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who does what

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can't wait to see that

[14:00] CB Axel: Graham has at least two faces.

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its all a cement mixer now

[14:00] theo Velde is online.

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have lost track of all rats

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[14:00] herman Bergson: Only TWO, CB?

[14:00] CB Axel: LOL

[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true

[14:01] CB Axel: I was thinking he's more like a 12 sided die.

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): when the wind blows, his jacket blows

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[14:01] herman Bergson: that's closer to the facts indeed :-)

[14:01] herman Bergson: Ok....we are all in good mood now for tomorrow....

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one doing that cant ever be taken seriously

[14:02] herman Bergson: time to move on......

[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): checks bergies gift

[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to the table

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): * PLUPP *

[14:02] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation :-)

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :9

[14:02] CB Axel: And just because McConnell is possibly going to vote for Trump's impeachment we shouldn't let him off the hook for aiding and abetting a president who, at best, is incompetent, and, at worst, mentally deficient.

[14:02] Ciska Riverstone is online.

[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[14:02] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you for the very interesting hour Herman and class

[14:02] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu Gema

[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[14:02] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman and class.

[14:02] bergfrau Apfelbaum: hahahaha

[14:07] CB Axel: I'll see you all Thursday. :)

[14:07] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my poor head:)

[14:07] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha

[14:07] herman Bergson: See you CB :-)

[14:07] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): see you CB, take care

[14:07] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs CB

[14:07] bergfrau Apfelbaum: * PLUPP * PLUPP * PLUPP * 

[14:07] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ?