Thursday, May 1, 2014

527: Japanese thinking.........

Although there have been some forms of ritual suicide in the Western tradition, there is something profoundly alien to the Western sensibility about the particular form of seppuku.

We can, many of us, imagine killing ourselves, but the idea of plunging a sword into one's abdomen and having the strength of will to keep the blade in, 

for the musculature of the lower body naturally tries to eject it, as one pulls it across to the other side, slicing through a variety of vital organs and entrails is surely incomprehensible to the large majority of Westerners.

Yet, this was what Yukio Mishima (1925 - 1970) did on November 25 in 1970 and he did this for his ideal 

to abolish the democratic form of government that had been established after World War II and to restore to Japan its true identity by reestablishing the emperor system.

if we try to think about this man who saw his life and death as embodying traditional Japanese ideas, 

we may learn some things about the way the Japanese have traditionally thought about life and death.

Japanese philosophy tends to concentrate on concrete things and relations within the world rather than on abstractions beyond it. In this it is again like Chinese philosophy,

no elaborate metaphysical descriptions of the heavenly spheres like the Ancient Greek and after them the Arabic philosophers created.

Japan has become one of the most fascinating modern cultures because of the ways its enduring indigenous tradition has continually incorporated a wide range of foreign influences.

While we may wonder about the development of the different philosophical traditions we have discussed so far

and observe how other traditions stopped where Westen philosophy freed itself from religious doctrine 

Japan hasn’t done anything of that sort. It has its traditions, absorbed new comers like Buddhism, Confucianism and in modern times absorbed science and technology with equal ease.

Time and again I run into the observation that apparently all cultures begin with some kind of religion, spirits or gods. 

Is it a human defense mechanism of the mind to come to peace with what it not (yet) can explain and understand?

Likewise Japanese culture began with its interpretation and understanding of reality, the world, life: Shinto

Shinto, which means literally "way of the divine spirits”, is an animistic nature religion, according to which the entire cosmos is "ensouled" and animated by spirits, and which is in many respects similar to the religion of ancient Greece. 

Its two major components are a cult of nature, in which the sun, mountains, trees, waterfalls, rocks, and certain kinds of animals are worshiped as divine, 

and an ancestor cult, in which reverence is paid to the spirits of the ancestors, again often as divinities.

It is defined as an action-centered religion, focused on ritual practices to be carried out diligently, to establish a connection between present-day Japan and its ancient past.

It is a remarkable fact, that an animistic way of thinking about reality can coexist with present day Japanese high tech culture.

To be continued…..Thank you … ^_^

Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
From Africa to Zen, R.C. Solomon & K.M. Higgins
An Introduction to Indian Philosophy, S. Chatterjee & D. Datta

The Discussion

[13:15] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: wwwwww
[13:16] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: sorry
[13:16] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: there is no ancestors cult in shinto
[13:17] Naz: :)
[13:17] Bejiita Imako: Japan is unique id say in that way
[13:17] herman Bergson: That may be so Tresi....but my sources claim otherwise....
[13:18] Bejiita Imako: you have this high tech but still feel the old japan shine through
[13:18] Naz: Although I know a fair bit about various Ch'an traditions, I can't say I know much about Shinto beyond some basics.
[13:18] Tooyaa: you refer to "the ghost in the machine"?
[13:18] herman Bergson: Which ghost Toooyaa?
[13:18] Areyn Laurasia: anime? :)
[13:19] Bejiita Imako: many japanese anime like Naruto and similar you see this old culture and shintoism shine through a lot
[13:19] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: Term Shintō (神道) – “the way of of kami” was invented according to Chinese model of naming of different doctrines: as far as Chinese culture is culture of written signs, doctrines and concepts are expressed in written signs and through these signs can be step by step acquired.
Due to this gradually acquire appears the analogy of “way”, i.e. gradually moving to a certain aim but Shintō was not a "way", it was not a systematic doctrine so we should use this term with certain degree of awareness because using it we accept the Chinese point of view.
[13:19] Naz: I'd say Ankoku Shinwa's a better example than any of these modern kitch animations
[13:19] Bejiita Imako: for ex in naruto several attacks and tecniques have names after gods ect like Amaterasu
[13:19] Bejiita Imako: and also its based on the ninja and samurai period
[13:20] Areyn Laurasia: what is kami?
[13:20] Bejiita Imako: kami = god
[13:20] herman Bergson: are the expert here indeed :-))
[13:20] Gemma Allen: i have little knowledge of japanese philos at all
[13:20] Gemma Allen: interesting
[13:20] Tessa Zalivstok: 今晚はハアマン先生 same character as the shin in shinto
[13:20] Naz: kami is not god per se
[13:21] Tessa Zalivstok:
[13:21] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: basic concepts of Shintō: tamashii/tama “vital energy” ”soul energy”, and kami “a super human being” both r traced back to corresponding concepts of Ainu-Jomon origin which sounds alike and have similar meanings: ramat – “soul exists” and kamuy “super human being":
[13:21] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: no
[13:21] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: kami ain't god
[13:21] herman Bergson: hold on Tresi....:-)
[13:21] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: it's a great mistake to translate it as "god"
[13:21] herman Bergson: Take a look at the debating rules to the left behind me :-))
[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: so many experts here today
[13:21] Chantal: always interesting to see how many different interpretations people have
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: dragonball and naruto have teached me a lot about these things, it was however just lately i found out about this relationship with Japanese gods since otherwise i’d read a lot spoilers wich i dont want
[13:22] Gemma Allen: looks like it means spirits
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: for naruto
[13:22] herman Bergson: as a word...kami means even paper..but it is anothe Kanji :-))
[13:22] Gemma Allen: more than a god
[13:22] Gemma Allen: natural forces??
[13:22] herman Bergson: What is important to us here is that there has survived an animistic religion....
[13:22] Areyn Laurasia: I think Tresi knows what she's talking about :)
[13:23] herman Bergson: next to a high tech society and Buddhism....
[13:23] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: It should be noted that concept kamuy differs seriously from European concepts deus / god / Gott / dios / deux because European god (God of christianity) is a transcendental being opposite to this world while kamuy exists in the neighborhood of people and people can easily get kamuy mosir (island of kamuy) and also people can become kamuy.
[13:23] herman Bergson: I hope I do too Areyn and can rely on the quality of my sources :-))
[13:23] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: kamuy is root concept from which word kami originated later
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: aaa
[13:24] Gemma Allen: I doubt that any culture on earth ever began without believing in some sort of spirit world and or a god of some sort
[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...that is my point here...
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: indeed the god concept in shintoism is very special
[13:24] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: Because of it, the word kamuy should not be translated as dew /god / Gott / dios / deux into European languages. I think the best way is to leave the word kamuy without any translation at all and explain its meaning with a certain context.
[13:24] herman Bergson: We got it Tresi...thank you..:-))
[13:25] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: etymology of Japanese kami is the following: Old Ainu (Upper Jomon Ainu) ka-mu-'i [kamuj] -> Old Japanese kamɯ -> Modern Japanese kami. Meaning kami is completely the same as meaning of kamuy.
[13:25] Tessa Zalivstok: is the character. Ka,i is the Japanese native pronunciation. Shin as in sjinto is the Chinese pronunciation. And Tresi is right
[13:25] herman Bergson: We got it Tresi...thank you..:-))
[13:25] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: "a being above us"
[13:25] herman Bergson: Thank you again....
[13:25] Tessa Zalivstok: kami
[13:25] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: It is very important to understand that often kami is not any personal/anthropomorphous being or a subject or a thing which can be presented, touched or, in general, be felt by means of five feelings. Much more often kami is certain amorphous force, for example, gravitation acting between Earth and Sun also is a kami, forces operating in an atomic nucleus between protons and neutrons also are kami, and other similar phenomena also are kami.
[13:25] herman Bergson: We got it Tresi...thank you..:-))
[13:25] Daruma Boa: as Nietzsche would say: god is dead;-)
[13:26] Chantal: Herman it looks like she is applying for a job
[13:26] herman Bergson: Not for japanese Daruma....:-)
[13:26] Bejiita Imako:
[13:26] Daruma Boa: oh it comes just in my mind;-))
[13:26] herman Bergsonherman Bergson smiles at Chantal
[13:26] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: so there was no ancestors cult as far as ancestors were associated with death i.e. dirt but there was a cult of oustanding people
[13:27] herman Bergson: We'll look into that detail later Tresi, thank you :-)
[13:27] Gemma Allen: so shinto then we will consider as one form of japanese philosophy
[13:27] Gemma Allen: yes?
[13:27] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: ehm
[13:27] Gemma Allen: I iwll read on it
[13:27] Naz: More akin to the Nordic idea of a person's "fame", perhaps
[13:27] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: shinto is base of japanse
[13:27] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: of japanese culture
[13:27] Gemma Allen: ah ok
[13:27] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: it's main background
[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes original way of thinking originating 600BC or so....
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:27] Gemma Allen: ok
[13:27] herman Bergson: and it still is alive....
[13:27] Gemma Allen: good
[13:28] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno:
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: yes this is a great religion if any
[13:28] herman Bergson: it seems 80% of the Japanese have some  idea about Shinto....
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: if you can call it religion, seems to be more then a religion
[13:28] herman Bergson: marraige ceremonies are Shinto....
[13:28] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: it's my book on root shinto written after lectures given in SL
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: aaa ok
[13:29] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: actaully most of japanese don't care much of religious items
[13:29] Daruma Boa: but i guess only the modern japanese
[13:29] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: they just follow some rites
[13:29] herman Bergson: Then you might know Graham Parkes , Tresi...
[13:29] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: ???
[13:29] herman Bergson: Parkes
[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: but they old culture looks through, doesn't it?
[13:30] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: who is that person?
[13:30] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: or what is it?
[13:30] herman Bergson: Check it yourself Tresi....beyond our topic here
[13:30] Daruma Boa: homework
[13:30] Naz: zuru zuru
[13:31] herman Bergson: anyway....a thousands of years tradition survived in Japan next to all kinds of other influences....
[13:31] Naz: Graham Parkes*?
[13:31] Gemma Allen: he looks interesting
[13:31] herman Bergson: yes
[13:31] Daruma Boa: lol gemma - he LOOKS?^^
[13:31] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥
[13:31] Gemma Allen: i checked
[13:32] Daruma Boa: okeee
[13:32] herman Bergson: One of the authors of "From Africa to Zen"
[13:32] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: the most important here is that japanese stay on their own cultural ground as base of the following
[13:32] Gemma Allen: i mean as an expert in japanese philosophies
[13:32] Gemma Allen: asian
[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: Tresi , please let us work out the japanese culture from the European point of view, we won't understand it otherwise
[13:32] Gemma Allen: i should say
[13:32] Gemma Allen: that is true
[13:32] Naz: hahaha Lizzy
[13:32] Gemma Allen: i was thinking
[13:32] Naz: Like Jesuit?
[13:32] Naz: s*
[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: no Naz
[13:32] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: that's why I am here, Lizzy
[13:32] herman Bergson: lol Naz....
[13:32] Gemma Allen: how can we look at any eastern philosophy through their eyes
[13:33] Gemma Allen: never work
[13:33] herman Bergson: They were thrown out of Japan...
[13:33] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: to understand culture u should acquire its POV
[13:33] herman Bergson: only the Dutch were allowed to stay on Deshima :-))
[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: i can only look through my own eyes
[13:33] Gemma Allen: that is why the arabic philosophies were so hard
[13:33] Naz: THe only way to accurately learn about another culture without our own biases is at grassroots level. Eliade showed us the dangers of studying with a "white man's burden" approach.
[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes indeed Gemma....
[13:34] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!
[13:34] Areyn Laurasia: but we didn't have arabs in the class then.. I think we have some Japanese here tonight? :)
[13:34] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: Eliade again lol
[13:34] Paolo Rousselot: wise & honest observation Lizzy
[13:34] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: why dotcha speak of Boas?
[13:34] Corronach: how do you know there weren't arabs in the class? :)
[13:34] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: *dontcha
[13:34] herman Bergson: Hold on
[13:34] Naz: idk Boas, I'll look xir up
[13:35] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: lolwut????
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: heheh
[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: wow what a discussion today!
[13:35] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥
[13:35] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: Franz Boas is auctor et stator of cultural anthropology and ethnic semiotics
[13:35] herman Bergson: I look at the non western philosophies with MY EYES...
[13:35] Bejiita Imako:
[13:35] Gemma Allen: reminds me of early days
[13:35] Daruma Boa: tollwut?
[13:35] herman Bergson: it's the only eyes I have.....
[13:36] Gemma Allen: Hope was a member who always came with opposites
[13:36] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: why Eliade is just a writer
[13:36] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!
[13:36] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...
[13:36] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: *while
[13:36] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: mistype
[13:36] Bejiita Imako:
[13:36] Naz: k, chars
[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: and through your glasses herman ...
[13:36] Chantal: Thank you Herman interesting subject! Tresi thank you for the insights from a Japanese experience!
[13:36] herman Bergson: it is nonsense to suggest that I should look at arabic or japanese philosophy with arabic or japanese frames of mind...or eyes
[13:36] Naz: WHy so?
[13:36] Naz: Sorry, I completely refute that
[13:36] Gemma Allen: i think we would have to live in that culture for a long time
[13:36] Naz: The only way to understand a culture is to subsume one's self
[13:36] Gemma Allen: a long time
[13:36] Naz: within it
[13:37] Paolo Rousselot: or learn the language - that might help
[13:37] Naz: I could never have learnt anything about Hinduism without someone on the inside explaining it to me
[13:37] Gemma Allen: maybe
[13:37] herman Bergson: I do not agree...:-)
[13:37] Naz: Point in case: Lotus feet. They're not feet, for one things haha
[13:37] Daruma Boa: yes naz, thats the best way
[13:37] Tooyaa: the royal class structure which Mishima killed himself for.. what philosophy mandates that?
[13:37] Daruma Boa: to learn from the origion
[13:37] Areyn Laurasia: Corronach, because the class was smaller then and most were regulars.
[13:37] herman Bergson: it is the same as saying that yiu need to be a real christian if you like to comment on the bible
[13:37] Gemma Allen: oh no
[13:38] Naz: No it's not
[13:38] Paolo Rousselot: don't agree there either
[13:38] Gemma Allen: in the beginning the class was twice as large
[13:38] Naz: It's to do with cultural semiotics if anything
[13:38] Gemma Allen: perhaps 20 people most days
[13:38] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: to understand Bible u need to pay attention to the culture that created it
[13:38] Gemma Allen: but that was along time ago
[13:38] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: same is with shinto
[13:38] Naz: ^
[13:38] Gemma Allen: true
[13:38] Paolo Rousselot: or cultures Tresi
[13:38] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: and with any other tarditions
[13:38] herman Bergson: sorry...ost track of the debate here...^_^
[13:38] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: *traditions
[13:39] herman Bergson: What are we talking about?
[13:39] Areyn Laurasia: so we'll see the professor's view here then we can talk more about shintoism after class :)
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: can agree somewa to that too, need to understand the background and so
[13:39] Daruma BoaDaruma Boa is also thinking about
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: cause so complex things we are dealing with
[13:39] Gemma Allen: I grew up in the culture that was based on the New testament with studies of the old testament so understand from that completely how the philosophies began to develop
[13:39] Daruma Boa: yes, thats in a chat
[13:39] Daruma Boa: perhaps with chat lag^^
[13:40] Paolo Rousselot: but Gemma that was seriously distroted too
[13:40] Naz: I'd say anyone without an understanding of Qabbalah and the Talmud and Nag Hammadi doesn't have the grounding needed
[13:40] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!
[13:40] Naz: re: xianity
[13:40] Gemma Allen: of course
[13:40] Naz: but then I'm a purist with my idea of research
[13:40] Paolo Rousselot: probably Naz!
[13:40] Gemma Allen: but is the basis of understanding
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:41] herman Bergson: Naz.....that is the authority argument.....!
[13:41] Paolo Rousselot: get closest to the original source
[13:41] herman Bergson: it rules out intelligence and common HAVE to be an expert before you may have an opinion!
[13:41] (Unnamed):   -  
[13:41] herman Bergson: the authority argument.....a fallacy!
[13:41] Daruma Boa: äm can someone be an expert?
[13:41] Daruma Boa: i guess no
[13:42] Gemma Allen: some are
[13:42] Daruma Boa: everything is changing.
[13:42] Areyn Laurasia: Was Mishima part of the warrior class? Seppuku seems to be something warriors do as part of the honour.
[13:42] Naz: Well I wouldn't put as much credence in an amateur study as one written by a priest or PHD holder, no
[13:42] herman Bergson: on mathematics or so Daruma...not on thinking
[13:42] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: yep
[13:42] Corronach: what good is an opinion if it is made out of ignorance?
[13:42] Daruma Boa: true herman
[13:42] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: Mishima was of kazoku
[13:42] herman Bergson: True Naz....
[13:42] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: aristocracy
[13:42] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: so he was from samurai class originally
[13:43] herman Bergson: But it doesn’t rule out intelligence and commn sense..
[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: opinion is always individual
[13:43] Naz: But facts are still facts.
[13:43] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: even though after Meiji there were no official classes
[13:43] Daruma Boa: we must define then what facts are
[13:43] herman Bergson: opinions arent interesting Lizzy....argumetns are
[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: true!
[13:44] Naz: I prefer debates, but each to their own
[13:44] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!
[13:44] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...
[13:44] Gemma Allen: this was all very interesting and have to sort it all out
[13:44] Daruma Boa: most "facts" change during our lifetime
[13:44] Daruma Boa: change
[13:44] Bejiita Imako:
[13:44] Gemma Allen: wil reread the blog
[13:44] herman Bergson: Well..I guess I gave you enough to think about for today then :-))
[13:44] Gemma Allen: omg
[13:44] Gemma Allen: OMG!!!
[13:44] herman Bergson: You are right Gemma :-))
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: HEHE
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:44] Gemma Allen: thinks I will go fish
[13:44] herman Bergson: This was really a great class....
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: this was some stuff for sure
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:44] Paolo Rousselot: RL calls, thanks Herman! Great chat folks
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: awesome
[13:45] Naz: Țɧȧț wȧʂ ɠȑɛȧț <(+_+)>
[13:45] herman Bergson: thank you all for your participation.....
[13:45] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:45] Daruma Boa: yes, thank u herman
[13:45] Tessa Zalivstok: could I make a small point Herman?
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: Thanks to you herman!
[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: cu on thursday agin then
[13:45] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: ^^
[13:45] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye   
[13:45] Gemma Allen: for now
[13:45] Bejiita Imako:
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: bye all
[13:45] Gemma Allen: good luck
[13:45] Areyn Laurasia: very lively class indeed :)
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ye
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: s
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: very
[13:45] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman:)
[13:45] herman Bergson: yes indeed Areyn :-)
[13:46] Tessa Zalivstok: I find it surprisingb that you can talk about Japanese philosophy with only a passing reference to Confucius
[13:46] Daruma Boa: so see u soon
[13:46] Tooyaa: bye all .. wish you an interesting week
[13:46] Areyn Laurasia: Thanks Tooyaa, have a nice week too
[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: that was a hot discussion, lol
[13:46] Tessa Zalivstok: Confucius's philosophy of human relationships is the basis of all Japanese and Chinese and Korean and Vietnamese culture
[13:47] Tessa Zalivstok: you simply can't talk about Philosophy in these countries without referring to it
[13:47] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: actually there r many serious differences between the cultures
[13:47] herman Bergson: True Tessa
[13:47] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: between the cultures u speak about
[13:48] Tessa Zalivstok: yeah but this is the real basis of philosophy
[13:48] Tessa Zalivstok: relationships between people
[13:48] Tessa Zalivstok: up and down
[13:48] Tessa Zalivstok: lower to upper upper to lower
[13:48] Tessa Zalivstok: the whole net of obligations
[13:48] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: japanese culture before chinese influence was closer to that of Old Europe
[13:49] Tessa Zalivstok: yeah but that was 1400 years ago
[13:49] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: earlier
[13:49] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: 2500 - 1700
[13:49] herman Bergson: in what sense "closer" to....
[13:49] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: ago
[13:49] Tessa Zalivstok: it's like talking about european philosophy withpout reference to christianity
[13:49] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: in its patterns
[13:50] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: it was much more individualistic
[13:50] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: as far as it was not based solely on rice
[13:50] Tessa Zalivstok: the relationship of the Emperor to the daimyo class and the daimyo class's relationship to the common people
[13:50] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: and it had less influence of China
[13:50] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: it's very late matter
[13:50] Tessa Zalivstok: totally different from european norms
[13:50] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: i speak of pre-emperor time
[13:51] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: wait wait
[13:51] Tessa Zalivstok: speak on but if you talk of Japanese philosophy you casn't ignore Confucius
[13:51] herman Bergson: Whatever time..religion was there to control the peple...
[13:51] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: I speak of epoch b4 the borrowing of Chinese ideas
[13:51] Tessa Zalivstok: if you talk of Japanese religion you can
[13:52] herman Bergson: the same in all cultures
[13:52] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: not at all
[13:52] herman Bergson: Like Confucianism was presented at the COURT in Japan....
[13:52] herman Bergson: not to the common people to begin with
[13:52] Tessa Zalivstok: but we're supposedly talking about philosophy
[13:52] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: Mid East cultures were very collectivist
[13:52] Tessa Zalivstok: Hermen
[13:53] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: here water is very important matter
[13:53] herman Bergson: If we'd talk about philosophy than we would talk about Japan at all...
[13:53] Tessa Zalivstok: up and down relationships are the total basis of Japanese soviety and they are based on the philosophy pf confucius as modified many times
[13:53] herman Bergson: That is theology....
[13:53] Tessa Zalivstok: no
[13:53] Tessa Zalivstok: Shinto is theology
[13:53] herman Bergson: but I am not that dogmatic :-)
[13:53] Tessa Zalivstok: Confucius is philosophy
[13:54] Tessa Zalivstok: he is very specific
[13:54] herman Bergson: yes Confucius might be called philosophy
[13:54] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: theology is just a philosophy of a certain religion
[13:54] Tessa Zalivstok: one disciple asked him about life after death
[13:54] herman Bergson: oh Tresi!!!
[13:54] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: any religion can have its own theology
[13:54] Tessa Zalivstok: he said if we don't understand life how can we understand death
[13:54] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: why not?
[13:54] Tessa Zalivstok: shinto has one
[13:55] herman Bergson: Theology begins with the answers.....philosophy with the questions....they dont like each other at all!
[13:55] Tessa Zalivstok: but confucius only dealt with theology in a very roundabout way
[13:55] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: Confucian ideas was not borrowed properly by the Japanese, they were borrowed as a cargo cult
[13:55] Naz: Jst throwing this Noh theatre out there:
[[13:55] Tessa Zalivstok: he was a secular philosopher
[13:55] Tessa Zalivstok: sorry Tresi but I have to disagree strongly
[13:56] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: Confucian ideas is about society and nothing about theology
[13:56] Naz: ^
[13:56] Tessa Zalivstok: exactly!!
[13:56] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: tessa, how long have u studied the sudj?
[13:56] herman Bergson: true....
[13:56] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: *subj?
[13:56] Tessa Zalivstok: not the theology class
[13:56] Tessa Zalivstok: and this is the philosophy class
[13:56] herman Bergson: don’t use the authority argument in my class plz....:-)
[13:57] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: I speak of Japnese culturological items
[13:57] Tessa Zalivstok: so therefore we should deal with confucius before we deal with shinto
[13:57] herman Bergson: Watashi wa nihon go w  hanashimasu .....
[13:57] herman Bergson: wo
[13:57] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: well but but people's backgrounds differ
[13:57] Tessa Zalivstok: indeed
[13:57] herman Bergson: they do...but intelligence and common sense too :-)
[13:58] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: if u haven't studied something u hardly can say something about it except of some common places
[13:58] Tessa Zalivstok: indeed
[13:58] Tessa Zalivstok: couldn't agree more
[13:58] herman Bergson: true...but that shows easily in a debate and you'll be doen by that quickly
[13:58] Lizzy Pleides: herman tries to introduce us to the theme tresi
[13:59] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: I spoke about u and Confucian ideas in Japan
[13:59] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: what is the main point of Confucianism?
[13:59] herman Bergson: I studied Japanese language for more than 10 years...
[13:59] Tessa Zalivstok: it is social relationships
[13:59] herman Bergson: could read hiragana, katakana and Kanji....
[13:59] herman Bergson: but that was only because I loved to ply GO :-))
[13:59] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: I asked concrete question
[14:00] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: ok, I tell u
[14:00] herman Bergson: the main point of Confucianism?
[14:00] Naz: I <3 but="" font="" good="" haha="" i="" igo="" m="" not="" that="">
[14:00] herman Bergson: To be a nice member of the family :-)
[14:00] Naz: haha
[14:00] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: main point of Confucianism is that anybody can become ruler but he should successfully pass the exams
[14:00] herman Bergson: I also play Shogi, Naz :-)
[14:00] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: it's social lift
[14:01] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: in Japan was no system of exams
[14:01] herman Bergson: no...
[14:01] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: Confucianism is kinda ancient socialism
[14:01] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: kinda fascism
[14:02] herman Bergson: oh dear....
[14:02] herman Bergson: Hitler avant la Lettre....
[14:02] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: while Japan's root if anarcho-aristocratism
[14:02] Tessa Zalivstok: oh Tresi!!
[14:02] Tessa Zalivstok: lol
[14:02] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: they differ as ice and flame
[14:02] herman Bergson: Well..lot of stuff to think about.....that is the goal of my class ^_^
[14:03] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: so it's very funny when some philosophers speak of Japan and China as of some very similar
[14:03] Tessa Zalivstok: because they have the same roots of social organisation
[14:03] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: no
[14:03] herman Bergson: Who said Japan and China are similar.....what a nonsense!
[14:03] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: Tessa, learn please ABCS
[14:04] Lizzy Pleides: no ABC in Japan
[14:04] Tessa Zalivstok: Tresi
[14:04] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: i speak of history and culture
[14:04] herman Bergson: japan isnt even like really dislike Koreans :-))
[14:04] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: lolololol
[14:04] Tessa Zalivstok: let's stay away fro personal; abuse
[14:05] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: Japanese r mix of Ainu and Korean
[14:05] herman Bergson: No such thing in my class plzzzz!!!!
[14:05] Tessa Zalivstok: Japanese despise the Ainu
[14:05] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: many of Japanese bear Ainu Y DNA
[14:05] Tessa Zalivstok: nearly as much as they despise the Koreans
[14:05] Tessa Zalivstok: or the buraakumin
[14:06] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: it means that Jomon people ruled
[14:06] herman Bergson: philosophically completely uninteresting Tresi...
[14:06] Tessa Zalivstok: or even the Okinawans
[14:06] herman Bergson: so no subject in my class
[14:06] Lizzy Pleides: with all respect to your knowledge Tresi, i guess you overcharge us today
[14:06] Naz: The class ended half an hour ago, this is obviously an open discussion
[14:07] herman Bergson: yes it is Naz....:-)
[14:07] Naz: Also, I'm interested as to whom the japanese are if not this proposed mix of haplogroups
[14:07] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: and amazing fact, Ainu and Japanese have Korean mtDNA
[14:07] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: while Korean have no Ainu mtDNA
[14:07] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: ahahahah
[14:07] herman Bergson checks his DNA and finds traces of polar bears
[14:07] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: and very little Y DNA
[14:08] Tessa Zalivstok: so a Korrean man will never marry an Ainu woman
[14:08] herman Bergson: I am definitely not Japanese :))
[14:08] Lizzy Pleides: lol herman
[14:08] Areyn Laurasia: perhaps so, professor, but you bring awareness and a chance to learn more knowledge of different cultures and philosophical ways of thinking around the world.
[14:09] Tessa Zalivstok: thanks Herman
[14:09] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: From a common point of view Japanese culture has practically no similarities with Ainu culture. (Though as it will be shown in special text the roots of Japanese culture are of Ainu origin) Japanese speak Japanese language but not Ainu. Below I try to explain how it could be.
[14:09] Tessa Zalivstok: time for me to go
[14:09] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: wait
[14:09] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: stay for a while
[14:09] herman Bergson: Thank you Areyn...
[14:09] Areyn Laurasia: Thanks for the class
[14:09] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: When in the beginning of Yayoi epoch in Japanese archipelago started to appear first groups of Korean newcomers the archipelago is completely occupied by Ainu and there are almost no free territories and no newcomers are desirable. There are some groups of Ainu, some principalities which wage war between each other and safety of Korean newcomers is quite questionable. 
This because the first newcomers from Korea set themselves in those territories which are close to Korean peninsula: in North-West of Kyushu and in Izumo. 
With the arrival of Korean newcomers social tension and opposition not only between islanders and newcomers but also between various groups of Ainu and newly arrived Koreans and, it is probable somehow to strengthen the position of their clans Korean leaders decided to enter the relations with leaders of the most powerful Ainu clans. 
Just let's image the following situation: Korean chief has a daughter and he made her to marry the chief of most powerful Ainu clan which is Yamatai clan. The 
[14:09] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: "Korean" leader counts that his son-in-law will battle for his clan against other Ainu group and other "Koreans". 

The Ainu leader also has his interests: first, strangers with whom it is going to become related, brought such technologies, possessing which, he can subdue hostile Ainu groups almost without any efforts; besides, the fact of possession the foreign woman also will lift his prestige and prestige of his clan in eyes of another groups of Ainu. 
And thus the most brutal Ainu leader takes as wife the most beautiful and educated «Korean princess». They give birth to a boy who gets the "Korean" education, learns to be at war at the father and inherits to the grandfather – becomes head of the "Korean" clan, but he bears Ainu Y-haplogroup.
And one of such sons of the Ainu chief and "Korean princess" became the ancestor of a clan which later was called tenno. 
In other words these people were Ainu by their blood but under the influnce of Koreans they actively boorowed/accepted continental cultures. 
[14:09] Tresi 卑弥呼 Nonno: 
Thus Japanese ethnicity was formed, so Japanese are just mixture of Ainu and Austronesian and Korean. And Japanese language is just a creol formed on the base of Old Korean.

Anyway it is just the general outline of the story about how Yamatay became Yamato.
[14:09] Naz: Certainly an interesting chat today :)
[14:09] herman Bergson: Just for the record Tresi....
[14:10] herman Bergson: this is after you are free to dump a lot of text....
[14:10] herman Bergson: DONT do it during the discussion after class
[14:11] herman Bergson: At the wall over there are the debating rules of the class....
[14:12] Lizzy Pleides: i have to go, night herman, Tresi, corr
[14:12] Areyn Laurasia: very charged night :)
[14:12] herman Bergson: Well Corronach....
[14:13] herman Bergson: ahh Areym the last surviver :-)
[14:13] herman Bergson: Quite some class today...:-)
[14:13] Areyn Laurasia: couldn't survive the chat scroll..
[14:13] herman Bergson: I forbid text dumping.....
[14:14] Areyn Laurasia: reminds a bit of that hindu philosophy..
[14:14] herman Bergson: do it once and I ban you :-)
[14:14] Areyn Laurasia: was it her first time here?
[14:14] herman Bergson: no offense....
[14:14] herman Bergson: but I pointed at the rules at least two times already :-))
[14:15] Areyn Laurasia: I think she didn't read the local chat...
[14:15] Areyn Laurasia: or didn't understand
[14:15] herman Bergson: But it was a great class...lively debate :-)
[14:15] herman Bergson: well that is why I forbid to produce more that two lines of text....
[14:15] herman Bergson: because...
[14:16] herman Bergson: when you are typing your text all the time you dont read the local chat
[14:16] Areyn Laurasia: exactly
[14:16] herman Bergson: and when you drop your text it is  already a forgotten station
[14:16] herman Bergson: so be short....
[14:16] Areyn Laurasia: it got a bit personal too between the two
[14:16] herman Bergson: type one line....
[14:17] herman Bergson: well..I yelled Authority argument here...:-)
[14:17] herman Bergson: You know...
[14:17] Areyn Laurasia: we need a gavel or something for you to bring your authority back to class :)
[14:17] herman Bergson: I hate people who say shut up..I am the expert here

[14:18] herman Bergson: a baseball bat will do too Areyn :-)

526: Averroës

There is a resemblance between the Western Middle Ages and Islamic philosophy since 632 CE, a year before the death of Muhammad.

There was a lot of science  like mathematics. medicine astronomy, but most of all metaphysics, to which these sciences had to conform,

for all this metaphysics was focused on theological issues. What the Arab philosophers did was what the Scholastic catholic theologians did thereafter:

reconciling general and scientific knowledge with theological ideas and not the other way around. It happened to Galileo Galilei:

In 1616, an Inquisitorial commission unanimously declared heliocentrism to be "foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture."

There is no difference here with the Arabic world and the position of science and philosophy. Like in Europe, where Aristotle taught the basics of scientific thinking and natural science, Plato’s Ideas saved the theologians.

The last great Arabic thinker in this endless debate was Ibn Roshd, better known to us as Averroës (1126 - 1178).

But like Avicenna and a number of other islamic philosophers, Averroës wasn’t primarily a philosopher, but an orthodox muslim.

Like others he was an all-round scholar, judge, astronomer, physician of the calif, believer in the Quran and thinker.

Averroës not only rejected the idea, but plainly denied that the ratio and belief eventually could be in accordance with each other.

The real source of all problems between philosophers and theologians lay in the fact, that they failed to appreciate that ratio and belief played on different levels.

What was true from a religious point of view, was completely unsuited for philosophical considerations.Not the Quran was the problem, but the way of debating.

Thence Averroes divided human understanding into three classes, according to the different types of man.

At the bottom of the ladder you find the simple and unenlightened people for whom belief and the clear voice of authority is enough.

Halfway the ladder you find the dialectic people, who demand probability arguments to become convinced. Something like “Look how complex this little insect is built…..can’t be just coincidence….quite probable it is the design of a Creator.”

Finally, at the top of the ladder, there are the people who demand inferences that show absolute certainty of proof. Only for such people the use of philosophy is meant.

The Quran, the divine revelation, was meant for all three groups, but only those who had reached the highest level of wisdom, were able to set aside the rules of the simple belief when debated about the Truth.

Averroës might be called the last great Islamic thinker. After him the debate fell silent. His “Aristotle” was embraced by the catholic Scholastics like Albertus Magnus and Thomas Aquino.

But the Arab world went down into continuous fighting between all kinds of factions, a continuous battle with the Turks and the Byzantine Empire, a continuous battle against christians.

You could say that since 632 CE after a short period of philosophical creativity between 950 and 1258, the debate in the Arabic world never stopped: the debate on how to make the ratio bend for the ideas of the Quran.

The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^
[13:24] herman Bergson: .
[13:24] Daruma BoaDaruma Boa claps
[13:24] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!
[13:24] Gemma Allen: that is the problem still trying to fit it
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: well they refuse to let ratio win over belief i guess
[13:25] Gemma Allen: yep
[13:25] Daruma Boa: thats the problem. religions battle witch is the best
[13:25] herman Bergson: In Europe 1650 and after the empiricists took over from the theologians and real science became possible
[13:25] Daruma Boa: but i mean there can not be find an answer
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: no
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: only ratio and science can find true proofs
[13:26] Daruma Boa: and a battle is NO answer.-
[13:26] herman Bergson: the problem is an epistemological one Daruma.....
[13:26] Areyn Laurasia: for all that wisdom.. why war?
[13:26] Daruma Boa: well religion has nothing to do with profs
[13:26] Daruma Boa: its about believing
[13:26] Daruma Boa: science is proofing
[13:26] herman Bergson: science is open to criticism....falsification because wecan test the way knowledge was acquired...
[13:27] herman Bergson: but when you base your axioms on "revelation" no criticism is possible
[13:27] herman Bergson: nor development because all becomes 100% dogmatic
[13:27] Areyn Laurasia: yet a lot of scientific discoveries were made by accident
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: no cause people just say god exist and thats it without ever have seen anything of god
[13:27] herman Bergson: While in our world Einstein was able to improve on Newton's theories
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: still they conclude he did everything
[13:28] herman Bergson: I wont do it ...
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: so you cant apply proofing on religion indeed
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: 2 different things
[13:28] herman Bergson: but you cold make a project on the attempts to proof the exitence of god
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:29] herman Bergson: That bejiita was in fact the basic assumption of Averroes....
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hmm ok
[13:29] herman Bergson: logical proof didn’t apply to revelations....
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hmm no they seem incompatible to me sort of
[13:29] herman Bergson: And this is still the case in this world...
[13:30] herman Bergson: So we are stuck with all those individuals who claim this special knowledge by revelation.....and all others how are willing to believe then....
[13:30] herman Bergson: If I only knew why!
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:31] Areyn Laurasia: and those are the majority?
[13:31] Gemma Allen: i think so
[13:31] Gemma Allen: in many places
[13:31] Areyn Laurasia: we're so in trouble
[13:31] herman Bergson: If you look globally Aryn....I think so yes
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: and also what are really these so called revelations, dreams, hallucinations or is there really something
[13:32] herman Bergson: But if you look at the rea power globally....then I think no...then Capital is the new god
[13:32] herman Bergson: and religion
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: compare with seeing ghosts, many have claimed but no one have managed to proove them and i’ve never seen one
[13:32] Daruma Boa: most ppl have no believe anymore. only believing in capitalism. true herman
[13:32] Daruma Boa: believe
[13:32] herman Bergson: that is the problem Bejiita.....
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: When i see a ghost i believe
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: and am sure i really see a ghost and not dream for ex
[13:33] herman Bergson: No Bejiita...wont work....
[13:33] Daruma Boa: bejita thats a big issue.
[13:33] Gemma Allen: welllll
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: guess more complex then that
[13:33] Daruma Boa: we humans are not able to see a lot.
[13:33] Daruma Boa: a lot what science has already proofed
[13:33] herman Bergson: When you tell your neighbor he will look at you with that strange look and say....Sure have seen a ghost ^_^
[13:33] Daruma Boa: so....
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:34] Daruma Boa: e.g. u cant see micro organism
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: you can with a microscope
[13:34] herman Bergson: we can with a microscope Daruma
[13:35] Daruma Boa: but not in your daily life
[13:35] Areyn Laurasia: so we don't see them with our naked eyes but we can invent tools to help us understand more
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: no, but everyone have seen microscopy pics in books at least in school so they know they are there
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: bacteria ect
[13:35] herman Bergson: Thanks heave no....:-)
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: and probably looked at them on microscope themselves
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: i have
[13:36] herman Bergson: just suppose you could see al bacteria and virusses around which we now only see under a microscope....!
[13:36] Daruma Boa: yes i know what u mean
[13:36] herman Bergson: It is not the microcosmos that bothers us....we even can "see" higgs particles...
[13:36] herman Bergson: it is the macrocosmos.....
[13:37] herman Bergson: that kept the Arab philosophers busy too.....
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:37] Daruma Boa: but the more we get to know, the more we have questions.
[13:37] herman Bergson: the attempt to understand why the world is as it is
[13:37] Daruma Boa: dunno which scientist this said
[13:37] herman Bergson: all scientist do say that ^_^
[13:37] Daruma Boa: the deeper u go you see things, which we even can not imagine
[13:37] Daruma Boa: now
[13:37] Areyn Laurasia: the more we learn, the less we realize we know? something like that?
[13:38] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!
[13:38] herman Bergson: Socrates already said "I know that I don't know"
[13:38] Daruma Boa: so i guess in 10 years we laugh about "ghost2;-)
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehehe
[13:38] Areyn Laurasia: I'm sure we have seen ghosts... in movies
[13:39] Gemma Allen: well people hve not laughed in over the centuries so far
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: WHO DO YOU CALL? GHOSTBUSTERS!!!
[13:39] Gemma Allen: they continue to be with us
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: lol
[13:39] herman Bergson: oh yes....and the funny thing is...we call them horror movies.....
[13:39] Daruma Boa: ;-)
[13:39] Areyn Laurasia: so they exist in a way... the way we create them
[13:39] Daruma Boa: they are all among us!
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:39] herman Bergson: who has invented the idea that ghosts are bad by definition?
[13:39] herman Bergson: Like aliens too...99%  are monsters
[13:39] Daruma Boa: everyone has its own ghost to carry in life
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: i d love to have some ghosts around as long they are nice
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: good company
[13:40] herman Bergson: We are silly beings....
[13:40] Bejiita Imako:
[13:40] herman Bergson: when we fall from the stairs we blame it on an evil spirit....
[13:41] herman Bergson: when we just managed to prevent it we give credit to our guardian angel :-)
[13:41] herman Bergson: the brain invents a story for everything
[13:41] Daruma Boa: and when u know how it works, u can use it.
[13:41] Daruma Boa: we humans all need pictures.
[13:42] Daruma Boa: or symbols
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: seems so
[13:42] Daruma Boa: our brain is a tool
[13:42] Daruma Boa: u must know to use it
[13:42] herman Bergson: our brain is to some extend a fairytale machine :-)
[13:42] Daruma Boa: for some
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ah i guess so
[13:42] herman Bergson: and we love to believe the stories
[13:42] Gemma Allen: of course
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: sometimes it goes wrong though
[13:43] Daruma Boa: when we believe we can reach a lot
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: and thats where u get these horrible religion wars ect
[13:43] Daruma Boa: thats the prob of humans. they do not believe in themselves
[13:43] herman Bergson: not yet Daruma.....that is the long way to go in evolution of the brain I think
[13:43] Daruma Boa: yes its work for everyone on its own
[13:44] Daruma Boa: a everyday work
[13:44] herman Bergson: Well...I am done with Islamic philosophy.....
[13:44] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:44] Daruma Boa: they also^^
[13:44] Areyn Laurasia: where do we go next? :)
[13:44] Gemma Allen: what next
[13:44] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!
[13:44] herman Bergson: It made me understand a lot of what is still kicking and alive in that culture...
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: have been really interesting
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: an eye opener for sure
[13:45] herman Bergson: The most important observation might be that they don’t fight as individuals against ...the other or the state.....
[13:45] Daruma Boa: true
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: no
[13:46] herman Bergson: they fight as groups of believers agains others hwo are wrong or disbelievers....
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: its death ot all non believers or deah to those with a different belief then ours
[13:46] herman Bergson: and that has been the case since 632 and has untill today never changed....
[13:46] herman Bergson: you see it happen in Syria.....
[13:46] Areyn Laurasia: maybe the Mahdi will come along
[13:47] herman Bergson: you have  the Allawites ..the government.....and a plethora of all kinds of religious groups fighting this government and even eachother....
[13:47] herman Bergson: They are destryoing that country for more than two years now already......!
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: aaaw yes
[13:48] herman Bergson: Just because of that JIHAD....
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: awful development
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: so meaningless
[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes utterly meaningless....Bejiita
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hmm
[13:49] herman Bergson: and one big stalemate for no one knows who is fighting who anymore and to what purpose...
[13:49] Areyn Laurasia: why isn't the western world stepping in? why have the gap so that all these other religious groups utilize it?
[13:49] herman Bergson: just addicted to the fighting and becoming a martyr!
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: oil maybee
[13:49] herman Bergson: That Aryen, is the big problem.....
[13:50] herman Bergson: the US did it in Iraq....and failed.....
[13:50] Gemma Allen: stupid move
[13:50] herman Bergson: because th eUS sees the individual against the doctator....
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: just made it much worse
[13:50] herman Bergson: but the Iraqis only see the sunnites against the shiites as the real war
[13:51] herman Bergson: there are religious factions fighting each other....that is no furtile soil for democracy as we know it....
[13:52] herman Bergson: Because all kinds of Western ideas are not conform the Quran!
[13:52] herman Bergson: Equal rights?.....For women???? The very thought of it ....!
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: if they could they wuld probably blow the entire planet up to cosmic dust cause then EVERYONE including non or dofferent believers will see the REAL god
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: when all is dead
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: scary thought
[13:53] herman Bergson: Don’t think so Bejiita.....
[13:53] .: Beertje :.: I have to go...thank you Herman it was a real nice class again
[13:53] Gemma Allen: no way
[13:53] Gemma Allen: ok have to go too
[13:53] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!
[13:53] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:53] Gemma Allen: herman
[13:53] .: Beertje :.: have a goodnight
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cause they believe they come to god including the others they kill when they blow themselves up
[13:53] Areyn Laurasia: good night
[13:53] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye   
[13:53] Gemma Allen: for now
[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes...let's do some fun stuff....
[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed!
[13:53] herman Bergson: :-))
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all
[13:54] Areyn Laurasia: not all muslims are like that, Bejiita :)
[13:54] Daruma Boa: will leave also
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: no but the most extreme are
[13:54] herman Bergson: Indeed Areyn, the majority isn’t…..!
[13:54] Daruma Boa: have a nice time^^^
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: true
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: thats one good thing at least
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: cu on tuesday all
[13:54] Areyn Laurasia: better see more of the world while it's still around :)
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hehe yes
[13:55] herman Bergson: But you only need one idiot to blow up a market place
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: i guess so
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: and thats 1 to many
[13:55] herman Bergson: unfortunately.....

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: cu tuesday