Thursday, June 10, 2021

932: Ancient astronomy.....

 Where numerous patterns are common knowledge for us, they were first-hand discoveries five or six thousand years ago.

Take for instance the Indian scholar Daksiputra Panini, known for his text Aṣṭādhyāyī, a sutra-style treatise on Sanskrit grammar, 3,959 verses or rules on linguistics, syntax and semantics

   

I just wonder how it must have been. He hears somebody say something and he knows that this person is referring to the beauty of some flowers.

  

Panini must have wondered, what is the relation between these uttered sounds and the reality I observe?

   

While the Greeks just looked at reality and wondered about its composition, Panini must have concluded:


if I understand the structure of these uttered sounds, the language, I might understand the structure of reality. He wondered about how language relates to reality.

   

Something similar might have been the case with mathematics. It must have begun with simple calculations of the number of harvested products or the measurement of a piece of land.

   

Then you discover a pattern in your calculations and you discover that there is a principle beneath this pattern and you find a2 + b2 = c2.

  

with this rule you even can predict what c2 will be if you know a and b. And then begins to deploy a whole world of mathematics.

  

And you are confronted with the question: what is the relation between my mathematics and reality? Where do you look first for the answer?

   

You look up in the sky. There must be the worlds of the gods. Those stars and their movements..... my mathematics applies to them! With my calculations I can even predict their next position.

    

And so begins Greek astronomy. Pythagoras (ca. 540 - 495 BC) would have suggested that all heavenly bodies move in perfect circles around a huge fire

  

and their relative distances could be expressed as the relation between 1,2,3 and 4 as a cosmic harmony.

    

The problem with this mathematical principle of the circle was that some heavenly bodies, planets as we know now, didn't move in a straight line.

   

Most of the time they moved for instance from West to East but from time to time from East to West. Something we now know as the retrograde movement of planets.

  

Besides that, some of these heavenly bodies now and then differed in brightness. As we now know this is due to the difference in distance from the earth due to their elliptical trajectory.

   

For centuries the Greeks pondered and puzzled about this and came up with all kinds of solutions.              

    

Anyway, using the Greek astronomical calculation led to a picture of the trajectories, that looks like the one behind me.

   

Maybe the most famous astronomer in those days has been Claudius Ptolemaeus from Alexandria.He wrote the book "Almagest", 

   

which gave an overview of ancient astronomy including principles, theses, deductions and observations.

   

He also created tables of positions and rules which were necessary to predict the positions of heavenly bodies.

  

One of the most important applications of his model was according to Ptolemaeus in astrology. 

  

In its Tetrabiblos ('four books') he elaborates on the principles of horoscopes and the influence of the celestial bodies on earthly events. 

   

The Tetrabiblos became the most influential work in Western astrology for more than 1500 years. And it gave astronomy centuries-long legitimacy.

   

Thank you for your attention again......



The Discussion


[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:15] herman Bergson: I admit...it has been a warm and sunny day here...not the best weather for philosophy :-)

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so he is the father of the horoscope then?

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): fun fact, when i read these they often sort of match

[13:16] herman Bergson: If you leave out Indian astrology, I guess so Bejiita.....

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sometimes not at all but vbery often there is something there

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a bit fun

[13:17] herman Bergson: But what is really means is that since Pythagoras the Greek saw mathematics probably also as something mystical

[13:17] CB Axel: If you read the horoscope for a different sign, though, can't you make that match  up, too?

[13:17] herman Bergson: Let's not discuss the sense and nonsense of astrology here, please :-)

[13:18] CB Axel: :)

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for ex if there is something going on at work ect i ofteh have gotten matches for that day with "productive event filled day" and things like that

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): more then one time

[13:18] theo Velde is online.

[13:19] herman Bergson: No comment,, Bejiita ^_^

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats in one of these, all papers for ex use different horoscopes

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still a bit fun concidence

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in any case the discovery of all these connections like with math, and here we also can see how it is truly the language of the universe

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as everything around us can be calculated

[13:21] herman Bergson: The main question here is ...how come that mathematics can be applied to real world things

[13:21] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well thats what is so amazong

[13:21] herman Bergson: Mathematics is a pure brain product

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes but still

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it describes all these relation and it never lies (unless someone make a bad formula)¨

[13:22] herman Bergson: It doesn't seem to be deduced from empirical experiences

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we can calculate and predict stuff of any kind

[13:22] herman Bergson: yes, Bejiita, and that is a very special feature of mathematics....

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and everything can be represented in math, color sound ect wich is what makes computers possible as they describe entire virtual worlds using only that

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this place, my game projects ect, its all done with 100% math

[13:23] herman Bergson: indeed.... and we have a strong inclination to quantify everything

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and 2 values

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 1 and 0

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): amazing that its possible

[13:24] herman Bergson: to me it is still an unanswered question

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): another facinating thing is they used purley math to predict the higgs boson and its properties 40 years before the LHC was built, Then comes LHC, ZAAAAM! and sure it was there witl ALL the parameters as predicted

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats quite cool!

[13:27] herman Bergson: Since nonof you comes forward with an answer, I make it your homework to find the answer :-)

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i have to dig deeper WHY this is the case

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but that can bequite fun

[13:28] herman Bergson: One google search can be "Why does mathematics work?"

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:29] CB Axel: Did we discover math or did we make it up to explain things.

[13:29] CB Axel: ?

[[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good suggestion

[[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): is math man made or just laying out here waiting to be discovered

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): head spins when going into these things

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): into the deep

[13:30] herman Bergson: I think that THAT is a hot discussion among mathematicians

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:30] herman Bergson: Is reality in itself mathematical?

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well indeed

[13:31] herman Bergson: Is mathematics  empirically or brainily based?

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i mean it seems so since everything there is can be described 100% using it

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the relations are there

[13:31] herman Bergson: No Bejiita that isn't true.....

[13:31] CB Axel: Is there a god or is there just a master mathematical equation? :)

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): from pi to fractals

[13:32] herman Bergson: what can not be described 100% is described by using statistics

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there are lies, damn lies and statistics!

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): looool

[13:32] herman Bergson: you can't quantify human emotions for instance

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a classic

[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well THAT u can not indeed

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but also we cant read others minds and thus directly measure them

[13:34] herman Bergson: You can statistically predict the possible occurence of an emotion with a probability of 80%

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u can say using a programming analogy that emotions are only accessible in the local scope

[13:34] herman Bergson: but you can't predict the emotion of person A

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): = to yourself

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): only u can feel them

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and indeed i cant predict mine either

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its all depending on whats happening right now

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and indeed u can not predict the future

[13:36] herman Bergson: Well, I'd say...have some fun with the query on "Why does mathematics work".....plenty of hits in Google....lots to study there :-)

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now lets dwell into some randomly chaotic dice throwing pluppgames

[13:37] herman Bergson: Time to put our brains to rest, I'd say....

[13:37] herman Bergson: unless you still have an urgent question or remark :-))

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however not truly random (computers cant be truly chaotic but good enough for dice games)

[13:37] herman Bergson: Ok.....Class dismissed .....

[13:38] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class

[13:38] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman and class.


Tuesday, June 8, 2021

931: The Principles Parade....


 [13:08] herman Bergson: Before I begin I want to express a special welcome to my assistant professor AristotleVon Doobie :-)

[13:09] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-) the first time I was here, Ari was already here

[13:09] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie) nods with thanks

[13:09] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay

[13:09] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): hello bergfrau

[13:09] herman Bergson: Maybe some of you may know him but he was there at the first lecture in 2007 and his masterpiece was creating a PDF file of all lectures of my first project for all participants

[13:10] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wow

[13:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 

[13:10] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie) smiles

[13:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:10] herman Bergson: Nice to see you in class today Aristotle :-)

[13:10] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :)

[13:10] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): good to be here

[13:10] herman Bergson: And keep in mind....a PDF file in 2007 was something! :-)

[13:11] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): 

[13:11] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): a task of love

[13:11] herman Bergson: ok, this being said, let me begin :-)




Those who came after Thales of Miletus (603 BC), remained loyal to the idea of ​​a primordial principle, but then you see what is so typical of Homo Sapiens.

   

Everyone has their own opinion and therefore there was a continuous criticism of earlier primordial principles. For example, Anaximander, 

  

probably an apprentice of Thales, claimed, that the world was not made up of water, but from an infinite, eternal and indefinite matter, "the Apeiron."

     

The earth floated and remained in place through equal distance to other objects in the universe.

     

It remains almost incomprehensible for me, how people in ancient Greece, given their circumstances, could come to such ideas. 

   

He also presented a form of evolution in which the earth was first in liquid condition, then became dryer through the sun, after which fish would have arisen from the water from which all other animals and people would have emerged. 

  

The most remarkable of this last idea is that evolution indeed followed that route. All life has emerged from water (Thales), from the sea indeed.

   

Anaximander's student Anaximenes (585 - 526 BC), on the other hand, stated that the basic matter was air. 

  

He believed that the earth didn't float, but rested on air. The idea that the world is not composed of one but from multiple elements, was also an option in those days. 

  

Empedocles (494 - ... Bc.) stated that the entire cosmos was made up of water, fire, earth and air. This idea has continued to exist as a theory of elements, as used by alchemists in the Middle Ages. 


The most radical vision, however, came from Democritus (ca. 460 - 370 BC.), which he formulated in the fifth century BC that all matter is made up of small, indivisible particles that are moving in a vacuum: atoms. 

  

Later Atomists such as Epicurus (342-270 BC) and Roman Lucretius (approx. 99-55 BC) vigorously tried to prove the atomistic theory. 

   

Lucretius in his poem "De Rerum Natura" (About The Things Of Nature) showed that the universe could be explained entirely by atomism. 

   

All objects and phenomena consist of nothing but compositions of atoms that can produce new objects through their constant and eternal movement. 

  

Even human free will could be explained because some atoms do not move in determined ways but randomly. 

   

It remains fascinating to imagine how those people could come up with such a representation of reality, which is now commonplace. 

  

Antique atomism remained extremely speculative and predicting concrete new phenomena, a basic current feature of the combination of principles and patterns, was beyond their scope in those days. 

   

How else would it have been if they had had their own particle accelerator and nuclear power plants?

  

Thank you for your attention....


The discussion


[13:18] herman Bergson: By the way...take Empedocles and Democritus and you see the conflict of a principle that works and one that didn't work. We'll get to that later

[13:19] herman Bergson: Feel free if you have any remarks or questions.....:-)

[13:20] herman Bergson: Well....an easy class today :-)

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but still good

[13:20] CB Axel: I can see how they would have come up with air, fire, water, and earth, but how did Democritus ever imagine atoms?

[13:20] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): it is interesting how the chain of technological discovery present many theories before their time

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): only thing is..I don't know waht to ask now:)

[13:21] herman Bergson: I agree Beerttje...

[13:21] herman Bergson: there is just a lot to wonder about like CB says...

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:22] herman Bergson: For instance that the greeks already envisioned an earth in space....

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed the atom was a very early idea long before electron microscopes and particle accelerators

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but as I said last lecture..why took it so long that people worked with those thoughts

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how did they get the idea

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have read it but don't remember

[13:22] herman Bergson: The big question is....why did the human brain was inclined to reduce things....

[13:23] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes, and the earth is made from those same things in space

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however atom means unsplitable / undividable but nuclear fission and particle colliders proved otherwise

[13:23] herman Bergson: They reduced the multitude of reality to single formless particles...

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however one atom is the smallest possible amount of an element

[13:24] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): the attempt to make complex things simple maybe

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle.....

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so in that sense its undividable because beyond that its no longer the same element

[13:24] herman Bergson: seems to be a tendency in the mind...

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes break things down

[13:24] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and there was no Carl Sagan then :)

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to grasp them better

[13:25] herman Bergson: Like Descartes suggested how to solve a problem....split it up in its composing little problems first

[13:25] herman Bergson: it is a kind of universal methodology, it seems

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aah

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well its how i attack complex stuff too say in my game engines and similar complex challenges i do

[13:26] herman Bergson: The analyzingthe complex into its composing parts

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to learn them i take small steps for each single part and learn that before i try do more complex stuff

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the easiest way to solve a problem

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): very handy

[13:26] herman Bergson: it's the basis of procedural programming

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also how i organize my code with clear functions and divisions to ease both coding and later debugging

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause in game engines u REALLY can make a mess if not careful

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its HUUUGE systems

[13:27] herman Bergson: Maybe the wiring of the brain is structured in this way

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): break it down, take small steps, don't swallow it at all in one bite

[13:28] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): we all seem to have our strong suit, to communicate what is clear to us can overwhelm some

[13:29] herman Bergson: The whole quintessence of the current project is focused on this observation.....the method of reducing patterns to principles

[13:30] herman Bergson: And as you see....mankind started early with this approach of reality

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:31] herman Bergson: Maybe the mind discovered that this methodology is THE best way to survive in a multitude of experiences

[13:31] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): if our brains could only rewire themselves as fast as rate of innovation

[13:31] herman Bergson: So  this was a step in evolution

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sounds logical

[13:32] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): back then they had longer periods of adjustment to new truths

[13:32] herman Bergson: From the Greek till today we kept believing in the idea of small particles as the composing part of matter

[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed they had, Aristotle

[13:33] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): without microscopes, that is quite a assumption

[13:33] herman Bergson: In previous lectures I described the timeline......some changed emerged after thousands of years...

[13:33] herman Bergson: Since the greek it became hundreds of years

[13:33] herman Bergson: today,,,,it is decades or les

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): facsinating

[13:34] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): indeed

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): has our brain developed faster?

[13:34] herman Bergson: I think it is still the same

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): technology helps us advance

[13:34] CB Axel: I don't think mine has, Beertje. :)

[13:34] herman Bergson: since 300 BC

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles at CB:)

[13:35] herman Bergson: The means to aquire knowledge have increased faster and faster

[13:35] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): with the advent of digital distractions, I think it may have regressed

[13:35] herman Bergson: since 3000 BC I meant

[13:35] CB Axel: :)

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): organizations like CERN have since usung their machines rapidly discovered more and more of the secret of matter

[13:35] herman Bergson: In what way Aristotle?

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however building these machines and know how to run then takes reeal skill and developmenmt

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u just don't build one and smash on

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and say HEY THERS THE HISSSS BOSON

[13:36] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): critical thinking has been replace by rote

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): too until today before we managed doing that but the ideas themselves are way older

[13:37] CB Axel: I think more people used to be able to do more maths  in their heads than now. Calculators have made that unnecessary.

[13:37] herman Bergson: Well...that's  thing indeed :-)

[13:37] CB Axel: So it's a skill we have lost.

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and today we google everything

[13:37] CB Axel nods

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): instead of learning ourselves, and babies first word today is IPHOOOONE!

[13:37] herman Bergson: .

[13:37] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes, google for temporary information

[13:38] CB Axel: As a child I remember refusing to memorize things I could easily look up. :)

[13:38] CB Axel: I hated rote learning.

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): are these devices dumbing us down again

[13:38] herman Bergson: Smart child :-)

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:38] herman Bergson: I still only remember where to find the details

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (thinks about people looking at iphone and stumbling in fountains)

[13:38] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): it takes energy to think critically

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:39] CB Axel: I don't think they're dumbing us down. I think they're freeing our brains for more thinking.

[13:39] herman Bergson: Whey should I memorize all birth years of philosophers?

[13:39] herman Bergson: A general idea of the period the lived in is enough

[13:40] CB Axel: The only thing that's good for, Herman, is being able to keep track of what ideas came first.

[13:40] herman Bergson: But learning to think critical , is an issue

[13:40] herman Bergson: to learn logic too

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not everyone is allowed to think critical

[13:40] herman Bergson: Indeed CB

[[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): but to not use something is for it to atrophy

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and to CHECK FACT! not just blindly believing rumours and then proceed spreading them all over the internet because SOMEONE said so on FB

[13:41] herman Bergson: At least you should know that Plato wasn't a member of the Wiener Kreis :-)

[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes, bejiita

[13:41] CB Axel: LOL, Herman.

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill note that!

[13:42] herman Bergson: Regarding to that, Bejiita, we are in serious trouble

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed, worst thing is when things like these lead to hatestorms and violence

[13:42] herman Bergson: A whole country is in the grip of a big lie today......amazing...

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): based on untrue information

[13:42] herman Bergson: and terrifying too

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MrT was expert spreading these but many others are great at it too and it has to stop

[13:43] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I think humans are the only animals who act irrationally

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): esp now staring into computer screens believing EVERYTHING they say

[13:44] herman Bergson: Other animals aren't rational at all....they just are with their instincts

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): is on internet = true syndrome

[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie) laughs, sheep to slauglter

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes, instinctual reactions

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:45] herman Bergson: They already believe it when they have seen it on TV Bejiita....

[13:45] herman Bergson: There are complete TV stations corrupting the minds of people

[13:45] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): or the government says it is so

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Videodrome

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or something similar

[13:46] CB Axel: Maybe today Descarte would have said, "I Google, therefore I am."

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in those early days some clever man thought about atoms...but...did everybody believe those ideas?

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed thats a classic

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): brainwash people through the TV

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone is online.

[13:46] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): of course, it is extremely prudent to vet everything we see or hear

[13:46] herman Bergson: Good question, Beertje

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): most probably thought he was nuts

[13:46] CB Axel: Someone believed it enough to remember it.

[13:47] CB Axel: Or to write it down

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Some took the ideas to them thats for sure

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): otherwise we would not had proceeded

[13:47] herman Bergson: I think ideas of people like Anaximander or Democritus were only discussed in the small circle of well to do Greeks

[13:47] herman Bergson: Those who could afford education

[13:47] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I doubt that all believed any new theory, and some strongly condemn things taht are not favorabe to them

[13:47] herman Bergson: so...the top 1%

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:48] CB Axel: Those who could afford to sit around all day thinking

[13:48] herman Bergson: I agree Aristotle....I guess it wasn't much different from what we see now.....maybe only in scale

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then we had the church opposing all forms of science cause it threatened its power

[13:48] CB Axel: If you have slaves doing all your mundane chores you have time to sit and think.

[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes, really, CB..that is how it was

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that Galileo got to feel full on

[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): human nature has not evolved that much I think, only our ability to suppress it

[13:49] herman Bergson: Indeed Aristotle...

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so now we just all have to turn into vulcans

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:50] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL, yes

[13:50] herman Bergson: Live long and prosper, Bejiita ^_^

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): EXACTLY

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just like Tuvok

[13:50] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): the sex every 7 years may be a problem

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well true

[13:50] herman Bergson: Typical human response Aristotle.....

[13:50] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): lol

[13:51] herman Bergson: You still have a lot to learn :-)))

[13:51] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): sacrifice

[13:51] CB Axel: The urge to have sex only every 7 years would free our minds up even more than have calculators. :)

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:51] herman Bergson: /

[13:51] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I agree, but it is like junk food, is life better not eating it?

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if we don't go crazy from it

[13:51] Ladyy Haven (ladyy.haven) is online.

[13:52] herman Bergson: Difficult question Aristotle.....I am inclined to anser: NO

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and sex involves closeness that we also need a lot (esp after this corona shit is over)

[13:53] herman Bergson: Well then it is time to end our discussion of today and start working on it :-)

[13:53] herman Bergson: So...thank you all again for your participation....

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[13:53] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): thanks, Herman!

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice as usual

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: interesting again! thank you Herman and class

[13:54] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): very stimulating as always

[13:54] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman and class. :)

Thursday, June 3, 2021

930: The First Principles....

 When we focus on the period from 3200 BC to 1000 BC we see how the Babylonians were well capable of recognizing pattern.

  

They even must have known the mathematical principle behind the calculation of Pythagorean triples,

   

but there isn't a single clay tablet that elaborates on this principle. Apparently, the Babylonians were too pragmatic.

   

If you look at the period of 600 to 300 BC we get a different picture. If you would have any doubt about the evolution of the brain of homo sapiens,

  

you certainly may assume that a brain of 600 BC didn't differ from a current brain. I always have looked at literary works 

  

as proof of the fact that the psychology of man hasn't changed since Antiquity or before that time. The themes of classic tragedies and poetry are the same as those of Shakespeare.

  

We still sing "I love you......I miss you......" like so many have done through the ages. Has the brain reached its evolutionary endpoint?

   

That being the case, let's have a look at how man became interested in principles. I've got two names for you: Thales of Miletus (603 BC) and Dakṣiputra Pāṇini (350 BC), an Indian scholar.

   

Their ideas show that mankind was ready for the big questions, the questions of what is behind everything. They were done with all kinds of religious and mythological explanations.

  

Especially Thales, he assumed that the basic matter of which the world was made of is water, one single substance. It is not such an absurd idea.

   

Water can assume three appearances, solid in ice, liquid in water, and gas-like in steam. Besides, everything needs water to live, man, animals and plants.

  

With his principle, he could explain earthquakes. He assumed that the earth floated on water and earthquakes were caused by the waves of that water. 

 

The single matter material world idea was born and it never has left us since.

  

Contrary to Thales Panini was not interested in the world of nature but in the world of language. He wondered about the principles that were behind language. Language mirrored reality, the world.

  

The central question of Panini was how a finite set of grammatical rules made an infinite number of linguistic expressions possible, that is, describe an infinite number of real-world situations.

   

Panini's thesis was that language was based on the principle of recursivity. This means: you describe a state of affairs with a sentence and then use a sentence within the sentence for further description.

  

Example: the man is a criminal  ---> the man, who beats the dog, is a criminal --> the man, who beats the dog, that is barking, is a criminal ---> ad infinitum.

  

Or, if you look at the Escher behind me, the hand that draws the hand, draws the hand, that draws the hand, that draws the hand.......

   

Panini had many more brilliant ideas that reached Europe at the end of the 19th century and had a great influence on the development of linguistics.

   

Ferdinand de Saussure (1857 – 1913) was a Swiss linguist, semiotician and philosopher. Frits Staal (1930–2012), a Berkley professor of philosophy and Asian Studies, discussed the impact of Indian ideas on language in Europe. 

   

After outlining the various aspects of the contact, Staal notes that the idea of formal rules in language, proposed by Ferdinand de Saussure in 1894 

  

and developed by Noam Chomsky in 1957, has origins in the European exposure to the formal rules of Pāṇinian grammar.

   

What I want to conclude is, that we are standing on the shoulders of these pioneers and discoverers of principles behind patterns.

   

Thank you for your attention....

  

  

The Discussion

  

[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:19] herman Bergson: by the way...Saussure and Staal were experts in Sanskrit...the language Panini wrote a grammar for...in some 3900 rules

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): do we use all those rules today?

[13:21] herman Bergson: Panini also wrote about semiotics and the analysis of words....a theory still studied today

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:21] herman Bergson: Not the rules odf Sanskrit of course...but n general we do the same....use the rules of grammar

[13:22] herman Bergson: Chomsky believed that there could exist a universal grammatica that applied to all languages

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): today we even try learn computers grammatics with AI but thats another story I guess

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): speech recognition

[13:23] herman Bergson: Computer languages are like natural languages with their own grammer and syntax

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa programming languages

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that i know a few

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Lua is newest addition

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and these indeed also follow certain rules

[13:24] herman Bergson: Lear tne syntax and grammar of PASCAL and you can program :-))

[13:24] herman Bergson: Here we use LSL

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting is i see just a bit of Pascal in Lua

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i use it for Roblox

[13:25] herman Bergson: What strikes me is the idea of Thales.....

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the fact that a function ends with end and not } seem familiar from there but was forever since i used pascal

[13:25] herman Bergson: the idea that everything is composed of one single kind of matter....

[13:25] herman Bergson: as I said....this idea has never left us....

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): keeps rollong on in new forms

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the main idea is same

[13:26] herman Bergson: A principle that has guided our thinking about matter through the ages

[13:26] CB Axel: The single kind of matter just keeps getting smaller.

[13:26] herman Bergson: Suppose he never had thought of it??? :-)

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:27] CB Axel: Someone else would have eventually.

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there need to be some system

[13:27] CB Axel: Someone else might have thought about it before he did but wasn't listened to .

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes CB....what this single type of particle is doesn't matter for the principle that everything is built of this kind of particle

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but would ithad loked the same?

[13:28] herman Bergson: Leibniz had his monads for instance

[13:28] herman Bergson: Democritus his atoms

[13:29] herman Bergson: But in those days it was just a speculation

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it was a revolution in thinking

[13:29] herman Bergson: Is it a tendency of the brain to simplify as much ass possible, that gives us such ideas?

[13:30] herman Bergson: It certainly was Beertje....

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:30] herman Bergson: No god, no mythology....just water...period :-)

[13:30] herman Bergson: You almost would say...that was the beginning of secularization ^_^

[13:31] herman Bergson: a small seed tho :-))

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why took these ideas so long to develop?

[13:32] herman Bergson: that is relative Beertje....if you take into account that homo sapiens was a 35000 years old already....

[13:33] theo Velde is online.

[13:33] herman Bergson: from the moment Thales cam to his idea till now is 2700 years

[13:33] herman Bergson: did de development of knowledge took long or did we master a lot in a short time

[13:34] herman Bergson: To your right is that picture of a calender page Beertje...

[13:35] herman Bergson: on the wall....

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes I can see it

[13:35] herman Bergson: that shows what we are on the timeline of history

[13:35] herman Bergson: just a blip in the night ^_^

[13:36] herman Bergson: There I must think of George Carlin.....

[13:36] oola Neruda: considering living conditions back then and how people were spread out... all trying, daily, to survive... lack of rapid transportation... I'd say it took a long time...

[13:36] oola Neruda: so many variants

[13:36] herman Bergson: He is surprised about the arrogance of man.....we gonna safe the earth.....we?

[13:36] herman Bergson: The earth has saved itself for 4 billion years so far :-))

[13:37] CB Axel: We're destroying the earth not saving it.

[13:37] herman Bergson: we are not destroying the earth CB....we are only destroying ourselves....

[13:37] CB Axel: Good point.

[13:37] CB Axel: The earth will survive us.

[13:37] oola Neruda: there are reasons for tribes... thus local language

[13:38] herman Bergson: and after that the earth will continue its rounds around the sun for another billlion years till the  sun dies

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well destroying the rainforest and its entire ecosystem for profit i call destroying the earth

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): AND ourselves

[13:38] oola Neruda: agree

[13:39] herman Bergson: I agree...we are not destroying the planet,,,no way....we are destroying parts of it....

[13:39] herman Bergson: but who cares..?

[13:39] herman Bergson: The dinosaurs were destroyed too

[13:39] CB Axel: We are destroying life as we know it.

[13:39] oola Neruda: destroying ourselves in the long run

[13:39] herman Bergson: the earth doesn't care

[13:39] herman Bergson: it continues its existence

[13:40] herman Bergson: we are a flee in its fur

[13:40] herman Bergson: or what do you call that insect

[13:40] CB Axel: Once man destroys itself some other species will flourish.

[13:40] oola Neruda: flea

[13:40] herman Bergson: thank you oola ^_^

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes CB.....

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are polluting mars now too

[13:41] CB Axel: And it probably will be an insect. :)

[13:41] herman Bergson: Eventually this might become the planet of the anpes :-))

[13:41] herman Bergson: apes

[13:42] herman Bergson: yeah...silly idea Beertje :-))

[13:42] herman Bergson: The moon is already a junkyard :-))

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no not a silly idea..it's reality

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we zijn rommelkonten

[13:42] herman Bergson: lol

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:43] CB Axel: lol

[13:43] herman Bergson: I wonder if google translate can handle that word Beertje :-)

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it does as the reactions of CB and Bejiita

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))

[13:44] herman Bergson: no..it doesnt

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you tried?

[13:44] herman Bergson: yes

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahah

[13:44] CB Axel: I think it gets the general idea.

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i can probably program it to do that

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or no i cant, 1 i don't understand the word and 2 i don't have access to google translates source code

[13:45] herman Bergson: I wouldn't know an english equivalent....

[13:45] herman Bergson: sloppy ass....:-)

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): me either, that's why I said it in Dutch

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahah well it sounded something like that

[13:46] CB Axel: I think I'd just say that we're pigs. :)

[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: or messy ass

[13:46] CB Axel: Or slobs

[13:46] herman Bergson: Anyway....this was again a nice piece of linguistics...you learnt a lot today, I see

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well we can create  a mess

[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: /oink

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): rommelkonten is a bit friendlier

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lets not mess up the linguistix now

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): either in spoken or programming language

[13:47] Marlena Rickettsi (marlenalilly): It took a lot of knowledge though to make any mess on Mars.  It was not easy.

[13:47] herman Bergson: I guess you should consult Panini on this and his analysis of compounds ....really interesting

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lets keep that part as tidy as possible for now

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least need to chech the dude up further

[13:47] herman Bergson: That is true Marlena....so...some appreciation for the effort might be in place here ^_^

[13:48] Marlena Rickettsi (marlenalilly): :)

[13:48] CB Axel: I was thinking of you Dutchies yesterday.

[13:48] Marlena Rickettsi (marlenalilly): I loved learning about Panini.

[13:48] herman Bergson: Oh...Bejiita...careful...

[13:48] herman Bergson: DON"T google on Panini....what you get is hilarious

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what did you tink about them CB?

[13:48] herman Bergson: google on Panini indian scholar

[13:49] CB Axel: I saw a video of a person going across a bridge over the Kill van Kull in New York/New Jersey.

[13:49] oola Neruda: I was thinking of the parallels between living on mars.... and the stories about Captain Nemo....

[13:49] CB Axel: I know that kill means river. :)

[13:49] herman Bergson: You actually learned about Panini Marlena?!

[13:49] Marlena Rickettsi (marlenalilly): Well I had never heard of him before today.

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): isnt Panni sonething u eat?

[13:49] herman Bergson: Did you study semiotics or Sanskrit?

[13:50] herman Bergson: ohhhhh....^_^

[13:50] Marlena Rickettsi (marlenalilly): It's better to know they exist, lol.

[13:50] Marlena Rickettsi (marlenalilly): I had known of the panini to eat already.

[13:50] CB Axel: Yeah, Bejiita. A panini is a toasted sandwich made in a press.

[13:50] herman Bergson: and a lot more CB :-)))

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes! tghose i have eaten and theyre yummy!

[13:51] herman Bergson: I guess we are far enough off topic to conclude this lecture for today ^_^

[13:51] CB Axel: :)

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:51] herman Bergson: It is fun however,,,,but yet

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess

[13:51] herman Bergson: Thank you all agin

[13:51] CB Axel: We have gone from linguistics to sandwiches. :)

[13:52] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....