Tuesday, October 30, 2012

425: The Concluding lecture

The fact that standards are displaced by market forces, has significant impact on the economy. 

It makes the deployment of market mechanisms and free market theory  in many areas of the social life  doubtful. 

What should we think for example of financial incentives to encourage teachers to perform better in education, nurses in health care and other workplaces, 

or to volunteers in social life, in family life and other places where is important that people are intrinsically or morally motivated? 

"The" displacement effect " is perhaps one of the most important anomalies within the economy according to economists, because it seems to be at odds the most fundamental economic "law", 

namely that increasing financial stimulation increases supply . If the displacement effect exists, financial incentives even decreases the supply, for instance the willingness to help others, in stead that they increase the supply.

What economists slowly begin to understand is that there is a difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation.

Oh sure, they know what it means: altruism is an inner (intrinsic) motivation to help your neighbor. The extrinsic motivation would be, when your neighbor asks you for help and offers you money.

Look, the later, THAT is economics, goods and services changing hand. Altruism is even a threat to the growth in economy.

For Ayn Rand altruism was almost a sign of mental disorder, a sign of weakness. In her opinion and in the opinion of many economists our social behavior is dominated by our preferences.

These preferences are very basic. They are material preferences. We are selfish, self-interested and that is why we act as we act.

All these other aspects of behavior which we call ethics, nice, really, but they have no meaning in an economic theory.

Like I said last Tuesday: Economic theory focuses on explaining how competitive markets work: how they curb the SELFISH INTERESTS of market participants 

by balancing them one against another in a way that results in the production of goods and services according to consumers' preferences and an efficient allocation of resources to their production. 

Economists believe that the commercialization of an activity does not change its character: money can never corrupt and non-market forces can never supplant non-commercial standards. 

People who want to buy or sell a commodity find it to their advantage, while people who find that the  value of such a  commodity can not be expressed in money just don't need to participate in such trade. What is wrong with that?

Who cares? If you want to donate blood voluntarily, because you see it as a social obligation to help you sick neighbor, please do so. Very noble.

Two weeks later you run into you fully recovered neighbor, who tells you with lots of delight, that he just got US$ 200 for selling blood to the Blood Bank.

Then you run into that second neighbor who also survived thanks to your donated blood. He doesn't look in too good shape 

and he tells you that he fortunately could make US$ 200 by selling blood to the Blood Bank. Means food for a week or so again.

And then there is that bill on your doormat: US $ 200. How stupid can a man be…………. ? Pretty stupid the economist says.

So you tell me….. who are we as human beings and by what standards do you like to organize our society? At least one observation: believe in the free market didn't work.

If you want to educate yourself, all inspiration for this project came from the book of Michael J. Sandel, "What Money can't by: The Moral Limits of Markets" (2012)

424: The Aftermath of Neoliberalism - The End

The standard economic theory assumes that goods and activities do not change character by  commercializing them or offering them for sale.

Think of human organs, the willingness to accept dangerous situations  like for instance stuntmen do, buying your entrance to a university, 

using your body for advertisement, collecting money for charity, selling and buying CO2 rights and so on.

Market transactions increase the economic efficiency, they say, without the merchandise in question is being changed.

That is why economists generally are sympathetic to the use of financial incentives to encourage desirable behavior.

The reasoning is that market transactions are to the advantage of the two parties involved, buyer and seller, without harming other parties.

At least, IF you assume that the market and the human attitudes which are cultivated by this process do not undermine the immaterial value of the exchanged merchandise. and exactly this assumption is questionable.

A simple example: a theater company organizes performances of a play of Shakespeare and distributes free tickets, so that everybody can attend a performance.

Some smart guys get hold of as much tickets as possible and because these performances are so popular, they have no problem selling the free tickets for big money.

Here an immaterial social value gets degraded and corrupted by making the tickets to merchandise.

Fred Hirsch (1931-January 1978) was Professor of International Studies at the University of Warwick. He was a senior adviser to the International Monetary Fund from 1966 to 1972 where he worked on international monetary problems.

In his book "Social Limits to Growth" (1976) he is one of the first who warns us, that standard economic theory does not take into account this "commercialization effect".

By that he means "the effect on the character of a product or service when it only or mainly  is provided through commercial way,

things as informal exchanges, mutual obligation, altruism and love (...) Generally and almost always implicitly it is believed that the process of commercialization has no influence on the product. "

And the effect on the character of the product was, that it changes the attitude of people and displace the immaterial values represented by or related to this good. when the market mechanisms are applied to the distribution of such a good,

Hirsch died shortly after publication of his book, which was publish just before Thatcher became Prime minister in the UK (1979 - 1990)  and Reagan(1981 - 1989) was elected president of the US.

They opened the floodgates for the free market and helped to ignore these observations. It is now, that we become aware of it.

Economic theory focuses on explaining how competitive markets work: how they curb the SELFISH INTERESTS of market participants 

by balancing them one against another in a way that results in the production of goods and services according to consumers' preferences and an efficient allocation of resources to their production. 

To make the argument simple, intelligible and convincing required a highly simplified model of the economy, 

that focused on the satisfaction of man's bodily needs and left out every obstacle, imperfection and complexity that could actually or potentially interfere with the market economy's perfect functioning.

In other words, economists created their own right theory by leaving out all other characteristics of human nature except selfish interest. 

It seemed to have worked till now. So finally work for philosophers again …..

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you... ^_^
[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thank you Herman.
[13:24] Kime Babenco: Thanks Herman
[13:24] Umae Ying: which other characteristics did they leave out
[13:24] Bejiita Imako:
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman
[13:24] herman Bergson: actually all Umae...all our immaterial values...
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: everything but the money
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yourself is worth nothing only your wallet for those economists
[13:25] herman Bergson: like altruism, citizenship, social care, love and so on
[13:25] herman Bergson: the material mechanisms of economy were only driven by self-interest according to economists
[13:25] Mick Nerido: PBS is an example that commercial interests don't like...
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: if u have little money no one like u if u have money everyone does
[13:25] Umae Ying: they use those in advertising to attach those feelings to the products
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: thats no nice development
[13:26] herman Bergson: what is PBS Mick?
[13:26] Umae Ying: yes Mick
[13:26] Mick Nerido: Public brodcasting in USA
[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): So how to distribute these soft items without corrupting them? Like social care, love, altruism?
[13:27] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example Debbie.....
[13:27] herman Bergson: In the Netherlands teachers get paid a fixed salary....
[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: everywhere i guess
[13:27] Mick Nerido: PBS is mor alturistic because the sponsors don't have compete control
[13:27] herman Bergson: a year or so ago someone seriously came up with the idea to give successful teachers in bonus..a financial reward!
[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes. but in some places parents contribute extra
[13:28] herman Bergson: No that is a different issue....
[13:28] anneke13 Bailey is online.
[13:28] Kime Babenco: I need to relog... hold on
[13:28] herman Bergson: What upset a lot of people is that you become a teacher because of an intrinsic motivation
[13:28] Kime Babenco is offline.
[13:28] herman Bergson: ok Kime
[13:29] Kime Babenco is online.
[13:30] Umae Ying: i know teachers who do not have that motivation at all
[13:30] herman Bergson: Oh yes Umae...the world is full of bad people...
[13:30] herman Bergson: But I dont think that is the point....
[13:31] herman Bergson: welcome back Kime...
[13:31] Kime Babenco: Thanks
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: wb kime
[13:31] herman Bergson: Let me answer Debbie and Umae this way....
[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: wb Kime
[13:31] Kime Babenco: Thanks
[13:31] herman Bergson: What economists totally have ignored is the existence of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation
[13:32] herman Bergson: extrinsic motivation is that you are wiling to do something if for instance someone pays you for it..
[13:32] herman Bergson: extrinsic
[13:33] herman Bergson: intrinsic motivation is your willingness to act because it comes straight from your heart...
[13:33] herman Bergson: Because it gives meaning to your life
[13:33] herman Bergson: oops...
[13:33] herman Bergson: did Debbie crash?
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I didn't do anything now...
[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: as far as we are having a free will herman, we discussed that, ... i believe in intrinsic will too
[13:34] herman Bergson: to help someone because you feel that you have to is caused by intrinsic motivation...
[13:34] Kime Babenco: Everyone today?
[13:34] herman Bergson: social care, altruism, love....name it
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: economists only think there is extrinsic motivation
[13:35] Mick Nerido: Music art theater etc...
[13:35] herman Bergson: yes Mick..indeed
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): without Intrinsic the world is not a very nice place to be
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....
[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed Beertje....
[13:36] herman Bergson: there wouldnt be idealists..
[13:36] herman Bergson: only well paid zealots
[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: we would be kinda robots
[13:36] herman Bergson: It would mean that you can hire Green Peace for an action against slaughtering dolphins
[13:36] Kime Babenco: What do you mean with that ?
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: and buy friends
[13:37] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita...
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: and that mean there is no human value anymore, everyone is just after the others money
[13:37] herman Bergson: yes...
[13:37] herman Bergson: so it is obvious that money can not buy everything...
[13:37] herman Bergson: or to say it in other words
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: u cant set a price on a life
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: but economists think that
[13:38] herman Bergson: money can not buy that what we need most
[13:38] Kime Babenco: But it can buy a lot ! Even justice mostly
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and thats also how the world mostly look
[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Kime....that is true
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: poor people die unnoticed while the rich ones are protected by armed men ect
[13:38] herman Bergson: It doent buy justice but injustice...
[13:38] Wonny (wonda.masala) is online.
[13:39] herman Bergson: It corrupts justice
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: awful
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: thats not how it should be
[13:39] Kime Babenco: My grandparents told be one get harder punished for getting a chicken from a governators garden, than for killing a poor person
[13:40] herman Bergson: In some countries this is the case indeed Kime
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: just like i said above, poor people have no value, thats really nasty
[13:40] Umae Ying: the guy who robs a gas station gets a bigger sentence than nixon leaving office
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: very sad development
[13:41] herman Bergson: Is it a development Bejiita....
[13:41] herman Bergson: To simplify the problem....
[13:41] herman Bergson: The world is divided in rich and poor people
[13:41] herman Bergson: The rich have all power, the poor have no power
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:41] herman Bergson: but is this true...?
[13:42] Umae Ying: yes and no
[13:42] herman Bergson: smiles at Umae...
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: in many places it is
[13:42] herman Bergson: indeed Umae
[13:42] Umae Ying: if the poor would unite and vote together they could make a difference
[13:42] Umae Ying: but
[13:42] Kime Babenco: And what you will do to change that ? IF you can at all... because money knoows money and power knows power
[13:42] Umae Ying: they do not receive an education that enables them to sort some of those things our nor figure out how to organize
[13:43] Umae Ying: and they do not own the media like the rich do
[13:43] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.
[13:43] Kime Babenco: Take a look to Russia, where Putin is on...
[13:43] herman Bergson: No...but yet..the rich are a minority...
[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: then we belong to the rich part umae, don't we?
[13:43] Kime Babenco: Take a look at Venezela on the contrary maybe
[13:43] Kime Babenco: Venezuela*
[13:43] Umae Ying: rich is relative sometimes
[13:43] herman Bergson: Or Lybia, Egypt, Russian revolution..
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: even worse, look at syria, the protests failed and now the regime slaughters everyone
[13:44] herman Bergson: French revolution...
[13:44] Umae Ying: if you are alturistic…then you can take sides if you wish
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: their entire population
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: awful
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: i thought the people would have some chance against that regime but seems not
[13:44] Kime Babenco: Chavez did a lot for the poor people in Venezuela, which is appreciatable, but ruined the others
[13:44] Umae Ying: we are supposed to be able to vote...unlike them
[13:45] Kime Babenco: That kind doesn't work either
[13:45] Umae Ying: but corporations and big money now have full access ... FULL ACCESS to the propaganda ...in a way unprecedented
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: but our cote is nothing, the corporations have more power than the people
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: vote*
[13:46] Mick Nerido: Families are disfunctional, so is larger organizations...
[13:46] Umae Ying: we have believe in our vote... and fight the disenfranchisement of the "photo id's" etc
[13:46] herman Bergson: At least it may be clear that it is not a simple division between rich and poor from a historical perspective
[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: i agree
[13:46] herman Bergson: It is not a law of nature that the rich always will keep their power
[13:47] herman Bergson: law
[13:47] herman Bergson: History has shown the opposite
[13:47] Kime Babenco: We are not divided into classes like in India . where from one class someone almost not can get up
[13:47] herman Bergson: And at this moment I think the rich within capitalism are scared...
[13:48] herman Bergson: they are exposed and their greed has become public...
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): someone who is scared can do terrible things
[13:48] Kime Babenco: Great
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: like in Syria
[13:48] Umae Ying: yes
[13:49] Kime Babenco: Yes, as well
[13:49] herman Bergson: yes Beertje....they will think of tricks...to keep what they have...
[13:49] Mick Nerido: Power corrupts
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:49] herman Bergson: but they can not stop the ongoing debate
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:49] herman Bergson: the bear is loose...
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:49] Qwark Allen is online.
[13:49] herman Bergson: capitalism is NOT the real solution...
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the real solution then?
[13:50] herman Bergson: as I showed in my lectures..the market even destroys what we think is valuable
[13:50] Kime Babenco: How much dictators find and easy old day , in peace when they leaved their country after making years of disaster ?
[13:50] Umae Ying whispers: the bear is paying their way into the senate and house...and on other levels too... they are just buying the laws (lawmakers) that protect them
[13:51] Umae Ying: campaign contributions super pacs and lobbyists
[13:51] herman Bergson: True Umae....
[13:51] herman Bergson: if the rich want Obama to stay president....he is reelected..basta
[13:51] Umae Ying: the rich want ronney
[13:52] herman Bergson: Really?
[13:52] Umae Ying: and his "free trade" etc
[13:52] herman Bergson: hmm that makes things interesting...
[13:52] herman Bergson: this would mean that when Obama wins the rich do not rule the world for 100%
[13:53] Umae Ying: i wouldn't go that far
[13:53] herman Bergson: which would confirm that we value more things than only money
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: that would be good for sure
[13:53] Kime Babenco: I heared the richest person from Europe wantes to move to another country..
[13:53] Kime Babenco: Only for payinglasss taxes
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: where there are no taxes
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: i dont get it, the more money u have the less u want to pay
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: its like scrooge Mc duck
[13:54] Umae Ying: romney has his money in the cayman islands and switzerland
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: and worse
[13:54] Umae Ying: no taxes on that part of his income
[13:54] herman Bergson: Yes isnt it remarkable Bejiita...!
[13:54] herman Bergson: Amazes me too
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: yes i don't get it
[13:54] Mick Nerido: true Obama is not as bad as Romney for the middle class
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: i mean what do u need that money for if u don't use it for anything
[13:54] herman Bergson: The higher incomes complain about taxes..never the lower ones :-)
[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) is online.
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: guess its just brawling to the poor ones that they can go f""k themselves i guess
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: thats how they see them
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: really sad that is
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: we have all same value
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: money cant change that
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: like the rich ones think
[13:56] Kime Babenco: If you would earn 100 000 000 US$ a year, and you are not ready to pay 20 % taxes on it... There is a problem... I earn far less, but pay a higher %
[13:56] Mick Nerido: Insurance companies don't agree we all have same value.
[13:56] Gramps Mistwalker is offline.
[13:56] herman Bergson: well...
[13:57] herman Bergson: I am thinking about how to continue my lectures
[13:57] Anske Beattie is offline.
[13:57] Kime Babenco: ;-)
[13:57] herman Bergson: it can go two way....
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:57] herman Bergson: one is the question...why is a human so wicked
[13:58] herman Bergson: or two...how can we stimulate nt to be a selfish person
[13:58] herman Bergson: on the one hand I am thinking of Mary Midgley's book "Wickedness"
[13:59] herman Bergson: and on the other hand I am thinking of Richard D. Pecht's book "The art not to be a selfish person"
[13:59] herman Bergson: art
[14:00] herman Bergson: so..
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think both are interesting lectures
[14:00] herman Bergson: thinking about it...
[14:00] Bejiita Imako: yes
[14:00] herman Bergson: yes Beertje ..that is my problem too ^_^
[14:00] Kime Babenco: I guess so
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so teach them one by one...
[14:00] Mick Nerido: two sides of the same coin
[14:00] herman Bergson: Yes MIck..
[14:01] herman Bergson: Eventually I will Beertje...
[14:01] herman Bergson: is just a matter..which one comes first :-)
[14:01] Kime Babenco: Sure,
[14:01] herman Bergson: I am studying on that :-))
[14:01] Bejiita Imako:
[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): use a coin?
[14:01] Mick Nerido: flip a coin?
[14:01] herman Bergson: lol
[14:01] herman Bergson: maybe indeed
[14:01] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[14:01] Umae Ying: which one is the better at defining what is wicked
[14:02] herman Bergson: dont know yet, Umae :-)
[14:02] herman Bergson: Working on it...
[14:02] Bejiita Imako: oki gotta move on
[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): at least you have a coin..
[14:02] Bejiita Imako:
[14:02] Umae Ying: it would be good to understand what wicked is before you try not to be that
[14:02] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all
[14:02] Roto Diesel is online.
[14:02] herman Bergson: Thursday I want to conclude this series on the Aftermath of neoliberalism...
[14:02] jaynine Scarborough is online.
[14:03] Bejiita Imako: ah
[14:03] herman Bergson: Ohh poor Debbie!
[14:03] Mick Nerido: Iwill miss thursays class ":-(
[14:03] Kime Babenco: Maybe I can not come on Thursday and next week...
[14:03] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh dear ;(
[14:03] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again....
[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[14:04] Debbie Dee (framdor): I missed the whole thing ;)
[14:04] herman Bergson: Next week I take a vacation Kime...so you wont miss much :-)
[14:04] Bejiita Imako: aaaw
[14:04] Kime Babenco: If you can send it to me , would be nice
[14:04] Debbie Dee (framdor): Herman - ill be missing the next 2 weeks - I am off on holiday ;)
[14:04] Bejiita Imako: the blog Debbie?
[14:04] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh - you to. Cool.
[14:05] herman Bergson: There always is th eblog...
[14:05] Debbie Dee (framdor): The blog it will be. Thanks for being organized Prof ;)
[14:05] Bejiita Imako:
[14:05] Bejiita Imako: always useful as me too is rl busy sometime
[14:05] Kime Babenco: OK,
[14:05] Bejiita Imako: cu thursday
[14:06] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it was very interesting..thank you...have a goodnight
[14:06] Kime Babenco: Bye for now everyone
[14:06] Darks Adria is online.
[14:06] Debbie Dee (framdor): Bye Kime.
[14:06] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye:)
[14:06] Debbie Dee (framdor): By Herman
[14:06] herman Bergson: Bye everyone
[14:06] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

Sunday, October 14, 2012

423: slow assassination of moral values

Last night I was watching the movie "Basic Instinct" with Michael Douglas and Sharon Stone and observed the following scene.

In some meeting the psychologist describes the personality of the icepick murderer. The suspect, Catherine Tramell (Sharon Stone), Berkeley graduate in psychology and literature, wrote a book, 

describing the exact details of how the murder with the icepick took place. She also inherited 105 million dollars from her parents , who died in a mysterious accident…..

When leaving the meeting and entering the elevator there is the following conversation between the participants of the meeting (policemen of course):

Mr. A: "We call her in for questioning."
Mr. B: "She has got enough money to burn this whole place down."

Mr. C:"Won't do any good. She just walks in with some super star  lawyer, who got us all canned for wasting the taxpayer's money."

[OK….just for  those who do know or don't know the move. Eventually she does get interrogated. And there it is where every man wants to watch the movie only frame by frame:-)]

[13:19]  Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:19]  Qwark Allen: lol
[13:19]  Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩**✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩**
[13:19]  Mick Nerido: lol
[13:19]  Bejiita Imako:
[13:19]  herman Bergson: grins
[13:19]  herman Bergson: I knew it....lol

That, I thought, is exactly how the top 1% percent, the super wealthy, live their lives. The truth has become a commodity for them.

What is new in economics is the believe in financial incentives. Of course, the bonuses of millions of dollars are a nice example of how we can influence individual market behavior of people.

The health lobby, which I now and then are inclined to call the health terrorists, is the kind of group that also comes with such ideas.

Some time ago the health fighters came with the suggestion to add an extra tax on food products that make people fat. You know, greasy hamburgers, French fries, potato chips, candy of all kinds, etc.

This, the lobby believes, would stimulate people to buy healthier food in the supermarket. Does money really change behavior in that way?

It is not as simple as that. Take for instance that Israeli nursery. The employees were pretty annoyed because a lot of parents came always in too late to pick up their children.

Let them pay a fine!, was the brilliant idea. That would stop parents from coming late. The effect was astonishing: the number of late parents almost double.

After twelve weeks they canceled the penalty system.  People had  regarded the fine just as an extra payment. But things got even worse. The number of parents that came too late to pick up their children stayed on the higher level after dropping the fine.

Here you see how a financial incentive corrupted a moral obligation to be in time and the social value of responsibility for each other.

In 1993 there was a referendum in a small Swiss village for or against the storage of nuclear waste. The inhabitants didn't like the idea but just 51% said OK.

Then the economists came up with an idea: give these people a financial incentive to agree to the nuclear waste storage near their village.

The result was, that the acceptance of the waste project dropped to 25% ! Economists believe that offering money  makes something uncomfortable more bearable and acceptable.

However, the dedication to the public interest of the villagers did them regard the money offered as a disrespectful form of bribery.

An other experiment: two groups of children are asked to collect money for charity. One group listens to a motivational story, the other group is informed that they'll be paid for their efforts. This payment does not come from the charity money.

The result of the experiment was that the group that got paid for their work collected less money than the volunteers.

These examples illustrate how the introduction of money in a non-commercial situation can change people's attitudes and can supplant their moral and social responsibility.

The Discussion

[13:28]  herman Bergson: Thank you... ^_^
[13:28]  Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::
[13:28]  Qwark Allen: money its a 2 faces coin
[13:28]  Kime Babenco: Thanks
[13:28]  herman Bergson: The floor is yours ..
[13:28]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Interesting. The outcomes were opposite to expectation of the economic thinkers.
[13:28]  herman Bergson: Yes Qwark...
[13:29]  herman Bergson: but economists and politicians seem to see only one face :-)
[13:29]  Qwark Allen: ahhaha yes
[13:29]  Qwark Allen: and us all the other one
[13:29]  Mick Nerido: If you really want to do something you will do it for free...
[13:29]  herman Bergson: yes :-))
[13:29]  herman Bergson: Yes Mick...
[13:30]  herman Bergson: and financial incentives corrupt that attitude
[13:30]  Kime Babenco: It can be like a sociological result... People react on things they hear, ... esplecilally when they more information about it
[13:30]  Bejiita Imako: seems so indeed
[13:30]  herman Bergson: which means that it is not only money that rules this world
[13:30]  Mick Nerido: when I paint a picture I don't think of how much i will be paid for it.
[13:31]  herman Bergson: ahh good example Mick....
[13:31]  herman Bergson: Let's take this a step further...
[13:31]  Qwark Allen: was thinking, that our pay check is another exemple of financial incentive
[13:31]  Debbie Dee (framdor): With money we can buy the time to do things that appear to be important
[13:31]  herman Bergson: You paint the painting driven by your artistic feelings and insight
[13:31]  Kime Babenco: If people say there are not enough engineers, maybe more kids start to study engineering... which results in too much engineers
[13:32]  herman Bergson: hold on plz...
[13:32]  herman Bergson: let's stick to Mick's remark
[13:32]  herman Bergson: He makes a painting as a driven artist...
[13:33]  herman Bergson: then it sells for 5000 whatever currency...
[13:33]  herman Bergson: Now the next painting....
[13:34]  Mick Nerido: putting a monitary value on it some how cheapens it... and i now paint for pay, not good.
[13:34]  herman Bergson: Mick might think..when I use the same style, technique etc..it might sell too for 5000
[13:34]  herman Bergson: ahh...Mick...that is the other side of the coin indeed
[13:35]  herman Bergson: for the second painting you also can just follow your artistic drive...
[13:35]  herman Bergson: It even doesn't sell for 50....
[13:35]  Debbie Dee (framdor): You still need groceries though.
[13:36]  Qwark Allen: that is the point
[13:36]  Mick Nerido: artists often "sell out" when the money temps them
[13:36]  Qwark Allen: if the currency is a drachma, he will starve, even its 5000
[13:36]  herman Bergson: in a philosophical sense...
[13:36]  herman Bergson: what you observe here
[13:36]  Qwark Allen: and have no strength to make the second one
[13:36]  Debbie Dee (framdor): It seems you can be poor and hungry and motivated by the love of life; or rich and amoral ;)
[13:37]  herman Bergson: is that the selling/buying principle here corrupts essential human valus
[13:37]  Mick Nerido: That's why a long struggle to be successful in art is often better then immediate success
[13:37]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the first painting is easy...I paint with joy and don't thinkof any money..the second painting is more difficult..
[13:38]  herman Bergson: Yes Mick...for what values most is this struggle....
[13:38]  herman Bergson: the search for meaning in what you do
[13:38]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): imagine I get the same money for it..is it as good as the first one?
[13:38]  Mick Nerido: It's a matter of motivation, from inside or outside
[13:39]  herman Bergson: If you get the same money Beertje..it is as good as the first one at least...
[13:39]  Lizzy Pleides: every painting should be a first painting, ... good motivation, not thinking of the money
[13:39]  Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:39]  Bejiita Imako: exactly
[13:39]  herman Bergson: The buyer may have the idea that it is a bargain for he thinks the second is way more better :-)
[13:39]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Now what if mick prints 100 limited edition copies of his first masterpiece?
[13:39]  Mick Nerido: then when I die it is suddenly worth more!
[13:39]  Qwark Allen: that only happens, if you don`t depend on the art to survive
[13:40]  Debbie Dee (framdor): And some coffee mugs with micks glory on them?
[13:40]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): after I have died my children will be rich..lol
[13:40]  herman Bergson: Should I kill you to make you rich now, Mick????^_^
[13:40]  Bejiita Imako: hahaha
[13:40]  Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:40]  Qwark Allen: lol
[13:40]  Bejiita Imako: how brutal!
[13:40]  Bejiita Imako: lol
[13:40]  herman Bergson: That is art..:-))
[13:40]  Debbie Dee (framdor): next week hermen - he just got back.
[13:40]  oola Neruda: if they are not on an original plate or screen... like an etched plate or a litho stone or silk screen then they are not worth zip even if it has a so called certificate of authenticity
[13:40]  Mick Nerido: it's not a good idea Herman...
[13:41]  herman Bergson: I agree Mick..too happy to see you gain
[13:41]  Qwark Allen: brilliant idea hermann
[13:41]  Kime Babenco: Art is relative... Some like a painting, some like a concert of Iron Maiden (not me, it was an example)
[13:41]  Debbie Dee (framdor): But they sell oola. Look at the stores around you.
[13:41]  Mick Nerido: But if you collected my work It would make you richer
[13:41]  oola Neruda: i know ...and people are being ripped off
[13:41]  Qwark Allen: get some of his paints, kill him, then i talk to a friend in a TV station
[13:41]  oola Neruda: they even sign them and sell them at art fairs
[13:41]  herman Bergson: gold on...plz
[13:42]  Qwark Allen: then the paints will value much more
[13:42]  herman Bergson: hold on
[13:42]  oola Neruda: and people don't understand they are worthless
[13:42]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Qwark
[13:42]  oola Neruda: no quark
[13:42]  herman Bergson: Let's get back to outr main issue here....
[13:42]  Bejiita Imako: heheh
[13:42]  Debbie Dee (framdor): If they are nice paintings they are worth hanging on the wall.
[13:42]  Debbie Dee (framdor): oops
[13:42]  oola Neruda: it has to do with whether it was printed from the plate the artist made themselves
[13:42]  oola Neruda: not a photo of a painting etc
[13:42]  Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:43]  Debbie Dee (framdor): maybe. But colour reproductions these days are superb
[13:43]  Kime Babenco: I can give 200 R$ to go to a show... but not for a painting... even thatl,asts longer... I guess it's the brain concept of it
[13:43]  Bejiita Imako: yes hard to distinguish
[13:43]  Bejiita Imako: thats why u have all these safety features in money
[13:43]  Lizzy Pleides: a painting is not only a canvas and some color, its more
[13:43]  herman Bergson: hello???
[13:43]  Debbie Dee (framdor): what safety features are in money?
[13:44]  Bejiita Imako: plus modern copiers even sense thats a bill and refuse to print and often even redirects u to an anti counterfeit page on the web
[13:44]  oola Neruda: that is the key ... reproduction
[13:44]  herman Bergson: What are we discussing here..??lol
[13:44]  Qwark Allen: loads of safety stuff in a note
[13:44]  oola Neruda: sorry
[13:44]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Children ....
[13:44]  Bejiita Imako: a copier cant put the metal thread and hologram in the bills for ex
[13:44]  herman Bergson: ORDER!!!!! lol
[13:44]  Debbie Dee (framdor): hey - who started talking counterfeiting?
[13:44]  Qwark Allen: first one, is that they are not made of paper, they are made of cotton
[13:44]  Lizzy Pleides: shhhhhh, .... let herman speak!
[13:44]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I was on about copies of a painting
[13:45]  herman Bergson: laughs
[13:45]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins
[13:45]  Mick Nerido: all things equal money puts value on something that may not have real value after all
[13:45]  herman Bergson: ok..are we done??? lol
[13:45]  Kime Babenco: The idea is ... you have to like it... If you don't like paintings, like me.. (sorry-atleast most, not all) it will not change me or have any impact on me...
[13:45]  Lizzy Pleides: out of control everything here, lol
[13:45]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): [13:32] herman Bergson: let's stick to Mick's remark
[13:45]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you started...
[13:45]  Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•   Helloooooo!  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜  
[13:45]  Qwark Allen: Hey! rodney
[13:45]  Lizzy Pleides: Hi Rod
[13:45]  Bejiita Imako: hi Rod
[13:46]  Debbie Dee (framdor): im quiet.... shhhh. listen to prof H
[13:46]  Rodney Handrick: hi folks
[13:46]  herman Bergson: OH YES....We need Rodney to keep things under control!!!
[13:46]  herman Bergson: Welcome Rodney...
[13:46]  Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:46]  Qwark Allen: lol
[13:46]  Bejiita Imako: hi rod
[13:46]  herman Bergson: Perfect timing
[13:46]  Qwark Allen: don`t kill him, he is a friend
[13:46]  Bejiita Imako: hahahah
[13:46]  Rodney Handrick: hi everyone
[13:46]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): does he paint?
[13:46]  Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:46]  Qwark Allen: lol
[13:46]  herman Bergson: grins
[13:46]  Bejiita Imako: or just print copies
[13:46]  Bejiita Imako: lol
[13:46]  Lizzy Pleides: are you a painter Rod?
[13:46]  herman Bergson: Come on, people…
[13:46]  herman Bergson: this is e serious class… ^_^
[13:47]  Bejiita Imako: anyway a good paining can really make a room stand out
[13:47]  Qwark Allen: we had a good giggle for sure .-)
[13:47]  Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩**✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩**
[13:47]  Bejiita Imako:
[13:47]  Mick Nerido: We come to this class because we want to not for pay
[13:47]  Bejiita Imako: painting
[13:47]  herman Bergson: Well
[13:48]  Kime Babenco: There is a saying here about a painter that made a nice paint, He said it has no value now.. and put his name under it and said now it's about 10 000 US$
[13:48]  herman Bergson: I SEE A RED DOOR AND I WANT TO PAINT IT BLACK !!!!!
[13:48]  Debbie Dee (framdor): hey mick!
[13:48]  herman Bergson: CLASS DISMISSED ...LOL
[13:49]  Bejiita Imako: hehee
[13:49]  Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩**✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩**
[13:49]  herman Bergson: Any painters in the room?
[13:49]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): laughs
[13:49]  Qwark Allen: ehehehhe
[13:49]  Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:49]  Kime Babenco: A song from Rolling Stones
[13:49]  Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::
[13:49]  Qwark Allen: ¸¸.´ ¯¨.¸¸`**   **´ ¸¸.¨¯` H E R MA N ´ ¯¨.¸¸`**   **´ ¸¸.¨¯`
[13:49]  Bejiita Imako: i think i might have a bucket somewhere
[13:49]  Debbie Dee (framdor): thats a great ending - herman - but it won't silence us
[13:49]  herman Bergson: lol..
[13:49]  Lizzy Pleides: i am painting my bedroom next week
[13:49]  Bejiita Imako:
[13:50]  herman Bergson: never had such a funny discussion :-)
[13:50]  Bejiita Imako: hahaa as it should be
[13:50]  Bejiita Imako:
[13:50]  Mick Nerido: I once painted my room black, parents not amused!
[13:50]  oola Neruda: printmaker who can teach painting and most other art subjects
[13:50]  Bejiita Imako: hahaha
[13:50]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:50]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks for the article on Venezuela Herman. What do you think of Chavz' social democracy?
[13:50]  Qwark Allen: lets paint that door
[13:50]  herman Bergson: YEAH!!!!
[13:50]  Qwark Allen: bejita can do nice graphiti on it also
[13:50]  Bejiita Imako:
[13:50]  Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:51]  Qwark Allen: .-)))
[13:51]  Bejiita Imako: always wanted to learn do these cool airbrush paintings
[13:51]  Bejiita Imako: really awesome stuff
[13:51]  Kime Babenco: Tell me Debbie...Venezuela is our my neighbour
[13:51]  herman Bergson: Yeah it is Bejiita
[13:51]  herman Bergson: \
[13:51]  Qwark Allen: how much worth that paint behind us? for real
[13:51]  Bejiita Imako: a work buddy have a welding screen painted like that
[13:52]  Qwark Allen: from the chappel
[13:52]  Bejiita Imako: i want one too
[13:52]  Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:52]  Qwark Allen: its worthless
[13:52]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Kime, it seems that there is great support for this man amongst the poor, after good results over the last three terms of office
[13:52]  Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman, great class, are you sure it's not an art class?
[13:52]  herman Bergson: yes...
[13:52]  Qwark Allen: no matter what money you have, you cannot buy it
[13:52]  herman Bergson: Well I am in doubt now Mick...
[13:52]  Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:52]  Kime Babenco: think Chavez is very well to the poor people of Venezuela (majority)
[13:53]  Kime Babenco: People from Venezuela you meet in SL are not that poor
[13:53]  herman Bergson: did you get my URL Debbie?
[13:53]  Debbie Dee (framdor): It seems that all of the indicators of life quality are up. and education is strong.
[13:53]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I did. Thanks herman.
[13:53]  herman Bergson: The poor do not have computers Kime....that hasn't changed...
[13:54]  Qwark Allen: yes
[13:54]  Qwark Allen: see how many people from africa are at SL
[13:54]  herman Bergson: But yet education level in Venezuela has changed !
[13:54]  Qwark Allen: a good example
[13:54]  Debbie Dee (framdor): It seems that the first world media are pro the oligarchs,
[13:54]  Mick Nerido: gotta go... bye everyone!
[13:54]  Bejiita Imako: cu Mick
[13:54]  herman Bergson: none I guess Qwark..
[13:54]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Im here qwark. Its me.
[13:54]  Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•  Bye !  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜  
[13:54]  Qwark Allen: where you live?
[13:54]  herman Bergson: or a few fromSouth Africa...
[13:54]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Im from africa
[13:55]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I live in south africa
[13:55]  Qwark Allen: ehehheeh
[13:55]  Rodney Handrick: I visited this art museum a couple of days ago...http://www.newportartmuseum.org/index.html
[13:55]  Kime Babenco: South Africa if I remember well
[13:55]  Qwark Allen: even so you are a rarity
[13:55]  Lizzy Pleides: i must go too, Good night everybody!
[13:55]  Qwark Allen: thats not a good example
[13:55]  Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:55]  Qwark Allen: lol
[13:55]  Bejiita Imako: but even places like Nigeria i think is advancing
[13:55]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I know :(
[13:55]  herman Bergson: yes Debbie...and allow me to ask...are you white?
[13:55]  Qwark Allen: above south farica, how many you know?
[13:55]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I am. From british and dutch descent.
[13:56]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I know none.
[13:56]  herman Bergson: But same story about India Qwark,,,
[13:56]  Qwark Allen: in all africa, maybe thats the only place where you can log here
[13:56]  herman Bergson: Only the rich are in SL
[13:56]  herman Bergson: and educated
[13:56]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Thats why I often see things from a poorer perspective
[13:56]  Kime Babenco: ;-)
[13:56]  Qwark Allen: india has lots class media ppl
[13:56]  Kime Babenco: Lol , I guess not
[13:56]  Qwark Allen: i know a lot of indians at internet
[13:57]  oola Neruda: there are many who are not rich or educated in south africa
[13:57]  Kime Babenco: In every country are rich people
[13:57]  herman Bergson: Only from Europe and the US you also get in the trash :-)))
[13:57]  Bejiita Imako: well India is the new it nation as i get it
[13:57]  Kime Babenco: Even in the poorest country of the world
[13:57]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes. We are better off than most african countries, but thing are still not fair.
[13:57]  Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•  Bye !  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜  
[13:57]  Qwark Allen: for now
[13:57]  Qwark Allen: ty hermann
[13:57]  Rodney Handrick: bye
[13:57]  Qwark Allen: seee you tuesday
[13:57]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I know a man from Africa too here in sl
[13:57]  Debbie Dee (framdor): By qwerky qwark ;)
[13:57]  Kime Babenco: In every country are good and bad people as well...
[13:57]  herman Bergson: Bye Qwark
[13:58]  Bejiita Imako:
[13:58]  Rodney Handrick: this is true
[13:58]  Bejiita Imako: party time i guess?
[13:58]  Bejiita Imako:
[13:58]  Bejiita Imako: true Kime
[13:58]  herman Bergson: People...party time...just follow Qwark
[13:58]  Bejiita Imako: cu on tuesday
[13:58]  Bejiita Imako:
[13:58]  Debbie Dee (framdor): night all...
[13:58]  Rodney Handrick: goodnight
[13:59]  Debbie Dee (framdor): what a fun debate.
[13:59]  oola Neruda: baiee all
[13:59]  Debbie Dee (framdor): cu next week herman
[13:59]  Rodney Handrick: bye oola
[13:59]  Bejiita Imako: heheh yes
[13:59]  Bejiita Imako: this amused me for sure
[13:59]  Bejiita Imako:
[14:00]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): It was a very nice evening...have a goodnight everybody
[14:00]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): (I'm going to paint...)
[14:00]  Rodney Handrick: bye Beertie
[14:00]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye:)))
[14:00]  Bejiita Imako: hugs all
[14:00]  Bejiita Imako: cu
[14:01]  Rodney Handrick: bye Bejitta