Sunday, October 14, 2012

423: slow assassination of moral values

Last night I was watching the movie "Basic Instinct" with Michael Douglas and Sharon Stone and observed the following scene.

In some meeting the psychologist describes the personality of the icepick murderer. The suspect, Catherine Tramell (Sharon Stone), Berkeley graduate in psychology and literature, wrote a book, 

describing the exact details of how the murder with the icepick took place. She also inherited 105 million dollars from her parents , who died in a mysterious accident…..

When leaving the meeting and entering the elevator there is the following conversation between the participants of the meeting (policemen of course):

Mr. A: "We call her in for questioning."
Mr. B: "She has got enough money to burn this whole place down."

Mr. C:"Won't do any good. She just walks in with some super star  lawyer, who got us all canned for wasting the taxpayer's money."

[OK….just for  those who do know or don't know the move. Eventually she does get interrogated. And there it is where every man wants to watch the movie only frame by frame:-)]

[13:19]  Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:19]  Qwark Allen: lol
[13:19]  Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩**✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩**
[13:19]  Mick Nerido: lol
[13:19]  Bejiita Imako:
[13:19]  herman Bergson: grins
[13:19]  herman Bergson: I knew

That, I thought, is exactly how the top 1% percent, the super wealthy, live their lives. The truth has become a commodity for them.

What is new in economics is the believe in financial incentives. Of course, the bonuses of millions of dollars are a nice example of how we can influence individual market behavior of people.

The health lobby, which I now and then are inclined to call the health terrorists, is the kind of group that also comes with such ideas.

Some time ago the health fighters came with the suggestion to add an extra tax on food products that make people fat. You know, greasy hamburgers, French fries, potato chips, candy of all kinds, etc.

This, the lobby believes, would stimulate people to buy healthier food in the supermarket. Does money really change behavior in that way?

It is not as simple as that. Take for instance that Israeli nursery. The employees were pretty annoyed because a lot of parents came always in too late to pick up their children.

Let them pay a fine!, was the brilliant idea. That would stop parents from coming late. The effect was astonishing: the number of late parents almost double.

After twelve weeks they canceled the penalty system.  People had  regarded the fine just as an extra payment. But things got even worse. The number of parents that came too late to pick up their children stayed on the higher level after dropping the fine.

Here you see how a financial incentive corrupted a moral obligation to be in time and the social value of responsibility for each other.

In 1993 there was a referendum in a small Swiss village for or against the storage of nuclear waste. The inhabitants didn't like the idea but just 51% said OK.

Then the economists came up with an idea: give these people a financial incentive to agree to the nuclear waste storage near their village.

The result was, that the acceptance of the waste project dropped to 25% ! Economists believe that offering money  makes something uncomfortable more bearable and acceptable.

However, the dedication to the public interest of the villagers did them regard the money offered as a disrespectful form of bribery.

An other experiment: two groups of children are asked to collect money for charity. One group listens to a motivational story, the other group is informed that they'll be paid for their efforts. This payment does not come from the charity money.

The result of the experiment was that the group that got paid for their work collected less money than the volunteers.

These examples illustrate how the introduction of money in a non-commercial situation can change people's attitudes and can supplant their moral and social responsibility.

The Discussion

[13:28]  herman Bergson: Thank you... ^_^
[13:28]  Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::
[13:28]  Qwark Allen: money its a 2 faces coin
[13:28]  Kime Babenco: Thanks
[13:28]  herman Bergson: The floor is yours ..
[13:28]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Interesting. The outcomes were opposite to expectation of the economic thinkers.
[13:28]  herman Bergson: Yes Qwark...
[13:29]  herman Bergson: but economists and politicians seem to see only one face :-)
[13:29]  Qwark Allen: ahhaha yes
[13:29]  Qwark Allen: and us all the other one
[13:29]  Mick Nerido: If you really want to do something you will do it for free...
[13:29]  herman Bergson: yes :-))
[13:29]  herman Bergson: Yes Mick...
[13:30]  herman Bergson: and financial incentives corrupt that attitude
[13:30]  Kime Babenco: It can be like a sociological result... People react on things they hear, ... esplecilally when they more information about it
[13:30]  Bejiita Imako: seems so indeed
[13:30]  herman Bergson: which means that it is not only money that rules this world
[13:30]  Mick Nerido: when I paint a picture I don't think of how much i will be paid for it.
[13:31]  herman Bergson: ahh good example Mick....
[13:31]  herman Bergson: Let's take this a step further...
[13:31]  Qwark Allen: was thinking, that our pay check is another exemple of financial incentive
[13:31]  Debbie Dee (framdor): With money we can buy the time to do things that appear to be important
[13:31]  herman Bergson: You paint the painting driven by your artistic feelings and insight
[13:31]  Kime Babenco: If people say there are not enough engineers, maybe more kids start to study engineering... which results in too much engineers
[13:32]  herman Bergson: hold on plz...
[13:32]  herman Bergson: let's stick to Mick's remark
[13:32]  herman Bergson: He makes a painting as a driven artist...
[13:33]  herman Bergson: then it sells for 5000 whatever currency...
[13:33]  herman Bergson: Now the next painting....
[13:34]  Mick Nerido: putting a monitary value on it some how cheapens it... and i now paint for pay, not good.
[13:34]  herman Bergson: Mick might think..when I use the same style, technique might sell too for 5000
[13:34]  herman Bergson: ahh...Mick...that is the other side of the coin indeed
[13:35]  herman Bergson: for the second painting you also can just follow your artistic drive...
[13:35]  herman Bergson: It even doesn't sell for 50....
[13:35]  Debbie Dee (framdor): You still need groceries though.
[13:36]  Qwark Allen: that is the point
[13:36]  Mick Nerido: artists often "sell out" when the money temps them
[13:36]  Qwark Allen: if the currency is a drachma, he will starve, even its 5000
[13:36]  herman Bergson: in a philosophical sense...
[13:36]  herman Bergson: what you observe here
[13:36]  Qwark Allen: and have no strength to make the second one
[13:36]  Debbie Dee (framdor): It seems you can be poor and hungry and motivated by the love of life; or rich and amoral ;)
[13:37]  herman Bergson: is that the selling/buying principle here corrupts essential human valus
[13:37]  Mick Nerido: That's why a long struggle to be successful in art is often better then immediate success
[13:37]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the first painting is easy...I paint with joy and don't thinkof any money..the second painting is more difficult..
[13:38]  herman Bergson: Yes Mick...for what values most is this struggle....
[13:38]  herman Bergson: the search for meaning in what you do
[13:38]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): imagine I get the same money for it as good as the first one?
[13:38]  Mick Nerido: It's a matter of motivation, from inside or outside
[13:39]  herman Bergson: If you get the same money is as good as the first one at least...
[13:39]  Lizzy Pleides: every painting should be a first painting, ... good motivation, not thinking of the money
[13:39]  Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:39]  Bejiita Imako: exactly
[13:39]  herman Bergson: The buyer may have the idea that it is a bargain for he thinks the second is way more better :-)
[13:39]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Now what if mick prints 100 limited edition copies of his first masterpiece?
[13:39]  Mick Nerido: then when I die it is suddenly worth more!
[13:39]  Qwark Allen: that only happens, if you don`t depend on the art to survive
[13:40]  Debbie Dee (framdor): And some coffee mugs with micks glory on them?
[13:40]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): after I have died my children will be
[13:40]  herman Bergson: Should I kill you to make you rich now, Mick????^_^
[13:40]  Bejiita Imako: hahaha
[13:40]  Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:40]  Qwark Allen: lol
[13:40]  Bejiita Imako: how brutal!
[13:40]  Bejiita Imako: lol
[13:40]  herman Bergson: That is art..:-))
[13:40]  Debbie Dee (framdor): next week hermen - he just got back.
[13:40]  oola Neruda: if they are not on an original plate or screen... like an etched plate or a litho stone or silk screen then they are not worth zip even if it has a so called certificate of authenticity
[13:40]  Mick Nerido: it's not a good idea Herman...
[13:41]  herman Bergson: I agree Mick..too happy to see you gain
[13:41]  Qwark Allen: brilliant idea hermann
[13:41]  Kime Babenco: Art is relative... Some like a painting, some like a concert of Iron Maiden (not me, it was an example)
[13:41]  Debbie Dee (framdor): But they sell oola. Look at the stores around you.
[13:41]  Mick Nerido: But if you collected my work It would make you richer
[13:41]  oola Neruda: i know ...and people are being ripped off
[13:41]  Qwark Allen: get some of his paints, kill him, then i talk to a friend in a TV station
[13:41]  oola Neruda: they even sign them and sell them at art fairs
[13:41]  herman Bergson: gold on...plz
[13:42]  Qwark Allen: then the paints will value much more
[13:42]  herman Bergson: hold on
[13:42]  oola Neruda: and people don't understand they are worthless
[13:42]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Qwark
[13:42]  oola Neruda: no quark
[13:42]  herman Bergson: Let's get back to outr main issue here....
[13:42]  Bejiita Imako: heheh
[13:42]  Debbie Dee (framdor): If they are nice paintings they are worth hanging on the wall.
[13:42]  Debbie Dee (framdor): oops
[13:42]  oola Neruda: it has to do with whether it was printed from the plate the artist made themselves
[13:42]  oola Neruda: not a photo of a painting etc
[13:42]  Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:43]  Debbie Dee (framdor): maybe. But colour reproductions these days are superb
[13:43]  Kime Babenco: I can give 200 R$ to go to a show... but not for a painting... even thatl,asts longer... I guess it's the brain concept of it
[13:43]  Bejiita Imako: yes hard to distinguish
[13:43]  Bejiita Imako: thats why u have all these safety features in money
[13:43]  Lizzy Pleides: a painting is not only a canvas and some color, its more
[13:43]  herman Bergson: hello???
[13:43]  Debbie Dee (framdor): what safety features are in money?
[13:44]  Bejiita Imako: plus modern copiers even sense thats a bill and refuse to print and often even redirects u to an anti counterfeit page on the web
[13:44]  oola Neruda: that is the key ... reproduction
[13:44]  herman Bergson: What are we discussing here..??lol
[13:44]  Qwark Allen: loads of safety stuff in a note
[13:44]  oola Neruda: sorry
[13:44]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Children ....
[13:44]  Bejiita Imako: a copier cant put the metal thread and hologram in the bills for ex
[13:44]  herman Bergson: ORDER!!!!! lol
[13:44]  Debbie Dee (framdor): hey - who started talking counterfeiting?
[13:44]  Qwark Allen: first one, is that they are not made of paper, they are made of cotton
[13:44]  Lizzy Pleides: shhhhhh, .... let herman speak!
[13:44]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I was on about copies of a painting
[13:45]  herman Bergson: laughs
[13:45]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins
[13:45]  Mick Nerido: all things equal money puts value on something that may not have real value after all
[13:45]  herman Bergson: ok..are we done??? lol
[13:45]  Kime Babenco: The idea is ... you have to like it... If you don't like paintings, like me.. (sorry-atleast most, not all) it will not change me or have any impact on me...
[13:45]  Lizzy Pleides: out of control everything here, lol
[13:45]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): [13:32] herman Bergson: let's stick to Mick's remark
[13:45]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you started...
[13:45]  Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•   Helloooooo!  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜  
[13:45]  Qwark Allen: Hey! rodney
[13:45]  Lizzy Pleides: Hi Rod
[13:45]  Bejiita Imako: hi Rod
[13:46]  Debbie Dee (framdor): im quiet.... shhhh. listen to prof H
[13:46]  Rodney Handrick: hi folks
[13:46]  herman Bergson: OH YES....We need Rodney to keep things under control!!!
[13:46]  herman Bergson: Welcome Rodney...
[13:46]  Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:46]  Qwark Allen: lol
[13:46]  Bejiita Imako: hi rod
[13:46]  herman Bergson: Perfect timing
[13:46]  Qwark Allen: don`t kill him, he is a friend
[13:46]  Bejiita Imako: hahahah
[13:46]  Rodney Handrick: hi everyone
[13:46]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): does he paint?
[13:46]  Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:46]  Qwark Allen: lol
[13:46]  herman Bergson: grins
[13:46]  Bejiita Imako: or just print copies
[13:46]  Bejiita Imako: lol
[13:46]  Lizzy Pleides: are you a painter Rod?
[13:46]  herman Bergson: Come on, people…
[13:46]  herman Bergson: this is e serious class… ^_^
[13:47]  Bejiita Imako: anyway a good paining can really make a room stand out
[13:47]  Qwark Allen: we had a good giggle for sure .-)
[13:47]  Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩**✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩**
[13:47]  Bejiita Imako:
[13:47]  Mick Nerido: We come to this class because we want to not for pay
[13:47]  Bejiita Imako: painting
[13:47]  herman Bergson: Well
[13:48]  Kime Babenco: There is a saying here about a painter that made a nice paint, He said it has no value now.. and put his name under it and said now it's about 10 000 US$
[13:48]  herman Bergson: I SEE A RED DOOR AND I WANT TO PAINT IT BLACK !!!!!
[13:48]  Debbie Dee (framdor): hey mick!
[13:48]  herman Bergson: CLASS DISMISSED ...LOL
[13:49]  Bejiita Imako: hehee
[13:49]  Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩**✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩**
[13:49]  herman Bergson: Any painters in the room?
[13:49]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): laughs
[13:49]  Qwark Allen: ehehehhe
[13:49]  Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:49]  Kime Babenco: A song from Rolling Stones
[13:49]  Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::
[13:49]  Qwark Allen: ¸¸.´ ¯¨.¸¸`**   **´ ¸¸.¨¯` H E R MA N ´ ¯¨.¸¸`**   **´ ¸¸.¨¯`
[13:49]  Bejiita Imako: i think i might have a bucket somewhere
[13:49]  Debbie Dee (framdor): thats a great ending - herman - but it won't silence us
[13:49]  herman Bergson: lol..
[13:49]  Lizzy Pleides: i am painting my bedroom next week
[13:49]  Bejiita Imako:
[13:50]  herman Bergson: never had such a funny discussion :-)
[13:50]  Bejiita Imako: hahaa as it should be
[13:50]  Bejiita Imako:
[13:50]  Mick Nerido: I once painted my room black, parents not amused!
[13:50]  oola Neruda: printmaker who can teach painting and most other art subjects
[13:50]  Bejiita Imako: hahaha
[13:50]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:50]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks for the article on Venezuela Herman. What do you think of Chavz' social democracy?
[13:50]  Qwark Allen: lets paint that door
[13:50]  herman Bergson: YEAH!!!!
[13:50]  Qwark Allen: bejita can do nice graphiti on it also
[13:50]  Bejiita Imako:
[13:50]  Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:51]  Qwark Allen: .-)))
[13:51]  Bejiita Imako: always wanted to learn do these cool airbrush paintings
[13:51]  Bejiita Imako: really awesome stuff
[13:51]  Kime Babenco: Tell me Debbie...Venezuela is our my neighbour
[13:51]  herman Bergson: Yeah it is Bejiita
[13:51]  herman Bergson: \
[13:51]  Qwark Allen: how much worth that paint behind us? for real
[13:51]  Bejiita Imako: a work buddy have a welding screen painted like that
[13:52]  Qwark Allen: from the chappel
[13:52]  Bejiita Imako: i want one too
[13:52]  Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:52]  Qwark Allen: its worthless
[13:52]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Kime, it seems that there is great support for this man amongst the poor, after good results over the last three terms of office
[13:52]  Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman, great class, are you sure it's not an art class?
[13:52]  herman Bergson: yes...
[13:52]  Qwark Allen: no matter what money you have, you cannot buy it
[13:52]  herman Bergson: Well I am in doubt now Mick...
[13:52]  Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:52]  Kime Babenco: think Chavez is very well to the poor people of Venezuela (majority)
[13:53]  Kime Babenco: People from Venezuela you meet in SL are not that poor
[13:53]  herman Bergson: did you get my URL Debbie?
[13:53]  Debbie Dee (framdor): It seems that all of the indicators of life quality are up. and education is strong.
[13:53]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I did. Thanks herman.
[13:53]  herman Bergson: The poor do not have computers Kime....that hasn't changed...
[13:54]  Qwark Allen: yes
[13:54]  Qwark Allen: see how many people from africa are at SL
[13:54]  herman Bergson: But yet education level in Venezuela has changed !
[13:54]  Qwark Allen: a good example
[13:54]  Debbie Dee (framdor): It seems that the first world media are pro the oligarchs,
[13:54]  Mick Nerido: gotta go... bye everyone!
[13:54]  Bejiita Imako: cu Mick
[13:54]  herman Bergson: none I guess Qwark..
[13:54]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Im here qwark. Its me.
[13:54]  Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•  Bye !  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜  
[13:54]  Qwark Allen: where you live?
[13:54]  herman Bergson: or a few fromSouth Africa...
[13:54]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Im from africa
[13:55]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I live in south africa
[13:55]  Qwark Allen: ehehheeh
[13:55]  Rodney Handrick: I visited this art museum a couple of days ago...
[13:55]  Kime Babenco: South Africa if I remember well
[13:55]  Qwark Allen: even so you are a rarity
[13:55]  Lizzy Pleides: i must go too, Good night everybody!
[13:55]  Qwark Allen: thats not a good example
[13:55]  Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:55]  Qwark Allen: lol
[13:55]  Bejiita Imako: but even places like Nigeria i think is advancing
[13:55]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I know :(
[13:55]  herman Bergson: yes Debbie...and allow me to ask...are you white?
[13:55]  Qwark Allen: above south farica, how many you know?
[13:55]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I am. From british and dutch descent.
[13:56]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I know none.
[13:56]  herman Bergson: But same story about India Qwark,,,
[13:56]  Qwark Allen: in all africa, maybe thats the only place where you can log here
[13:56]  herman Bergson: Only the rich are in SL
[13:56]  herman Bergson: and educated
[13:56]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Thats why I often see things from a poorer perspective
[13:56]  Kime Babenco: ;-)
[13:56]  Qwark Allen: india has lots class media ppl
[13:56]  Kime Babenco: Lol , I guess not
[13:56]  Qwark Allen: i know a lot of indians at internet
[13:57]  oola Neruda: there are many who are not rich or educated in south africa
[13:57]  Kime Babenco: In every country are rich people
[13:57]  herman Bergson: Only from Europe and the US you also get in the trash :-)))
[13:57]  Bejiita Imako: well India is the new it nation as i get it
[13:57]  Kime Babenco: Even in the poorest country of the world
[13:57]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes. We are better off than most african countries, but thing are still not fair.
[13:57]  Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•  Bye !  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜  
[13:57]  Qwark Allen: for now
[13:57]  Qwark Allen: ty hermann
[13:57]  Rodney Handrick: bye
[13:57]  Qwark Allen: seee you tuesday
[13:57]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I know a man from Africa too here in sl
[13:57]  Debbie Dee (framdor): By qwerky qwark ;)
[13:57]  Kime Babenco: In every country are good and bad people as well...
[13:57]  herman Bergson: Bye Qwark
[13:58]  Bejiita Imako:
[13:58]  Rodney Handrick: this is true
[13:58]  Bejiita Imako: party time i guess?
[13:58]  Bejiita Imako:
[13:58]  Bejiita Imako: true Kime
[13:58]  herman Bergson: time...just follow Qwark
[13:58]  Bejiita Imako: cu on tuesday
[13:58]  Bejiita Imako:
[13:58]  Debbie Dee (framdor): night all...
[13:58]  Rodney Handrick: goodnight
[13:59]  Debbie Dee (framdor): what a fun debate.
[13:59]  oola Neruda: baiee all
[13:59]  Debbie Dee (framdor): cu next week herman
[13:59]  Rodney Handrick: bye oola
[13:59]  Bejiita Imako: heheh yes
[13:59]  Bejiita Imako: this amused me for sure
[13:59]  Bejiita Imako:
[14:00]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): It was a very nice evening...have a goodnight everybody
[14:00]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): (I'm going to paint...)
[14:00]  Rodney Handrick: bye Beertie
[14:00]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye:)))
[14:00]  Bejiita Imako: hugs all
[14:00]  Bejiita Imako: cu
[14:01]  Rodney Handrick: bye Bejitta

No comments:

Post a Comment