Tuesday, March 2, 2021

906: The V.O.C......

 The Dutch East India Company, the VOC, established in 1602, was the first company in the world to issue shares to a broad audience. 


Before the rise of the VOC, a limited group of moneylenders was already able to participate in the financing of a single sea voyage. 


Whenever the voyage was successful, the investors subsequently shared in the profits, but whenever the journey ended in failure, they had lost their money. 


The VOC for the very first time enabled investors from all strata of the population to invest in a company 


that intended to continue to exist for many years and that already had a lot of the features of a modern public limited company.


Trade in VOC shares grew rapidly. With the first issue, the VOC brought in 6.5 million guilders, and the company subsequently grew to become the first multinational in the world. 


In 1606, only four years after the establishment of the company, the increase in value of the shares was already at 200%. 


In 1610, the company paid out dividends for the first time. Soon after the initial public offering,’ a thriving trade grew up, and Amsterdam developed itself as the cradle of global share trading.


The issuance of tradable shares entailed a revolutionary development in 17th-century life.  


Investors were able to sell their shares and get their money back, while the participation amount still remained in the company. 

It is not surprising that other companies, both domestic and abroad, soon followed suit. Governments, too, discovered the benefits of the public capital market. 


The VOC continued to exist for almost 200 years. In 1799, it was effectively abolished. [From www.beursgeschiedenis.nl]


What role did religious ideas play in this change? Max Weber was the first to formulate the idea that capitalism and Protestantism are related. 


The Reformation implied on the one hand a certain secularization of the sacred, while on the other hand, it sanctified the performance of labor.  


Thus the line 'Ora et labora', ( Pray and Work ) derived from Benedictus of Nursia, was replaced by Calvin by the line 'Laborare est orare'. ( To Work is To Pray ).


Other-world asceticism of Catholicism gave way to a world-oriented asceticism of Calvinism, which certainly helped the acceptance of capitalism. 


Yet there is still much debate among scientists as to how to imagine this interaction. 


Weber himself believed that the religious and moral motives of Protestantism as such led to forms of capitalist activity.


"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread until thou return to the earth" is from Genesis 3:19. 


As a punishment for breaking God's command, Adam and Eve must henceforth work for a living.


This was undoubtedly the justification for the commercial zeal of the Dutch merchants, which thereby helped capitalism to get started.


Thank you for your attention again....


The Discussion


[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:17] herman Bergson: This little country...Texas is 15 times larger....., shaped the world

[13:18] CB Axel: Is that size in area or in population?

[13:18] herman Bergson: Size in area, CB

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the Netherlands are about 300 km long:))

[13:19] herman Bergson: And yet its influence on history has been enormous

[13:19] herman Bergson: 350 km to be exact :-)

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats something for sure

[13:20] herman Bergson: That is the distance we always saw on the meter when traveling from Maastricht to Lauwersoog (the Island:-)

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes:)

[13:20] CB Axel: Texas has almost twice the population, too.

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i once did that by bike:)

[13:20] herman Bergson: We have 17 million CB

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in those days we didn't have so many people

[13:20] CB Axel: 29 million in Texas.

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:21] CB Axel: Neither did Texas! LOL

[13:21] herman Bergson: Not a highly populated state

[13:21] CB Axel: No. There's a whole lot of empty space in Texas.

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but the south of the Netherlands didn't belong to Netherland those days

[13:21] herman Bergson: You can go on a Cruz there and meet nobody and nothing

[13:22] CB Axel: And not just between Ted Cruz's ears.

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): soit was even smaller

[13:22] herman Bergson: Nevertheless Beertje. we did it \o/

[13:22] herman Bergson: We invented capitalism

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes:)

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I see

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it was a rich country then

[13:23] CB Axel nods

[13:24] CB Axel: Was trade the biggest business back then?

[13:24] herman Bergson: from a legal perspective the interesting aspect of the "invention" was that the VOC was treated asa legal person.....

[13:24] herman Bergson: Oh yes CB

[13:25] herman Bergson: You lend money to the VOC....it buys ships, crews etc for it and makes a profit with those ships...

[13:25] CB Axel: So, the US didn't invent treating businesses as people either?

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa that concept!

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): is familiar

[13:26] herman Bergson: When it goes wrong you don't loose your money...as was what happened before.....your share lost value only

[13:26] CB Axel: How much did the VOC influence politics and law?

[13:26] herman Bergson: Don't think so CB....The VOC was juridically a "person" I guess

[13:27] herman Bergson: In those days the VOC WAS the politics, I guess

[13:29] herman Bergson: An amazing moment in history

[13:29] CB Axel: So people have always been less important than money.

[13:29] Laila Schuman: not to a mother....

[13:29] herman Bergson: Well....if you add the slave trade to that CB....

[13:30] CB Axel: Those weren't considered people. They were a commodity.

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly seems to be the case, money goes before everything

[13:30] CB Axel: Pretty ship, Beertje.

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): safety, human lives ect

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this we clearly see with Bophal and Deepwater horizon, obvious signs for disasrter were disregarded cause money flow would cease

[13:31] herman Bergson: Universal Human Rights have only be agreed upon after World War II

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and in case of bophal they wanted to sasve money by cutting down on staff and maintenance even they knew what dangerous stuff was in there

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and murdered 1000s

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with poison

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mone before all!

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): money

[13:32] CB Axel: Also the power issues in Texas, Bejiita.

[13:32] Laila Schuman: uber alles

[13:32] herman Bergson: That is the face of capitalism....money and profits come first

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes that we see now

[13:32] CB Axel: Winterizing the grid would have taken away from the profits.

[13:33] herman Bergson: SO they didn't do it.....

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and now people freeze to death and the survivors get bills of millions of dollars

[13:33] CB Axel nods

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): crazy!

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(

[13:33] CB Axel: Thank you, Netherlanders!

[13:33] herman Bergson: And the reasoning is that that is more profitable  than preventing a problem like that which happens only once in a decade

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (aims champagne bottle at Herman)

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): naaa its not YOUR fault

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ur all nice

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:34] CB Axel: Severe winter weather has happened two years in a row now.

[13:35] CB Axel: They need to wake up and smell the coffee.

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mmmmm fresh coffee

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yum

[13:35] herman Bergson: I must admit that it was a peculiar discovery that the Dutch stood at the cradle of capitalism :-))

[13:35] CB Axel: Instead they have people saying that wind turbines don't work in the winter.

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but can you blame them for the trouble in Texas now?

[13:35] CB Axel: Yes.

[13:35] herman Bergson: I heard that bogus too CB

[13:36] CB Axel: Iowa and Illinois have wind farms that work all year round.

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but heard that here in sweden to and there have indeed not been windy at all during this cold period

[13:36] herman Bergson: Of course not Beertje.....this is the flow of history

[13:37] CB Axel: Wait. Who are you blaming for the trouble in Texas? The Dutch?

[13:37] CB Axel: I blame Texans.

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or if its just a complaint as to why they shut down a fully working nuclear power station (for economic reasons caused by Fukushima, we dont even have tsunamis and earthquakes here!)

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): [13:33] CB Axel: Thank you, Netherlanders!

[13:37] herman Bergson: Seems to me a better choice indeed :-)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that power plant could have ran indeed many more years safley

[13:37] CB Axel: Ah. I do blame you for capitalism :)

[13:37] herman Bergson: Capitalism has also brought a lot of good things

[13:38] herman Bergson: The central question today is the priorities.....

[13:38] Laila Schuman: YES

[13:38] herman Bergson: equal spread of wealth

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well it have both god and bad sides,

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa indeed equalizing

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the greed factor is the big problem in capitalism

[13:39] CB Axel: I guess I shouldn't blame the trouble in Texas completely on capitalsim.

[13:39] herman Bergson: diminishing the gap between the poor and rich

[13:39] CB Axel: It should be blamed on unregulated capitalism.

[13:39] Laila Schuman: and politics

[13:40] Laila Schuman: greed

[13:40] herman Bergson: In the 80 Reagan and Thatcher deregulated capitalism a lot.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: it gave way to unlimited greed indeed

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:41] CB Axel: It used to be the case that a business had to create a product or service that was good and useful and people would pay for.

[13:41] CB Axel: Now they just make things and provide service good enough to get by.

[13:42] Laila Schuman: now it is if you can make the product "desirable"...

[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes....but the main goal  should not be the profit it would produce, but what good it was for the community

[13:42] CB Axel: They don't care about quality.

[13:42] Laila Schuman: because that makes YOU desirable.. (you think)

[13:43] Laila Schuman: quality is not as important as perception

[13:43] herman Bergson: Next ime we'll look for an alternative for this money and profit focused system

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems so indeed

[13:44] CB Axel: True, Laila.

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:44] herman Bergson: At this moment advertisement and marketing are the magic tools

[13:45] herman Bergson: Just imagine that Facebook and google  and others only live of the income from advertisements....

[13:45] herman Bergson: I find that so absurd

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and data

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:46] herman Bergson: A whole business model based on manipulating and influencing people

[13:46] CB Axel: Well, that's how newspapers survived as long as they have.

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we think its free but it is not because we sell our souls to them and get spam in return

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): more or less

[13:46] CB Axel: I'm pretty good at ignoring spam.

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they know a lot about you CB

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): more than you want

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well its no harmful code involved so

[13:47] CB Axel: They know I like cats and pizza. :)

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also FB would not say blast you with say pornsites and other unserious stuff

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess i can take that

[13:48] Laila Schuman: they do know a lot about us.... i have a journalism background... and, therefore, propaganda

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well...we know a lot about Beertje.....

[13:49] Laila Schuman: propaganda techniques

[13:49] herman Bergson: She is 14 years in SL now

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oh dear

[13:49] herman Bergson: So let's conclude our discussion with celebrating that :-)

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay

[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:49] CB Axel: Yay! Happy rez day, Beertje!

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): dankjewel:)

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:50] herman Bergson: Thank you all again......

[13:50] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:50] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class:-))

[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lets celebrate with some

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): * PLUPP *

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):


Thursday, February 25, 2021

905: Who Invented Capitalism....???

 Who invented capitalism?


In the previous lecture, we saw that communities in the Middle Ages were organized by a feudal system.


Feudalism was a combination of the legal, economic, military, and cultural customs that flourished in Medieval Europe between the 9th and 15th centuries. 


Broadly defined, it was a way of structuring society around relationships that were derived from the holding of land in exchange for service or labor.


In other words, if you work my land supply me with food, I'll supply protection and safety to you.


It was precisely on this point that Europe underwent a decisive change in the sixteenth century. From that time on, the people's market would give way to a market that was truly capitalist. 


With the latter, the merchant puts the maximization of his individual profit first and the community becomes an unrelated category. 


It is clear that this transition did not take place equally quickly everywhere. In several countries around the North Sea, for example, 


thinking in terms of individual interests took hold relatively quickly, while Italian economists continued to emphasize the significance of the common interest well into the eighteenth century.


Several countries around the North Sea...I'll be honest with you. THE country, that "invented" capitalism was the Netherlands.


It was my ancestors, who were thinking in terms of individual interests as the main motivation of trade. And they invented a perfect system for it: shares.


In 1602 shares in the Dutch Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie (VOC, better known as the Dutch East India Company) were issued, 


suddenly creating what is usually considered the world's first publicly-traded company.. 


A publicly-traded company is a company whose ownership is organized via shares of stock (the total of all shares of a company)which are intended to be freely traded on a stock exchange market.

The arrival of VOC shares was momentous because it opened up the ownership of companies and the ideas they generated, 


beyond the ranks of the aristocracy and the very rich, so that everyone could finally participate in the speculative freedom of transactions. 


By expanding ownership of its company pie for a certain price and a tentative return, the Dutch had done something historic: they had created a capital market.


Ultimately, capitalist thinking took over the whole width, a change to which several factors contributed. The emergence of national states after the Peace of Munster (1648), for example, 


which ended the 80 Years War between the Dutch Provinces and Spain giving the Provinces independence.


It led to the distinction between a public and a private sphere. While the public interest became a matter for states or absolutist monarchs, merchants were primarily concerned with their private interests.


 As a result, European entrepreneurs increasingly focused on maximizing their corporate profits while leaving public affairs to others. 


This is evidence of a way of thinking that differs essentially from the medieval pursuit of community.


The tables had turned. In the Middle Ages, the order was community first, then private interest. From now on, however, it was private interest first 


and the interests of the community,? We'll leave them to the state. And capitalism was a fact....


Thank you for your attention again....

The Discussion

[13:18] Thank you for your attention again....

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): We are not going to condemn capitalism are we?

[13:19] herman Bergson: it was us...the Dutchies who dropped community interests for private interests....

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well did they really drop it??

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or change it

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still not really sure that the feudal ism was much more that a nthr form of slavery

[13:20] herman Bergson: If you look ate the huge gap between the poor and the rich since the 16th century.....what is your conclusion?

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there was definitely same gap for different reasons before

[13:20] CB Axel: There has always been a huge gap between the poor and the rich.

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i agree

[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma, I guess that is true....but it also was a life of reciprocity

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is just a different form of gap

[13:21] CB Axel: The nobility was rich. Their serfs were poor.

[13:21] herman Bergson: It wasn't a welfare state indeed

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the farmers were the poorest and stood lowest in the feudal chain

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks there is a loss of balance between the rich and poor

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that grows still today

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think there were 4 classes

[13:22] CB Axel: I think capitalism just made a middle class.

[13:22] CB Axel: Or a bigger middle class.

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): also thinks more money education would help

[13:22] herman Bergson: What I am thinking of is....

[13:23] CB Axel: 4 classes, Bejiita?

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): https://www.pinterest.se/pin/761741724445647537/?autologin=true

[13:23] CB Axel: Rich, poor, middle

[13:23] herman Bergson: when private interests became dominant and a majority had to suffer poverrty...that gave rise to revolutions

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is true

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dont know how to say it in english. In Swedish its from top to bottom, Adel, präster(priests), borgare, bönder(peasants)

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh the monks as a class

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa

[13:24] herman Bergson: That was the medieval structure Bejiita

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats what i learned in school anyway

[13:25] CB Axel: I wondered if the clergy had their own class. :)

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): think so

[13:25] CB Axel: w00t w00t

[13:25] herman Bergson: until the urbanisation took place and you got the craftsmen...guilds...is that the right word?

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): most retained the community

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): guil

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): guild yes

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa

[13:25] FrannyDJ Dean is offline.

[13:26] herman Bergson: That was the upcoming middleclass

[13:26] CB Axel: So you don't think there were revolutions before there was capitalism? Or is it the other way around?

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hmmm

[13:26] herman Bergson: hmmmm...interesting question Gemma

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that was cb

[13:27] herman Bergson: As far as my knowledge of history goes.....I think a revolution of the lower classes against the upper class was 1789 as a first one

[13:27] herman Bergson: in France

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but out of some of the revolution good came

[13:27] CB Axel: I'm thinking about 1215 when King John (?) was made to sign the Magna Carta.

[13:28] CB Axel: I think it was John.

[13:28] herman Bergson: Interesting CB...

[13:28] herman Bergson: We also had Cromwell....

[13:28] herman Bergson: don't know the details about him

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he was a doozy

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:29] herman Bergson: a what?

[13:29] CB Axel: A doozy.

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is just a term for some kind of guy

[13:29] CB Axel: I'll look up a definition.

[13:29] herman Bergson: what is a doozy? :-)

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I'm Sorry! i used it

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sounds like a tired bastard

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): doozing off

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he caused a lot of trouble

[13:30] herman Bergson: Oh he did...

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): many heads rolled

[13:30] FrannyDJ Dean is online.

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:30] CB Axel: An extraordinary one of its kind

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right!!

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): like trump is a doozy

[13:30] herman Bergson: but as a revolution I regard a conflict between social classes.....not between political paries

[13:30] CB Axel: That's what Merriam-Webster says it is.

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah k

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): guess that is why i used it

[13:31] CB Axel: The Magna Carta was a conflict between the king and the nobility.

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): first term that came to mind

[13:31] herman Bergson: But ...reluctant to say it...but the Dutch invented capitalism

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it sounds familiar

[13:31] herman Bergson: making money with money

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we wont blame you

[13:32] CB Axel: There is nothing wrong with capitalism. Just unfettered capitalism.

[13:32] CB Axel: It needs to be regulated.

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i agree cb

[13:32] herman Bergson: I agree CB

[13:33] herman Bergson: It is only that it has gone out of control in our days

[13:33] CB Axel: If you let businesses do anything they want in the interest of profit you end up with an entire power grid failing. :)

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and covid did not help!!

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): noded

[13:33] herman Bergson: Ahh Gemma COVID helped.....

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed it can be made to work but indeed out of control now

[13:33] CB Axel: I blame the libertarians. They're against government regulation.

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well not the poor

[13:33] herman Bergson: It revealed that you can not use a system of market forces in the healthcare system.....

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm true Gemma

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:34] CB Axel: Very true

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): think they will admit that here ?

[13:34] herman Bergson: they begin to realize this here in the Netherlands...it shows to be one big failure

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but true

[13:34] CB Axel: More and more Americans are beginning to see it that way, Gemma.

[13:34] CB Axel: Hence the popularity of Obama Care.

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but not those that will do anything about it soon

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is a mess of a so called health system

[13:35] CB Axel: They will if people vote for those who will do something.

[13:35] herman Bergson: it is a kind of balance....

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not a system just a mess

[13:35] herman Bergson: between private interest and  community interests...

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly even more peope opposed obama care and voted Trump in

[13:36] herman Bergson: and these days private interests still dominate the debate

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep and with their money

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and some even go from government to work in the industry

[13:37] CB Axel: Even some people who voted for Trump like Obama Care (as long as you don't call it that).

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:37] herman Bergson: Americans are funny people :-)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I thnk Biden has he idea of improving it

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm confusing

[13:38] CB Axel: With Trump it was the other way around. He brought in people from private business to try to run the government. DeVoss, for example.

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it  is

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oye

[13:38] herman Bergson: If you want to hear the latest news....

[13:38] CB Axel: Well, Herman, a lot of people vote on single issues.

[13:38] herman Bergson: America lost its international leadership under Trump

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is  a huge problem yes

[13:39] herman Bergson: Biden tries to restore it....

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa i hope he can mess everything out and untie it, at moment it looks a bit like my tangle of 3D filament at my production station

[13:39] herman Bergson: but the reaction in Europe is...

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he will

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I bet you

[13:39] CB Axel: If they think Democrats will take their guns, they'll vote for a Republican no matter how incompetent they are.

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and just like that quite hopeless to untie (this particular piece did not came on a spool)

[13:39] herman Bergson: You may...but what after your four years.....so no way

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): depends

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:40] CB Axel: If a politician says they're not anti-abortion, some people would not vote for them if they promised anything else.

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:41] herman Bergson: We have a number of one-issue parties here

[13:41] herman Bergson: So silly

[13:41] herman Bergson: a party for 50+ elderly

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:41] herman Bergson: a party against islamization

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a party for animals

[13:42] CB Axel: I'm not sure taking some of the responsibility for leadership away from the US is a bad thing.

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ll

[13:42] herman Bergson: a party against immigants

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): animals?

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:42] herman Bergson: Ahh yes...A Party for Animals

[13:42] herman Bergson: the rights of animals

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we stuff all the issues into our two

[13:42] CB Axel: Party animals? LOL

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): all the chickens can vote:))

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): love it

[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes we have CB :-)

[13:42] CB Axel: LOL, Beertje.

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): where the rich  show off all their tigers snakes and crocodiles?

[13:43] herman Bergson: lol Beertje

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i prefer party animals yes

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like me

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:43] herman Bergson: There are more chickens and pigs in the Netherlands than human inhabitants

[13:43] herman Bergson: we'll be out voted

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but it's really true..we have party for animals

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but what animals

[13:44] herman Bergson: for animal rights....

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sounds interesting though

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): all animals

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we have private groups or that

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (thuinks about happy mini goats jumping about)

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who lobby congrss

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thinks

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): otherwise it would be discrimination

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it guess we have over 40 parties here

[13:45] herman Bergson: Well...now you know where capitalism came from.....greedy Dutch merchants :-))

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha

[13:45] CB Axel: Oh, don't let the pigs vote or we'll end up like Animal Farm.

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:45] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol

[13:45] herman Bergson: All animals are equal, but pigs are more  equal :-)

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): actually the animals might do a better vote then us

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i bet they are not greedy

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol yes Herman

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and a happy goat party would be awesome

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): love those creatures, makes me happy

[13:46] CB Axel: There are more pigs than people in Iowa.

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) screams like a goat!! :

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:47] herman Bergson: Well I guess I can close this animal form for today :-))

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think I ruined your class with the party for animals:))

[13:47] herman Bergson: Unless you still have that important remark or observation....

[13:48] herman Bergson: Thank you all again....

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again Herman

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope i make it tomorrow and thursday

[13:48] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....and take your animals with you :-)

[13:48] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class:-)

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))