Thursday, May 6, 2021

922: Patterns in numbers......

 I try to imagine how the human brain moved from one stage to the next stage in learning arithmetics.


Remember the prehistoric homo sapiens. He carves notches in a stick every time a sheep enters the cave for the night.


The next day he uses the stick and his finger moves from notch to notch every time a sheep enters the cave. He is not yet counting.


Suppose he draws a short line in the sand and somewhat away from it another. He looks, then draws the two lines adjacent to each other.


Looks like the beginning of his tally stick. He does the same with four lines and he might begin to see a pattern.


He begins to give the notches and groups of notches names, so that he can talk about what he is doing: one and one adjacent to each other look like two.


This brings us to the more general questions. The basis of arithmetic is counting. But what do we actually know about counting? And on what rules is it based? 


The oldest transferred counting patterns in the world are the dash patterns of moon cycles from the Paleolithic, which we have seen in a previous lecture. 


But they made tally marks instead of counting. When moved people on from making tally marks to counting and then to search for patterns in numbers and shapes? 


All our knowledge about Babylonian arithmetic and geometry we get from four hundred clay tablets, of which the oldest dates back to 3000 BC. 


The first that stands out is that the Babylonians do not have a decimal system, which would be obvious when they counted with the fingers. 


Nor had the Babylonians a duodecimal system, which we encounter in many other places and which could also have been obvious 


on the basis of the number of phalanxes of the four long fingers (in total twelve), where the thumb is used as a pointer. 


The Babylonians, on the other hand, had a sexagesimal system, which means that they had 60 numbers where we have only 10. They had taken over this system from the Sumerians.


Why? I don't know. What we see is that all over the world homo sapiens began to count and began to discover patterns.


The system the Babylonians adopted satisfied their needs. We use base 10, the Babylonians base 60.


I am no mathematician, but it is said that you can calculate pretty easily in a sexagesimal system.


The fact is that we haven't forgotten the Babylonians as one of the first to introduce arithmetics in human culture.


We still think of them every day when we see that a circle is 6 x 60 = 360 degrees, or when we look at our watch and count the 60 minutes of an hour, easy to divide in halves or quarters.


Why are there 60 seconds in a minute? Go to the Babylonians and get your answer. And if you want more answers, google Babylonian mathematics. There is a lot to find.


What interests us here is the observation of the behavior of Homo Sapiens in relation to counting, his invention of counting and numbers and all kinds of patterns and principles in it and its consequences.


When you look at the list of Babylonian numbers, you may have noticed that one number is missing: the ZERO. They didn't have one.....


Thank you for your attention again......

The Discussion

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa so thats wHY A MINUTE HAVE 60 SECONDS!

[13:21] herman Bergson: Seems to be so yes....

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wondered over that sometimes but never checked

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guesses it is just like that

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but everything comes from something

[13:22] herman Bergson: Why this way of counting time stayed with us since the Babylonians I don't know

[13:22] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.

[13:22] herman Bergson: Maybe ut has to do with astronomy and astrology from that time

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): need to check this further

[13:23] herman Bergson: Astronomy works with orbs and circles....and in those days they used the sexagesimal dats back to the Babylonians

[13:24] herman Bergson: Astronomy has a long tradition/...

[13:24] CB Axel: But why would they use 60 as the basis of their mathematics.

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems a bit well uneven

[13:24] CB Axel: That seems like a large and cumbersome number.

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a bit like (ugh) inches!

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:25] herman Bergson: I only can have one answer...purely a pragmatic choice...

[13:25] theo Velde is online.

[13:25] herman Bergson: No no...the sexagesimal system seems to be, what I read about it, quite handy  and definitely not cumbersom

[13:26] herman Bergson: Recently I had a discussion with oola.....

[13:26] herman Bergson: about...

[13:26] herman Bergson: why using pictograms, Chinese characters, why the alphabet...?

[13:27] herman Bergson: I'd say...just coincidence and due to circumstances

[13:27] herman Bergson: Why pick the decimal system?

[13:27] CB Axel: Because we have 10 fingers.

[13:27] herman Bergson: Why pick the binary system....

[13:27] CB Axel: We don't have exactly 60 of anything.

[13:28] herman Bergson: simple....electricity can only be ON and OFF

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes those ten fingers

[13:28] CB Axel: Right. That's makes sense. On. Off. A choice of 2.

[13:28] herman Bergson: But that also led to duodecimal systems

[13:28] CB Axel: 10 fingers. A choice of 10.

[13:28] herman Bergson: yes

[13:28] CB Axel: But 60?

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but what about a foot and an inch?

[13:29] CB Axel: What in nature occurs 60 times?

[13:29] herman Bergson: 5 times 12 (the phalanxes) is 60

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:29] CB Axel: A foot started out as the length of someones foot.

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): size 36 or size 46?

[13:29] herman Bergson: so you can count to 50 on your fingers....wich are 5 per hand

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed foot is a such arbirtary measure

[13:30] CB Axel: But we don't have 5 hands. That seems more like a coincidence than anything.

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same inch is the lengh of someones arbitrary thumb

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just some average definition

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and an el is about 69 cm

[13:30] CB Axel: Right, Bejiita. And a yard was from nose to outstretched finger tips.

[13:30] herman Bergson: There is a ton of info on Babylonian mathematics on internet....You can have fun with it searching for answers

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with Fahrenheit,

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i cant tell if something is hot or cold on that like i can easily with the C scale

[13:31] herman Bergson: I began reading about it, but is endless :-)

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and Kelvin?

[13:31] CB Axel: Farhenheit was a mistake.

[13:32] herman Bergson: Sometimes man chose the wrong pattern indeed CB :-)

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): water freexe at 32 , boils at 212 and 108 degrees between

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): why?

[13:32] CB Axel: Farhenheit (the man) got the boiling point of water wrong.

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 180

[13:33] herman Bergson: Interesting to look into that :-)))

[13:33] herman Bergson: The Origin of Fahrenheit

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i get it 0 on farhrenheit was where concentrated brine freeze or something

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and used that as measure

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for some reason

[13:34] herman Bergson: As you see...the introduction of numbers and counting has become a source of fun :-)

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): kelvin is logical when working with low temperature things like the LHC magnet system

[13:34] CB Axel: If you find headaches fun, Herman. LOL

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same base as C

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahahah

[13:35] herman Bergson: lol

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed u can have loads of fun with math and stuff

[13:35] herman Bergson: I know where to stop, CB :-)

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa COME ON NOW HERMAN!

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:35] herman Bergson: I still regret thata I had such a bad maths education


[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but more advanced it gets

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the more fun and exciting it also gets

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i noticed

[13:37] CB Axel: I'm hungry, so 1 pear and 2 apples sound good to me right now.

[13:37] herman Bergson: yes ...2 pears and 4 apples I guess :-)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mmmm its tasty

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i eat mandarines now

[13:37] CB Axel: With some Stilton cheese and port wine!

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa yum

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cheese bricks

[13:38] herman Bergson: Ok...I understand....let's take a break till Thursday and enjoy the cheese , port and mandarins in the meantime :-)

[13:38] CB Axel: :)

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in the right quantities( A LOT)

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:39] herman Bergson: You don't need to count them :-)

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no just MUNCH

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:39] oola Neruda: I wonder if 60 is a result of dividing a circle over and over until it gets "clogged" and hard to keep dividing it?

[13:39] herman Bergson: Thank you all again :-)

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:39] CB Axel: That could be, oola. :)

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): why is a circle 360 degrees?

[13:39] herman Bergson: We'll discuss that after class oola ^_^

[13:40] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:40] oola Neruda: smiles

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also based on 60?

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:40] CB Axel: Because of those damned Babylonians, Bejiita.

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 6x6 = 36 so

[13:40] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:40] herman Bergson: 360 /2 = 180/2 =90/2 = 45

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:41] herman Bergson: but then?

[13:41] CB Axel: I'm going to get something  to eat. I'll see you all Thursday. :)

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there is another unit with 400 degrees

[13:41] herman Bergson: Enjoy CB :-))

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Cheddar cheese CB?

Saturday, May 1, 2021

921: And then we learned to count

 What has fascinated me from the moment I became a student of philosophy is mathematics. During high school I was a complete zero in mathematics. It seems I wasn't born for it.


But philosophy taught me what mathematics really is and how to understand and interpret it. It didn't make me a mathematician, but at least someone who understands what mathematics is.


Probably everybody will understand that mathematics must be a huge collection of regularities and principles.


This leads of course to the fascinating question: where do mathematics and the simpler branch of arithmetics come from.? 

The invention of numbers undoubtedly has an empirical basis. There must be a relationship with problems that occurred in the practice of everyday life. 


The people, for example, who owned those herds of sheep or goats had to be able to be sure that all the animals, with whom they had left in the morning to the meadow, returned to the cage in the evening.


Those who stored tools or weapons, or who had supervised the food stocks of the Community, had to be able 


to verify whether the number of foods or weapons or tools were still the same as when they left them in storage. 


And those who were enemies with their neighbors will have been worried when it came to an armed expedition, and have wanted to know if they could still have the same number of soldiers.


The people who lived from barter had also to be able to estimate which amount of food or other merchandise they had to exchange at what quantity..


But what to do when you can't count, when the concept of number has not yet emerged in your brain?


There still exist tribes in remote places that can not count. Their way of "counting" is: one, two,..... many.


How did the prehistoric man know, that the same number of sheep as yesterday enter his cave for the night?


He invented an ingenious solution. He sat at the entrance of his cave and every time a sheep entered the cave he scratched a marking in a bone or stick.


The next day his finger moved to the next marking on the bone, whenever a sheep entered the cave. 


In that way, he could check if he missed some sheep or if there was one more, a new lamb for instance.


Probably without knowing it consciously he used the principle of mutual relationship or the principle of proportionality.


the Ishango bone is a bone tool, dated to the Upper Paleolithic era, around 18,000 to 20,000 BC.  


It is a dark brown length of bone, the fibula of a baboon. It has a series of tally marks carved in three columns running the length of the tool.


I read an article, which explained that this was not just a simple tally stick but contains all kinds of possible mathematical interpretations.


How and when it happened that man moved from the tally stick to the abstract concept of number,


is as big a mystery as to how and when the humanoid primate moved from instinct-driven animal to self-conscious being.


Thank you for your attention again.....

The Discussion

[13:17] herman Bergson: A first step on the road of knowledge

[13:17] CB Axel: I suppose we started giving numbers names so we could stop carrying ape fibulas around.

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we have an inbuilt sense for quantity and quantitative relations id say

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but many animals have that too, u can learn a parrot to count for ex

[13:18] herman Bergson: It is not that simple Bejiita....

[13:19] CB Axel: Instead of pointing to the marks on a bone or stick we could tell someone we were bartering with that we'd trade them a certain number of sheep for whatever.

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the really interesting thing is that mathematics is sort of the language of nature, it never lies, if u can calculate it its true

[13:19] herman Bergson: Some animals are able to discern quantities as long as the objects are less then 6

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the higgs boson is the most striking example of this, it was just a calculation and then they ran the accelerator and BAM surely it was there! just as they had calculated 

[13:20] herman Bergson: Besides that we have no good eye for quantity....

[13:20] herman Bergson: A stack of plates....are those 12 plates, 15 plates?

[13:20] herman Bergson: We aren't able to see that

[13:20] herman Bergson: I read that our visual max is seeing 4 objects as a quantity

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also computers rely 100% on math and since they can represent colors sound ect its also a proof that everythibng can be turned into and be described with a mathematical  expression

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the very word computer mean literarily calculator or counter

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and was used 10000s of years befor the machine was invented

[13:21] herman Bergson: But exactly THAT is the magic Bejiita.....from a philosophical point of view...

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its amazing stuff for sure

[13:22] herman Bergson: We can count objects if we have developed the abstract concept of number.....

[13:22] herman Bergson: But the next step is more exciting.....

[13:22] herman Bergson: By manipulating the numbers we can predict what will be the outcome...

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:23] herman Bergson: not only in the calculation but also what it will be in reality....thence we can build a bridge that will not collapse

[13:24] herman Bergson: We can calculate where the Mars lander will land....

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then fly helicopter with it there

[13:24] herman Bergson: Phythagoras ascribed some mystic features to this observation

[13:25] herman Bergson: I myself still don't understand how the world can be mathimatical, while mathematics is a pure creation of our brain

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but fact is its true

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): EVERYTHING can be described with math

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so its the natures own language

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): universes own language

[13:26] herman Bergson: question about it.....but how must we understand the relation between reality and this brain product of ours?

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i guess math and numbers is our interpretation of it, an interpretation that works 100%

[13:28] herman Bergson: there must be some relation between the fact that we can count objects

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we created the system but its based on everything around us and how it relates

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all things

[13:29] herman Bergson: But when Pythagoras says a2 + b2 - c2.....there is no empirical base for that

[13:30] herman Bergson: But when you draw a triangle with a 90 degree fits

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but how did he discover that?

[13:30] herman Bergson: The Babylonians already had discover it....

[13:31] oola Neruda: many things require an object or whatever that can be quantified... and a predictable possible answer... the numbers do not work in a vacuums

[13:31] herman Bergson: me..^_^

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with pi, although thats a bit simpler, someone divided diameter with circumference and voilla

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then we created supercomputers to get as many decimals as possible for no real meaning

[13:31] oola Neruda: data

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): other then it's a cult number

[13:32] herman Bergson: I think numbers work in a vaccum without any object related to them oola....

[13:32] herman Bergson: a lot of theoretical mathematics  is like that

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:32] oola Neruda: yes... but that is not the entire process...

[13:32] oola Neruda: a goal... something to be measured or discussed etc

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like how they decided there MUST be a higgs field!

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then they proved it

[13:33] herman Bergson: The question could it related to an empirical process?

[13:33] theo Velde is online.

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but was just theory first

[13:33] oola Neruda: well said

[13:33] oola Neruda: emperical process

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa yes

[13:33] herman Bergson: I still haven't figure out an answer.....

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): connected to an object or not 1+1 is always 2

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): except in politics lol

[13:34] herman Bergson: based on the principles of arithmetic yes

[13:35] herman Bergson: You con't need objects for the calculation

[13:35] oola Neruda: think quantum theory.... and its relationship to math

[13:35] oola Neruda: something to put data to

[13:36] oola Neruda: you need to be able to measure or imagine

[13:36] herman Bergson: what I find fascinating is that tenth of thousands of years ago man began to use his brain in a mathematical way

[13:36] herman Bergson: we can register it, but I see no way to explain it

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa indeed its amazing stuff

[13:37] herman Bergson: So...maybe this something interesting for you to ponder about during this weekend ^_^

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): easy to explain one way but almost impossible another

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): almost like magic

[13:37] oola Neruda: early math was very functional... useful... needed

[13:38] oola Neruda: like the sheep that needed to be counted

[13:38] oola Neruda: NEEDED

[13:38] herman Bergson: In the early stage of mankind they weren't counted....

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wel its what enables me to turn a CAD drawing into JD coasters using a machine

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:39] herman Bergson: they were compared with the carves in a stick

[13:39] oola Neruda: by name...

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that one needs improovement though

[13:39] oola Neruda: no... but kept track of

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:39] herman Bergson: yes

[13:40] herman Bergson: Next time we may pay attention to what part our fingers played in this whole process ^_^

[13:41] herman Bergson: For now I think we are done counting :-)

[13:41] CB Axel: Very interesting.

[13:41] herman Bergson: Unless you still have that final question or remark

[13:41] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we are down for counting!

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so lets count some plupps!

[13:41] herman Bergson: Count me out Bejiita ^_^

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as a final

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum: interesting! thank you Herman and class

[13:41] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation.....:-)

[13:42] herman Bergson: Class dismissed......

[[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u are coming!

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:42] herman Bergson: lol

[13:42] herman Bergson: can count on me Bejiita ^_^

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

920: Language and linguistics.....

 Nothing is so obvious as language. It is part of our daily existence but we are usually not aware of it. 

Although the Mesopotamians from approximately 3200 BC. could write, the study of language, collecting, analyzing and interpreting language data only starts around 1600 BC in Babylonia. 


But that is still a thousand years earlier than anywhere else in the world. Linguistics is a diverse area with many theories, 


but you can ask the question, are there language phenomena that are recognized by all linguists and who apply to all languages? 


The phenomenon of discontinuous relationships is a serious candidate. 


Homo Sapiens starts searching for patterns in the language and around 1600 BC he discovered this phenomenon. 


Let me explain this phenomenon on the basis of a sentence: "The dog on the hill barks" In this sense, there is a connection 


between 'dog' and 'bark' and not between 'hill' and 'bark' although these last two words are adjacent, so 'continuous. 


Nevertheless, no speaker of English does not catch the sense wrong. One could say that this is because semantically a hill cannot bark. 


But that doesn't matter, because even if we take a sentence such as: "The young dog next to the old dog barks" then "barks" is only related to "the young dog" and not "the old dog." 


Apparently, relations do not have to be adjacent to relations between words in a sentence, such as here between subject and saying, but can also be discontinuous. 


What is more, relationships within a sense can extend almost randomly, such as in the sense 'the dog under the tree next to the house on the hill barks.' 


This phenomenon is therefore rightly considered one of the most important characteristics of human language, not only in English, 


but in all known languages, relationships between words and between phrases can be discontinuous.


Language is an abstraction of reality. It literally describes what we see. We see the young and old dog side by side. It is an image on our retina, a whole. 


And one way or another we succeed in creating words in which that image is described, while in that sentence the two dogs as on our retina are not adjacent to each other. 


The continuity of the image opposite the discontinuity in the language.


It now appears that this special feature of language is first described in Babylonia around 1600 BC, but not between words in a sentence but between parts of a word.


In Babylonia, it was about discontinuous patterns within words The circumstances under which the Babylonian study of language came about are comparable to what will later occur elsewhere in the world. 


The Babylonians wanted to save old literature that was written in an extinct language. In Babylonia, this old literature was not written in their own Akkadian language 


but in the Sumerian, such as the famous Gilgamesh epic from the 21st century BC. 


During the third millennium BC, there was a cultural symbiosis between the Sumerians and the Akkadians,


in which there was a major impact of  Sumerian on Akkadian language, especially in the field of pronunciation and loan words. Furthermore, the two languages ​​were not related to each other. 


During the Babylonian period, around 2000 BC, the Akkadian slowly but surely replaced the Sumerian language. 


The Babylonians, however, wanted to preserve the knowledge of Sumerian because this language was used in ceremonial, literature and scientific works. 


Where should the Babylonians begin if they wanted to save a language, which wasn't their own language? A dictionary was seen as the first requirement. 


But the use of words in their context should also be described, both in the Sumerian and in Babylonian, so that they could serve as a translation aid. 


In addition, the conjugations and compositions of words had to be registered in both languages, the so-called morphology..


What the Babylonians discovered as a linguistic phenomenon is still up to date in linguistics, the discontinuous relationship. 


It is interesting that the phenomenon is described on the clay tablets, but no further explanation is given. 


They also discovered the phenomenon that proverbs and standard expressions cannot be translated literally. 


In English, you have the expression "It is Raining Cats and Dogs". A literal translation into Dutch would work on the smile muscles, while in Dutch we also have our ways. 


We say "Het regent pijpenstelen", (It is raining pipe stems) where you should think of that long 17th-century pottery pipes to understand the expression, but the expression is untranslatable.


Babylonian linguistics is unique. As far as known, in a thousand years nowhere else in the world appears some study into regularities and irregular in language.


Thank you for your attention again.....

The Discussion

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): crash:(

[13:21] CB Axel: wb, Beertje.

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa wb

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): dankjewel

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the cats and dogs thing we have in Sweden also

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): "Det regnar hundar o katter"

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's raining cats and dogs Bejiita?

[13:22] CB Axel: Raining pipe stems makes more sense to me than cats and dogs. :)

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:22] herman Bergson: The amazing thing here is that 36 centuries ago people already saw the relation between language and reality

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): raining pipe stems sounds like something a plumber would say

[13:23] herman Bergson: Indeed CB :-)

[13:24] herman Bergson: Language depicts reality, but the words aren't in the order the objects are in reality and yet we have no problem to understand

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): context

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): whan we call grammar

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what

[13:25] herman Bergson: Another interesting thing is that it took a thousand years before people again began to think about linguistics

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:26] herman Bergson: this completely different from mathematics an astronomy for instance

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why took it so long?

[13:26] herman Bergson: But the purpose stayed the same......saving a dieing language

[13:27] herman Bergson: I have no idea, Beeertje?-)

[13:27] herman Bergson: Maybe because the Akkadian/Sumerian problem was a special situation....kind of incidental occurrence

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, could be

[13:28] oola Neruda: it is interesting that very young children can catch on...

[13:28] oola Neruda: learn the language and grammar

[13:28] CB Axel: I think our brains are hardwired from birth to accept language.

[13:28] herman Bergson: the Greek had there own language and alphabet....

[13:29] CB Axel: Any language

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have to be like that and then that ability vanishes

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes CB, I think so too

[13:29] herman Bergson: You may even say it in a more abstract way....

[13:29] CB Axel: I think the more languages a child hears, the easier it will be for them to learn new languages.

[13:30] CB Axel: They have to get the different sounds stored in their brains,

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): might be

[13:30] herman Bergson: Our brain is hardwired to be able to represent sensory experiences by symbols

[13:30] oola Neruda: the Maya ... had a really abstract manner of recording their language

[13:30] herman Bergson: And reason based on those symbols

[13:30] oola Neruda: and the Chinese is based on pictograms

[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes oola

[13:31] CB Axel: I remember hearing about a language that had 2 words that sound alike to anyone who didn't grow up hearing those 2 words, but there as something about how they were said that natives could tell the difference.

[13:31] herman Bergson: This brings us in fact back to the concept of patterns and our ability to formulate underlying principles

[13:31] CB Axel: They had grown up hearing the difference, so they could hear it easily.

[13:32] herman Bergson: Chinese has 5 different ways to pronounce a character sometimes and every way of pronouncing conveys another meaning

[13:33] CB Axel: Yes. Chinese is fascinating that way.

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess things like programming languages are somewhat made like that as well however in all of the ones i know the basic structore is the same

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if this is that to that else that wash rinse repeat

[13:33] oola Neruda: I am interested in how they formed symbols to record what they wanted kept...

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats just the base structure but explains maybee why i have so easy picking these up one after another

[13:34] CB Axel: I find that fascinating, too, oola.

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes oola, a fascinating question.....

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa yes

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how did that start

[13:34] oola Neruda: go back to the cave man

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the alphabets

[13:34] herman Bergson: Chinese with characters, Egyptians with hieroglyphs, Greeks and Romans with an alphabet

[13:35] herman Bergson: Sumerians with cuniform

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for example i can pick up japanese a lot but i cant read japanese cause characters look all different and are images rather then letters

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cant directly interpret that

[13:35] oola Neruda: yes... images first

[13:35] herman Bergson: It is so amazing and a big riddle

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but they obviously can

[13:35] CB Axel: I'm the same way with Arabic, Bejiita.

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and both look cool surely but i cant read them

[13:36] oola Neruda: image/symbol

[13:36] herman Bergson: japanese uses three scripts.....teh Kanji (chinese characters) , hiragana and katakana

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting is our numbers are arabic but i dont think arabic numbers are written this way or are they

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have not tried decipher arabic script

[13:37] herman Bergson: the hiragana is a sylable script

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you can read arabic CB, the numbers of the clock fi are arabic symbols

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there are 3 of them

[13:37] CB Axel: Not  if you have a clock with Roman numerals. LOL

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): funny americans:)

[13:37] herman Bergson: That  is good for your Latin CB :-)

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well TYHAT i can actually read cause i grew up with one such clock in the kitchen

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so learned how to read roman numbers at least up to 12

[13:38] CB Axel: Americans were asked if we should use Arabic numbers and many said NO! Arabic isn't our language.

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): OMG

[13:38] CB Axel: The American educational system is an embarrassment.

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so you always write numbers in roman symbols?

[13:38] herman Bergson: Brilliant :-)

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YES

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ITS ONLY THEM AND THE REST OF THE WORLD DOESNT EXIST IT SEEMS

[13:39] CB Axel: I'm guessing most of those people can't read Roman numerals either

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats strange (and selfish9

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:40] herman Bergson: At least we have seen today that homo sapiens already wondered about language in an early stage

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for example they think Sweden is the place where they make clocks and where the LHC is

[13:40] CB Axel: Arabs gave us algebra, and I do resent them for that. Algebra is hard. LOL

[13:40] CB Axel: LOL, Bejiita.

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol CB

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well sure we also have an accelerator but its caled MAX iV

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes algebra is tricky stuff

[13:41] CB Axel: That reminds me! Fermi Lab had a bison calf born there on the 24th. The first of the season. :)

[13:41] herman Bergson: they confuse Sweden with Switserland has the same S at the start

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but can be quite interesting if u get into irt

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how it works

[13:41] CB Axel: Sw! So it's even harder. :)

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes they have bisons out there indeed

[13:41] herman Bergson: yes...very confusing CB :-)))

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly herman

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but wonder if they then place it correct on the map

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or if its just the name

[13:42] CB Axel: But then, when I was a little child I got Michigan, Minnesota, and Wisconsin mixed up all the time.

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if they know geography other then the USA map

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is

[13:43] CB Axel: Bejiita, they don't even know US geography.

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:43] CB Axel: US education is a joke.

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:43] CB Axel: Yet, we allow those people to vote. :(

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sure it was not my strong subject in school but

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i know my way around the world for sure

[13:44] CB Axel: I'm terrible with the southern hemisphere.

[13:44] herman Bergson: Well...let's not begin a geography class here :-)

[13:44] CB Axel: :)

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:45] herman Bergson: I think it is good enough to see how man got fascinated by language

[13:45] oola Neruda: necessity

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im actually terying to model australia in Unreal, (the maps are free and have a work buddy who have lived there so downloaded them)

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and it looks great

[13:46] herman Bergson: The more you think about it, the more fascinating it becomes....our use of language and its consequences

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and we hardly think about it

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its just there for us

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why not use 1 language?   dutch f. i. it's easier that way

[13:47] herman Bergson: That is the point Bejiita....we take language as so obvious....

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but if i for ex would try speak Netherlands it would be a different story

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): although i can snatch up a word or 2

[13:47] CB Axel: Just look at my confusion about what being a Liberal means in Europe as opposed to in the US.

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's easy Bejiita

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a bit similar to german i think

[13:47] herman Bergson: Even that is an interesting issue Beertje......those huge differences in languages....

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no not at all

[13:47] herman Bergson: Where did they come from

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:48] oola Neruda: the deep past when people were less able to intermingle

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): react to Bejiita's it's very different from german

[13:48] herman Bergson: I spent more than 10 years on is easier to learn than Polish for instance...

[13:48] oola Neruda: stayed local

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): polis is a pain in the b...

[13:49] herman Bergson: Oh my yes....spelling is a hell.....

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a tongue twister language although it sounds stylish

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but so do japanese

[13:49] herman Bergson: I gave up after one lesson

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): diendobre...

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i get Japanese much easier then chinese which indeed is just TJING TJONG to me

[13:50] herman Bergson: I spent more than 1200 days without missing a day on learning Spanish :-)

[13:50] oola Neruda: I find pictographs and petroglyphs more interesting than the spoken "symbols"

[13:50] herman Bergson: So now I can read the Spanish newspaper

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's awesome Herman

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i learned english here in secondlife

[13:51] herman Bergson: I wonder how the read these pictographs oola

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my friends taught me

[13:51] oola Neruda: it is not the same everywhere

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and now german:)))

[13:51] theo Velde is offline.

[13:51] oola Neruda: lots of "local" stuff

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats nice

[13:52] herman Bergson: Language is a fascinating subject, that's for sure

[13:52] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-))

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep!

[13:52] oola Neruda: but the blank space between when they were made and by whom... and now... make them more difficult

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it seems to be a sort of organic process

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): laguage is a living thing, it changes

[13:53] oola Neruda: unless they are didactic... like hieroglyphs

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my ancestors spoke a hole other language dutch that I do now

[13:53] CB Axel: I  was thinking about that, too, Beertje.

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): typost is my favorite;)))

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not like say programming languages where there is a specific time and a specific creator (but also these are VERY new in relation to our history, not earlier then say 1950s)

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but they also have a pattern

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i learned old dutch, to read the old books from the past

[13:54] CB Axel: Shakespeare is almost a completely different language than the English that is used now.

[13:54] herman Bergson: I had to learn to read what was called "Middelnederlands", the Dutch from the 16th century

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's very difficult to read those old frases

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed old english is way different

[13:54] herman Bergson: Same issue there CB

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes me too Herman

[13:54] CB Axel: And Chaucer is even harder to understand.

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a complete different language

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): isnt it a bit like say Irish (wichh i also dont understand :)9

[13:55] CB Axel: Irish is completely different.

[13:56] herman Bergson: Try to understand Portuguese when you understand Spanish....same problem

[13:56] CB Axel nods

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): soulds a but like pirates language ARRR HEYEEEEEE GIVEEE THA RUM!

[13:56] herman Bergson: And it all began about 3000 years BC :-)

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont):

[13:56] CB Axel: :)

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh why did I said that! now i want rum!

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:57] oola Neruda: learning to use the symbols that artists use...particularly abstract ones... is another language in itself...

[13:57] herman Bergson: It still amazes me

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its yummy

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa

[13:57] herman Bergson: ok...enough for today.....

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa time flies

[13:57] oola Neruda: easy example... the reaction to red ...... or reaction to black.... or soft shapes... or firm shapes... etc etc etc

[13:57] herman Bergson: Let's get ready for Thursday :-)

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and its time to learn the

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): even here in the Netherlands are languages not everyone can understand, and we live in a smaal country:)

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): * PLUPP *

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): language

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa u have dialects too

[13:58] herman Bergson: Tomorrow is vaccination day for me....!

[13:58] herman Bergson: Finally :-)

[13:58] CB Axel: Yes. I need subtitles when I listen to some US accents on TV. :)

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some in Sweden are worse then danish to understand

[13:58] CB Axel: Yay, Herman!

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAREYAOOOOOOO

[13:59] herman Bergson: So...on Thursday there will be standing here a completely different man :-)

[13:59] herman Bergson: More or less covid proof :-))

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): one with a sore arm:)

[13:59] CB Axel: Do you know which  one you'll be getting?

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok

[13:59] herman Bergson: yes...Pfeizer is the flavor of the day :-)

[14:00] CB Axel: Is this your second dose?

[14:00] herman Bergson: no is the first one :-)

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[14:00] CB Axel: Oh. Then you still have a month to go before you're fully immunized.

[14:00] herman Bergson: I already survived a whole year CB, so I don't worry too much about that

[14:01] CB Axel: You'll get the 2nd one in 3 - 4 weeks and it takes about 2 weeks after that for your immune system to be ready. :)

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have not felt any symptoms either yet

[14:01] herman Bergson: June 2 I'll get the second one

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but also im careful around others

[14:01] CB Axel: Yes, but I can get together with other vaccinated people now. :)

[14:02] CB Axel: That seems early. The CDC recommends at least 3 weeks between the shots.

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even i feel comfortable still around say my street dance buddies

[14:02] CB Axel: I got mine 4 weeks after the 1st.

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and other friends, i know where i have them more or less

[14:03] herman Bergson: Let me release you :-)

[14:03] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ....^_^

[1[14:03] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[14:03] CB Axel: CU all Thursday. :)

[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum: very interesting again! ty Herman and class :-) 

[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):