Saturday, November 23, 2019

814: The Free Market Dream.........

In response to my lecture of last Tuesday, I received the following message from one of those present then:
[13:55] A Student in class: (Saved Tue Nov 19 23:46:52 2019)Hi mr herman! It was  very impressive, because almost never, you have far left and far right ppl in one room debating!
My first thought was "Thank you for the compliment, dear student", but my second thought was..."wow, this is a really sad observation."
Can't people have interesting conversations and debates about differences of opinion anymore?
When you look at the UK with its Brexit or the USA  with its Reps vs. Dems controversy, you really would begin to believe that that is the case indeed.
However, we still can. This is not a political rally or something like that, but it is The Philosophy Class. Our goal is to wonder about things.
To investigate arguments which support opinion A or B, to listen and weigh, not a battle to get your opinion applauded as the right one.
Being right is not interesting at all here. Investigating why you could be right and under what conditions, that is the point here.
If there is anything that we have inherited from the 20th century, it is the unwillingness to enter into an honest debate with each other.
The most painful example today is the political situation in the United States. Don't think that this has anything to do with the impeachment process.
The real partisan differences started already in the 1980s, when Reagan and Thatcher embraced the free market economics and a smaller roll for the government.
quote - "In the aftermath of a potentially demoralizing 2008 electoral defeat, when the Republican Party seemed widely discredited,
the emergence of the Tea Party provided conservative activists with a new identity funded by Republican business elites and reinforced by a network of conservative media sources." - end quote -
Business was funding this movement and why was that? Something remarkable happened in those years.
Of course, the banks and financial institutions were pointed at because of their risky behavior and greed,
but if you believe, that something has changed fundamentally in the financial markets of today....hardly, it is business as usual.
What changed was the attitude of the people regarding politics. The politicians were blamed for the financial crisis.
They had not sufficiently supported the economy of the free market. 
That is what the 20th century has brought us. Everything is expressed in economical terms. You can be as immoral as you like as a political leader,
but when you boast proudly about the thousands of jobs you have created, about the growth of the economy, everything else seems to be forgotten.
But cracks arise in free market thinking. Slowly we begin to discover, that we have to make a choice:
do we want to live in a society where a free market is a tool, which can be useful when it is applicable,
or do we want to live in a market society, where everything is for sale, not only cars and houses, but also education, healthcare or social relations?
Thank you for your attention again...

Quote was from: Perspectives on Politics, March 2011 | Vol. 9/No. 1 "The Tea Party and the Remaking of Republican Conservatism" (Vanessa Williamson, Theda Skocpol, and John Coggin)  

The Discussion
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well I prefer the fort option but it is the second one who rules at the moment
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): first
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly
[13:21] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita
[13:22] herman Bergson: And in the Netherlands things are falling apart due to, social care, police, teachers and education....
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same here
[13:22] herman Bergson: All subjects that are based on social solidarity and not on resources and demand
[13:24] herman Bergson: But there are signs that even economists begin to see the irrational assumptions of their theories
[13:24] herman Bergson: The self regulating effects of the markets
[13:25] herman Bergson: the never ending growth of the economy
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and when we build a hospital here all tax money is wasted onto consulting and the place is so badly built toilet water drips into the sterile room and water flows out from the bathrooms into the corridor cause they built the floors tilted the wrong direction
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its crazy
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I talk about the Karolikska Hospital
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): of course
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Karolinska
[13:25] herman Bergson: that sounds bad, Bejiita
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:26] herman Bergson: We had a few parking buildings collapsing here :-)
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): gladly there was nobody in
[13:26] herman Bergson: no....
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lucky that
[13:26] herman Bergson: it was
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they want to build cheeper and faster
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and that's a problem
[13:27] herman Bergson: And the main goal is to make as much money as possible
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes of course
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also now that hospital is getting rid of all personnel because the money is out, ta money being puured into a black hole and a huge wreck is all left
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is incompetence!
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): from politicians
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with our tax money
[13:28] herman Bergson: But what we begin to notice is that the gap between poor and rich is growing in this money world
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hospitals have to make money to service
[13:29] herman Bergson: bizarre
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well bad management a la Dilbert id say
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its just like in that series and the politicians who made the decisions are the toppy haired boss
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lot's of our ppl have to go to places were they can get free food
[13:30] herman Bergson: I find that shameful....these food banks....
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes me too
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it should not be like that
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but we need it
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:30] herman Bergson: That this has to happen  here
[13:30] herman Bergson: Indeed....that is the worst part of the story...that we need these places indeed
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the cause of all this?
[13:32] herman Bergson: and the right wing politicians kling to their beliefs in markets
[13:32] herman Bergson: The cause of not being able to buy food, Beertje
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, but why do these ppl have little money?
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): some have a job, too
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the bosses take all the money and those "on the floor" get nothing next to
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats why
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the shareholders
[13:34] herman Bergson: Well one of the big causes is the government itself.....havent you heard of all these debts, people have, because of the tax bureau
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:35] herman Bergson: A lot of people are in debts...
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if you have dept, you have to pay much more the next time
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's a never ending circle
[13:36] herman Bergson: yes and the official administration is the biggest creditor (schuldeiser) in the Netherlands
[13:36] oola Neruda: Climate change is contested by the gas, oil and coal companies because of MONEY..... they want to continue being able to sell their product.... even if it is destroying our planet and the future................GREED.....SELF INTEREST.....
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes oola....this obsession with making money
[13:37] herman Bergson: growth....
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm that too, I suspect that they actually delay/shot down existing ideas that would have gotten us electric cars since long
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least I have heard many such stories
[13:37] herman Bergson: though a self sufficient economy is possible without this growth
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah...i don't have gas in my house, I use Induction to cook, but the prize is based on gas and that they will raise very high to get ppl of the gas....
[13:38] oola Neruda: frankly, oil is an important part of what is going on in the Ukraine..... they have a large oil fiels that Juliani and his friends (Trump....?)  want to drill the oil there
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): starting even more wars and killing even more people there as a result
[13:38] herman Bergson: Indeed oola
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:38] oola Neruda: they pressured the new president into leasing their oil fields (belong to the govt) to HIS FRIEND...FOR 50 YEARS
[13:39] herman Bergson: Like Trump boasted that he had got the oilfields in Syria occupied
[13:39] oola Neruda: at which time they will have drained the oil
[13:39] oola Neruda: yes
[13:39] oola Neruda: what is important?
[13:39] oola Neruda: MONEY
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh yes
[13:40] herman Bergson: Unfortunately we have to discover that the 20th century left us with the wrong economic theories...
[13:41] herman Bergson: and it got even worse when in 1989 the Iron Curtain fell apart......
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the greed is growing
[13:41] herman Bergson: \o/ neoliberalsim has won,, they all cheered
[13:41] oola Neruda: BLOWOUT by Rachael Maddow explains the history of oil.... and Russia has their very deep past and present in that area
[13:42] herman Bergson: Indeed oola
[13:42] herman Bergson: Must be an interesting book
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:42] oola Neruda: Mindf*cked by Wylie is another eye opener book
[13:42] oola Neruda: about Cambridge Annalytical.....
[13:42] herman Bergson: Wylie Geist?
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well the entire economy and money focus is a non stoppable blowout now it seems
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like Deepwater Horizon
[13:43] oola Neruda: Christopher Wylie
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): BAUUUUM!
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and someone have to stop this blowout
[13:43] herman Bergson: The future will tell, Bejiita
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:43] oola Neruda: they use every mind bending way of influencing people to get their outcome
[13:44] oola Neruda: basicly advertizing psychology.... but big time
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes Oola
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes, I heard amazing stories about lobbyists and how they work
[13:44] oola Neruda: and stategy of bribes to the leaders to let them get away with .....
[13:45] oola Neruda whispers: Steve
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): with what?
[13:45] herman Bergson: all for the benefit of the company, not of the people of a country
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that looked like my buggy code at the moment
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Herman
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its slavery
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): modern slavery
[13:46] oola Neruda: Steve Bammpm os behind that.... his idea for the US was to stir up every avenue of disagreement possible
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lkajl;agh[opgia..what do you mean by this Oola?
[13:46] herman Bergson: Well....I guess we are in a revolutionary mindset.....ready for the weekend,,,,^_^
[13:46] oola Neruda: stoking the neo nazies....
[13:46] oola Neruda: race relations..... evangelicals.... etc etc
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a revolution is needed for sure
[13:47] oola Neruda: poke all of them and they will 'DEFEND their ways...... Immigration is one of them
[13:47] herman Bergson: SO, I'd say....cheer up and enjoy the weekend :-)
[13:47] oola Neruda: and Trump is in on it
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed lets hope for a great weekend
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:48] herman Bergson: Un less you still want to save the world....thank you again for participating here :-)
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa cu next time
[13:48] herman Bergson: can do  both of course ^_^
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:48] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): going to a event
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): baking apfelstudel in the week-end with my 2 grandsons:)
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mmm yum
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)))))
[13:48] oola Neruda: another book....... OIL..POWER....WAR
[13:48] herman Bergson: good plan Beertje
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the best:)
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have to check these
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu soon again
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): (talking like Trump)
[13:49] herman Bergson: There are published a lot of books these days in the US....
[13:49] herman Bergson: Looks like every known official or journalist writes a book about something

[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class!it is all sad, but you're all great! :-)

Thursday, November 21, 2019

813: The Turning Point....

After World War II there was a general belief in rebuilding society in Europe. The most important feeling was, that we had to do this together.
This is the basis of that special feeling of solidarity, that people shared with each other, It was not about personal profits, but about the general welfare.
Consequently the economics of Keynes were the dominant approach in the period 1945 -1980.
Keynesian economics is a theory that says the government should increase demand to boost growth. 
Keynesians believe consumer demand is the primary driving force in an economy. As a result, the theory supports expansionary fiscal policy. 
Expansionary fiscal policy is when the government expands the money supply in the economy using budgetary tools
to either increase spending or cut taxes, both of which provide consumers and businesses with more money to spend. 

Its main tools are government spending on infrastructure, unemployment benefits, and education. A drawback is that overdoing Keynesian policies increases inflation.
We are a philosophy class here, and not a class in economics, so let's ignore details and try to see the quintessence here.
As I understand it, the government uses its income from taxes to steer the ins and outs of society for the benefit of everyone.
And that is the critical point....these taxes. The painful characteristic of these taxes was, that they were progressive.
That meant, that, as was a slogan in (I hardly dare to use the word) socialist politics: The strongest shoulders should carry the heaviest loads....
This idea was at the basis of the development of the welfare state as we know it in Europe with, as a result, 
medic care for everyone, independent of income, for instance, or free access to any level of education. If you couldn't afford it, you were entitled to government grants.
In 1960 Friedrich Hayek, we discussed him in previous lectures, published "The Constitution of Liberty" in 1960.
Just to mention, from his past he was a he was a fierce opponent of the communist planned economy.
And from that point of view he also was opposed to Keynesian economic and in 1960 he stated, that the concept of 'social justice', the root of the belief in social solidarity, was a myth.
For Hayek, the freedom to live at your own discretion on your own land was the ultimate good, provided you don't violate the rights of others:
the credo of the ultimate social and economical individualist and the end of social solidarity. And keep in mind, this was just 1960.
Of course nothing is made for eternity, so neither was Keynesian economics. There were problems with unemployment and inflation in the 1970s.
I myself experienced this personally. I had to write more than 120 letters of application to finally get a job after my graduation from the university.
And then came the turning point.It was 1980. In the world of politics we got Ronald Reagan and Margret Thatcher.
In the world of economics we got Rose and Milton Friedman. They already published "Capitalism and Freedom" in 1962.
In 1980 they published "Free to Choose". The titles of their books are already telling. If not to you, we'll discuss this in the next lecture...
Thank you for your attention....
The Discussion
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:21] herman Bergson: thought that comes up to me now.....
[13:21] Al Michigan: /making  lotsa notes
[13:22] herman Bergson: all these people that plead for this individualistic liberalism and capitalism...Ayn Rand, Hayek, Friedman....alll refugees from communist countries....
[13:22] herman Bergson: A coincidence???
[13:24] Al Michigan: i think  their opinion was helping some ppl, that wanted less taxes
[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes yes.....
[13:24] Max Chatnoir: When they all don't take into account are real differences in opportunity.
[13:24] Al Michigan: and that these ppl  shoved their opinions in the mouths
[13:24] Al Michigan: abusing them for their own motives
[13:24] PearlsOh: It's weird that capitalism has ended up as controlling as communism, Google & the like are so rich they can call shots with governments and social engineer us with punishment and reward, reminds me of Stalin and Soviets
[13:24] herman Bergson: But my main point of today is that we have LOST a legacy instead of receiving one from the 20th century here....
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes PearsOH...that is an issue
[13:25] Max Chatnoir: Keynes?
[13:25] Al Michigan: freedom?
[13:26] herman Bergson: What we have lost is social stand for  each other
[13:26] Al Michigan: yes
[13:26] Max Chatnoir: Ah, yes.
[13:26] herman Bergson: Today we seem to stand only for ourselves
[13:26] PearlsOh: Individualism is kind of fake, it's never real.  Sometimes they let the facade slip & sometimes they keep it up, we're all enslaved in various ways to the systems
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Ayn Rand started this as I get it, the creator of the egoism era
[13:27] herman Bergson: She was indeed important  Bejiita
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): egoism and grreed + the rich companies avoiding tax by placing their moey on Cayman islands or some other place
[13:27] Al Michigan: especially with this globalists, who  will use and abuse everyone and everything to reach this goal, getting rid off any form off nationalism or local culture, the make ppl helpless,especially now they started to  censure the Internet
[13:27] PearlsOh: yes, they're the commies, Al, disgusting people
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also the governents including here in sweden wasting them on things like 500 million on consulting for a hospital (Karolinska) that is not even  built to code in any way
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a black hole for our tax money
[13:28] Max Chatnoir: Recently I saw an article (Sorry, I don't remember who wrote it) arguing for having more babies to support expansionist economics.
[13:28] herman Bergson: At this moment, my believe is that the world is mainly ruled by multinationals and money
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:29] Al Michigan: rump is waging war with money, tru...
[13:29] Al Michigan: trump
[13:29] herman Bergson: He is just a bussinessman...
[13:29] Al Michigan: or,... are we ruled by the billionairs
[13:29] herman Bergson: hello Belle
[13:29] oola Neruda: i just finished reading ...MINDFUCKED.... Steve Bannon is big at the beginning and still at the end.... pushing White supremecy... ....... and he is very a planned way....behind the division of people.... as a plan... A PLAN..... CAREFULLY WORKED OUT
[13:29] Al Michigan: you know the first trillionair is upcoming?
[13:30] herman Bergson: BINGO...all seats occupied :-)
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): running the US like a big company and potting the world on brink of WW3 by irritating dangerous guys around the world
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like Kim and Putin
[13:30] PearlsOh: Herman do you think censorship and enforced social control is about money?  Where does it come from
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he is playing with lions
[13:30] Al Michigan: huh,. no evil words off respected world leaders!
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)
[13:30] Al Michigan: i  agree , particle
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:31] Al Michigan: he plays with smart tigers
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least all seems stable, for now
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ....
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): will it remain so
[13:31] herman Bergson: Hold on...:-)
[13:31] herman Bergson: What censorship do you mean PearlsOh
[13:32] PearlsOh: People being punished, ie fired and so on for stuff like "racism " and "sexism"
[13:32] Al Michigan: herman,  thee internet giants are censoring conservative sounds
[13:32] herman Bergson: I don't see any relation with money...only with moral values
[13:33] herman Bergson: Are tehy, Al?
[13:33] herman Bergson: they
[13:33] Al Michigan: yes they are big time!
[13:33] PearlsOh: who's controlling these morals?  I know people accused of these perceived thought crimes who didn't do anything wrong.
[13:33] herman Bergson: Wait....
[13:33] Max Chatnoir: I don't see that.  They seem willing to take anybody's ad money.
[13:33] herman Bergson: YEs Max...
[13:33] Al Michigan: more and more news outlets off right  wing views are being censored
[13:34] herman Bergson: but I think we have to to discriminate here between the USA and Europe....
[13:34] oola Neruda: bannon and cambridge annalytical..... have been very carefully making changes ... to get more division
[13:34] PearlsOh: well we're global, it is general, but maybe USA has more freedom left?
[13:34] herman Bergson: For instance...white supremacy is a disease in the US...hardly there in Europe as attitude
[13:35] oola Neruda: we are loosing it
[13:35] herman Bergson: lost worldwide moral leadership already indeed, I'd say
[13:35] Max Chatnoir: I was surprised to see how much of it is still around.
[13:35] oola Neruda: nods
[13:35] CB Axel: There may not be white supremacy in Europe, but there is nationalism.
[13:36] Al Michigan: no i see indeed there is a massive censoring wave coming up in Europe,  because all rightwing alternative news wi ll be impossible in future, and so is even conservative news in the usa.
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes CB and racism too....but not in the Amrican way
[13:36] PearlsOh: What's wrong with Nationalism?
[13:36] Al Michigan: if you make a  posting with the tag: vote for trump, you ll be banned immedeastely.
[13:36] Max Chatnoir: Where?
[13:36] herman Bergson: Who banns you Al???
[13:36] CB Axel: I personally don't think we should censor white supremacists. I want to know who those people are so I can avoid them.
[13:36] Al Michigan: me/
[13:36] Al Michigan: it is now!
[13:37] PearlsOh: Someone, what's wrong with Nationalism?
[13:37] herman Bergson: I agree CB...let them show themselves
[13:37] herman Bergson: Depends PearlsOh....
[13:37] CB Axel: It's wrong, Pearl, when it'd "our nation only and all the others can go to hell."
[13:37] oola Neruda: correct
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:37] CB Axel: We all need each other and no one nation should be all powerful.
[13:37] Al Michigan: i have been  exploring the alt right sites, and the alt light sites. I do not see these ppl as more dangerous as antifa ppl, or  so  called  justice warrioirs or antifa  ppl.
[13:38] PearlsOh: Why, CB, why can't people have their countries?
[13:38] Belle (bellecharbon): Nationalism is a philosophy that pits nations against each other, where globalism encourages cooperation to solve global problems.
[13:38] herman Bergson: If Nationalism is used to create a WE against THEM atmosphere, then it is populist manipulation
[13:38] CB Axel: Because we're all on one Earth.
[13:38] Max Chatnoir: Yes, by creating fear of the not-us.
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, its a recipie for starting wars
[13:38] oola Neruda: manipulation....YES
[13:38] herman Bergson: You are more eloquent, Belle ^_^
[13:38] CB Axel: Pitting one nation against all the others helps no one.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nope
[13:39] PearlsOh: How does it pit people against each other?  Why not let people embrace their cultures, what is this push to force everyone to become one culture?
[13:39] PearlsOh: Isn't that anti life
[13:39] PearlsOh: and anti diversity?
[13:39] Al Michigan: but, i  do not see that in reality,  what i  see is like India and Pakistan , but nationalistic countries. they have war..... but about beliefs.
[13:39] herman Bergson: We NEED this concept of solidarity....worldwide...but so far it is idealistic and utopian
[13:39] Al Michigan: not about culture.
[13:39] Al Michigan: iran and irak are very nationalistoic, and so is turkey
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and they hate each other
[13:40] Al Michigan: but they fight about beliefs, the text off the holy  koran
[13:40] PearlsOh: Why do we need to be a globalist world nation Herman, are aliens coming or something?
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its like nitroglycerine waiting to explode in an all out war
[13:40] PearlsOh: Why can't we be ourselves?
[13:40] CB Axel: I don't mind different cultures. I enjoy different cultures, but in the US people don't want to help other countries. They want only to help the US.
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:40] Max Chatnoir: I think the beliefs are just an excuse to get God's imprimatur on our side.
[13:41] Max Chatnoir: We are the best because God says so.  right here.
[13:41] Al Michigan: cb axel, when did Mexico  ever helped usa?
[13:41] CB Axel: Then when people from a poorer country, one that the US has made poorer, want to come to the US they get jailed.
[13:41] Al Michigan: or canada?
[13:41] Belle (bellecharbon): Just as one person balances their personal interests with the needs of others, taking care of ourselves first, then helping others--there needs to be a balance of countries thinking of themselves and others where i think nationalism is skewed
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to Trump for ex there is only USA and all other nations can go F*CK themselves
[13:41] herman Bergson: No PearlsOH, because the multinationals and our industries are destroying this world simply to satisfy their shareholders and not the stakeholders
[13:41] Al Michigan: or peru?
[13:41] oola Neruda: one of the strategies is to just keep people off guard.... get people upset then, before they get their act together... throw them off kilter again...with new mischief
[13:41] Al Michigan: or germany?
[13:41] Al Michigan: or china?
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that kind if thinking
[13:41] Al Michigan: or russia?
[13:41] Al Michigan: but what there is another thingy!
[13:42] PearlsOh: Yes globalism sucks, Herman, so maybe it is a good idea to fight the social engenering that is trying to make us all one culture
[13:42] PearlsOh: they just get more control that way
[13:42] Al Michigan: the black ppl have their home lands, that  they claim, and the jews have their homeland that they claim, most ppl  have their home land, that they  claim, but when a white man in his own country say he want a home land too, where he is safe for the persecutions off other races, he is called a bigot, a racist and all, and that s not fair.
[13:43] CB Axel: I can't keep up with everyone talking at once, so I'm just going to sit out and read what you're all saying.
[13:43] herman Bergson: Take a moment to read Al's words
[13:43] oola Neruda: BRAVE NEW WORLD........1984
[13:43] oola Neruda: TWO BOOKS NOT TO BURN
[13:43] Al Michigan: i like to remember yo all, that the white ppl are the minority, world wide.
[13:43] PearlsOh: true, Al
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: The British Empire in its heyday had a LOT of homelands!
[13:44] Al Michigan: no max, it had only the UK
[13:44] herman Bergson frowns too
[13:44] PearlsOh: Are you wanting to punish White People for Britain, Max?
[13:44] Al Michigan: and that s al what they were left with when the stuff went south.
[13:44] herman Bergson: the homeland sounds like a kind of racial nationalism, AL?
[13:44] Al Michigan: where will the united nations go?
[13:44] Max Chatnoir: No, of course not.  I was just thinking about what the white "homeland" might be?
[13:45] Belle (bellecharbon): Max is referring to the days of the British Empire which was global but colonial
[13:45] PearlsOh: What's wrong with having a homeland though Herman, why does it seem racist to you?
[13:45] herman Bergson: all of Europe perhaps, Max? :-)
[13:45] Max Chatnoir: Not just Europe.
[13:45] Al Michigan: nonono, what about the united states?
[13:45] herman Bergson: All the whites in the US came from Europe though
[13:45] Al Michigan: us ppl will not be welcome in europe.
[13:45] oola Neruda: YES
[13:46] Max Chatnoir: Yes.
[13:46] Max Chatnoir: We started as immigrants.
[13:46] Al Michigan: US ppl are not welcome in europ, the US culture is not ..
[13:46] Al Michigan: how you call it
[13:46] Al Michigan: it wont fit.
[13:46] Max Chatnoir: My family was irish and French.
[13:46] herman Bergson: A moment....
[13:46] Belle (bellecharbon): I've been to Europe and felt wlcome, of course not in the last few years
[13:46] herman Bergson: Let me clarify.....
[13:47] Max Chatnoir: I think they were running from the potato famine.
[13:47] Belle (bellecharbon): and religious persecution
[13:47] herman Bergson: The concept of homeland is a bit odd....I guess  you'd better say, that people are entitled to their own CULTURE
[13:47] Belle (bellecharbon): and debt
[13:47] Max Chatnoir: If we hadn't had the revolutionary war, we'd still be Brits.
[13:47] Belle (bellecharbon): and because European nations wanted to establish colonies in the new world
[13:48] Max Chatnoir: Yes, that, too.  :-)
[13:48] herman Bergson whispers: I am just puzzled by finding a homeland for white people :_0
[13:48] Al Michigan: yes herman, that is true, but it is translated in the land  that had  cultivated it. An American in Amsterdam, really getting close to the pp, will  ralise the gap in culture is too big.
[13:48] PearlsOh: I don't get whats odd about having your own country?
[13:48] Max Chatnoir: Nothing, and pride in your culture is a good thing.
[13:49] Max Chatnoir: Just don't make it the only possible thing.
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed true Max
[13:49] herman Bergson: A country is just an historical creation with fictitious borders...a culture ignores borders
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): embrace your culture but don't hate other ones
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): culture
[13:49] Max Chatnoir: But I think we have drifted away from economics.
[13:49] Al Michigan: herman, every culture, every group off ppl  has the right to  claim his lands, to be his. why  wont white ppl not have that right?
[13:49] CB Axel: There is no one homeland for blacks, either. There were many tribes in Africa, but Europeans went into Africa and formed nations that didn't take into consideration those tribes and their rights.
[13:49] PearlsOh: No an country is owned land
[13:49] PearlsOh: by a people
[13:49] Max Chatnoir: If we'd stayed in our country of origin, we'd all still be in Africa.
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats also true
[13:50] herman Bergson: You are right, Max....
[13:50] herman Bergson: Nevertheless this is an interesting exchange of thoughts....
[13:50] Al Michigan: no max, i reject the ideas that we descend from africa, there is never found a proof off that ( the missing  link,)
[13:50] herman Bergson: huh? Al?
[13:50] oola Neruda: in a recent group chat... about immigration.... i said that only the Native Americans were the real citizens here.... the comeback to that was I WAS BORN HERE... I AM A CITIZEN.... they did not get what i had to say......
[13:50] Max Chatnoir: mitochondrial DNA/
[13:51] herman Bergson: Exactly Max
[13:51] CB Axel: Europeans took a chunk of the middle east and just gave it to Israel. Now I want the Jews to have a safe place to live, but you can't just take someone else's land and say, "OK. Now this is someone else's homeland."
[13:51] Al Michigan: hihihi, but look at this dna!
[13:51] PearlsOh: That argument is a bit fake though, many don't buy it the Africa thing, and even if it was true,, what is this problem with people having their own countries, religions and cultures with out being forced to take in others they may not want?
[13:52] theo Velde is offline.
[13:52] herman Bergson: We still live in an it is US or THEM world indeed PearlsOh
[13:52] oola Neruda: yes... CB
[13:52] Belle (bellecharbon): If the Palestinians wanted peace more than anything, they are surrounded by Arabian countries hey could have peace in.  The Jews have Israel and no place else to go, except possibly Arizona.
[13:52] CB Axel: Because all these nations are meaningless. They were all land stolen from others. The cultures were all mixed. We will, and should, continue to mix.
[13:53] PearlsOh: What's wrong with that thought Herman, the world isn't all peace, it is hostile.
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed CB and as u can see there have been constant war between Israel and Palestine whos land were taken from them
[13:53] Al Michigan: is it acceptable, to let  like black ppl scream , let's kill  some whites, but not let white ppl scream lets kill some black, while it is their  own country? while at the same time let's kill some blacks is also allowed in black countries? but then again not allowed to  say let s kill  some blacks if you are white?
[13:53] Max Chatnoir: Yes, human history is full of invasions.
[13:53] Belle (bellecharbon): It is in the best interests of all the surrounding Arab countries to keep the Palestinians at war with Israel
[13:53] PearlsOh: Are you all saying the Palis can't fight the Jews?
[13:53] CB Axel: Fine, Belle. I'll just come and take your house so I have a place to live.
[13:54] Max Chatnoir: We're the only human species left.
[13:54] oola Neruda: agree CB
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): were all the same indeed
[13:54] herman Bergson: I guess Max was right in the end...We AREN'T discussing economics anymore ^_^
[13:54] CB Axel: It's not acceptable for blacks to say let's kill whites. Where is that acceptable?
[13:54] PearlsOh: This no Nations stull has come about after ww2
[13:54] PearlsOh: it is malicious
[13:54] Al Michigan: but the Palestinians is an economic thing.
[13:54] herman Bergson: Hold on.....
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but were still discussing the gt togethere thig we should all strive for instead of making conflicts
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): get
[13:55] herman Bergson: Let's save our gunpowder for the next lecture :-)
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:55] CB Axel: Maybe, Pearl, but we have had fewer wars worldwide since then.
[13:55] Max Chatnoir: Well, it kind of comes down to the money, doesn't it?  It's the caliphate.  Land is a power center.
[13:55] Al Michigan: because off the palestinians, the middle east stays un united, and therefore it is able to artificially give the dollar a value it otherwise would ve had
[13:55] PearlsOh: Don't you think forced integration is a source of comflict?
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well I have an event coming up
[13:55] Al Michigan: hu, me line was full off mizzpellingz!
[13:56] Al Michigan: now i cannot even understand me self any more!
[13:56] herman Bergson: My friends.....I guess we didn't save the world today but came close...!
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hhe
[13:56] CB Axel: Probably, but by embracing other cultures and letting them in and getting to know them will be more peaceful than dividing everyone into groups.
[13:56] Max Chatnoir: Votes for women was a source of conflict.
[13:56] Al Michigan: yes, we was soo close!
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well complete it next time
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): on thursday
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :9
[13:56] herman Bergson: So..THANK YOU ALL for your participation....
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now all
[13:56] oola Neruda: rather than killing off the other culture...
[13:56] herman Bergson: Great discussion...
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:56] Max Chatnoir: Great to be back in this group!
[13:56] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman. see you all Thursday.
[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed........
[13:57] oola Neruda: putting them on reservations
[13:57] Max Chatnoir: I really enjoyed it.
[13:57] Al Michigan: but see if we decide to  do away with the woman concept, we d all be equal. i gues we will be more peaceful then
[13:57] herman Bergson: Good to see you again Max :-)
[13:57] Al Michigan: yeah it was so educatiing, lotsa fun!
[13:57] PearlsOh: You mean like how Israel and Palestine, black and white in USA are at peace, forced integration never works,
[13:57] herman Bergson: My pleasure Al
[13:57] Belle (bellecharbon): The major conflicts are among nations and leaders, people from most cultures get along because it is in their best interest to get along and people at the ground level are mostly nice.
[13:57] Al Michigan: indeed pearls! how will we integrate the ''cultures'' of our ''guests''
[13:58] herman Bergson: So true Belle
[13:58] PearlsOh: yeh, good too be free to speak a bit, thank you Herman for hosting.
[13:58] herman Bergson: Why shouldn't you be free to speak. PearlsOh...
[13:58] Al Michigan: how am i supposed to  wear grass skirts, covered in ashes  to see me  kids get cicumsized in a weird culture that i  am forced to  ah well
[13:58] Max Chatnoir: I have office hours coming up.  :-)  But this was a great break!
[13:59] herman Bergson grins @ al
[13:59] Max Chatnoir: Thanks for keeping this going, Herman.
[13:59] Al Michigan: hug, herman
[13:59] herman Bergson: More than ten years now, Max
[13:59] Max Chatnoir: Laudable!
[13:59] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Thank you Herman and class!
[13:59] Max Chatnoir: See you all soon, I hope.
[13:59] Al Michigan: thanks for the classes!
[13:59] Al Michigan: bye, all!
[13:59] herman Bergson: My pleasure Al
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight all
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): weltrusten Bergie en Herman
[14:00] Belle (bellecharbon): thank you for this day
[14:00] herman Bergson: Night Beertje :-)
[14:00] Belle (bellecharbon): bonjour
[14:00] oola Neruda: baieee all