Wednesday, April 29, 2015

583: The History of the Devil

In our world of knowledge and science it is perhaps hard to imagine anymore, but the primary origin of religion must have been fear.
Fear for evil, for the unknown, fear for what is beyond control and then there is the question of responsibility: who or what is the cause of evil.
In this sense the devil has a  longer history than the god of christianity. Almost all known religions started with some kind of devil worship.
The most remarkable feature of this idea of demons or a devil is, that homo sapiens placed the cause of evil outside himself.
This allowed him to believe, that he was not the evil doer, but that he was possessed by some evil spirit or devil.
The Old Testament devil, who cost us paradise, is actually of  Assyrio-Babylonian origin from some 3000 B.C.
He is called in Assyrian Tiamtu , i. e., the deep,
and is represented as the serpent that beats the sea, 
the serpent of the night, the serpent of darkness, the wicked serpent, and the mighty and strong serpent.
The Devil, Satan. is only mentioned 5 times in the Old testament. religious ideas had shifted from devil-worship to god-worship.
It was a religion of fear, for  all acts of evil, of punishment, revenge, and temptation are performed by Yahveh himself, or by his angel at his direct command.
In the Book of Job, where the most poetical and grandest picture of the Evil One is found, 
Satan appears as a malicious servant of God, who enjoys performing the functions of a tempter, torturer, and avenger.
As a child I was taught, that Satan was the bad guy, stimulating you to do evil things, but the greatest danger was in fact god himself.
He was the one who saw everything, knew everything and eventually he would punish you for your sins, even could send you to hell.
The belief in Satan and Hell form an essential part of early Christianity, and Christ was believed
immediately after his death on the cross to have battled with and to have conquered the prince of
Evil got its own kingdom and was personalized in Satan. We all know the face of evil as painted by Jeroen Bosch in the Middle Ages.
The saddest side of the Devil's history appears in the persecution by the Inquisition in those days
of those who were supposed to be adherents of the Devil; namely, sectarians, heretics, and witches.  They were said to worship the Devil by most obscene ceremonies.
The Reformation, although in many respects a great advance did not introduce a sudden change in the belief in the Devil. 
Nevertheless, the tendency becomes more and more apparent to interpret Satan in psychological terms, 
and instead of expecting him in the horrors of nature or in the objective reality of our surroundings, 
to find him in our own hearts where he appears as temptation in all forms, as allurement, ambition, vanity, as the vain pursuit of fortune, power, and worldly pleasures.
This was an important change. The question “Why is there evil?” got a new answer.  Every one personally should honestly wage a war 
with the powers of evil, and that no church, no intercession of saints, no formulas or rituals had any saving power.
In a way the Devil lost his job. Morality became in the spirit of the Reformation a matter of  moral earnestness , individualism and subjectivism.
The ideas of Freud about the human mind removed the Devil as source of all evil-doing even further from the stage, except in Hollywood.
As Margret Midgley writes in het book, titled “Wickedness” (1984): “People often do treat each
other abominably. They sometimes treat themselves abominably too. 
They constantly cause avoidable suffering. Why does this happen?” Yes……why does it happen? Is the Devil  inside of us?
Thank you…if you have any remarks or questions, feel free….the floor is yours…

The Discussion

Max Chatnoir: That's right; that "descended into hell" used to be part of the Nicene creed or something.  Maybe it still is.
herman Bergson: Do people still believe in such a thing as hell?
Max Chatnoir: I think fundamentalist christians do.
Max Chatnoir: Maybe even the catholic church.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe hell is very close to us now
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): look at IS
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's hell to me
herman Bergson: The most important thing that happened in the past 200 years is that the idea of evil was eventually seen from a psychological and individual perspective
Max Chatnoir: My idea of hell is las vegas.  Or one of those raves.
herman Bergson: The reformation started the proces and the Enlightenment made it a fact...
herman Bergson: And today lots of evil behavior is an issue for psychology and science
herman Bergson: The devil is really outdated :-)
CB Axel: My idea of hell is crashing inn sl.
herman Bergson: So now we are left with the question...WHy do we do evil things....
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is there something in the place of that outdated devil?
Max Chatnoir: cast into outer darkness.
herman Bergson: I dont think so Beertje....
Max Chatnoir: Oh, what a good question, Beertje.
herman Bergson: we do not believe anymore in demons and evil spirits....
CB Axel: A lot of Christians still believe in hell and demonic possession.
Max Chatnoir: What do we sell our souls to these days/
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): who is we?
Max Chatnoir: ?
herman Bergson: Well some people stil like to do so, of course
CB Axel: Max, Wall Street?
Max Chatnoir: That seems to be the new satanic figure -- big corporations.
herman Bergson: this we is the educated part of Europe to begin with, I would say...
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont):
herman Bergson: All secular people too...
herman Bergson: And I don't think we have scientists who believe in evil spirits...
herman Bergson: as the cause of evil
CB Axel: Scientists believe in chemical imbalances in the brain as the cause of evil.
herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll confront you with a situation in which you may tell where the evil is....:-)
herman Bergson: Yes interesting point...
herman Bergson: But this would mean the end of evil.....
herman Bergson: it is just a biochemical you do not have the question of morality here
Max Chatnoir: my new personification of evil is Chinese millionaires who pay $200,000 for a big dog and then get bored with it and send it off to the pet food factory.
Max Chatnoir: I can't believe that is chemical imbalance in the brain.  It's absolute power corrupting absolutely.
herman Bergson: Yes MAx...
herman Bergson: But yet the question stands....even when you have the power....why do you act like this and not otherwise
Max Chatnoir: Well, that is a good question.  I guess if all rich people don't do likewise, then maybe they DO have a wacko brain.
Max Chatnoir: The ones who buy the dogs, I mean.
herman Bergson: then you talk like CB :-)
herman Bergson: Brain malfunction....
CB Axel: They seem to have a sense that because they are rich and powerful then anything they do is fine.
CB Axel: Sociopathic
Max Chatnoir: Maybe the inability for empathy is a brain malfunction.
Max Chatnoir: Do you think that is the root of evil?
herman Bergson: I read about research on empathy in correlation with wealth...
Max Chatnoir: Oooh, tell!
herman Bergson: The richer you are the lesser empathy you seem to show...
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes true
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): poor people have more empathy than rich ones
Max Chatnoir: Like George Bush senior and the checkout computers.
CB Axel: But are they born without empathy or do they acquire it with their wealth?
herman Bergson: It sounds reasonable when you think that you can settle everything with money
Max Chatnoir: He hadn't been in a grocery store for so long, he didn't know about them.
CB Axel: That's not evil. It's just out of touch.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they know what it's like to be poor and help others who have nothing
herman Bergson: Does this mean that money can affect our sense of morality...?
Max Chatnoir: I agree, it's not evil in itself, just an indication of how money can insulate you.
herman Bergson: Well there is that song..."Money is the root of all evil"
CB Axel: But does money cause lack of empathy, or does lack of empathy make it easier to trample other people to make money?
CB Axel: "Love of money is the root of all evil."
herman Bergson: Interesting observation, CB....:-)
Max Chatnoir: I don't object to people who make something that a lot of people find useful making money on it.
herman Bergson: If you want to hear a defense of money, read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand...
Max Chatnoir: I think the problem may arise when the money starts making money.
CB Axel: I agree, Max.
Max Chatnoir: I don't have a problem with money, either.  It's just a medium of exchange.
herman Bergson: Franscesco d'Ascone (if I spell the name right) has a flamboyant plea against the theiss that money is the root of all evil
Max Chatnoir: d"anconia, I think.  :-)
herman Bergson: I should look it up....:-)
Max Chatnoir: I read those books when I was a kid.  They were great stories.
Max Chatnoir: But everybody doesn't start from a level playing field.
CB Axel: That's because the original quote was not "money is the root..." It was "love of money is the root...."
CB Axel: It's not the money. It's the greed.
CB Axel: Having money isn't evil in itself.
herman Bergson: No, I agree...
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Francisco d'Anconia
herman Bergson: yes that is the name , Beertje...thnx :-)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yw:)
herman Bergson: Well, I guess we can say goodbye to the Devil then :-)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if you see money just as a medium to exchange there is notning wrong with it, but you can do a lot of evil with too much money
herman Bergson: ANd I to you and thank you for your attention again :-)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): some people find status and power if they have money
CB Axel: "Money is like manure. It's only useful when spread around encouraging things to grow." Or something like that.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol..i was not fast enough to write:)
herman Bergson: I almost did evil with only a coin of 10 French franks.....from before the euro....
herman Bergson: that coin is exactly the same as a oen euro piece....
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a frènkse?
CB Axel: You can buy evil for only 10 francs?
CB Axel: What a bargain.
Max Chatnoir: I want to hear this story.
herman Bergson: And I wanted to try it in a parking meter.....which is in fact immoral behavior with little money :-))
Max Chatnoir: because it screws up the parking meter?
herman Bergson: But it also fits in shopping carts that are locked together :-)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes:)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
Max Chatnoir: locked shopping carts?
herman Bergson: ahh...Max....interesting consideration :-)
herman Bergson: yes....
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): here they all are locked
CB Axel: Did you want to try it in the parking meter out of greed or merely scientific curiosity?
herman Bergson: here the carts are chained together....
herman Bergson: you can get a cart by inserting a coin into a slot
Max Chatnoir: Well, who knew!
Max Chatnoir: Here we have free shopping carts and expensive education!
herman Bergson: when you return the cart you can get your coin back by chaining it again to the others
Max Chatnoir: Ah!  this is to get you to put your cart back.  Very interesting.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): people stole too many carts
herman Bergson: Yes indeed....that is the deep thought behind this :-)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they took them home
CB Axel: I've seen those at airports.
herman Bergson: They really do..:-)
Max Chatnoir: Yes, I see stray shopping carts around the neighborhood sometimes.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): made a bbq from those carts:)
Max Chatnoir: But I don't think that is evil, Herman.  Putting your cat in the microwave -- THAT is evil.
CB Axel: The homeless use them to keep their belongings.
herman Bergson: Bu tthe idea is wrecked because even supermarkets themselves issue special fake coins for the carts
CB Axel: Carts, that is. Not microwaved cats.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it dries very quick though
CB Axel: Microwaved cats aren't good for much.
Max Chatnoir: Yes, and that is a good point, CB.  A lot of evil deeds are just USELESS!
Max Chatnoir: There isn't even any excuse for doing them.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i live in a town were people eat cats..we call them "roof rabbits"
herman Bergson: eat cats, Beertje????
Max Chatnoir: Well, anybody who has to eat cats must be truly desperate.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): roof rabbit
Max Chatnoir: They are way too high on the food chain.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i live in Cats town
Max Chatnoir: Eating rats would make more sense.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i loóóóve the legs..very juicy
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): noo cáts
CB Axel: On the cats or rats?
herman Bergson looks with some worry at ravenmuse
CB Axel: I'm losing track of the conversation. LOL
Max Chatnoir: no cats.  Carnivores shouldn't eat carnivores.  It's ecologically irresponsible.  :-)
herman Bergson: Me too :-)
herman Bergson: SO CLass dismissed ! :-)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we dó eat cats
CB Axel: °͜°
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i lóve it
CB Axel: Good. I'm getting hungry.
CB Axel: For a pork chop, though.
Max Chatnoir: Wow, a happiness blizzard!
CB Axel: No cat or rat on the menu.
herman Bergson: In Asia they eat dogs
CB Axel nods
Max Chatnoir: Yes, sometimes very expensive dogs.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): looks at Ravenmuse.....(must be a week food)
herman Bergson: Chinese have become real consumers :-)
Max Chatnoir: Yes, the face washing is good.
Max Chatnoir: Excellent animations on that cat, Raven.
herman Bergson: A fitted mesh body, I suppose
ravenmuse Rexen: its from twi yu can see it inworld was like 3k
CB Axel: I used to have a lynx point Siamese cat who I called my white tiger.
Max Chatnoir: Pretty!
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you eat it CB?
CB Axel: No. He was my best buddy.
CB Axel: I miss him.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ow he fainted...
CB Axel: LOL, ravenmus
herman Bergson: Sad story CB...
CB Axel shrugs.
Max Chatnoir: Yes, that is a good cat.  The body shaping is excellent.
CB Axel: What are you gonna do. Everyone dies.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok..I have to go...bed time....have a goodnight all and till next time:)
Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman, and everybody for a good discussion.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): (dreaming of nice bbq cat....)
CB Axel: Good night, Bertje.
CB Axel: Bye, everyone. Good discussion. °͜°
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): night CB:)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): night Herman
Max Chatnoir: Bye, you all. See you thursday!

582: Let's worship the Devil.....

This world of ours is a world of opposites. There is light and shade, there is heat and cold, there is good and evil, there is God and the Devil. 
The dualistic conception of nature has been a necessary phase in the evolution of human thought. We find the same views of good and evil spirits 
prevailing among all the peoples of the earth at the very beginning of that stage of their development which is commonly called Animism. 
But the principle of unity dominates the development of thought. Man tries to unify his conceptions in a consistent and harmonious Monism. 
Accordingly, while the belief in good spirits tended towards the formation of the doctrine of Monotheism, the belief in evil spirits led naturally to the acceptance of a single supreme evil deity, 
conceived as embodying all that is bad, destructive, and immoral. Monotheism and Monodiabolism, both originating simultaneously
 in the monistic tendencies of man's mental evolution, together constitute a Dualism which to many is still the most acceptable world-conception.
In the early days of mankind, when man had hardly any understanding of the laws physics or any other rational explanation of reality, man was inclined to regard everything as living and alive.
Everything had an anima, a ‘soul’, thence the  term “animism”. This inclination to attribute consciousness to inanimate objects is still present in our brain.
It is only since a few centuries, that we understand and interpret evil, natural and moral evil, from a more rational and scientific point of view.
But evil exists as long as mankind does, you might say and when you try to understand the origins of religions,
there seems to be no exception to the rule that fear is always the first incentive to religious worship. Fear, caused by all kinds of evil that can threaten your survival.
So, the best god to pray to and try to please is not some creator, but the spirits or spirit that threatens your life, the devil himself.
It is remarkable to observe, that in a number of religions, in which the awareness of evil was strong, one way to please evil was committing the greatest evil: human sacrifices.
Like mankind evil has its history. So it might be an interesting idea to study the history of evil, the history of the devil, to get some insights in the subject.
The first candidate as a worshipped god of evil is the Egyptian god Seth (about 3000 BC). In Egyptian mythology, Seth is portrayed as the usurper who killed and mutilated his own brother Osiris. 
Seth was a sky god, lord of the desert, master of storms, disorder, and warfare, in general, a trickster. Seth embodied the element of violence and disorder within the ordered world. 
Seth is an equal among equals. In a world, where you have hardly any defense against  diseases, disasters, invading enemies,
maybe this reflects how people experienced evil in those days: a phenomenon equal to all other phenomena, an equal part of their daily life.
Thank you…if you have any questions or remarks, feel free….the floor is yours ^_^

The Discussion

herman Bergson: There is no evil in having no questions :-)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): were there other gods then Seth?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): was he really the first???
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): evil ones i mean
Max Chatnoir: Chaos and Cosmos -- Enthalpy and Entropy.
Max Chatnoir: Who did Cain and Abel represent?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): sons of adam and eve human
herman Bergson: There certainly were others Beertje...beginning with Seth is just a choice...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah ok
Max Chatnoir: Another pair of opposed brothers.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but human?
herman Bergson: Bu tthe main point is that people gave evil an identity worship
Max Chatnoir: True.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they still do
herman Bergson: Bu tin fact it meant an attempt to escape evil...
Max Chatnoir: Creepy that they would pick an evil entity to worship.  Placate, maybe, but actually worship?
herman Bergson: for instance....
herman Bergson: disease was in those days an incomprehensible evil....
CB Axel: If you think of worshiping as sucking up, it makes sense.
Max Chatnoir: Yes, it must have been.
herman Bergson: today we do not regard it as evil...we go to a doctor..
Max Chatnoir: Break out in spots and fall over dead, or waste away.
herman Bergson: when you dont understand you are quite willing to attribute the event to some magic power...
Max Chatnoir: Hi, Stephen!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but some really believe it an illness from god
CB Axel: Hello, Stephen. How nice to see you here.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): still
Stephen Xootfly: Hi, all.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hi
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hello
herman Bergson: YEs GEmma...and they even refuse vaccination.....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes
herman Bergson: god's will should prevail...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right
Max Chatnoir: Well, I guess if you feel truly helpless, then appealing to God's will or evil entities might be some comfort.
herman Bergson: But today the issue is that evil is turned into some god, which you should please and worship....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very true
herman Bergson: psychologically it might help indeed Max
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i am not sure i agree with that
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): evil is to be avoided
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): for most
herman Bergson: but it is a product of our culture to behave like that
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): by appealing to a god to take it away
Max Chatnoir: But why would an Evil got want to help you?
Max Chatnoir: Evil god
CB Axel: Well, they could either pray to the devil in an attempt to placate him or pray to God to have him protect you.
herman Bergson: The other point was that it is FEAR that is at the basis of this behavior
CB Axel: Fear and helplessness.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): more common that
CB Axel: I think we're confusing worshiping with honoring.
herman Bergson: another interesting point is that the god of evil is an equal to the god of good...
herman Bergson: Seth and Osiris were brothers....
herman Bergson: Seth killed Osiris....
herman Bergson: and cut him into pieces...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): wonderful
herman Bergson: ISis the wife of Osiris put im together again.....
CB Axel: If by worship you include praying for mercy and offering sacrifices so evil will go bother someone else, then worshipping the devil makes sense.
herman Bergson: Just enoug time to mate and get a son, Horus :-)
herman Bergson: yes CB...that was the goal....please the evil god and keep him in a good mood
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): at least one part of Osiris works fine:)
herman Bergson: The Old Testament God was actually also such a nasty fellow...
herman Bergson: dont make him angry..!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
herman Bergson: or he would slay a whole t tribe...cause an earthquake or whatever
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): powerful entity
CB Axel: Sounds like good and evil weren't equal if Seth was able to kill and chop up Osiris. Isis was the powerful one, since she was able to bring Osiris back.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah
herman Bergson: I am still studyong on it...but the devil was on e the one hand not his equal like in other the Egyptian...
herman Bergson: Yes CB...maybe we might conclude that somehow homo sapiens still eventually believes in the good way of life
herman Bergson: Eventually good will win....
Max Chatnoir: So there is also a redeemer in the story.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we will see
herman Bergson: you are somewhat skeptical about that Gemma?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): whether good wil win out??
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): time will tell
herman Bergson: yes
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): sometimes in the past it has
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): sometimes not
herman Bergson: well...from an evolutionary point of view such a belief is understandable....
herman Bergson: good means survival..
herman Bergson: I guess you all ran out of bytes :-)
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep
CB Axel: I think the evil is inside us and we just created the devil to take the heat off.
herman Bergson: SO...time to head for a nice weekend :-)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): everyone wants to survive..why is there evil then?
CB Axel: Sometimes being evil helps you to survive.
herman Bergson: simple Beertje...:-)
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the evil back in the day of seth was in everything else but us
herman Bergson: because I want to survive more eagerly than you I kill you so all the food is mine :-)
Max Chatnoir: I remember a story about a guy who studied komodo dragons.  What I remember is that the lizard attacked him and he didn't want to kill it, because it was so rare, so he didn't defend himself.  I guess he died.
Max Chatnoir: I don't know if that story is apocryphal or not.  I'll have to check it out.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Japanese have that outlook on life
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think
herman Bergson: He'll certainly wil have died Max....
CB Axel: Nature can sometimes seem to turn against us. So nature can be seen as evil.
herman Bergson: a bite from a komodo varan is deadly
herman Bergson: the classic animistic point of view CB :-)
Stephen Xootfly: a quick infusion of antibiotics might save one. the deadliness comes from the bacteria.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it ws way back then
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i don't think nature can be evil
herman Bergson: indeed Stephen....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): now that we understand it no
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's just what it is
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
CB Axel: I don't either, Beertje, but ancients could and did.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
herman Bergson: that is what it now is about...the history of the devil....
herman Bergson: for us the devil is not in natural disasters anymore....
Stephen Xootfly: gotta run, must go teach. later all.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah ok
CB Axel: No. Those are God's fault.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): bye
CB Axel: Bye, Stephen.
herman Bergson: although there stil seem to exist people who think that an earthquake is a punishment from god
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Stephen
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): some do
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hope i can make it tuesday
herman Bergson: ok :-)
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
herman Bergson: Let me set you free ....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok
herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))
CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you all soon
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Gemma
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
CB Axel: I hope you all have a nice weekend. See you Tuesday.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight and till Tuesday
Max Chatnoir: see you all next week

Max Chatnoir: thanks, Herman

581: First steps into Evil...

"If there is one human experience ruled by myth it is certainly that of evil. One can understand why: 
the two major forms of experience — moral evil and physical evil — both contain an enigmatic element in whose shadow the difference between them tends to vanish" 
A quote from the “The encyclopedia of religion (Vol. 5). New York: Macmillan. (1987)
When you shoot someone, we call it murder, an act of evil. When someone is struck by lightning and dies, we tend to ask, “Why him? What fore?”
A next step is the question “Who caused that lightning?” Although nowadays we tend to ask “What caused the lightning?”
Yet, two dead and in both cases we experience the feeling of injustice. How to get a philosophical hold on evil?
Maybe there is an interesting starting point. David Hume (1711 - 1776) writes in his “Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion”: 
‘Epicurus’ old questions are not yet answered. Is he (God) willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. 
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence, then, is evil?’ 
This is a famous quote,  very popular in atheist circles, of course. Google images on “Epicurus” or “atheism Epicurus” and you get thousands of hits.
The work of Hume illustrates a shift in perceptions of the nature of the problem in the eighteenth century. 
Up to the rationalist Enlightenment, in theistic traditions the main challenge presented by the problem of evil was to defend the coherence of theism, as a matter of understanding. 
That is, theologians put all their energy in finding explanations why god allows evil and why this is not a logical contradiction: god + evil.
This still is an issue and the big hero in this debate today is the 82 years old protestant theologian Alvin Plantinga.  (Btw. his parents were immigrants from the Netherlands:-)
We’ll get back to him.
After the Enlightenment, with the rise of a more widespread atheism, the problem of evil challenges the existence of a sovereign and good god as a matter of credibility.
A short sidetrack. What you see here is a shift to the option of atheism and secularism. This has lead to the serious change of dominance of the church and religion in Europe.
It is interesting to notice, that such a shift in perceptions never seem to have taken place in the Islamic world,
which, if you leave politics aside, appears still lead to an effort to adjust reality to islamic religious beliefs, where in the Western world has happened the opposite.
To begin with, it is important to note that there are at least two concepts of evil: a broad concept and a narrow concept. 
Evil in the broad sense has been divided into two categories: natural evil and moral evil. 
Natural evils are bad states of affairs which do not result from the intentions or negligence of moral agents. Hurricanes and toothaches are examples of natural evils. 
By contrast, moral evils do result from the intentions or negligence of moral agents. Murder and lying are examples of moral evils.
Since the narrow concept of evil involves moral condemnation, it is appropriately ascribed only to moral agents and their actions.
It focuses on the most morally despicable sorts of actions, characters, events, etc. Evil in this narrower sense is more often meant 
when the term ‘evil’ is used in contemporary moral, political, and legal contexts.
I think this is a good starting point…thank you …the floor is yours.

The Discussion

Max Chatnoir: If evil is something done by humans, then it has to be undone by humans.  I wouldn't regard natural disasters, as awful as they might be, as evil.
CB Axel: I agree. Nature isn't evil. Nature just is.
Max Chatnoir: As for a toothache, maybe if you have a kid whose parents won't take him to the dentist.
herman Bergson: Well that is some kind of problem, Max....
CB Axel: But even then, the toothache isn't evil. The parents might be.
Max Chatnoir: But in that case, it's not the tooth that is the evil agent, but the parents.
herman Bergson: Because a lot of people still believe that some natural disaster is the act of some fact god...
Max Chatnoir: LOL
CB Axel: jinx
CB Axel: Then God really hates mobile home parks.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): like thunder is the work of Donar?
herman Bergson: In investigation evil we can't ignore the problem of evil....
herman Bergson: Yes Beertje...
herman Bergson: Just keep in mind....
Rae (raebyenary): the idea of god bringing down natural evil is still comparable to moral evil, because one would have to have a concept of morality to say that god is doing something unjust
herman Bergson: only 13 % of the population of this earth is secular
Rae (raebyenary): so both could be the same
herman Bergson: THAT , Rae is the big problem....!
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why would god hate a mobile home park?
herman Bergson: Because when god is benevolent and he hurts his creation....that is very weird
CB Axel: I don't know, but he sure slams them with a lot of tornadoes.
Max Chatnoir: Seems simpler just to remove God from the equation, and try to improve weathercasting.
herman Bergson: That, Max, is exactly what some people do.....
herman Bergson: We'll get to that in future lectures
Max Chatnoir: My husband was talking about General Motors having bought up all the trolley system in some city and then let it deteriorate so they could sell more cars.  If they really did that, then that would strike me as a evil act.
herman Bergson: There you hit the nerve of capitalism, Max....
herman Bergson: What GEneral Motors did was NOT evil.....
Max Chatnoir: I do know that publisher buy up the rights for rival textbooks and then stop publishing them.  One of my favorite bio books was done in that way.
Max Chatnoir: I thought capitalism was about competition.  Killing the competition isn't competing.
herman Bergson: That too is NOT evil., Max...I have to disappoint you :-))
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but is that evil Max?
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): evil
herman Bergson: I'll tel you why....
Rae (raebyenary): well, its more about the process of killing each other, the cycle of that
herman Bergson: No....wait....listen....
herman Bergson: The financial crisis of 2008 was mainly caused by banks and their actions....
Max Chatnoir: Of course that's a sensitive issue since I live in a city with no public transportation to speak of.
herman Bergson: endangering a whole society might be seen as evil...but it was not
herman Bergson: not a single banker was sentenced to prison...and I can tell you why...
herman Bergson: when asked...why did you sell these dangerous knew the risk....
herman Bergson: the answer always was...yes..but it was NOT against the law...
Max Chatnoir: so does being legal make something moral?
Rae (raebyenary): ^
herman Bergson: so buying manuscripts of competeting authors is NOT against the law....and thence in their eyes....not evil doing
CB Axel: So evil is in the eye of the beholder?
herman Bergson: That is the hot spot MAx....
Max Chatnoir: Well, I might not insist that it's evil, but it does strike me as unethical.
Rae (raebyenary): i believe they did know they were doing something unjust, they just used the law to justify it
CB Axel: Exactly, Rae.
herman Bergson: Exactlt Rae!
CB Axel: Or the lack of a law...of regulation.
herman Bergson: Tehy have no ethics....they just have targets to make
Max Chatnoir: Well, theoretically book publishers are doing a service, which doesn't mean that they should not get paid for it.
Rae (raebyenary): then perhaps evil is more about intention
Rae (raebyenary): good people can commit evil acts, but i think its truly evil if someone doesn’t recognize their wrongdoings, or knows that they are doing wrong and do not care
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): father forgive them because they don't know what they are doing???....
herman Bergson: Here we come to the issue of defining evil....
herman Bergson: some philosophers even suggest to drop the concept...
herman Bergson: But that is for next lectures :-)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): IS has no evil acts?
Max Chatnoir: Well, a good start to the conversation!
herman Bergson: It is just about dropping the concept because it is outdated....and not applicable
herman Bergson: I didnt mean to drop the reality of evil doing :-)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah
Rae (raebyenary): well, its obviously still applicable if we can compare the concept of evil to recent events
herman Bergson: It is a kinf of Wittgensteinian issue .....
Max Chatnoir: You mean don't worry about whether it is evil or not, just worry about trying to prevent behavior that damages other people?
herman Bergson: To begin with Max...
herman Bergson: but it is also a matter of semantics...
Rae (raebyenary): i think its an important chunk of morality...
Rae (raebyenary): should be discussed
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): someone whoe does damage to another person is evil?....
herman Bergson: When you use a concept ..everything that fits into the concept as referent has soemthing in least one trait...
herman Bergson: but as Wittgenstein pointed is a family resemblance....
Max Chatnoir: Evil is such a powerful word, but it does have some supernatural connotations.
herman Bergson: A has something in common with B and B wiC and D and D with K....
Max Chatnoir: Maybe we should work on encouraging human responsibility for human actions.
Rae (raebyenary): are supernatural topics no longer relevant, then?
herman Bergson: and we call them all 'evil'
Max Chatnoir: No, of course not.  I just think that when supernatural entities are introduced, human responsibility is diminished.
herman Bergson: on he contrary Rae if you mean religious topics...
Max Chatnoir: diminished.
herman Bergson: Depends on the gods Max...:-)
herman Bergson: The gods from the Olympus had little interest in the existence of individual persones....only in some persons
herman Bergson: while the christian god seems to be connected with every individual life
Max Chatnoir: Interesting distinction.
Max Chatnoir: Certainly some people claim that God tells them to do bad things, like bomb abortion clinics.
herman Bergson: One thing is clear.....we can not discuss the issue of Evil and ignore its relation to religions...
Max Chatnoir: I suppose not.
herman Bergson: But that isn’t a problem....
herman Bergson: religion is part of culture....
Max Chatnoir: and helps to define moral and immoral acts.
Rae (raebyenary): in an objective viewpoint, in their mind bombing abortion clinics, per your example, is not a bad thing
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are religions the cause of evil?
herman Bergson: no Beertje for that you do not need religions...only humans
CB Axel: You don't need religion to define morality.
CB Axel: You need empathy.
herman Bergson: The issu e here is only how these humans interpret the quality and causes of their actions
herman Bergson: Frans van der Waal CB.....
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think we can learn a lot about evil..for instance how NOT to treat people
Rae (raebyenary): well, if the concept of what is evil is fluid, its hard to say how we SHOULD treat people
herman Bergson: That is the chapter ETHICS in this discourse, Rae :-)
Rae (raebyenary) nods
herman Bergson: I think we covered enough ground for today :-)
herman Bergson: Thank you all for the interesting discussion...
CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
Rae (raebyenary): and thank you for hosting the class
herman Bergson: Class dismissed..^_^
Rae (raebyenary): :)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)

.:Rae (raebyenary): well, off i go then

Friday, April 17, 2015

580: EvilL, a Philosophical Investigation

Today we start a new challenge: a philosophical investigation of the phenomenon, which we call EVIL, a phenomenon with many faces.
On Youtube you can watch numerous movies of how a lion kills such a cute and elegant antelope. Such a mean animal! Just look how it……!
How cruel nature is. The next moment we enjoy a juicy steak, hardly thinking about the fact that it was part of a cow. Also a cute and elegant animal.
What is cruel, what is not? We feel sympathy for the poor antelope, but hardly think of the cow that became a steak on our plate. What is evil?
There is something peculiar in the evolution of the human mind. You can observe two tendencies.
It is really remarkable. On the one hand we look at our world as a world of opposites. We have light and darkness, heat and cold,
and also there is pain and pleasure, love and hate, good and evil, there is god and the devil. This binary way of thinking is such a common method , it seems.
On the other hand, when you take science, for example, there is a strong tendency to monism. For all kinds of phenomena we try to find that unifying theory.
In our culture we succeeded in reducing the number of gods to one,as well as all demons to just one devil. However, this  monotheism and monodiabolism is in itself a dualism again.
Just listen to this: 
-QUOTE- With every day, and from both sides of my intelligence, the moral and the intellectual, I thus drew steadily nearer to that truth, 
by whose partial discovery I have been doomed to such a dreadful shipwreck: that man is not truly one, but truly two. (…)
It was on the moral side, and in my own person, that I learned to recognize the thorough and primitive duality of man; 
I saw that, of the two natures that contended in the field of my consciousness, even if I could rightly be said to be either, it was only because I was radically both; (…)
It was the curse of mankind that these incongruous fagots were thus bound together that in the agonized womb of consciousness, 
these polar twins should be continuously struggling. How, then, were they dissociated? -END QUOTE-
This is the pondering of Dr. Jekyll from the novel by Robert Louis Stevenson: “The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde” (1886)
His intention was to separate the good and evil in man by putting these in their own body. When you then kick out all Mr. Hydes you’ll have a monistic world of only good people.
His plan failed, so we are still caught in this dualism. We are still our own Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde, but now reconfigured by Freud’s ideas about a conscious and subconscious mind. Again a dualism.
Similar reflections on the animal inside us we’ll encounter in “Republic” of Plato, or in the christian belief that we basically are sinful creatures, who can do some good now and then.
But the problems we have with the evil inside ourselves is not all. There is much more evil around. The whole world, or our whole life can be evil as such
Just listen to Schopenhauer in his “Studies in Pessimism” (1851, part of the work ‘Parerga’)
-QUOTE- If children were brought into the world by an act of pure reason alone, would the human race continue to exist? 
Would not a man rather have so much sympathy with the coming generation as to spare it the burden of existence? 
or at any rate not take it upon himself to impose that burden upon it in cold blood. -END QUOTE-
And there is more, war for instance. Is war evil? We are easily willing to say yes, but going after the Nazis in World War II, who murdered millions of people? Was that evil?
Are natural disasters like earthquakes, flooding, erupting volcanos or huge devastating fires evil?
There  too is that other issue. Coming from atheism we yet did not discuss that question in extenso: How can there be a omnipotent and benevolent god, who even created this world and also so much evil at the same time?
We can not ignore it. Like the Encyclopedia of philosophy says:  “The problem of evil concerns the contradiction, or apparent contradiction, between the reality of evil on the one hand, 
and religious beliefs in the goodness and power of God or of the Ultimate on the other.”
But listen carefully, evil isn’t the problem here, but only this contradiction. You do not need gods to have evil in this world.
First there is the general question: “How can rational beings commit evil acts?”,  only then the question: “How can rational beings belief in  the existence of an omnipotent, benevolent creator and the existence of evil?”
In other words, enough philosophical material for another project….
Thank you all….the floor is yours… ^_^

The Discussion

Bejiita Imako: hehe
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we shall see
Bejiita Imako:
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you keep us busy herman
herman Bergson: Indeed we will Gemma :-))
Bejiita Imako: indeed
Bejiita Imako: hehe
herman Bergson: that is my philosophical duty Beertje :-))
Bejiita Imako: true
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): we all have evil parts in us
Bejiita Imako: the idea of evil is complex indeed
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): its a part of life
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): and the thing is to handle with it
herman Bergson: Do you really think so, Daruma???:-)
Bejiita Imako: nature disasters cant be evil however, for evil there must be a conscious being with desire to cause damage
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): some people do not believe they have evil in them
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or the possibility of it
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): ja to consume more than u need is also a part of evil
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): being selfish
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): which has always amazed me
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): dont thinking about consequences
Bejiita Imako: another thing there
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): e.g. wearing fur - eating meat
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): we are very far away of beeing good
herman Bergson: hold on....!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): is that evil??
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): llol
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): not very
herman Bergson: hold on!
Bejiita Imako: this can get complicated
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): but we are not really good
Bejiita Imako:
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): lol
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): sorreee
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): guesses we need a workiing definition of evil
herman Bergson: The things Daruma mentions are closely related to ethics...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): on a poster to remember for the classes
herman Bergson: intersting...but yet...
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): but not having real ethics in my life - isnt that a kind of evil?
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is the skinny guy on the poster a difinition of evil?
herman Bergson: Well..Gemma ..isn’t that our objective here,?
herman Bergson: To find a definitiion of evil?
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): Beertje we did not find that out yet
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): for now - its only bones...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah ok
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ( he looks like Herman ) giggles....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): thougth you already had one
Bejiita Imako: lol
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): rofl
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we will be wandering all over the grid in discussions then
herman Bergson: Take yoyr time....
herman Bergson: your
herman Bergson: We aren't in a hurry to define EVIL....we want to study it..
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in and out of doors
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): as long as you know
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): what shall be off topic then
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): back to daruma
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): ja can it be evil when humans act as they have to. cos they did not learn it in a different way
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): every human has patterns from his partenst e.g.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is evil?
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): and when they only got to know e.g. beeing brutal, so what shuld they give to the world?
herman Bergson laughs
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): evidently we don’t know yet
herman Bergson: Hold on!
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): ja so is it evil to kill e.g someone?
herman Bergson: I just introduced a new theme...and you already want the ultimate answer...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
CB Axel: 42?
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): ja and?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): ;-)
herman Bergson: You put me out odf a job this way!!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): here we go in and out of doors
CB Axel: Sorry.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): one door ethics
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): or 12 as mr. spock would say
CB Axel: Is doing bad evil or does there have to be malicious intent?
Bejiita Imako:
herman Bergson: I would say.... 42
herman Bergson: so..
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes mr bones up there does look like Herman
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear
Bejiita Imako:
herman Bergson: thank you all for trying to put me out of my job :-)
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): perhaps we search too much for answers and don’t try out life;-)
Bejiita Imako: we are EVIL!
CB Axel: LOL
Bejiita Imako: lol
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): jjaaaa bejita
herman Bergson: YOU ALL ARE !!!!
Bejiita Imako: MUAHAHAHAH
herman Bergson: Class
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): in a way - yes
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): we all are
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Herman get's scared....
CB Axel: I'm not sure I'm evil. I can be thoughtless at times.
Bejiita Imako: evil is complex indeed
Bejiita Imako: where do the line go
herman Bergson: Just wait and see Bejiita..:-)
herman Bergson: Evil is fun :-))
herman Bergson: sorry..
herman Bergson: project on 'Evil' is fun :-))
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so you say
CB Axel: Fighting evil would be fun. It allows bloodlust to run free without guilt.
CB Axel: Or, at least, less guilt.
Bejiita Imako: my definition of evil is deliberately want to harm people nature ect for own winning
Bejiita Imako: or similar
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hang on to it bejiita..
Bejiita Imako: or just having all screw looe like Hitler and Breivik had
Bejiita Imako: loose
CB Axel: But Bejiita, I don't think the harm even has to be for one's own benefit.
Bejiita Imako: maybee not
CB Axel: In fact, doing harm just for the sake of doing harm is more evil, IMO.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it has always been my opinion that people who seem to be really evil are partly sick in the head
CB Axel: Psychopaths?
Bejiita Imako: for me too
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): possibly
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): cos they act different to the most of us?
Bejiita Imako: something is wrong up there in their heads for sure
CB Axel: Those are the ones who are evil just for the sake of being evil.
CB Axel: What about those who are evil for their own gain?
Bejiita Imako: must be something like that
CB Axel: Dick Cheney.
CB Axel: Donald Trump.
CB Axel: The Koch brothers.
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): ey donald trump;-)
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they are not evil just stupid!!!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): rich and stupid
Bejiita Imako: hehe
CB Axel: I wish the Koch brothers were stupid. They are smart and greedy.
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): not stupid. they have power and knowledge, but they use it for selfish things.
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): mostly
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep
herman Bergson: maybe being stupid can be evil too, Gemma :-)
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right
Bejiita Imako: hmm
CB Axel: But to be evil, does one have to be smart enough to realize what they are doing is wrong?
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): i bought the book of donald trump. after reading i can say more^^
herman Bergson: lol..maybe we all are evil then too :-)) :-)
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lolo
Bejiita Imako: heheh
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): we are herman
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): to be enlighted it needs a lot
herman Bergson: so...let's kick ass Daruma..:-))
CB Axel: Are we evil or just mischievous?
Bejiita Imako: hmm
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): knowing your ´shadows and beeing really open to everything - i guess its a very har work
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): since we dont have a definition maybe maybe ot
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not
Bejiita Imako: still dont think i have evil in me
herman Bergson: ahh CB...nice subtitle ty
Bejiita Imako: evil feels not like fit in my personality
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): wonders what happens when the golf club is bad
CB Axel: I certainly have evil thoughts about some people.
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): its all about thinking what can i eat, what can i wera etc.?
CB Axel: There are some people who would not want to meet me in a dark alley.
herman Bergson: Were you reading my mind CB? :-))
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): true
Bejiita Imako: haha
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but all in the mind
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): these days we can inform us about everything how it is pruduced, and when u know that and still buy it. its a bit beeing evil
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): i think
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): evil thoughts
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): do not become behaviour
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): always
Bejiita Imako: ah
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): ja and also evil thoughts when someone grabbed yur parking space
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
herman Bergson: Anyway,....
herman Bergson: you all are behaving already in an evil way...
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): i think we have in mind the devil and horror movies. but tats hollywoood^^
herman Bergson: for I already dismissed claas and tyou still go on :-)))
CB Axel: I have never wanted to kill anyone over a parking space.
CB Axel: Slash tires, maybe, but not kill.
Bejiita Imako: sure i want to put both Kim Jong II and Putin in the LHC and smash them to bits but these guys also are a threat to the world
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): mh killing someone depends on your own borders;-)
Bejiita Imako: the nasties guys on the planet at moment toghether with IS
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): everfybody can and will
Bejiita Imako: and Boko Haram
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): depends on the subject-
herman Bergson: lol™CB
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): shall be interesting
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i see tht
Bejiita Imako: very
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): ja it is;-)
Bejiita Imako:
CB Axel: I'm not going to name those who make me feel stabby. I don't want to get on any CIA list.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok
herman Bergson: As I said...Class Dismissed :-)
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
Bejiita Imako: cu tuesday
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): thank uuu
herman Bergson: Such a not listening evil bunch you are!
CB Axel: OK. We're keeping poor Herman up.
Bejiita Imako: heheh
CB Axel: LOL
Bejiita Imako:
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): poor Herman
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): tuesday perhaps^^
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine) waves
Bejiita Imako: bye
Bejiita Imako:
herman Bergson: yes me on Tuesday again Daruma....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): bye
CB Axel: This is going to be a fun topic, I can see.
CB Axel: Good bye, everyone. See you Tuesday.