Tuesday, April 14, 2015

578: Is The Atheist a Believer in Disguise ?

Gemma : one thing i have learned in the discussion these past weeks is that those who are unbelievers believe as strongly as faith believers. We all believe what we believe.  You believe it will not happen. Others believe it will.
herman Bergson: The atheist is a believer in disguise :-))
Gemma Allen : exactly!!!!!!!!!
Gemma’s observation leads to a some interesting considerations. The first one is, that there are believers and faith believers. The second one is that we all believe what we believe.
Does this later mean that everything is just a private belief? I believe this, you believe that? 
This could imply an absolute relativism in the most extreme case. But I do not think, that this was intended here.
But if an absolute relativism is not meant, this would imply that you have beliefs and beliefs. I mean, somehow there has to be some qualitative difference between beliefs.
One way or another there have to be wrong beliefs and right beliefs. It can’t be, that you just believe what you believe and that such belief can not be criticized.
-quote-  Before proceeding, let’s define our terms. An atheist is someone who doesn’t believe in God and⁄or finds the very concept of God meaningless or incoherent (Baggini 2003). 
An agnostic is someone who is unsure or undecided about the existence of God, or who believes that there are certain matters
 – such as existence of a God – that are beyond the scope of human knowledge and comprehension (Eller 2005). 
Other terms commonly associated with atheist⁄agnostic include ‘‘freethinker’’ ‘‘humanist,’’ and ‘‘skeptic’’ (Pasquale 2009). 
A secular person is someone who is non-religious, irreligious, or generally uninterested in, indifferent to, or oblivious to religious beliefs, activities, and organizations (Kosmin 2007). 
Finally, a none refers to someone who, when asked in a survey what his or her religions is, stated ‘‘none.’’ -end quote-
Let’s give an example. Is it ok to believe whatever you like? Take for instance psalm 14:
1. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; not one does what is good. 

2. The LORD looks down from heaven
upon the children of men, to see if even one is wise, if even one seeks God. 

3. All have gone astray; all alike are perverse. Not one does what is good, not even one.
It is in the bible, so it is god’s word. A christian believes that and thence feels completely justified to discriminate people,
who talk like the “fool” mentioned in verse one, because who thinks like that is corrupt, evildoing and perverse.

However, the christian who thinks so, is fundamentally wrong. This kind of discrimination is contrary to basic human rights
as stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 10 December 1948.
Yet, to quote Zuckerman, “some state constitutions – such as those in South Carolina and Arkansas – actually ban unbelievers from holding public office (Heiner 1992), 
and in many courtrooms of America, divorced parents have had custody rights denied or limited because of their atheism (Volokh 2006).”
-quote- It is often assumed that someone who doesn’t believe in God doesn’t believe in anything, or that a person who has no religion must have no values. 
These assumptions are simply untrue. People can reject religion and still maintain strong beliefs. Being godless does not mean being without values. 
Numerous studies reveal that atheists and secular people most certainly maintain strong values, beliefs, and opinions. 
But more significantly, when we actually compare the values and beliefs of atheists and secular people to those of religious people, 
the former are markedly less nationalistic, less prejudiced, less anti-Semitic, less racist, less dogmatic, less ethnocentric, less close-minded, and less authoritarian -end quote-
So I would conclude, that in the first place there are justified and unjustified beliefs. Thence it is justified to question certain beliefs.
In the second place, the secular person is not at all a believer in disguise. On the contrary. Maybe he is even a stronger believer in a better world than religious believers.
The quotes were taken from the interesting article “Atheism, Secularity, and Well-Being: How the Findings of Social Science Counter Negative Stereotypes and Assumptions “ (2009) by Phil Zuckerman.
Thank you…. the floor is yours ^_^

The Discussion

Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine) claps
Max Chatnoir: I think the trick is in how far belief strays from observation.  There are observations that we can agree on.  Like whether there are people in the room or leaves on the trees.  There are common beliefs, like the moon goes around the earth, which is more or less observable over time.  There may be less common beliefs about invisibles like DNA or electrons.  Those are still more or less agreed upon, because we find arguments for them convincing.   The tricky territory is in beliefs about things that can't be seen or measured or predicted.
Bejiita Imako: Religious people often use their belief to justify discriminating homosexuals and other that they think are "different"
herman Bergson: hold on...plz....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very true
Bejiita Imako: read one example in swedish paper today
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): bejita
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): Ja i mad also sometimes the experience, that "believing" people are a bit narrow minded
herman Bergson: let's take a moment to reads Max's comment
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): true i say max
Bejiita Imako: hmm very true max
herman Bergson: Got one problem with your comment Max.....
Guestboook van tipjar stand: Hermine Resident donated L$86. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!
Bejiita Imako: those things we know are there because we can see and measure them either directly or indirectly
herman Bergson: How do we observe things that can not be measured or used for predicting new events?
Bejiita Imako: on the other hand we cant see dark matter either yet it should be there they say
Max Chatnoir: Well, you can't.  That's the problem.  Once you get into immeasurables is that you can use those ideas to justify about anything.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
Bejiita Imako: is god dark matter maybe?
herman Bergson: If they cannot be measured...how then can they be observed?
Max Chatnoir: But dark matter is measurable.
Bejiita Imako: the CERN guys say they should be able to detect missing energy to prove it
Bejiita Imako: if its there
herman Bergson: They even hope to discover something about dark matter when LHC is at top performance...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they are looking into that now that it is running again
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): measuring it
Bejiita Imako: aa, i look forward to that
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): capturing it
Bejiita Imako: would be awesome to finally find out what it is
Ciska Riverstone: the difference between a believer of a faith and a non believer of all sorts is that the believer of a faith can be measured as to what he beliefs exactly, when he states is religion - the definitions are open to public whereas those of a non believer are not which makes them flexible and less committed
Max Chatnoir: Dark matter's gravitational effects are measurable.
Bejiita Imako: yes
herman Bergson: I disagree Ciska...
Bejiita Imako: thats why they go so far as say 70 to 90 % of all matter is dark
Max Chatnoir: Yes, non believers are free not to believe whatever they like.  :-)
Bejiita Imako whispers: thats a lot!
CB Axel: People of faith are flexible. They make their beliefs fit their prejudices. ;)
herman Bergson: I even strongly disagree ^_^
herman Bergson: As I said in my lecture....secular people have strong beliefs themselves....
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): but believing must be flexible I guess. To some religios peoape this would be more helpful. I think .e.g. Fanatism
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but non believers do believe
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): we do Bejita^^
Bejiita Imako:
herman Bergson: Like Ihave the stron g belief that incenturies the human ratio finally will understand life
Ciska Riverstone: yes herman but they are not writtend down in a bible - so how can they be judged?
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): the human race must do that. without we turn depressive
Bejiita Imako: but both cases are beliefs
Max Chatnoir: But I think here is more in the world besides God or science.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they believe in their logical belief
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that there is no god
herman Bergson: No...the are written down in text on human rights for instance
Ciska Riverstone: which changes with time
Ciska Riverstone: its more flexible
Bejiita Imako: AH
Bejiita Imako: grmmmbl CAPS!
herman Bergson: that is not my impression Ciska...
herman Bergson: freedom of speech for instance...how flexible is that...?
Ciska Riverstone: wlll homosexuals were not included in human rights long time ago
CB Axel: It's very flexible.
herman Bergson: the right on your own life and body...?
Ciska Riverstone: which is wrong
Ciska Riverstone: but they might now
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): pretty free unless it threatens another human
Max Chatnoir: Yes, the issue of human rights isn't a scientific issue.  It's an opinion about the kind of society we would like to aspire to.
herman Bergson: Indeed Max...
Bejiita Imako: ah
Bejiita Imako: yes
Ciska Riverstone: yes max - i agree there
Ciska Riverstone: so it changes with the culture
Bejiita Imako:
herman Bergson: But it is mainly focused on the integrity of the individual...
Ciska Riverstone: its not a million year old book people are hold down to
herman Bergson: YEs Ciska....
herman Bergson: cultures that do not recognize the individual as a value ....
Bejiita Imako: there are too many such cultures unfortunately
herman Bergson: such cultures have no problem of killing individuals....
CB Axel: Like the US.
herman Bergson: Like in the Stalin aera in the USSR
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or harassing them now
Bejiita Imako: no feel for other people
Bejiita Imako: i dont get it
herman Bergson: ok...it is an invention of the Enlightenment....the respect for the individual....
Max Chatnoir: But even in those cultures you don't kill just anybody.  It's the reach of who it's OK to kill that is the problem.
Bejiita Imako: it should be a built in instinct but i guess they have pushed it aside in some way
Bejiita Imako: hmm must be something like that
herman Bergson: But like all humans also we are the result of evolution
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): still evolving
Max Chatnoir: I guess the realm of "threat" is larger in some cultures.
herman Bergson: like no other culture in this world developed scienc but the European oen
Max Chatnoir: The arabs had a good start.
Bejiita Imako: yes
Max Chatnoir: Even a head start, but then they got religion.
Bejiita Imako: then islam ruined it
herman Bergson: yes but were stopped in 643 when Mohammed came with his Islam, Max
Bejiita Imako: the Arabs invented math for ex
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so did the Egyptians
Bejiita Imako: algebra
herman Bergson: they kept on going till 1100...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): with constructing
Bejiita Imako: then all stopped
Max Chatnoir: algebra has to be arabic, from the word.
herman Bergson: medicine, mathematics..then it was all killed
Bejiita Imako: really sad
Max Chatnoir: tragic.
Bejiita Imako: how far they could have gone
herman Bergson: Indeed....Bejiita...
herman Bergson: and look how far they have come today...:-((
Max Chatnoir: Even a few decades of determined irrationality killed soviet genetics.  It never recovered.
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): indeed
Bejiita Imako: they could be pioneers by now, instead they succumbed to religion and became stuck in time, even went backwards
herman Bergson: Indeed Max...
Bejiita Imako: just look how saudi threat women, they are like an object that you can just throw away
herman Bergson: We are witnessing a proces of evolution....cultural evolution that will take centuries...
Bejiita Imako: not human to them
Bejiita Imako: awful i think
Max Chatnoir: So religion can be devastating to intellectual life.
herman Bergson: But my point is.....we are aware of the process....
Max Chatnoir: and thence to human rights.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): part of that problem is that the women have not revolted in mass insurrection
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): fear
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): domination
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but some have
herman Bergson: Like Psalm 14 is devastating to human rights Max
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and I think more will
Bejiita Imako: hope so
CB Axel: Part of the reason we're aware of the process is social media.
herman Bergson: Women are at least 50% of world power indeed Gemma...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right
Max Chatnoir: Yes, that psalm would give you pause.
Bejiita Imako: yes
herman Bergson: Just think of the women of Sparta....:-)
herman Bergson: they kept their husbands form going to war.....by revolting....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep
herman Bergson: denying them their male rights..:-)
Max Chatnoir: Indeed something like it gave Pascal pause. "Pascal's wager"
Bejiita Imako: ah
CB Axel: Male rights? Oh please!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   ,.·^*'´|'\            ,.·^*'´¯¯¯'`*^·,  ,/ |'`*^·-, 
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |  \       ,·'       ,.·:*:·,         '`i      |            
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |   |      ;          ':,:::,:·          ;      |            
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |   :i - ·;i'`:,         ¯¯         ,·´|     '|           
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):  '|         '´         '|'i   `*:~· - ~^*'´    |   |          '`*·-, 
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|          ,.-:^:':'\:'`:;                   :;·:i  /`':^·.,        i 
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|..,.:'´              '\| '`*^~·:-:·~^*'´'|/            '`::..,  | 
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '´:           ;:-·^*'´                              `'*^·:;-          
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):       `·;:·'´                                                      '`^  
herman Bergson: sorry....
herman Bergson: male desires :-))
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oops
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): lol
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): better
CB Axel: That's better. lol
Bejiita Imako: heheh
Max Chatnoir: gemma, how did you do that?
herman Bergson: thank you CB :-))
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahah Gemma
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): gesture
Bejiita Imako:
herman Bergson: But my believe is....
herman Bergson: whatever I can think of...there are others who do too....
CB Axel: Do Muslims pick and choose what they like from the Koran the way Christians do with the Bible?
CB Axel: It seems to me that they do.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they interpret yes
herman Bergson: of course CB
Bejiita Imako: yes have to be like that
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is there still hope for this world?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is why there are so many sects
Max Chatnoir: I would be cautious about discussing religion with my own siblings because they are quite conservative and I wouldn't want to upset them.
herman Bergson: Only scientists can't do that
CB Axel: Not just interpret but don't even read the parts they don't like.
Bejiita Imako: true
herman Bergson: with respect to their theories about reality
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): read but put aside
Bejiita Imako: if they dod there woulnt be these extremists
Bejiita Imako: did
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so do christians
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so do buddhists
CB Axel: Buddhists have a bible?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and all others
herman Bergson: The only ones who don;t are scientists...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they have yes
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not called bible
Bejiita Imako: ah i suppose so
herman Bergson: and when they yet do, they are caught performing data fraud
Bejiita Imako: scientists always look for hard evidence
herman Bergson: data
Max Chatnoir: I lost track of a thread.  Only scientists can't do what?
Bejiita Imako: look the same way at things
CB Axel: Scientists aren't afraid to say they were wrong and will change their minds when given evidence.
herman Bergson: cant interpret texts like they want..like you can interpret a bible or koran at will
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think they are called discourses
Bejiita Imako: all follow collected information
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): not all cb
Max Chatnoir: Ah, gotcha.  Thanks.
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): a lot scientist only chase for money for their projects.
Bejiita Imako: the higgs boson for ex everyone agrees it exists based on the same information, its not one thing for some and another for some others
Bejiita Imako: because there is actual data on it
Max Chatnoir: Yes, that's a nice point.
CB Axel: Those are not scientists, imo, Daruma. They are propagandists.
herman Bergson: Daruma...we can't escape the fact that even scientists are just humans
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and make errors
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): adn defend them
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): lol herman. true
Bejiita Imako: that true
herman Bergson: indeed Gemma...
Ciska Riverstone: a lot of scientist try to prove their beliefs and have troubles when this does not wokr out
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): ja Gemma. thats also true
Max Chatnoir: We do get things wrong, time after time, so we shouldn't get too cocky about what we believe.
Bejiita Imako: CERN goes by something called sigma 5, they don’t stare a discovery until its something like a 0.0000000001 chance its wrong
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): for example the uk scientist who published an absolute lie regarding inoculations causing autism
herman Bergson: there is nothing wrong in accepting you are wrong...
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): we must improve our beliefs more often
Max Chatnoir: But some things like DNA, and gravity probably aren't going to go away.
Bejiita Imako: state
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): vaccinations that is
herman Bergson: that is the big difference with a religious believer....he is NEVER wrong
Bejiita Imako: true
CB Axel: Gemma, they published that using bad science.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): correct
Bejiita Imako: then we have these false quakers
Max Chatnoir: false quakers?
Ciska Riverstone: herman - therer might be nothing wrong about it but when you were wrong the money for the next project is at stake
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but many still believe it
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and use it as a basis for no vaccinations
herman Bergson: I know Ciska....
Bejiita Imako: a fav is in the audio sector where they try sell you cables for 10000 s of dollars based on mumbo jumbo talk
Ciska Riverstone: and a scientist must live too
Ciska Riverstone: poor soul
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and it took a long time to convince some scientists it was not valid to begin with
Bejiita Imako: ah
herman Bergson: But another issue of this world is that it is all about money....
Max Chatnoir: Well, no vaccinations will give you measles epidemics for sure.
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): but their have not a "normal" job. Scientist have to search for the "truth". Whatever that is
herman Bergson: another belief!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes money
Bejiita Imako: ah
herman Bergson: It is not about well being...it all is about profits and money
Ciska Riverstone: the truth is that believes steer our world whether we want it or not - we can only choose which ones
herman Bergson: so that is another chapter of learning for mankind :-))
Bejiita Imako: hence these quackers in science
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): and thats the problem in our world: money and prestige thinking
herman Bergson: get rid of the money thinking
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): call them quarks
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not Quakers
Bejiita Imako: luckily science is very serious in general
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is the term
Bejiita Imako: you can mostly trust science
Bejiita Imako: that is good
CB Axel: Money is a huge problem. Drug companies will make more money treating cancer than they ever will preventing it.
Ciska Riverstone: to trust is to belief
herman Bergson: All knowledge claims by the catholic church are refuted..
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): Bejita, we< can trust nobody;-)
herman Bergson: the earth is NOT flat
Bejiita Imako: it sure isnt
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): nee herman?? och.
herman Bergson: the sun is NOT the center of the universe
herman Bergson: The earth is NOT created 6000 years ago...
herman Bergson: all well proven facts
Ciska Riverstone: how does that affect our happiness?
Bejiita Imako: since we have observed both
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep
Ciska Riverstone: ;)
Ciska Riverstone: (just being a bit of a advocato diaboli)
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): takes a while for many scientific beliefs to be proven wrong
Bejiita Imako: still like discworld though
Bejiita Imako:
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): poor Galileo
Ciska Riverstone: me too bejiita
Max Chatnoir: poor Giordano Bruno!  Galileo at least survived.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): true
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear
Bejiita Imako: hehe
herman Bergson: ahh CB....there you say something important...
CB Axel: Me?
herman Bergson: Let me give you a description of the world we live in....
Max Chatnoir: But it's a good example of how scared he was to persis.
herman Bergson: Just lsiten...
Max Chatnoir: persist.
herman Bergson: A pharmaceutical firm creates a medication that can heal a child of a lethal disease...
herman Bergson: it sets the price to 80.000 dollar a cure and keeps the production low....for the main goal of the company it the shareholders
herman Bergson: then your child gets the disease....
herman Bergson: disease...
herman Bergson: he was infected by the son of your neighbor...
herman Bergson: you do not have the 80.000 dollars for the cure...
herman Bergson: your neighbor has for he is rich...
herman Bergson: thayt is our system of today...
herman Bergson: first come the shareholders...
Bejiita Imako: of you have no money you are worthless
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): always
Bejiita Imako: if
Bejiita Imako: thats sad
herman Bergson: then the person with the big money who can save is child
Bejiita Imako: and crazy
herman Bergson: then the funeral of your own child
Ciska Riverstone: •¸¸.»Ancient Romans understood the concept of personal responsibility.•¸¸.»

After a Roman arch was completed, the engineer who built it had to stand underneath it when the scaffolding was removed.
herman Bergson: That is the world we live in and we are discovering this....revealing this...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there is a new web thing that has popped up in the USA
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): called fundme
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): on the web
herman Bergson: wow...really Ciska...!
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): yes, the thinking in the world must change. Money is for buying things, not to save as much as you can for luxury things. It must be again only to change into food, warm clothes and all the basic stuff.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): people post all kinds of causes and collect money
Ciska Riverstone: did copy that from sedona ;)
Bejiita Imako: ok
herman Bergson: Well...Gemma....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): some like those with ill kids
herman Bergson: I hope you are satisfied with my response to your stance :-))
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): who need money for surgery
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or meds
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): satisfied
Bejiita Imako: you cant measure a lifr in money still we do
Bejiita Imako: life
herman Bergson: It was an honor to present this lecture for you :-))
CB Axel: Hmmm. I wonder if the people who make vaccines and test them would make it well known that they use them and give them to their children would convince anti-vaccers to change their minds?
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): very true bejitaƤ
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
Bejiita Imako: nice lecture again
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): yes thank you herman
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): so no lecture on Thursday?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I think it depends on the culture cb
Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman - it would make a difference cb
herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there are those in some countries who cannot accept them
CB Axel: Thank you, Herman. Are we meeting on Thursday?
herman Bergson: Ahh good you ask...
herman Bergson: CB
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): are we done with athiesm?
herman Bergson: I will be on vacation in RL on Thursday...so no class then!
Bejiita Imako: ok
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hooray
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): but tuesday again?
CB Axel: OK. Thanks.
Bejiita Imako: hehe
Ciska Riverstone: a friend of mine had to fly these days with lufthansa - and the pilot came to the people before the start telling them that he has family too and wants to be down in once piece again - they aprriciated it.
herman Bergson: celebrating a lot....:-)
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not hat you are retired take lots of vacations
herman Bergson: going to the island again...
Ciska Riverstone: enjoy vacation
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): wonderful
CB Axel: Have a nice holiday and see you next week.
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): happy holidays
herman Bergson: me and my wife then both 65 !
Bejiita Imako: aaa ok
Ciska Riverstone: cooooool
Bejiita Imako: have a good time there
Bejiita Imako:
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): ui congratulations!
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a wonderful vacation Herman
Ciska Riverstone: ejoy
herman Bergson: yeah..the state will provide for us from then on..lol
Ciska Riverstone: take care everyone
Bejiita Imako: bye all
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
Daruma Hermine Boa (hermine): so see you next week
herman Bergson: Thank you all.....
herman Bergson: class dismissed :-))
herman's eyes: 2015-04-07  [23:01]  CB Axel
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): fijne avond Herman en ik zie je morgen

Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman.

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