Wednesday, October 24, 2018

740: The world, on big business deal.......

When you try to understand what world we live in today, just look at the 20th century.
US president Trump isn't the cause of anything. He is THE symptom of what is going on these days: the world as one big business deal.
What is happening to the Western World may be traced back to a man like Mikhail Gorbachev and November 9,1989, when the wall in Berlin fell.
The message to all CEOs of the multinationals was a big Hurray! Capitalism had won eventually. Haven't we always said that we were right, they must have thought?
After World War II in several European countries there were developments,  which can be referred to as "the welfare state".
The basic idea behind it was to give everybody in society an equal chance, 
independent of how rich or poor you were. Only based on the talents you had to offer to society.
I myself am an example of this. My parents weren't rich. Certainly unable to pay for a college education for me.
Yet I became a college professor myself for 30 years thanks to the governmental support to finance my education. That is how I paid back to society and I am proud of it.
What we see these days, at least in the Netherlands, is a return to primitive capitalism. You have chances in society only when you have money.
Worldwide we see an increasing gap between the poor and the rich and all this is caused by the conviction, that liberalism has won.
Yet, in the early 20s of the 20th century people understood, what the dangers were of plain capitalism.
Of course we had Marx. We saw the rise of communism and revolutions, which however ended in totalitarian states..
At this moment we have to ask the question, is global capitalism a threat to democracy?
In 1962 at the age of 82 Richard Tawney died, an English economic historian, social critic, ethical socialist.
He wrote a few books and the titles are telling enough: The Acquisitive Society (1921), Religion and the Rise of Capitalism (192.6) and Equality (1931)
After the war (WW I) Tawney expected capitalism to disappear. With its pursuit of the highest possible production and profit, 
he thought it was the means to an end, the goal itself. Thus it appealed to the wrong, that is, materialistic instincts of man. 
As a very religious man, Tawney believed that materialism was not in line with human nature. 
It would suffocate the need for servitude and solidarity, the basis of traditional bourgeois culture.
The weirdest thing in this world is, that people accumulate property and money 

and  call the moral principle  to share with those who are for many reasons not so fortunate, leftist or socialism.
In the US being a 'socialist' is kind of equal to being an "atheist', is my impression. In other words...the worst there is on earth. 
In time, capitalism will erode the whole civilization. Under capitalism, according to Tawney, civilization had become primarily a private matter. 
And since individualism irrevocably led to greater inequality, the sense of community would be lost. 
The notion of civilization then acquired a completely different meaning: no longer an inner attitude, but subordinate to materialistic factors.
These are the observations of a man from the previous century and I cannot ignore the feeling, that he has a point.....
Thank you for your attention again :-)

The Discussion

[13:17] herman Bergson: The floor is yours....
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:18] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:19] CB Axel: Communism may have ended in totalitarian states, but capitalism seems to be heading in the same direction.
[13:19] herman Bergson: If you look at the US got a point CB :-)
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i was really worried when Trump said that "Ok you murdered that journalist but we will still sell weapons to you to protect our jobs (even our weapons will be used by terrorists and create even more suffering refugees wich we want nothing to do with of course!)
[13:20] herman Bergson: Europe looks quite safe still
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in other words Trump supports export of weapons to places where they will continue to drive the war/refugee/suffer spiral just to make money
[13:20] herman Bergson: It was the most horrible thing he ever said Bejiita
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): That is soooo insane! :(
[13:21] herman Bergson: It was Capitalism to the utmost
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and there are other better jobs then make weapons for sure
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or is thats all they make in the US?
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): killing machinery
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wich is a big source to all the terror in the world today
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all because of greed
[13:22] CB Axel: Killing people is something we seem to excel at in the US.
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if we stopped doing that w would live a la star trek since long but when all development and money goes to blowing each other up
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I dont get it
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): why we don't realize this 
[13:24] herman Bergson: That's because we are human, Bejiita :-))
[13:24] herman Bergson: As you may have be human is quite a stupid business :-0)
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still not logical, Ok what do i want humanitys goal to be, go into space and be able to live there, cure sicknessess ect or wipe ourselves out from the planet
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the latter seem to be the case
[13:25] CB Axel: That would solve everything.
[13:25] herman Bergson: The main goal of mankind is to share....which we are unable to due to our greed
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): something have gotten sooo wrong somewhere
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and now we don't realize it but instead continue on with it
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): n wrong direction
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): worrying it is
[13:26] herman Bergson: Your remark makes me smile Bejiita
[13:27] herman Bergson: and makes me think of Yuval Harari...
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:27] herman Bergson: He wrote that man was somewhere in the middle of the food chain, chimps are
[13:28] herman Bergson: then there emerged homo sapiens....
[13:28] herman Bergson: and all of a sudden he was at the top of the food chain...destabelizing everything on this globe :-)
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): like a virus:)
[13:29] herman Bergson: so..what went wrong...? :-)
[13:29] herman Bergson: Smart move Beertje....
[13:29] herman Bergson: That is what some people said indeed.....we are a virus,...a cancer to this planet
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): many of us are for sure
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): luckily many are i the other directio but evil seems to win for now
[13:30] herman Bergson: Slow down gentle :-))
[13:30] herman Bergson: We aren't that bad :-))
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): most of us are kind hopefully
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but still, destroying nature, blowing each other up ect., that have to stop completely
[13:32] herman Bergson: But the main point of today is..
[13:32] herman Bergson: that in the 20s of the previous century
[13:33] CB Axel: Poor Bejiita. He used to be probably the most optimistic person in this group, and now he's becoming as cynical as I.
[13:33] herman Bergson: a man already saw that plain capitalism would destroy social solidarity....
[13:33] herman Bergson: the drive to let have everyone an equal chance in society
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well greed and capitalism are no good things
[13:34] herman Bergson: to share wealth...
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats important
[13:34] CB Axel: Greed and communism was a bad mix, too.
[13:34] herman Bergson: to offer everyone medical care without question...
[13:34] Bree Birke is online.
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): communism is no pretty either
[13:34] herman Bergson: this is not about Communism....
[13:35] herman Bergson: this is about the social will to respect the weak and less gifted in our society
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:36] CB Axel: So, something in between capitalism and communism?
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): who was this man Herman?
[13:36] CB Axel: Or something entirely new?
[13:36] herman Bergson: Those in the 20th century saw this....and today it seems that we are forgetting this lesson of the past
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): something nothing of those 2 but something different id say
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): something better
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Herman
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems indeed so
[13:37] herman Bergson: So that is the lesson of today....
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least we all realizes the good things
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): who are in here
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:38] herman Bergson: In a way I really feel sad about this all...
[13:38] herman Bergson: How capitalism has become the  rule
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i just hope it will turn soon because indeed now feels like going in wrong direction
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and capitalism is driving lot of it
[13:40] herman Bergson: Guess we solved all problems for today :-))
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki time to head back to Burn a while
[13:40] herman Bergson: so unless you have any more questions or remaks...?
[13:40] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))
[13:40] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu all soon
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs
[13:41] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: thanx everyone
[13:41] CB Axel: See you Thursday.
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

Tuesday, October 23, 2018

739: Is this the Decline of Democracy...?

We inherited the nation state, respected borders and international law, democracy in various forms from the 20th century.

What do we expect from democracy? Which society do we have in mind when we talk about democracy? 
Ideally, to its core value, democracy is a way to deal with each other decently. So it is a form of civilization. 
You do not have to agree with others, let alone to like them, to realize the necessity of a modus vivendi. 
Sustainability, a sense of destiny, self-relativization, acceptance of dissenters are key concepts in this. 
The realization that you live with others and will not always fully get, what you want, feeds the spirit of democracy, 
which for the art of living together is at least as important as its formal form: the way we organize our democracy.
The United States of today is a worrisome example of what happens to democracy, when people lose sight of these quintessential features of democracy, I just mentioned.
It seems, that the insight, that you never can have it all in a democracy, that you have to give in here and there,
seems totally vaporized in the US. Respect for people with whom you disagree, is also seriously in question.
I was really shocked when in a FoxNews news show one of the journalists talked about the "Demon rats"....WHAT?? Oh sorry...meant the Democrats. (Must have been Gutfeld;-)
So there is a lot at stake when democracy shows signs of crisis. Not only the involvement of people in directing their society is at issue, also their mutual relationship. 
Wherever contradictions in society become harder or even irreconcilable, those politicians win, who make a clear distinction between friend and enemy. 
Made anonymous, for example, by calling it  "elite", "immigrant", "Muslim", '' socialist '', "enemy of the people". 
such an enemy acts as a scapegoat, against whom all resentment of what is not good is directed. This is how social tensions and political polarization reinforce each other.
It is most urgent to revert to the debate on the quintessence of democracy. The autocrat has an advantage.
People, who support him, are not discussing the basics of how to live together. They are adoring a person and are willing to do whatever he asks of them.
Loyalty to true democracy is not loyalty to a person but to more abstract standards for living together, which I mentioned before.
Liberal democracy is also at a disadvantage compared to the autocracy because it is based on the premise, 
that people who are nothing like you, who you never will or never want to have at home, are nevertheless worthy of your respect and attention. 
The autocrat makes it easier for you. He says that people who are different from you cause cultural chaos, a crisis of 'national identity', 
that they are "the enemy of the people" and that they undermine your way of life. 
Here too it is true that in uncertain times the story about scapegoats is easier to bring out than about tolerance and the reality of multiculturalism.
The coming elections in the US can become the sign on the wall.....
Thank you for your attention again ^_^

The Discussion

[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:18] herman Bergson: Feel free to take the floor :-)
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hopes the election will show womething
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): something
[13:18] herman Bergson: Yes I hope too
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is  so hard to tell
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:18] herman Bergson: Do we lose the values we learnt in the 20th century or not
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope not
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): problem as i said before its just about money and ego today, care for only yourself and your wallet
[13:19] herman Bergson: In fact the present situation in the US is a test of democracy
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and point finger to everyone else
[13:19] CB Axel: The right has convinced too many people that the reason they have nothing is because there are poorer people who are taking it. The left believes the people don't have enough because the rich are taking everything.
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the sad reality today
[13:20] herman Bergson: It is about money indeed Bejiita, if you watch how T. responds to the Saudi murder problem
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed i heard about this
[13:20] herman Bergson: totally immoral but as a businessman looking for  profit
[13:20] CB Axel: The rich taking everything has happened before and led to the great depression, as I understand it.
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:21] CB Axel: But for some reason, no on thinks a depression will happen again.
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): iit has also lead to wars
[13:21] herman Bergson: These will be tense 21 days till November 6
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): might just stay in bed
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): til then
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and hope for the best
[13:22] herman Bergson: That is what some fear.....that T starts a war of a kind to divert attention from his internal failures
[13:22] CB Axel: My father and one of my brothers still believe in "trickle down theory" which didn't work under Reagan and will never work.
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what will be the best Bejiita?
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): og
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no idea
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well the problem will contine to some extent
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if the dems take the house
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): surely don't want a ww3 because if this
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): which is very possible
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or any more war i general, the world have seen enough of that
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): can begin inquiries into a lot of things going on i teh white house
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the senate is still the issue
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): many feared when trump came to power that we would all die cause he would start a global nuclear war with kim jong and putin
[13:24] herman Bergson: The 20th century showed us what happens when people forget democracy and begin to follow their "Strong" leader
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they would never vote for impeachment
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because trumps insane
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not really
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so far w are still here at least
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and hopefully will be
[13:24] CB Axel: One house of Congress isn't enough. We need the House and a good portion of the Senate to get even close to getting anything done.
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think of him more as a middle school student
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and kim have calmed down it seems at least
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): his brain has not developed yet
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): stuck in teen thinking
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): me me me  me
[13:25] CB Axel: Yes, Herman, but people don't learn history.
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well he is behaving like a kid screaming and yelling like a baby when he dont get as he wants
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is  it cb
[13:25] herman Bergson: We'll see, CB
[13:25] CB Axel: History is just a boring class they have to take in school. They don't really pay attention and forget anything they learned as soon as they leave school.
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): such behavior is totally unsuitable if you are in the president post
[13:26] CB Axel: Plus, you have people who rewrite the history books.
[13:26] herman Bergson: You didnt CB :-)
[13:26] CB Axel: Actually, I'm having to relearn a lot of history. °͜°
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I am just as concerned with the rest of teh world that is swinging in the trump style
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): brazil now
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is on the verge
[13:26] CB Axel: I had one good history teacher when I was in school, and I didn't appreciate her at the time. :(
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): none of us did
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:27] herman Bergson: There are 195 countries on this globe, Gemma
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:27] CB Axel: That worries me, too, Gemma. I have a Facebook friend in Brazil, and he's going nuts down there. :(
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and  slowly
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one very important part of history is dont let hitlers ideas live on
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i see a lot shifting
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and they still do
[13:28] herman Bergson: I don't know the details about Brazil, but what I see of the US is scary enough
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause we don't learn from history
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): more hate, more racism ect
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): similar
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): one candidate killed
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we should know better today
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): another stabbed
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that that is teh one who is trumpian
[13:29] herman Bergson: I really have the impression that it is one big white supremacy movement
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and is running hard
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true
[13:29] herman Bergson: Take Nort Dakota....
[13:29] CB Axel: No. You take North Dakota.
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just at in hitlers time and before, the slavery
[13:29] CB Axel whispers: I don't want it. LOL
[13:29] herman Bergson: the true inhabitants of America...the indians....
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): harbors a lot of white supremasists
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said we should know better today
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes!!!
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the Native
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): americans
[13:30] CB Axel nods
[13:30] herman Bergson: they live in reservations and have a P.O. Box on their ID....
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): with voting problems!!
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): APache
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): terrible
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ow hmm it is a sad story indeed when u think about it
[13:30] herman Bergson: Now Reps have devised a law which states that you only can register as voter when you have a street address on your ID
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some things are almost unbelievable
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the wild west toned it down however and made amusement of this horrible thing
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cowboys vs indians
[13:31] herman Bergson: This means that the white invaders of the US who committed genocide against the indians try to exclude more that 10.000 voters from voting
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is one new way
[13:31] CB Axel: Native tribes angered the right when they protested pipelines.
[13:32] herman Bergson: If this sint white supremacy politics...
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the old ways of gerrymandering maps is getting old
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes I heard about that too Gemma
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but the courts have stopped some
[13:32] herman Bergson: my my my what a voting system
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in states that went too far
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that is not a democratie
[13:33] herman Bergson: Basic democratic values are going down the drain in the US at the moment....
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it looks like it however
[13:33] herman Bergson: Values we had to learn the hard way in the 20th century
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i still have a lot of hope for many who don't like a bit of it
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and will vote
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes me too Gemma....
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully it will go in right direction someway
[13:34] herman Bergson: this coming vote will show how strong our democratic values are
[13:34] herman Bergson: how strong the democratic system is
[13:34] CB Axel: Or how rigged the system is already
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i wish I could understand how the base that adores trump can be so hypocritical
[13:35] herman Bergson: I agree CB, what I hear about this registering system of the US and that gerrymandering.....and these crooked laws
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): especially the evangelicals
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some of their churches would reject him  as a member
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): instead
[13:36] herman Bergson: I still belief it is the frustration that a black man could become president of the US....
[13:36] herman Bergson: It made the white feel losers
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is certainly a big part
[13:37] herman Bergson: and now they have the feeling of getting back the lost ground led by Trump
[13:37] CB Axel: I think a lot of conservatives are afraid of change.
[13:37] herman Bergson: All registration rigging is done by white republicans mainly
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its the we and them thinking as usual
[13:38] herman Bergson: That is odd CB, for the changes Trump creates in worldpolitics are devastating....and in trade relations and healthcare and in the deficit
[13:39] CB Axel: They're afraid that minorities are taking over and that if they band together against whites they won't be several minorities any more, they'll be one multi-racial majority.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its because they rather have that then a black man as president, cause thats all that matters, if trump starts ww3 we will all go to heaven so its no issue HALLELUJAH
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that sort of thinking
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: conservatives - especially religious ones  mostly want a role back -they are losing power  and  so they become allies with others who are losing power.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): really scary
[13:39] herman Bergson: conclude this discussion....
[13:40] CB Axel: And if they all get together to take power, they'll treat whites as badly as the whites have treated the minorities in the past.
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is nice to sit with a group of people all of whom have the same view
[13:40] herman Bergson: the answer about our future will be given on November least to  some extend
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and unload
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: same with gender dynamic CB
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well well just have to wait and see what the outcome will be then
[13:40] CB Axel: Yes
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it wont change trump tho
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): regardless of what happens
[13:41] herman Bergson: No it wont....
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:41] CB Axel: Trump needs to just curl up and die.
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha so easy
[13:41] herman Bergson: He would love a State Funeral :-)
[13:42] CB Axel: And he needs to take others like Leona Helmsley and all the others like them with him.
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh wow
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well he needs to get dug down in a nuclear waste disposal area deep below ground to be considered safe, alternativley a high security asylum
[13:42] herman Bergson: No...very undemocratic....
[13:42] CB Axel: I'd piss on his grave, but I hear he likes that.
[13:42] herman Bergson: he should lose the votes
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well its trump
[13:42] herman Bergson: elections
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wonders if he will ever recognize the death of the reporter
[13:43] herman Bergson: That's gonna become an interesting issue Gemma
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:43] CB Axel: I think he accepts that the reporter was killed, but he thinks it was a "rogue" person in the embassy.
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so deserved it?
[13:43] CB Axel: A rogue with 15 friends and a bone saw
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe
[13:43] CB Axel: I guess
[13:44] herman Bergson: Something like that CB
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but it is just a reporter who is not a citizen
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tsk
[13:44] herman Bergson: Wouldnt surprise me if he stuck to his rogue theory
[13:44] CB Axel: Like the Puerto Ricans, Gemma.
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh me neither
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we will see
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well
[13:45] herman Bergson: Then there still is Mueller :-)
[13:45] CB Axel: Well, that's all the Trump/Republican bashing I want to do today.
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks i will go do a fishing contest
[13:45] CB Axel: I'll see you all next week.
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes cb
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): did you try the new linden realms game???
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[13:45] herman Bergson: OK CB...
[13:45] herman Bergson: Horrible game
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is
[13:45] CB Axel: Why is is horrible?
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): heard they had ruined it
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i finally got out of the swamp
[13:46] herman Bergson: No fun at all
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now in the mountain
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i will never do it again
[13:46] CB Axel: I'm terrible at those games, so I don't even try any more.
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i loved the realms
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i don't play them either
[13:46] herman Bergson: Madpea games are much better
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was very relaxing running around chasing crystals
[13:46] CB Axel: OK. I'll see you Tuesday. °͜°
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes that i liked at least
[13:46] herman Bergson: How exciting, Gemma :-)))
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye CB:)
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: thank you
[13:47] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and Class!

[13:47] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

Sunday, October 14, 2018

738: Why that. need for a strong leader...?

What is our legacy in democracy from the 20th century? The decline of our Western culture like Oswald Spengler predicted?
What we can observe at least, is, that our Western culture and in particular our democratic system is put to the test.
Spengler dreamt of the rise of a new Caesar, a strong leader and he was served to his taste, but only after his death.
Europe got its share of "strong" leaders. The number one is Hitler, of course, but don't forget Mussolini in Italy.
But that is not all. Spain had its Franco, who died in 1975. He was a Spanish general who ruled over Spain as a military dictator.
Portugal was in the grip of Salazar. He was responsible for the Estado Novo ("New State"), the corporatist authoritarian government that ruled Portugal until 1974.
The Greek had their Regime of Colonels from 1967 to 1974. And all these dictators claimed, that they were in power to save "us" from "the enemy".
The call for a "strong" man is not the privilege of right-wing politics. The extreme left is equally happy with such a leader. To mention a view: Stalin, Mao, Putin...
What does the trick? Why is a society responding to one particular person in such a way,  throwing overboard freedom of speech or equal rights for all?
The "strong man" is the central figure in the autocratic politics. He pretends that he knows the will of the majority, the 'people's will' and that he expresses that will politically. 
That is also his big deception. Why? Because the 'people's will' will always be a construct. 
An autocratic leader creates an image of a homogeneous people according to their own preferences, to then put words into their mouths.
In all his speeches he will say, "We Germans" or "The People"or "We Americans".....demand ,want, stand for this of that.
With that his own right is the same as the right of that 'people'. The implicit message is that if the leader does not get his way, the people will not get their way and the system will not work. 
If he is contradicted or corrected, he will therefore be inclined to attack the democratic system in its foundations, 
by making it suspect and speaking of a 'fake parliament', 'fake judges' and a 'fake press'.
What is that seductive power of the autocracy? That is, that it makes reality clear, simple and unambiguous.
In uncertain times, and that is our time, the autocratic leader has a clear story about cause and effect, perpetrators and victims. 
With his dichotomy between 'us' and 'them', the autocrat organizes and creates clarity in a complex society with porous boundaries and faded social structures. 
The loyalty that he asks of the electorate is up to him: the strong man, the Leader who knows where all their adversity comes from, who is guilty of it and how it again can turn out well.
Europe got rid of its dictators like Salazar, Franco, Mussolini, Hitler and others and restored democracy in the 21st century.
Now and then you get the impression that  the United States of today, however, are moving towards 20th century errors and make their president a cult figure with all consequences.
Thank you for your attention again...^_^

The Discussion

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the list of countries is sad going that way
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): look at turkey
[13:28] herman Bergson: Hungary
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): almost france
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Italy
[13:28] CB Axel: I guess it's our turn for a dictator in the US.
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): possibly brazil soon
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes i guess cb
[13:29] herman Bergson: T. would love that role, I am convinced
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is trying
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so basically its just like this 1.Strong man sets up a trap and lures people with fake promises. 2. once in power he shows his true self and create hell for everyone, for ex like Hitler with the Holocaust
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hard
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): with his base
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and with the support of HIS party now
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and people fall ito this trap over and over agai
[13:30] CB Axel nods
[13:30] herman Bergson: Something like that Bejiita....
[13:30] herman Bergson: But the essential question is WHY DOES IT WORK?
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause people don't think twice
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we don't learn from history amazing
[13:30] CB Axel: Because people fail to learn from history?
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:30] CB Axel: Because they want easy answers to difficult circumstances?
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and want to be saved from dissatisfaction
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: it works because people do not understand the complexity and search for someone to take over responsibility
[13:31] herman Bergson: Or is it a basic psychological need of a father figure.....a sense of security and protection?
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): "can this  really be what he says or os he gonna kill us all/create total war ect when he comes to power"
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and a lack of education
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:31] CB Axel: Because the people want someone who will fix things while the people just sit on their asses watching TV?
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: yes cb
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that too
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes CB...
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wrong programs too
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): can learn lots from tv
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if using the right stations
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:32] herman Bergson: I learn a lot from US TV news programms
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Fox news?
[13:33] herman Bergson: Bu tfrom a distance viewed it is a kind of soap
[13:33] CB Axel: I learn what idiots we are from TV.
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some really dumb programs staring this yeaar here to
[13:33] herman Bergson: I don't watch fox News, for I know what they are gonna say
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bet trump loves them all
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i do some people
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and stand behind whats in them
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): try shep smith
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is a journalist news reporter
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not a foxy
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed its very important to sort out crap from good stuff
[13:34] CB Axel: I don't think Trump watches anything but the news. If it's not about him, he isn't interested.
[13:34] herman Bergson: Bejiita...Trump is in a mental LOOP with foxNews.....
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:34] herman Bergson: He says somewhere...bla bla  it is a disgrace....
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes thats the case indeed
[13:34] herman Bergson: then he watches FN and they say...bla bla is a disgrace....
[13:35] herman Bergson: Then Trump says...
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS!
[13:35] CB Axel: Non-news TV programming is just a hypnotic to keep people from thinking.
[13:35] herman Bergson: Didint I say is in the news too
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and sometimes he says it wrong from what they meant anyway
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is the funniest
[13:35] herman Bergson: that is fun indeed Gemma
[13:35] herman Bergson: I now and then here even at FN a critical remark :-)
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he really don't know anything but he speaks as if he does and boasts about it
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i just BLARRRRGHH and pots cotton in my ears
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i don't think a dictator is fun
[13:36] herman Bergson: Bu tlet's get back to the general level of the discussion....
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is not Beertje
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we know
[13:36] CB Axel: That loop you speak of, Herman, is hilarious when you look at it closely. People who watch Fox don't see it, though.
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the fun part is knowing that he made a mistake and has to admit it
[13:36] herman Bergson: That's the problem CB
[13:37] herman Bergson: But what we are discussing is the legacy of the 20th century....
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:37] herman Bergson: the dictatorships...which eventually were turned over...
[13:37] herman Bergson: and now  this move to the right is a number of countries....
[13:38] CB Axel: I need to look back at the fall of those dictators to see how it was done.
[13:38] herman Bergson: what is happening?
[13:38] herman Bergson: Franco organized it himself before he died....
[13:38] herman Bergson: In Portugal there was a non violent revolution...
[13:39] herman Bergson: as happened in Greek with the Colonels
[13:39] CB Axel: Non-violent? Well, that's no fun. LOL
[13:39] herman Bergson: Mussolini was hanged and Hitler...well we all know that story
[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes...CB.....
[13:39] herman Bergson: The soldiers were in the streets but people put flowers in the barrels of their guns...
[13:40] herman Bergson: I don't recall the details....
[13:40] herman Bergson: it was called the Anjer revolution
[13:40] CB Axel: We did that in the late 60's and early 70's while protesting the war in Vietnam.
[13:40] herman Bergson: Anjer may be a dutch name for the flower people used
[13:41] CB Axel: Anjer = carnation
[13:41] herman Bergson: Ah yes...
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa sound familiar
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that was the flower power time I guess
[13:41] CB Axel: We used mostly daisies. °͜°
[13:41] herman Bergson: But our main question this move to the right in the world just an incident or should it disturb us....?
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well
[13:42] CB Axel: It disturbs me.
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i hope it's just an incident
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): me too
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am afraid it is more than that tho
[13:42] herman Bergson: YEs and I hope the Mueller report will put an end to it all in the US
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but maybe a wake up cll
[13:42] CB Axel: I'm hoping that we can get more young people interested in voting. That would help.
[13:43] herman Bergson: Indeed it would!
[13:43] herman Bergson: So...
[13:44] herman Bergson: I think next time we should ask us the question what realy is meant by democracy....
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): does it still exist?
[13:44] herman Bergson: Fought for by women in the 20th get the right to vote for instance
[13:44] CB Axel: That would be interesting. Or what is meant by capitalism.
[13:44] herman Bergson: It does does
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh worse
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes it does
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in some forms
[13:45] herman Bergson: people may be stupid...but they aren't fools
[13:45] herman Bergson: World War Two wasn't lost but won....!
[13:46] herman Bergson: The Berlin wall fell....didn't keep standing
[13:47] herman Bergson: So...since we are no fools either...we won't give up to make the world a better place ˆ_ˆ
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:47] herman Bergson: Come on, Gemma :-)))
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the question is How
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:47] herman Bergson: Don't worry Beertje...we'll find a way :-)
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how?
[13:47] CB Axel: What people don't seem to realize is that nothing can be fixed quickly.
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe sitting and watching tv is better
[13:48] herman Bergson: ok...
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oor hosting a fishing contest
[13:48] herman Bergson: for the all sit and watch TV and feel relaxed :-))
[13:48] CB Axel: The US has been going downhill since, imo, 1492. It won't be fixed in one election cycle.
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or working in Unity
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:48] herman Bergson: Good....:-)
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): stil dont agree with that cb
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): heavens
[13:49] CB Axel: °͜°
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so much progress
[13:49] herman Bergson: So time to end our discussion, enjoy the weekend eand Dismiss Class :-))
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:49] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again
[13:49] herman Bergson: Thank you all agin for your participation :-))
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman thanx all
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: have a good weekend
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now time to finish the last on my virtual house
[13:49] CB Axel: See you all on Tuesday. °͜°
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have a nice weekend all
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and cu around
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:49] herman Bergson: Enjoy Bejiitsa :_)
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Bejiita
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: enjoy and welterusten beertje