Tuesday, October 23, 2018

739: Is this the Decline of Democracy...?

We inherited the nation state, respected borders and international law, democracy in various forms from the 20th century.

What do we expect from democracy? Which society do we have in mind when we talk about democracy? 
Ideally, to its core value, democracy is a way to deal with each other decently. So it is a form of civilization. 
You do not have to agree with others, let alone to like them, to realize the necessity of a modus vivendi. 
Sustainability, a sense of destiny, self-relativization, acceptance of dissenters are key concepts in this. 
The realization that you live with others and will not always fully get, what you want, feeds the spirit of democracy, 
which for the art of living together is at least as important as its formal form: the way we organize our democracy.
The United States of today is a worrisome example of what happens to democracy, when people lose sight of these quintessential features of democracy, I just mentioned.
It seems, that the insight, that you never can have it all in a democracy, that you have to give in here and there,
seems totally vaporized in the US. Respect for people with whom you disagree, is also seriously in question.
I was really shocked when in a FoxNews news show one of the journalists talked about the "Demon rats"....WHAT?? Oh sorry...meant the Democrats. (Must have been Gutfeld;-)
So there is a lot at stake when democracy shows signs of crisis. Not only the involvement of people in directing their society is at issue, also their mutual relationship. 
Wherever contradictions in society become harder or even irreconcilable, those politicians win, who make a clear distinction between friend and enemy. 
Made anonymous, for example, by calling it  "elite", "immigrant", "Muslim", '' socialist '', "enemy of the people". 
such an enemy acts as a scapegoat, against whom all resentment of what is not good is directed. This is how social tensions and political polarization reinforce each other.
It is most urgent to revert to the debate on the quintessence of democracy. The autocrat has an advantage.
People, who support him, are not discussing the basics of how to live together. They are adoring a person and are willing to do whatever he asks of them.
Loyalty to true democracy is not loyalty to a person but to more abstract standards for living together, which I mentioned before.
Liberal democracy is also at a disadvantage compared to the autocracy because it is based on the premise, 
that people who are nothing like you, who you never will or never want to have at home, are nevertheless worthy of your respect and attention. 
The autocrat makes it easier for you. He says that people who are different from you cause cultural chaos, a crisis of 'national identity', 
that they are "the enemy of the people" and that they undermine your way of life. 
Here too it is true that in uncertain times the story about scapegoats is easier to bring out than about tolerance and the reality of multiculturalism.
The coming elections in the US can become the sign on the wall.....
Thank you for your attention again ^_^

The Discussion

[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:18] herman Bergson: Feel free to take the floor :-)
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hopes the election will show womething
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): something
[13:18] herman Bergson: Yes I hope too
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is  so hard to tell
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:18] herman Bergson: Do we lose the values we learnt in the 20th century or not
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope not
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): problem as i said before its just about money and ego today, care for only yourself and your wallet
[13:19] herman Bergson: In fact the present situation in the US is a test of democracy
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and point finger to everyone else
[13:19] CB Axel: The right has convinced too many people that the reason they have nothing is because there are poorer people who are taking it. The left believes the people don't have enough because the rich are taking everything.
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the sad reality today
[13:20] herman Bergson: It is about money indeed Bejiita, if you watch how T. responds to the Saudi murder problem
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed i heard about this
[13:20] herman Bergson: totally immoral but as a businessman looking for  profit
[13:20] CB Axel: The rich taking everything has happened before and led to the great depression, as I understand it.
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:21] CB Axel: But for some reason, no on thinks a depression will happen again.
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): iit has also lead to wars
[13:21] herman Bergson: These will be tense 21 days till November 6
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): might just stay in bed
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): til then
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and hope for the best
[13:22] herman Bergson: That is what some fear.....that T starts a war of a kind to divert attention from his internal failures
[13:22] CB Axel: My father and one of my brothers still believe in "trickle down theory" which didn't work under Reagan and will never work.
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what will be the best Bejiita?
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): og
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no idea
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well the problem will contine to some extent
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if the dems take the house
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): surely don't want a ww3 because if this
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): which is very possible
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or any more war i general, the world have seen enough of that
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): can begin inquiries into a lot of things going on i teh white house
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the senate is still the issue
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): many feared when trump came to power that we would all die cause he would start a global nuclear war with kim jong and putin
[13:24] herman Bergson: The 20th century showed us what happens when people forget democracy and begin to follow their "Strong" leader
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they would never vote for impeachment
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because trumps insane
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not really
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so far w are still here at least
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and hopefully will be
[13:24] CB Axel: One house of Congress isn't enough. We need the House and a good portion of the Senate to get even close to getting anything done.
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think of him more as a middle school student
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and kim have calmed down it seems at least
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): his brain has not developed yet
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): stuck in teen thinking
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): me me me  me
[13:25] CB Axel: Yes, Herman, but people don't learn history.
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well he is behaving like a kid screaming and yelling like a baby when he dont get as he wants
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is  it cb
[13:25] herman Bergson: We'll see, CB
[13:25] CB Axel: History is just a boring class they have to take in school. They don't really pay attention and forget anything they learned as soon as they leave school.
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): such behavior is totally unsuitable if you are in the president post
[13:26] CB Axel: Plus, you have people who rewrite the history books.
[13:26] herman Bergson: You didnt CB :-)
[13:26] CB Axel: Actually, I'm having to relearn a lot of history. °͜°
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I am just as concerned with the rest of teh world that is swinging in the trump style
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): brazil now
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is on the verge
[13:26] CB Axel: I had one good history teacher when I was in school, and I didn't appreciate her at the time. :(
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): none of us did
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:27] herman Bergson: There are 195 countries on this globe, Gemma
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:27] CB Axel: That worries me, too, Gemma. I have a Facebook friend in Brazil, and he's going nuts down there. :(
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and  slowly
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one very important part of history is dont let hitlers ideas live on
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i see a lot shifting
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and they still do
[13:28] herman Bergson: I don't know the details about Brazil, but what I see of the US is scary enough
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause we don't learn from history
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): more hate, more racism ect
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): similar
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): one candidate killed
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we should know better today
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): another stabbed
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that that is teh one who is trumpian
[13:29] herman Bergson: I really have the impression that it is one big white supremacy movement
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and is running hard
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true
[13:29] herman Bergson: Take Nort Dakota....
[13:29] CB Axel: No. You take North Dakota.
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just at in hitlers time and before, the slavery
[13:29] CB Axel whispers: I don't want it. LOL
[13:29] herman Bergson: the true inhabitants of America...the indians....
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): harbors a lot of white supremasists
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said we should know better today
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes!!!
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the Native
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): americans
[13:30] CB Axel nods
[13:30] herman Bergson: they live in reservations and have a P.O. Box on their ID....
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): with voting problems!!
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): APache
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): terrible
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ow hmm it is a sad story indeed when u think about it
[13:30] herman Bergson: Now Reps have devised a law which states that you only can register as voter when you have a street address on your ID
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some things are almost unbelievable
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the wild west toned it down however and made amusement of this horrible thing
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cowboys vs indians
[13:31] herman Bergson: This means that the white invaders of the US who committed genocide against the indians try to exclude more that 10.000 voters from voting
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is one new way
[13:31] CB Axel: Native tribes angered the right when they protested pipelines.
[13:32] herman Bergson: If this sint white supremacy politics...
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the old ways of gerrymandering maps is getting old
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes I heard about that too Gemma
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but the courts have stopped some
[13:32] herman Bergson: my my my what a voting system
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in states that went too far
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that is not a democratie
[13:33] herman Bergson: Basic democratic values are going down the drain in the US at the moment....
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it looks like it however
[13:33] herman Bergson: Values we had to learn the hard way in the 20th century
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i still have a lot of hope for many who don't like a bit of it
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and will vote
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes me too Gemma....
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully it will go in right direction someway
[13:34] herman Bergson: this coming vote will show how strong our democratic values are
[13:34] herman Bergson: how strong the democratic system is
[13:34] CB Axel: Or how rigged the system is already
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i wish I could understand how the base that adores trump can be so hypocritical
[13:35] herman Bergson: I agree CB, what I hear about this registering system of the US and that gerrymandering.....and these crooked laws
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): especially the evangelicals
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some of their churches would reject him  as a member
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): instead
[13:36] herman Bergson: I still belief it is the frustration that a black man could become president of the US....
[13:36] herman Bergson: It made the white feel losers
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is certainly a big part
[13:37] herman Bergson: and now they have the feeling of getting back the lost ground led by Trump
[13:37] CB Axel: I think a lot of conservatives are afraid of change.
[13:37] herman Bergson: All registration rigging is done by white republicans mainly
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its the we and them thinking as usual
[13:38] herman Bergson: That is odd CB, for the changes Trump creates in worldpolitics are devastating....and in trade relations and healthcare and in the deficit
[13:39] CB Axel: They're afraid that minorities are taking over and that if they band together against whites they won't be several minorities any more, they'll be one multi-racial majority.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its because they rather have that then a black man as president, cause thats all that matters, if trump starts ww3 we will all go to heaven so its no issue HALLELUJAH
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that sort of thinking
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: conservatives - especially religious ones  mostly want a role back -they are losing power  and  so they become allies with others who are losing power.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): really scary
[13:39] herman Bergson: Well...to conclude this discussion....
[13:40] CB Axel: And if they all get together to take power, they'll treat whites as badly as the whites have treated the minorities in the past.
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is nice to sit with a group of people all of whom have the same view
[13:40] herman Bergson: the answer about our future will be given on November 6....at least to  some extend
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and unload
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: same with gender dynamic CB
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well well just have to wait and see what the outcome will be then
[13:40] CB Axel: Yes
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it wont change trump tho
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): regardless of what happens
[13:41] herman Bergson: No it wont....
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:41] CB Axel: Trump needs to just curl up and die.
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha so easy
[13:41] herman Bergson: He would love a State Funeral :-)
[13:42] CB Axel: And he needs to take others like Leona Helmsley and all the others like them with him.
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh wow
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well he needs to get dug down in a nuclear waste disposal area deep below ground to be considered safe, alternativley a high security asylum
[13:42] herman Bergson: No...very undemocratic....
[13:42] CB Axel: I'd piss on his grave, but I hear he likes that.
[13:42] herman Bergson: he should lose the votes
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well its trump
[13:42] herman Bergson: elections
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wonders if he will ever recognize the death of the reporter
[13:43] herman Bergson: That's gonna become an interesting issue Gemma
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:43] CB Axel: I think he accepts that the reporter was killed, but he thinks it was a "rogue" person in the embassy.
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so deserved it?
[13:43] CB Axel: A rogue with 15 friends and a bone saw
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe
[13:43] CB Axel: I guess
[13:44] herman Bergson: Something like that CB
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but it is just a reporter who is not a citizen
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tsk
[13:44] herman Bergson: Wouldnt surprise me if he stuck to his rogue theory
[13:44] CB Axel: Like the Puerto Ricans, Gemma.
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh me neither
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we will see
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well
[13:45] herman Bergson: Then there still is Mueller :-)
[13:45] CB Axel: Well, that's all the Trump/Republican bashing I want to do today.
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks i will go do a fishing contest
[13:45] CB Axel: I'll see you all next week.
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes cb
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): did you try the new linden realms game???
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[13:45] herman Bergson: OK CB...
[13:45] herman Bergson: Horrible game
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is
[13:45] CB Axel: Why is is horrible?
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): heard they had ruined it
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i finally got out of the swamp
[13:46] herman Bergson: No fun at all
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now in the mountain
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i will never do it again
[13:46] CB Axel: I'm terrible at those games, so I don't even try any more.
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i loved the realms
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i don't play them either
[13:46] herman Bergson: Madpea games are much better
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was very relaxing running around chasing crystals
[13:46] CB Axel: OK. I'll see you Tuesday. °͜°
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes that i liked at least
[13:46] herman Bergson: How exciting, Gemma :-)))
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye CB:)
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: thank you
[13:47] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and Class!

[13:47] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

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