Friday, April 16, 2021

917: Into History....

 From the time homo sapiens became the dominant species, which manifested itself in cave paintings, the history of knowledge began.

  

In the previous lecture we learned how the transition from hunter-gatherer to farmer changed the life of homo sapiens forever.

  

Maybe the greatest impact had the emergence of private property. and thence all its consequences.

  

The transition from what we call Prehistory to the period that we are used to call Antiquity, coincides with the transition from the Stone Age to the Bronze Age. 

   

The invention of writing and script is usually taken as a turning point. 

  

However, this invention takes place at different moments in different regions. In Mesopotamia around 3200 BC., 

  

In Egypt around 3000 BC., in China around 1200 BC. and in Central America between 1000 and 600 BC. 

  

We split Antiquity in two periods: early antiquity, from 3000 to 600 BC, in which the search for patterns is central, 

  

and classical antiquity, from 600 BC. up to 500 AD, in which the search for principles is central. 

   

Maybe you remember, who stood around 600 BC on the doorstep to the new era: Thales of Miletus (c. 624  – c. 548 BC),

  

the first known Greek mathematician, astronomer and pre-Socratic philosopher from Miletus in Ionia, Asia Minor.

   

Thales is recognized for breaking from the use of mythology to explain the world and the universe, and instead 

  

explaining natural objects and phenomena by naturalistic theories and hypotheses, in a precursor to modern science. 

   

In early antiquity, Mesopotamia, especially the Kingdom of Babylonia, is the region with the most attention to systematic knowledge. 

   

The first Mesopotamia civilizations already used from 3200 BC.on the cuneiform for administrative purposes. 

   

The script is named for the characteristic wedge-shaped impressions (Latin: cuneus) which form its signs. It developed and distributed quickly and around 2700 BC.

  

 it was used throughout the region for recording agreements, contracts and treaties on clay tablets by specially trained clogs. 

  

If you focus on the emergence and development of cuneiform, you can get an idea of how important private property must have been for early homo sapiens.

    

He even developed an administrative system for the registration of his increasing mountain of property in grain and cattle, which he was probably collecting.


From approximately 2600 BC. laws, dictionaries, sky observations, astrological signs, chronicles,  weather observations, mathematical calculations and medical diagnoses were also recorded on clay tablets. 


Thus emerged, what we can call the first knowledge disciplines. Is it also the period in which greed and social inequality emerged......?

    

Thank you for your attention again....


  

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
Rens Bod: "Een Wereld vol Patronen".  2019

The Discussion


[13:19] herman Bergson: My idea is that private property, the need for security and greed are a nice combination psychologically

[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well thats for sure

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice i don't know though

[13:20] CB Axel: I think hunter-gatherers could be greedy, too.

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well sure i have my own things

[13:20] CB Axel: They could block others from the best plants.

[13:21] CB Axel: They could collect food and hide it from others.

[13:21] herman Bergson: Sharing their game seems to me more common for them CB

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess

[13:21] CB Axel: Private property is just an extension of that.

[13:21] CB Axel: I'm sure there were as many greedy people then as there are now.

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sharing only with the group they belong to

[13:21] CB Axel: We just reward them now.

[13:22] herman Bergson: true

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:23] herman Bergson: I wonder where this greed comes from psychologically....the unwillingness to share

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): fear

[13:24] herman Bergson: fear...yes...an important human drive

[13:24] CB Axel: Hunger and the desire to prevent hunger?

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the fear of starvation

[13:24] herman Bergson: snd thence the fear of starvation...yes

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and nowadays the fear of being out of toilet paper

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:25] oola Neruda: the young students in a rough neighborhood in Chicago as the teacher one question over and over...every year.....

[13:25] herman Bergson: ^_^

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at leat THAT hoarding have stopped!

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for now

[13:25] oola Neruda: is it ok to steal food if you are hungry?

[13:25] herman Bergson: a real question, oola

[13:26] oola Neruda: to them it IS

[13:26] herman Bergson: if the hunger is caused by greedy behavior of others.........

[13:26] oola Neruda: but you can see how they feel about it...

[13:27] herman Bergson: if the hunger is caused because they don't get any change to earn a decent wage....

[13:27] oola Neruda: yes

[13:27] oola Neruda: that is the reason

[13:27] herman Bergson: because they are discriminated for instance

[13:27] oola Neruda: or parents cannot get a decent paying job

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well if it wasn't for money everyone could have a decent meal i guess, like in Africa where many starve

[13:27] oola Neruda: or might be in jail

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however food production in general might be an issue

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but money cause more harm then good for sure

[13:28] oola Neruda: they end up living in what is called a food desert

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and we all need food to live

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all life needs nutrition

[13:29] oola Neruda: grocery stores do not open near them... rough neighborhoods

[13:29] herman Bergson: What fascinates me is that you can see that all issues we are facing today started already so early in our history

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and water

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:29] herman Bergson: As Beertje remarked last Tuesday...man  has never changed

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): circumstances have changed, not human kind

[13:30] herman Bergson: Maybe that is true in a psychological sense.....

[13:30] herman Bergson: yes...and man is more willing to control his primary instincts in a well organized society

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): controlling an primary instinct is veryhard to do

[13:32] oola Neruda: it might be the basis for what we call religion... to make life more equal...

[13:32] herman Bergson: it is what we call civilization today

[13:32] herman Bergson: I'd say that we made some progress there

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and civilized people versus savages

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): those those terms

[13:33] herman Bergson: We accept Human Rights, well....not everyone but a lot do

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:33] CB Axel: I don't see religion as making people more equal.

[13:33] oola Neruda: read the Iliad... by homer...

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the opposite

[13:33] oola Neruda: see what man can really do and be

[13:33] theo Velde is online.

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): woman have not many rights in religion

[13:34] oola Neruda: only human.... sigh

[13:34] herman Bergson: it is not just religion.....

[13:35] oola Neruda: right

[13:35] herman Bergson: it is the inclination of homo sapiens to cling to ideologies, which he seess as the solution and answer to his problems and existential questions

[13:36] oola Neruda: or how to control others so they can get what they want

[13:36] herman Bergson: homo sapiens wants ANSWERS......which brings us back to existential fear

[13:37] oola Neruda: and security

[13:37] herman Bergson: Betrand Russell saw as the task of philosophy to learn people to live with the certainty of uncertainty

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:38] oola Neruda: fight makes might

[13:38] herman Bergson: ideologies offer a pseudo certainty and homo sapiens loves it

[[13:39] herman Bergson: Like Marx said....opium for the people is it

[13:39] oola Neruda: nods

[13:40] herman Bergson: Well....we have a weekend ahead...so I suggest we all get a big joint and have a smoke :-)

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ehhe

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): PUFF PUFF

[13:41] herman Bergson: And we can dream of all the answers we then see....

[13:41] CB Axel: I wish.

[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum: cheers with red wine:-)

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess

[13:41] CB Axel: I live in a very Republican state. Nothing is legal here.

[13:41] herman Bergson: A good alternative Bergie ^_^

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): coffeeshops are closed....

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mmm yum

[13:42] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we can't buy weet:(

[13:42] herman Bergson: It is sold in other places Beertje...believe me :-)

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes I know:)))

[13:43] herman Bergson: ok...

[13:43] herman Bergson: Thank you all again today.....for your participation

[13:43] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:43] oola Neruda: thank you, Herman

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): looks for my black plupp)

[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class!

[13:44] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman and class.

Wednesday, April 14, 2021

916: The Prehistoric Legacy..........

The biggest change that has ever occurred in humanity's history has undoubtedly been the transition from a food collecting into a food-producing culture. 

  

After having led a nomadic existence for 2.5 million years, people went to a sedentary life almost anywhere in the world. 

  

This transformation was at lightning speed on a macro-historical scale around 10,000 BC.


 Man has started producing food, including wheat, barley and peas, in the area known as the Fertile Crescent, a continuous area in the Middle East 

  

that includes Egypt, Israel, Palestine, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran and Turkey. 

     

Everywhere a peasant culture was established, the hunters-gatherers came in the tribulation. 

   

Around 7000 BC agriculture and cattle breeding have scattered from Anatolia to Palestine and Iran. 

   

Around the same time, a farmer's existence with corn as the oldest grown crop emerges also in Central America (approx. 7500 BC) independently. 

  

Around 3500 BC we find agriculture and cattle breeding virtually anywhere in the world. 

    

A radical other society emerges, where people settled in villages and live in houses. 

  

Man himself becomes 'domesticated' and becomes part of a hierarchical society with greater social inequality.

   

This whole historical process can be attributed to the ability to recognize patterns. As I mentioned in a previous lecture, this is not a. unique ability of homo sapiens.

   

Most animals rely on the same ability, but only homo sapiens added the ability to generalize to pattern recognition, He was able to formulate principles.

    

Another interesting observation is, that this process occurred independently from each other in several places on earth.

   

Of course, this wasn't a transformation that took place in a period of 10 years, for instance. It took a tenth of thousands of years. 

   

For some reason, this specific ability of homo sapiens almost inevitably has led to this transition all over the world.

  

However, it is not a law of nature. It didn't happen everywhere. In the Amazone tribes were found who lived in the same way as our prehistoric ancestors.

   

You could ask the question: WHY did those tribes through the ages never move on to an agricultural existence?

   

And WHY did other members of the species homo sapiens did settle in villages and settled farming?

   

And most important this transition introduced one of the biggest problems of our time: INEQUALITY.

   

The gap between poor and rich, between the one who owns all the cattle and the one who has only one cow.


And what I forgot to add to this last statement......with this transition man discovered private property.

   

If you imagine that the problem of a fair distribution of wealth and resources among the people on this world has its roots in the Stone Age.......

    

Thank you for your attention......

   

  

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
Rens Bod: "Een Wereld vol Patronen".  2019

The Discussion


[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so man has never changes I guess

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and I suppose never will be

[13:21] herman Bergson: In fact you are right

[13:22] herman Bergson: In a way man has tried with communism to abolish private property...it wasn't a success

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nope

[13:23] herman Bergson: but it is interesting to see how the nomad changed into a farmer

[13:23] herman Bergson: and thus created his own land and property

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe it was by accident

[13:24] CB Axel: I read a book about why some cultures changed and some didn't.

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): someone saw the crop grow and thought,, hey....that's funny

[13:24] CB Axel: I can't find the book now, but it was very interesting.

[13:24] herman Bergson: I think it is because of our ability to see patterns....

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that might just so be

[13:25] herman Bergson: yes Beertje....you plant a seed ...it grows ..bears fruit...you harvest.....seed again and so on....

[13:25] CB Axel: Different South Pacific cultures

[13:25] CB Axel: were studied

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and then they said...Mien...make a bread for me

[13:26] herman Bergson: The point is...it didn't happen with all people...as I said....the tribes in the Amazone.....

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and brew me some BEEEEER!

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yum!

[13:26] herman Bergson: But imagine....

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahhaa

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:27] herman Bergson: You live in a rainforest.....it contains an abundance of food all days of the year....

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so no need to have farmers

[13:27] herman Bergson: why becoming a farmer there?

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ask Bolsonaro

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think is was a huge mistake to become a farmer

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now im no rainforest expert but i eat loads of tropical fruit

[13:28] herman Bergson: Well..it caused a lot of problems indeed....especially health problems

[13:29] herman Bergson: Living together in houses in closed spaces together with animals

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): asking for problems

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:29] herman Bergson: Like COVID in those days also a lot of diseases were transferred from animal  on humans

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and those people lived together in one big room with the animals

[13:30] herman Bergson: But it is a slow process....

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): inhaling the smell of pig shit, YUM!

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)

[13:30] herman Bergson: you start producing food......this makes the population increase.....so you have to produce more food and so on....

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that is not too bad:)

[13:30] herman Bergson: homo sapiens was trapped

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a fire in the house is worse...no fresh air

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:32] herman Bergson: those prehistoric people were heavy smokers indeed Beertje :-)

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oh yes

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): COUGH COUGH!

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders again)

[13:33] herman Bergson: And what was the case with those South Pacific cultures CB?

[13:35] CB Axel: Whether they were hunter/gathers or farmers depended on the resources available and the threats they had to deal with.

[13:35] CB Axel: Mostly threats from other cultures

[13:36] CB Axel: I can't remember a lot of details, and I can't find the book now.

[13:36] herman Bergson: So, that people became farmers was mainly caused by the circumstances....I guess

[13:36] CB Axel: I don't even remember if it's a physical book or if it's on my tablet.

[13:36] CB Axel nods

[13:36] herman Bergson: It is in style with Darwinian evolution.......

[13:37] herman Bergson: the direction evolution takes is just random

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no pattern?

[13:37] herman Bergson: and our culture is the result of these random changes

[13:38] herman Bergson: ahh...evolution has a pattern Beertje....

[13:38] herman Bergson: driven by the principle of survival

[13:38] CB Axel: But the actual changes in DNA are random.

[13:39] CB Axel: Just the useful changes survive.

[13:39] herman Bergson: But why A survives and B doesn't is  randomly dependent on the circumstances

[13:39] herman Bergson: indeed CB

[13:39] herman Bergson: and that could depend on changes in the environment, for instance

[13:41] CB Axel: Maybe man will evolve into bodies with long legs for wading through rising water levels. :)

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:41] herman Bergson: or it can be an interaction between the environment and our ability of pattern recognition

[13:42] herman Bergson: I think man will choose for boats CB :-)

[13:42] herman Bergson: A world turned into a Venetia :-)

[13:42] herman Bergson: Venice

[13:43] CB Axel: Venice isn't even Venice any more. It's becoming Atlantis.

[13:43] herman Bergson: ^_^

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahah

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well its on its way

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): New Atlantis

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hope it don't turn out that way

[13:44] herman Bergson: Well tie to move on in history :-)

[13:45] herman Bergson: Let's see what the farmers did after this :-))

[13:45] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation :-)

[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)))

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: as always, very interesting! thanks Herman and class

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:46] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman and class. :) 

Sunday, April 11, 2021

915: In The Beginning......

In the previous lecture, we discussed the notions of pattern and principle. We are inclined to assume that the underlying principle is an explanation of the pattern.

   

However, it is another description of the pattern with the advantage, that yo can use it to predict new patterns.

   

A second important issue is how we handle the WHY - question. To keep the discussion clear we have to watch out for confusion.

   

WHY did you do that? THE CAUSE: because I am hopelessly in love with you. Clear hormones at work here.

   

THE PURPOSE: I just wanted to get your attention. You see, we constantly have to check whether we are questioning a cause or a goal, a purpose.

   

In this project we assume, that the search for patterns is as old as humanity itself and probably even older. 

   

The perception of animals must be based to a large extent on pattern recognition. One pattern means ..... there is prey, the other ... danger! 

   

More than 2.5 million years ago, the homo habilis started making increasingly complex stone tools. 

   

And about 500,000 years ago, Homo erectus scratched a geometric zigzag pattern on a shell, the meaning of which is unclear. 

   

The control of fire also dates from the same time. We are then in the Paleolithic, the Old Stone Age, which runs from about 2.5 million years ago to 12,000 years ago, 

  

when agriculture and cattle breeding began, and the New Stone Age, or Neolithic, began. 

   

While Homo erectus had spread from Africa across Europe and Asia more than a million years ago, Homo sapiens hid in a remote corner of Africa. 

  

About 70,000 years ago, this "wise humanoid" also began to populate the other continents.

  

About this time, something special happened: the homo sapiens displayed a burst of creativity in all areas of pattern-seeking. 

    

We see this in the form of the many systematic cave paintings, the registration of the phases of the moon, the production of ever more refined tools and the development of a proto-writing. 

     

Some historians speak of a cognitive revolution in the late Paleolithic. What exactly happened during this cognitive revolution is unclear, 

  

as is the answer to the question of whether we should not speak of development rather than a revolution. 

   

But it is undeniable that the cognitive development of homo sapiens gained momentum then, and that it was crucial to the history of knowledge. 

   

At the end of the Paleolithic, of the many human species, only the Homo sapiens remain, with a last remnant of Neanderthals leaving the field some 34,000 years ago. 


And with that begins our history of knowledge.

   

Thank you for your attention again..... 

  

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
Rens Bod: "Een Wereld vol Patronen".  2019

The Discussion


[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:22] Lady Jane Grey (theiarhea):

[13:23] herman Bergson: The question that fascinates me the most is this cognitive revolution....or more....the moment that the homo sapiens became self conscious.....

[13:24] oola Neruda: it is interesting to read the different "interpretations: of archeologists when they dig up tools, items, and, especially, discover the cave paintings

[13:24] herman Bergson: Somewhere in evolution an organism said to himself/herself...HERE I AM

[13:25] herman Bergson: It is a history in itself oola....in 1878 when they discovered such cave paintings archeologists didn't believe they were more than 35.000 years old...

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): amazing

[13:25] herman Bergson: you know....it was fake, they thought

[13:26] oola Neruda: and some related them to the hunt... and others related them to ceremonies conducted by a "priestly" kind of person... to ensure luck on the hunt

[13:26] oola Neruda: were they not just painting the animals for the heck of it

[13:26] oola Neruda: ?

[13:26] herman Bergson: What they mean we don't know...simple as that

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah yes there are supposedly some different theories about these

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I think art or art sake

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like when i try create abstract art with my Wacom tablet

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or similar stuff

[13:27] oola Neruda: regarding.... i am here..... the handprints seem to relate to that

[13:27] herman Bergson: Maybe you should look deeper.....

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just out of the mind

[13:27] herman Bergson: Just try to imagen.....

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but also i already know what abstract art is so i have stuff to go from

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but how did it all start

[13:28] herman Bergson: you discover for the first time in life that you are able to depict something you have seen...something that is important to you....

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:28] herman Bergson: what feeling must that have been?

[13:28] oola Neruda: did they think animals could think... or have private lives like them?

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): quite amazing i guess

[13:29] oola Neruda: feel guilty for eatting them?

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): questions we will never answer i think

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): probably someone discovered that coal or similar like chalk make patterns when scraped across a surface and they it went from there

[13:30] herman Bergson: I have heard stories about indians that killed animals for food and apologized to the slain animals...as a kind of ritual

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes

[13:30] oola Neruda: they watered down ocre with spit... and blew it against the wall for the handprints

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa ok

[13:30] herman Bergson: a respect for nature

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good hunters still do  that

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not like Bolsenaro and his bulldozer gang BRRRRRRBBBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRMMMBLLLLL

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): plowing everything they see down and set fire to the rest

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): luckily most of uss still try be good to nature

[13:31] Lady Jane Grey (theiarhea): the writing tool didnt make the line. the user of the tool made the line.  when the user of the tool saw the line they made, they had a "lightbulb" moment.

[13:32] oola Neruda: not ocre... duhhh... but a red mineral i cannot think of the name

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but it now takes just one or a few skew minded and some heavy machinery to make a total mess

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): often irrecoverable

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like HEY I CAN DRAW WITH THIS!

[13:33] oola Neruda: even breathing in a cave with paintings ... leads to their ruin

[13:33] Lady Jane Grey (theiarhea): aborginals of the west burned down land to use it

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what a discovery must that have been...the knowlegde that one can draw:)

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true

[13:33] herman Bergson: I think so too Beertje

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in eaarly days in usa farmers took down whole forests

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well sure clear land is one thing but shoveling down acre after acre with no regard to the ecosystem

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess we did similar stuff back then

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however today we know more

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that was only 300 years ago

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): should know

[13:34] Lady Jane Grey (theiarhea): yes, gemma, as did the aboriginals before the arrival of the European farmers

[13:34] CB Axel: Who ever was the first to draw probably still had a parent who asked, "What are you doing that for? Why can't you be a great hunter like your brother?"

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:35] herman Bergson: Maybe there was such a parent indeed CB :-))

[13:35] Lady Jane Grey (theiarhea): haha cb!

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahah

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): those parents still exist

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): art is not always understood

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): could it be that they were afraid of the paintings?

[13:37] herman Bergson: Art is an experience....you get it or you don't :-)

[13:37] CB Axel: Maybe, Beertje.

[13:37] oola Neruda: it helps to have a knowledge of art history... to "get it"

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or liike (before: Dont sit in front of that computer, go and do some creative stuff! - today: programming and digital art is one of the most lucrative jobs out there)

[13:37] CB Axel: Maybe they thought the artist was somehow harnessing the spirit of the animal.

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes CB

[13:38] oola Neruda: that is part of the \"priest" theory

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like how you once believed that a camera captured part of your soul

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): did they already know what a 'priest' was?

[13:38] Chloe Goodliffe is offline.

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think so

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think there were shamens from the very beginning

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybee

[13:39] herman Bergson: Many theories and we'll never know the answers, because from those times there wasn't a written legacy

[13:39] oola Neruda: and the guy who went around shooting ...literally... people with his rigged up camera ... to see if he could photograph the spirit leaving the body

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): once people realized who they were they needed answers to why

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and it all began

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa i have seen a film recently of this

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): don't remember what the camera was called

[13:40] herman Bergson: Indeed Gemma.....homo sapiens was able to ask the WHY question

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:40] oola Neruda: and when they decided a means to count

[13:40] herman Bergson: which cognitively means that  he had an understanding of causality

[13:41] herman Bergson: cognitively

[13:41] oola Neruda: the first emporer of China was "anointed" because he thought up how make a map.... and he also tried to do something about the rivers flooding

[13:42] oola Neruda: order out of chaos

[13:42] CB Axel: Early farmers noticed the pattern of rivers flooding and figured out how to exploit it.

[13:42] herman Bergson: in other words....recognizing patterns ^_^

[13:43] oola Neruda: yes

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:43] herman Bergson: A nice conclusion of our discussion I would say :-)

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very good

[13:43] CB Axel: It not just important to recognize a pattern. One must know how to use it.

[13:43] CB Axel: :)

[13:44] herman Bergson: So...unless you still have that super important remark or question ot ask.......?

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:44] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)

[13:44] CB Axel: And now, a message from John Boehner...

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh

[1[13:44] Lady Jane Grey (theiarhea): Thank you, very much, Professor

[13:44] CB Axel: You have to have sound on to hear it. :)

[13:46] CB Axel: Bye bye, everyone. :)