Wednesday, January 30, 2019

756: Who is Joseph Schumpeter.....?

It wouldn't surprise me, if you never have heard of Joseph Schumpeter. He died in 1950 in the US, while he was teaching at Harvard University.
Today, Schumpeter has a following outside standard textbook economics, in areas such as economic policy, management studies, industrial policy, and the study of innovation. 
Schumpeter was probably the first scholar to develop theories about entrepreneurship.  
When you're not an economist it isn't easy to understand all ins and outs of the theories of Schumpeter, but I'll give it a try.
"Can Capitalism survive? No. I do not think it can.” Thus opens Schumpeter’s prologue to a section 
of his 1942 book, "Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy" pg 61. One might think, on the basis of the quote, that Schumpeter was a Marxist.
But that is not the case. What generates profits? Production, consumption and exploiting the people who generate the profits, the workers.
Marx would say: that is the moment that the proletariat will revolt and take the means of production in their own hands and remove the exploiters.
That is not how Schumpeter looked at the economic process. His main thesis was that the capitalist system is essentially static: 
for employers and employees as well as for customers, the system is stable without gaining profit, and no investments can be made.
Employees earn just enough for their labor, and their wages are based on the costs of producing and selling goods. 
Profit can therefore only come from innovation so that the production costs go down for a short time,
until the competition overtakes the company, but then the profit can be used for further investments, c.q. innovations. 
Two conclusions follow from this. The first is that capitalists, the owners of the means of production, are not themselves the driving force of capitalism, 
but entrepreneurs who invent new techniques or machines through which goods can be produced more cheaply.
The second consequence of Schumpeter's thesis is that profit made by entrepreneurs are temporary. 
Any innovation would be followed by others in the same industry or trade sector, and eventually, stability would emerge again. 
For Schumpeter, this meant that capitalism was unavoidably marked by cycles of progress and stagnation.
The entrepreneur disturbs the equilibrium and is the prime cause of economic development, which proceeds in cyclic fashion along several time scales. 

Schumpeter believed, like some other economists, that the economy develops itself in cycles of Expansion (there is an innovation),
Boom ( the new product is selling with big profits), Recession (other companies market the same product), 
Depression (no one is making a profit anymore on the product) innovative....
It is as if I hear my Prime Minister talk about the economy and what we should do and so on and so on.
This is the perfect capitalist system, but it won't survive eventually Schumpeter said. We'll have a look at that next lecture....
Thank you for your attention again.....
The floor is yours.....:-)

The Discussion

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:19] Cegorach (epaphroditos): Many thanks Herman!
[13:19] herman Bergson: you're welcome :-)
[13:19] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...feel free
[13:20] herman Bergson: What I find interesting is his idea that economic growth is driven y innovation and not by increasing consumption
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): isn't it all about consumption these days?
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa i think i agree with some of the theory, a combination maybe
[13:21] herman Bergson: not according to Schumpeter, Beertje...that is not driving our economy
[13:21] herman Bergson: of course you need consumers....
[13:21] CB Axel: The main reason, it seems to me, is the only real way to increase consumption is to increase the population.
[13:22] Cegorach (epaphroditos): It seems to me that Schumpeter is suggesting that economy; on both the small scale and the large scale has its ups and downs; and that short periods of depression eventually breed new era's of prosperity. Would you say this holds true for American at the end of the great depression; and that such an event might -need- to occur to bring about new economic growth for the country?
[13:22] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause everything seems indeed today to be about what we call "wear and throw away" and buy new things alll time (with ever-increasing mountains of waste as result)
[13:23] herman Bergson: Well Cegorach....I have seen a timeline of economic cycles somewhere...
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Apple for ex want everyone to throw away their iPhones as soon as the next model arrives even they work perfectly
[13:23] herman Bergson: and indeed this cycle seems to exist
[13:23] CB Axel: I think what he's saying is that continual economic growth isn't possible.
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agree
[13:24] herman Bergson: Well... continual innovation is possible...
[13:24] Honorary Puddle (chastitydispute): Yes, but wouldn't iPhone exactly be the point for innovation? It is not that people tend to buy same old model. It is that they buy ''next'' generation model.
[13:24] CB Axel: Small ups and downs seem preferable to me than great increases in the economy followed by deep depressions.
[13:24] herman Bergson: We have an obsession with innovation indeed....always the newer model...
[13:24] Honorary Puddle (chastitydispute): Which.. Perhaps isn't huge innovation but consumption greatly relies on innovation these days, at least i would say. New flavours, new fashion trends, new models of same old electronics. Etc, etc
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that's also true, its a combination of that inventive cycle and the strive for ever greater (and uneccesary) consumption
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we need to find a balance and be happy there id say
[13:25] herman Bergson: I agree Charity....
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita :-)
[13:26] Cegorach (epaphroditos): Excellent, thank you Herman, that is most enlightening. I admit to being something of a poorly educated American- so out of curiosity what would examples of this cycle be from your own countries history, would you say?
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however its indeed important to drive development forward
[13:26] herman Bergson: Where in history did it get us...the need of bigger, better, faster?
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as long its for a good thing, technical innovations ect
[13:27] herman Bergson: We had this Golden Age in the 17th century
[13:27] herman Bergson: then the industrial development in the 19th century
[13:28] herman Bergson: There are differences of opinion about how long periods in these cycles last...
[13:28] roos Gartner is offline.
[13:29] herman Bergson: they range from 3 to 5 years (Kitchin) to 30 to50 years....
[13:29] herman Bergson: I have no detailed knowledge of Dutch economics through the ages :-))
[13:30] Cegorach (epaphroditos): Thank you! This is fascinating; not too many opportunities to study Dutch history in America, let alone its economic history.
[13:30] herman Bergson: Kondratiev even talks about a duration of 60 years per cycle
[13:31] CB Axel: I wonder how much the cycle was effective after plagues.
[13:31] herman Bergson: aren't pulling a leg, aren't you :-)
[13:31] Honorary Puddle (chastitydispute): In fact, if we're talking strictly about Dutch, there wasn't great impact of plague here.
[13:31] Cegorach (epaphroditos): I'm actually extremely serious... history isn't taught much in schools here.
[13:31] CB Axel: I've felt for a while that we're overdue for a good old-fashioned plague.
[13:32] Cegorach (epaphroditos): When it is its generally very American-centric and even then doesn't often do a good job of that.
[13:32] Honorary Puddle (chastitydispute): According to various science studies we kinda are CB haha
[13:32] CB Axel: European history isn't taught much in the US.
[13:32] herman Bergson: American history is taught over here as is about China and the rest of the world :-)
[13:33] CB Axel: We are taught nothing of Asian or African history.
[13:33] CB Axel: And South American.
[13:33] herman Bergson: I know about the Founding Fathers, General Lee...the way Indians were treated...we call it war crimes now and so on
[13:34] herman Bergson: But here we are going off topic...:-)
[13:34] CB Axel: I think if we were taught all that we'd have to admit how badly we've treated other countries and have messed up their governments.
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the problem is that the US is just about yes Us and the rest of the world, i have heard many believe for ex Sweden and Switzerland to be the very same place
[13:35] herman Bergson: And your own native inhabitants, CB
[13:35] CB Axel nods
[13:35] CB Axel: Don't forget, though, our founding fathers who started all this were Europeans. :-)
[13:35] herman Bergson: topic....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:36] herman Bergson: What strikes me the most about the inhabitants of the US is that they mainly believe in white supremacy....
[13:36] CB Axel: I don't
[13:36] herman Bergson: or at least poses like that
[13:37] herman Bergson: and what you never hear about is how these white land thieves marginalized the original inhabitants of that continent
[13:37] herman Bergson: I is all history....
[13:37] Cegorach (epaphroditos): That's a bit of a misconception; it's almost important to point out that Caucasians aren't the majority in every state. Their not in California anymore, for example.
[13:38] herman Bergson: But I don't see any reflection on it or respect for the truth
[13:38] CB Axel: I think we've lost a lot of wisdom by not listening to native Americans as well as Africans and Asians.
[13:38] CB Axel: Cegorach, I'm not sure white men have ever been in the majority in the US.
[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Cegorach....that is a good thing
[13:39] CB Axel: if you add women in, then yes. Whites have been in the majority, but women only get counted when the men want to make a point. :-)
[13:39] herman Bergson: All that is happening in the US these days is the result of the white men's frustration, is my opinion
[13:39] Cegorach (epaphroditos): Also what you Europeans would generally perceive as White Supremacists more has its roots in Protestantism discrimination towards Catholic minorities. Groups like the KKK started in response to what they saw as an invading tide of White, Catholic Europeans afterall.
[13:39] herman Bergson: I vote for Kamla Harris.....Indian - Jamaican blood ! :-))
[13:39] herman Bergson: Kamala
[13:40] herman Bergson: True Cegorach!
[13:40] herman Bergson: Sorry...I let myself go....
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:41] CB Axel: I don't vote for anyone based on their gender or race. I vote for policies and a candidates ability to deliver on those policies.
[13:41] herman Bergson: I watch too much MSNBC and other channels  these days :-))
[13:41] CB Axel: :-)
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:41] herman Bergson: So agai..I apologize to go off topic too much for a moment
[13:41] Cegorach (epaphroditos): No worries! It was a good discussion.
[13:42] herman Bergson: It is just that it all worries me so much.....
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in what way Herman?
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): way
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:42] CB Axel: It's too early for me to be thinking about who to vote for in almost 2 years.
[13:42] herman Bergson: A president disrupting what has been created in more than 70 years of peace
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it should go off topic a little at least
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now and then
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) whispers:
[13:42] CB Axel: I'd like to see how the people we voted for a couple months ago do in their jobs.
[13:43] herman Bergson: Just the idea to leave NATO for instance Beertje!
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:43] herman Bergson: an historical disaster and the best present ever to Putin
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Putin wants chaos in Europe
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 2 assholes patting each others backs
[13:44] herman Bergson: Pelosi is already publicly wondering whether Putin has something on T., financialy, personally
[13:44] CB Axel: And in the US, Beertje.
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes...that is the whole game
[13:44] CB Axel: It's looking more and more like that, Herman.
[13:44] CB Axel: Putin owns Trump.
[13:44] Cegorach (epaphroditos): Trump isn't as dangerous as most people make him out to be, he's not a warmonger at least. He's too self interest in his economic success for that.
[13:44] CB Axel: And would like to own the whole US.
[13:44] Cegorach (epaphroditos): Not that I support Trump mind you, but I don't really see him starting wars anytime soon.
[13:45] herman Bergson: I like to believe that too, Cegorach :-))
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he will
[13:45] CB Axel: He might provoke some other idiot to start one.
[13:45] Cegorach (epaphroditos): ^ True!
[13:45] CB Axel: Like Un
[13:45] herman Bergson: Now we have the Venezuela issue......
[13:45] CB Axel: I mean Kim.
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i hope for sure not, there are enough wars already
[13:46] herman Bergson: I really wait and wait for the Mueller report....
[13:46] Cegorach (epaphroditos): Wars are at an all-time low, historically speaking. Their becoming less and less profitable.
[13:46] herman Bergson: That will blow up the whole Trump family....
[13:46] CB Axel: The only reason anyone in the US cares about Venezuela is because they have oil. Right?
[13:47] herman Bergson: To small a production to really mean something
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): say the same, as long as there is oil they dont get a shit about the people living there but instead fully support their opressor
[13:47] herman Bergson: Indeed Cegorach!
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): awful
[13:47] herman Bergson: Except in poor countries....
[13:48] herman Bergson: so you can blow up the Middle East at low costs....onle bricks and cement needed for rebuilding :-)
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): - all the dead people
[13:48] herman Bergson: except for one or two more metropolitan cities
[13:48] herman Bergson: So no damage to Damscus please :-)
[13:49] herman Bergson: Damascus
[13:49] herman Bergson: Anyway :-)
[13:49] herman Bergson: Economics is driven by innovation...that is what bruings us our prosperity :-)
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i totally agree with that
[13:50] herman Bergson: That is for now our counclusion :-)
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): inovatio and development is important in general
[13:50] herman Bergson: And yet capitalism wont hold says Schumpeter.....
[13:50] herman Bergson: we'll see next Thursday what he means by that
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:50] CB Axel: I'll be interested to hear more about Schumpeter.
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): me too
[13:51] Honorary Puddle (chastitydispute): Dun dun dun. Looking forward to the next class!
[13:51] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again...
[13:51] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:51] Cegorach (epaphroditos): Excellent meeting you all; I'm looking forward to the next class.
[13:51] CB Axel: See you all on Thursday.
[13:51] herman Bergson: You were brilliant again today :-))
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa cu then
[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye all for npw
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Bejiita
[13:51] Honorary Puddle (chastitydispute): Tot ziens!

[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you, world! It is always so interesting to follow the discussion. i like this class, danke Herman & Class

Sunday, January 27, 2019

755: What comes next.......?

It is understandable, that, when the world is on fire, people begin to wonder, what has to be done when the fire is over.
That, of course happened during World War II. There were published four books that interest us here.
"Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy" by Joseph Schumpeter (1942), "Diagnosis of Our Time" by Karl Mannheim (1943), 
"The Road to Serfdom" by Friedrich Hayek (1944) and" The Open Society and its Enemies" by Karl Popper (1945).
It was one of those coincidences of the century that in the war four books  of exiles from the old double monarchy of Austria-Hungary were published, 
all four of which looked forward to the kind of society that man should strive for once the war is over.
And all four of them saw it as a most important task to compare the pros and cons of fascism and communism, liberalism and socialism, capitalism and democracy.
Let's first look at "Diagnosis of Our Time" by Karl Mannheim (b. Károly Mannheim, 27 March 1893 – 9 January 1947) was a German sociologist, 
who was influential in the first half of the 20th century, was a founding father of classical sociology, and was a founder of the sociology of knowledge.
According to him, after this war there was no way back to the laisser-faire order of society, 
and that war itself produced a silent revolution by paving the way for a new type of planned order.
Mannheim assumed as starting point the 'planned society'. For him, the old capitalism that had caused the stock market crash and the depression was dead. 
He of course had witnessed ideologies that went so far in their planning of society, like Stalinism and fascism, that they became inhumane.
Instead, according to him, after the war a new society, "The Great Society" as he called it, could only be achieved  
through a form of planning that did not destroy freedom, as it had happened in totalitarian states, 
but which took into account the latest developments in psychology and sociology, and especially in psychoanalysis. 
According to him, the Great Society was one in which individual freedom was maintained, but in which everyone was aware of how societies functioned 
and in what sense modern, complex, technological societies differed from peasant societies. 
He therefore concentrated on two aspects of contemporary society: youth and education on the one hand, religion on the other. 
It is not really clear to me what he had in mind regarding this "planning of society", however the main theme in his sociological theories was the concept of ideology.
For Mannheim, “ideology” meant the system of thought held by ruling groups in the society, which was maintained in order to preserve the status quo. 
So I guess he expected a possibility to change the dominating ideology in a society by educating the youth in the "right" way,
that is by teaching them the scientific facts of sociology and psychology. He probably had not yet thought of the idea,
that these sciences themselves are embedded in a certain ideology themselves and thence not value-free and objective, 
which will become the subject of fierce debates later in the 20th century.
Thank you for your attention again......

Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Peter Watson: A Terrible Beauty (2000)

The Discussion

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:18] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:18] herman Bergson: Take your time to digest this :-))
[13:19] herman Bergson: ~From our present point of view, I'd say that you see here a believe in science.....
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): knows i read something of that sort a long time ago
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or critiques
[13:19] herman Bergson: Make everyone sociologically skilled and full of psycho-analytic insights and you'll change the ruling ideology for the better
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we wish
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): everyone?....not possible
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes...looking at the present situation, I think Mannheim was wrong
[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes that too, Beertje
[13:21] herman Bergson: But that is the problem with certain people....they assumer that everyone thinks and reasons at the same level as they do
[13:21] Anna Adamant Albion (anna.adamant) is online.
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and they don't
[13:22] herman Bergson: no
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we all think different at least a little
[13:22] CB Axel: I'm glad we don't all think the same.
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not all have the skills to learn
[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita and on the other hand you should not underestimate others....
[13:23] herman Bergson: like....oh workers don't understand politics
[13:23] herman Bergson: the stratification of society in classes....
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa true
[13:24] herman Bergson: Like Marx did...for instance
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we need to all adapt to each other
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): noit fight each others ideas
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not
[13:24] herman Bergson: ohh and what that other fellow referring to the ELITE.....:-)
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): The elite who think they are better then everyone else yes
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the boasters
[13:25] herman Bergson: At least Mannnheim allowed quite some governmental influence on society...
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hm
[13:26] herman Bergson: I think the whole post wwwII debate on politics is about the degree of governmental influence on the many aspects of society
[13:27] herman Bergson: the liberalism - socialism debate....
[13:27] herman Bergson: GOP and Dems
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still going on
[13:27] herman Bergson: Labour and Conservatives
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma.....Mannheim might have thought  you can stop the debate by good sociological and psychological insights
[13:28] herman Bergson: I don't think so :-))
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it seems to start with the brains being different however
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): physically
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to begin with
[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma that is an interesting trend these days......
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed
[13:29] herman Bergson: formerly we had psychological explanations....
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not a trend but a scientific fact
[13:29] herman Bergson: today we have references to parts of the physical brain...
[13:30] herman Bergson: I wonder Gemma....
[13:30] herman Bergson: it assumes a certain theory about personality....
[13:30] herman Bergson: suppose in your pbrain part X fires a lot when......
[13:30] herman Bergson: in mine it doesn't.....
[13:31] herman Bergson: you are democrat.....I am republican......
[13:31] herman Bergson: so....?
[13:31] herman Bergson: End of debate.....
[13:31] herman Bergson: I cant help it to be what I my brain.....
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): nor can Trump:)))
[13:31] herman Bergson: But in my opinion that is pretty  nice nonsense....
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): google .. lots of articles on studies
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe Trump HAS NO brain
[13:32] herman Bergson: It implies that whatever I do I CAN NOT THINK  for myself....change my mind....adopt democratic views...
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least not a serious one
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): doens't democracy start with a debate?
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): should
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well yes
[13:32] herman Bergson: That is the whole point Bejiita...therefor the discussion doesn't apply to him :-)
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good point Herman
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:33] CB Axel: But if Republicans tend to be more fearful of change, which I had mentioned in an earlier class, can't we show them that there is no reason to be fearful.
[13:33] CB Axel: Can't we calm those fears and encourage them to try change?
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they cannot see it cb
[13:33] herman Bergson: For instance CB
[13:33] herman Bergson: Cant they be taught to see it, Gemma?
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i don't think they can in most cases
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some can and do
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but what about me??
[13:34] CB Axel: I think they can. I think we can show them changes that occurred in the past that were good for them.
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cant i be convinced by a republican i should change??
[13:34] herman Bergson: But that means that the moment you are born you also are affiliated with some political party....
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): less government?
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): less regulations
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ?
[13:35] CB Axel: Then we can try to convince them that the changes we want can also be good.
[13:35] herman Bergson: HAVE less government now, Gemma...:-)
[13:35] herman Bergson: isnt it a great experiment?
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i heard one guy today objecting to the number of people working in government
[13:35] CB Axel: We can also show them how less government has been bad in the past.
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): should be smaller!!!!
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): use robots
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and computers
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:35] CB Axel: I wonder what that guy does for a living.
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): think he is going to change??
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i don't know
[13:36] CB Axel: I bet he can be replaced, too.
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was on cspan callin
[13:36] herman Bergson: this is already happening everywhere
[13:36] CB Axel: Probably by an out of work government employee.
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but he may honestly believe that that is ok if he is out of work will just start a business
[13:36] herman Bergson: everywhere computers and robots replace people
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): of his own
[13:36] herman Bergson: a computer shop I guess :-))
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ignore government
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there is no climate change
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): myth
[13:37] CB Axel: I have no doubt that our government is bloated, but we need regulations.
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and we have way less now
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): looks at brexit issue
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will those people change?
[13:37] CB Axel: Every time regulations have been reduced, idiots go out and do the same thing that made us adopt regulations in the past.
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the ones who want and those who don't
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ?
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): would love to see another vote
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:38] CB Axel: Gemma, a lot of those people have changed now that they see what Brexit is like.
[13:38] herman Bergson: I havent seen a poll on that recently Gemma
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): would love to see it proved
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): another vote!!!
[13:39] CB Axel: I'm not sure the EU wants them to have another vote.
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i know
[13:39] herman Bergson: They are remarkably quiet about polls in Britain, is my impression
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Brexit i heard will cause all major companies to leave Britain, Airbus, Philips ect will all leave they said. 100000s of jobs will be lost - disaster
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not good
[13:39] CB Axel: I can't help wondering if the EU wants Brexit to go through and be a disaster.
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have not seen any
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as a lesson to the other countries maybe
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Britain will be the land of the unemployed
[13:39] herman Bergson: The EU can't  do anything anymore CB
[13:40] CB Axel: Yep
[13:40] herman Bergson: it is al in the hands of the Brits
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause no companies will want to be there
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): uk wants to keep the good things and not accept any damages
[13:40] CB Axel: I know. But I can't help thinking that they're all sitting quietly and laughing to themselves.
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ridiculous
[13:40] herman Bergson: But here too you see the debate about how much may a government interfere with processes in society
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks they have a lot to laugh at nowadays
[13:42] herman Bergson: Well...we have still three to go.....:-)
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): three books?
[13:42] herman Bergson: yes :-)
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): authors i mean?
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah ok
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): WE so often leave out what is going on in
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Africa
[13:43] herman Bergson: We'll see if they can shed some light on this issue......
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): South America
[13:43] herman Bergson: What is going on there is scary...
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in both
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Venezuela is a mess today
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaw yes :(
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and is affecting  people everywhere
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sad
[13:44] herman Bergson: It is that the white control the money but otherwise it might  end in a Zimbabwe scenario perhaps
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): terrible development, going in the wrong direction completely
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): China has huge money influence in both area
[13:45] herman Bergson: But what we have to keep in mind is that we are looking at totalitarian regimes
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and their philosophy is scary too
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): these type of governments and regimes should be long gone but they seem to get worse and worse instead
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): evil wins
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): power and greed
[13:46] herman Bergson: Only in Europe and the US both, liberals and socialists can be active in parliaments
[13:47] herman Bergson: That's a pretty weird observation
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wow
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks there are a few other countries on both continents
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Australia and New Zealand
[13:48] herman Bergson: Well sometimes the situation is polarized....
[13:48] herman Bergson: That too is part of Western culture I would say Gemma
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe
[13:48] herman Bergson: Bu tyou are right...down under is doing well too :-))
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): waits for aliens
[13:49] herman Bergson: YEs I too still do Gemma :-))
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:50] herman Bergson: So until they arrive...let is see what others have to say about this theme..
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:50] herman Bergson: Unless you still have a killing remark or question......????
[13:50] herman Bergson: Thankk you all again.....:-)
[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:50] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting again
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman:)
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): use the button
[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: that was a great discussion! Thank you
[13:51] CB Axel:  °͜°
[13:51] CB Axel: I'm looking forward to our next 3 authors.
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahahah
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but vacation next week right??
[13:51] herman Bergson: noo. no....
[13:51] CB Axel: Oh, really? Vacation time already?
[13:52] herman Bergson: February 4....
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki
[13:52] CB Axel: Ah, OK.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu soon all
[13:52] herman Bergson: Next week  we still have to work!
[13:52] CB Axel: See you next week then.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: good night :-) see you next week

Wednesday, January 23, 2019

754: The legacy of World War Two...

The period 1934 - 1945 weren't not only dark and threatening times. Especially in the 1930s remarkable things happened.
Things of which we experience serious consequences. In the 1930s chemistry was not only the play field of academic scientists and universities.
It became integrated in the industrial processes and production. 
Wallace Hume Carothers (1896 –1937) was an American chemist, inventor and the leader of organic chemistry at DuPont,
He is credited with the invention of nylon and the synthetic rubber, called neoprene.
The magic material was presented by Du Pont  during the Du Pont "Wonder World of Chemistry" during the World Exhibition in New York, 1939.
After this presentation there was a run on nylon stockings. Many stores allowed customers only two pairs per purchase.
However, the nylon craze was a thought-provoking aspect, which the New York Times pointed out: "Until now, a synthetic material has always been an imitation of something that was found in nature ... 
This nylon is different. There is no chemical counterpart in nature ... It is ... such a perfect control of matter
that man is no longer totally dependent on animals, plants and the earth's crust for food, clothing and building materials. "
Was the New York Times pondering about the idea of man alienated from nature?
What we inherited from the 20th century with its focus on chemistry , plastics and artificial fibers is our oceans full of plastic waste today.
Between January 1933 and December 1941, 104,098 German and Austrian refugees arrived in the United States. 
Among them were 7622 academics and some 1500 artists, journalists and other intellectuals. 

Most of them only sought asylum in the US after the Kristallnacht in 1938. Among them were well known scientists like Erich Fromm, Claude Levi-Strauss and Wilhelm Reich
And while Europe was overrun by fascism and a lot of art was destroyed als "Entartete Kunst" (Degenerated art),
Amerika became the place where many famous artists found asylum: Schönberg, Hindemith, Mondriaan, Chagall, de Kooning and many others.
But maybe the most world changing thing, that emerged from these war years, originates from England. The name related to it is Alan Turing.
You may have heard of the Enigma machine, with which the Germans made coded messages for, in particular, their submarines and warships.
The coded messages were almost impossible to break, but Alan Turing succeeded in doing so by building an electronic devise, 
that could check 25.000 characters per second to look for patterns. This enabled the UK to take out much more U-boats or evade them.
Thus was born the idea of the computer. In the US Von Neumann, a friend of Turing, developed similar ideas, 
which resulted in the ENIAC (Electronical Numerical Integrator and Calculator).
Years after the war an investigation was started in which a group of older soldiers and scientists were asked 
what they thought were the most important scientific contributions to the course of the war. 
This group came to the conclusion that there had been six major developments or instruments that  arose or were further developed by the war. 
These were atomic energy, radar, rocket propulsion, jet propulsion, automation and operational research.
Where other wars had been followed by a time of pessimism, in part due to scientific developments, the Second World War, 
was followed by a time of optimism, an optimistic belief that science would benefit everyone, despite the enormous shadow of the atomic bomb.
The legacy of that part of the 20th century, I'd say....
Thank you for your attention again....

The Discussion

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Also from the radar we got the microwave oven
[13:24] herman Bergson: is that so Bejiita....funny....
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the magnetron was developed for radar and by accident they discovered that it melted chocolate
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): boom the microwave oven was born!
[13:24] herman Bergson: I think the main point here is the position science got in our society from that time on
[13:25] CB Axel: I think maybe science got too important.
[13:25] CB Axel: People got to think we didn't need nature any more.
[13:25] herman Bergson: As I may notice , nobody seems to question that :-)
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also a fun detail, Nylon and computers dont mix, Nylon + computer usually = BZZZT BOFF, No more computer
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:26] herman Bergson: Maybe that was the worry of the NYT too, CB
[13:26] CB Axel: My sister once tried to get my father worried about global warming by talking about how the polar bears are dying.
[13:26] CB Axel: But my father doesn't care about polar bears.
[13:26] herman Bergson smiles
[13:27] herman Bergson: I wonder how much I care about them :-)
[13:27] CB Axel: He doesn't even care that dying polar bears are a symptom of a planet that is dying.
[13:27] herman Bergson: I also didn't care about dinosaurs
[13:27] CB Axel: He figures humans will be fine because we will just adapt to the new climate.
[13:27] CB Axel: He believe science will save us.
[13:28] CB Axel: But what are we begin save for?
[13:28] herman Bergson: I think you should turn it around CB....
[13:28] herman Bergson: the earth isn't dying at all.....
[13:28] herman Bergson: eventually WE are dying and the earth lives on...just like that
[13:28] CB Axel: The sooner that happens, the better.
[13:29] herman Bergson: Not too fast CB :-)
[13:29] CB Axel: I don't want to live in a world covered in concrete eating manufactured food.
[13:29] herman Bergson: Give it a chance....
[13:29] CB Axel: It's hard for me to do that. I hate the human race more and more every day.
[13:30] herman Bergson: I hope that is not our future CB.....Concrete and McDonnallls everywhere :-)
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is our future?
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the developing of fotonica?
[13:31] herman Bergson: what is that Beertje?
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no indeed, i dont wanna live in a concrete jungle where everything is grey and everyone stressing around in a total chaos
[13:31] CB Axel: The game?
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): energy like plants do,
[13:31] CB Axel: Oh. Photosynthesis?
[13:31] herman Bergson: A video game?
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's what university does now
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): photonica
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): is that like a real version of ready player one?
[13:32] herman Bergson: I think you all are too pestimistic.....
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): search for photonica...i don't know how to explain in english
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it will be a revolution in energy
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i like vr but i dont want the world to be so messed im forced to live 100% in a vr cause everything around me rl is destroyed
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the film i liked though
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is vr? Bejiita?
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill check that
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Oculus Rift and similar
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): those things
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Sansar
[13:34] CB Axel: Virtual Reality.
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you CB
[13:34] herman Bergson: That is all what the previous century brought the computer
[13:35] herman Bergson: But I am not that negative about the future based on this legacy :-)
[13:35] herman Bergson: Concrete everywhere....
[13:36] herman Bergson: Only 7% of the territory of the Netherlands contains buildings
[13:36] herman Bergson: all the remainder is meadows and woods and water
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): searching photonica i only find this
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some TV/monitor maker
[13:37] herman Bergson: photonica....optic possibilities on a chip
[[13:39] herman Bergson: Well...I guess we have to deal with our plastics and computers in this century.....
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa u mean optical cpus wich use light instead of electricity to transfer data around the chip?
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the next step i guess
[13:39] herman Bergson: Guess that is it Bejiita....
[13:39] CB Axel: Fiber optics?
[13:40] herman Bergson: computers that use light in stead of electicity
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes that's what I ment
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and will be 1000s of times faster
[13:40] CB Axel: Interesting.
[13:40] herman Bergson: yes the speed is the attraction here
[13:40] herman Bergson: and then come the promises that computers can do much more than before
[13:41] CB Axel: Quantum computers?
[13:41] herman Bergson: But we still stay the same human beings....
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also the quantum computer is interesting but its only useful for very specialized and advanced calculations
[13:41] herman Bergson: with our emotions and irrationality
[13:41] herman Bergson: our need for love and security
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one possible application for the quantum computer could however be to answer the problem we discussed long ago
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how does the brain and our minds work
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a quantum computer if anything might solve that
[13:42] herman Bergson: I don't think so Bejiita....
[13:42] herman Bergson: to begin with....
[13:42] herman Bergson: everything that is IN that computer is a product of our brain....
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well thats true
[13:43] herman Bergson: to know ABOUT the brain means that you need to have means of getting knowledge which are beyond the brain
[13:43] herman Bergson: but we don't have concepts that transcendent the brain
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also throwing math and calculus at stuff like this will probably not solve this as the brain cant be explained in that way
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with math
[13:44] herman Bergson: Already when I was a student....I compared this situation with this
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and all computers work my math and algotithms only
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): by
[13:44] herman Bergson: You are holding a ruler in your hand with which you want to measure that ruler
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa
[13:44] herman Bergson: that is when we  think about thinking
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true
[13:45] herman Bergson: We can't transcend the concepts of our thinking...of our mind
[13:46] herman Bergson: And building computers doesn't create such a possibility
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to be able to understand our brain we must already understand our brain
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with or without computers
[13:46] herman Bergson: and use our brain to understand our brain...although MIND is a better word here
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the "software" part
[13:47] herman Bergson: The modern development IS to learn to understand the brain....the physical object inside our skull
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:47] herman Bergson: All those busy neuroscientists...
[13:48] herman Bergson: I said it before....
[13:48] herman Bergson: previously the criminal was kind of excused based on psycho-analytical interpretations of his personality...
[13:49] herman Bergson: Today the criminal is excused to some extend based on MRi scans that show something in his brain activity...
[13:50] herman Bergson: And when you apply the Sharia his hand is just chopped of :-)
[13:50] herman Bergson: A thief is a thief...
[13:50] CB Axel: Right. They should chop his head off.
[13:51] CB Axel: No?
[13:51] herman Bergson: His head...hmmm.....he has got only one of that...
[13:52] herman Bergson: A bit definite
[13:52] CB Axel: Well, his hand didn't make him a thief. It was his brain.
[13:53] herman Bergson: Well maybe it gives you something to think about.......
[13:53] herman Bergson: Ahh a good one, CB
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:53] herman Bergson: Have to think about it indeed :-))
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:54] herman Bergson: So...let me thank you again for your participation today....
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:54] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....^_^
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time then
[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you :-) Herman and Class
[13:54] CB Axel: I'll try to be in a better mood and hate people a little less next week.
[13:54] CB Axel:  °͜°

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):