Tuesday, January 22, 2019

753: Economic Changes.....

In the period 1900 - 1940 a lot of unique developments emerged, which shaped the world of the 21st century, our world of today.
On the negative side we see anti-semitism and racism disguised as science and white supremacy thinking, culminating in mass murdering nazism.
On the positive side we see unnumerable discoveries in physics and medicine. The new science of psychology offered people with mental diseases more human treatment.
All these fast developments we see reflected in art, literature and music too. Just think of cubism, surrealism or twelve tones music and jazz.
What the Second World War has brought us, is, as I assume, generally known to you. One thing is relevant to mention: NATO, 
a military association between many countries in defense of our freedom against Russian threats. This hold already for 70 years.
A short side-track: the current president of the United States, one of the most important members of NATO, is seriously considering to withdraw the US from NATO. What is going on here?
The apparent recovery after a devastating World War One ended in the Stock Exchange Crash of 1929, which then was completed by an even more devastating World War Two.
To rebuild the world you need economics and the theories in those days were dominated by classical liberal views, 
which argued in favor of competition, free trade based on supply and demand and lifting governmental restraints on business.
After the stock market crash on Wall Street in 1929 and the economic depression that followed,
when unemployment in the United States rose to almost 25% and in some parts of Europe to 33%,
and when no less than 9000 banks went bankrupt in America, most economists believed that the best action was no action. According to conventional wisdom, depressions were 'therapeutic'. 
They squeezed the inefficiency and dirt out of the economy of a country that had accumulated it as a poison. Intervening in natural economic medicine could turn into inflation.
In the 30s there was one economist, who argued, that this situation would not recover by itself: John Maynard Keynes.
What his solution was, we can discuss later, but ironically enough nazi-Germany was the first country that tested Keynes' theory.
From the time when Hitler came to power in 1933, he practically behaved like the perfect Keynesian:
he had railways, roads, canals and other works built while strictly controlling foreign currency exchange to prevent Germans from moving their money abroad. 
He forced them to buy German products. Unemployment was lifted within two years, and prices and wages began to rise at the same time.
Well, this almost explains Keynes theory: Government intervention in national economy as opposed to the laissez-faire approach of the liberals.
For some reason the liberals have won the debate in the Western World. Was it due to Thatcher and Reagan? But it is the 21st century  now and we have to deal with this issue after the 2008 financial crash.
Thank you for your attention again.....

The Discussion

[13:30] Al Michigan: does bringing Keynes back means crossing the boarders, and stopping the eu?
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:30] herman Bergson: Why , Al?
[13:31] Al Michigan: we can t solve it like hitler did without closing the ara , or the ppl among with the eu or dollar is circulating.
[13:31] herman Bergson: The US has closed its boarders with tariff walls, it seems
[13:31] Al Michigan: ah.... so that s why...
[13:31] Al Michigan: closing the ttp, and all
[13:31] herman Bergson: I am not an economist....
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wich would mean crash the world economy since the dollar is what everything measures against
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): would be a global economic disaster
[13:32] herman Bergson: but since the 20th century the debate is about how much a government should interfere with the economy of its country...
[13:32] Al Michigan: the yen would take over, because they are moving to make it gold based
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): japan is indeed another strong economy
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone is online.
[13:33] Al Michigan:i didn't t man the Japanese one but the Chinese coins...
[13:33] Al Michigan: forgot the names
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was thinking that
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): forgot the name
[13:33] herman Bergson: What we see today is that neo-liberalism has a lot of negative side effects....making rich people richer and poor people poorer
[13:34] Al Michigan: never good if that goes on and on!
[13:34] Al Michigan: in the end 1 man will have everything
[13:34] herman Bergson: Besides that ...the accumulation of so much wealth in the hands of so few people...
[13:34] Al Michigan: it will derail governments and democratys
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very true
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): something have to be done
[13:35] herman Bergson: Makes you even wonder how many millions Trump may have offered Barr to take the  job and kill the Muelller probe
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we need a new Robin Hood I think
[13:35] Al Michigan: revolution!
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh
[13:35] Al Michigan: we must act now
[13:35] Al Michigan: be4 its too late
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not sure that bar would accept anything
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not that i agree with all he said however has been pretty good in the past
[13:36] herman Bergson: `I hope for the best Gemma :-)
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): me too
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): fingers crossed
[13:36] herman Bergson: yes
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa thats all we can do
[13:37] herman Bergson: But this age has a fundamental problem in economics....
[13:37] Al Michigan: the debt, hu?
[13:37] herman Bergson: liberalism vs governmental control over economy
[13:38] herman Bergson: the balance seems now be in favor of liberalism
[13:38] Al Michigan: but,... isn t the industrie not having been taken over the governmental supervision off the industry, and has industry not yet taken over the control over the state?
[13:38] Al Michigan: Like modern kind of fascism?
[13:38] herman Bergson: all enthusiasm for social solidarity and sharing seem to have disappeared from the political discourse
[13:38] Al Michigan: is that what modern liberalism is changed into?
[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes Al....it looks like the Multinationals and Big Finance govern the world more or less
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): greed rules
[13:40] Al Michigan: like ford and krupp financed hitler....?
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have ot define liberalism we have a conflict on the definitions
[13:40] herman Bergson: They did, Al
[13:40] Al Michigan: yeah , hu. that s what fascism is about!
[13:41] herman Bergson: Liberalism means primarily that the individual should be absolutely free to set his goals and achieve them by personal effort...no one should hinder him in that process
[13:41] Al Michigan: so we are back in 1930!!!
[13:42] herman Bergson: unless of course his goals are limiting the freedom of others
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here in the usa we use the word liberalism very differently
[13:42] Al Michigan: how gemma?
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the definition would be libertarianism
[13:42] herman Bergson: yes...you get nervous and read it as socialism....
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): next door to socialism
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not socialism
[13:42] CB Axel: Yeah, Gemma. I think what Herman is describing is libertarianism.
[13:43] CB Axel: No regulations
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): libertarianism
[13:43] Al Michigan: but see.. if you combine it with nationalism, you have naz'
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): spelling
[13:43] herman Bergson: You are scared like hell to be "forced" to share your wealthy   with the less fortunate in your society
[13:43] Al Michigan: nazi
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not me
[13:43] CB Axel: I'm not.
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or liberals here
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we are for sharing
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): progressive has taken over as the word
[13:44] herman Bergson: That is why in the Netherlands every person has a default health insurance....
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we are definitely for near socialism
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): medical care for all
[13:44] Al Michigan: liberals forget, their position is possible because off all the others, that had schooled him and all the other ppl, taking cre off prisons and hospitals, and traffic lights and all
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): unions
[13:44] CB Axel: Democratic socialism, gemma.
[13:44] herman Bergson: common good in Europe :-)
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): shhh cb
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:44] CB Axel: No, Al. Those are libertarians not liberals.
[13:45] Al Michigan: money is like the blood in a cow, it must flow, otherwise your cow dies.
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no they sure are not but according to Herman's definition they ARE
[13:45] herman Bergson: what are libertarians...people for free sex???
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no they are your definition of liberals here
[13:45] Al Michigan: dat is liberetijns, weer iets anders
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we discussed this about 10 years ago
[13:46] herman Bergson: We do not know that term as a political category
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i know
[13:46] CB Axel: Libertarians want less government control.
[13:46] CB Axel: Fewer regulations
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the less the better
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:46] herman Bergson: No...that are liberals in our world, Gemma
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i know but not in the us
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): US
[13:46] Al Michigan: that woul be okay, because then workers are free to organise in unions and demand high wages.
[13:46] herman Bergson: people that are for healthcare for all are socialists
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here they are trying to kill unions
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): slowly
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and disrupt free schools
[13:47] Al Michigan: it is a part off the eu, to kill the unions
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): by starting charter schools
[13:48] herman Bergson: ok...we have liberals and socialists...and the US has Libertarians also
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): which get state money but operate privately
[13:48] Al Michigan: we must get rid off this merkel women
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes
[13:48] Al Michigan: and the whole eu thing darned
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for profit!
[13:48] Al Michigan: it s not going good !
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): everything is just about making money
[13:48] Al Michigan: how can you educate for profit,....
[13:49] herman Bergson: OK...I lost control here.....
[13:49] herman Bergson: so...you all be silent for a moment.....please
[13:49] Al Michigan: with bad schooling , ppl do not see the history is repeating!
[13:49] Al Michigan: so we cannot do some thing to help us
[13:49] herman Bergson: also those with limited reading abilities :-))
[13:49] Al Michigan: when the crises is here
[13:50] herman Bergson: Let's get this cleared......
[13:50] Al Michigan: yeah so many boys can t even read!!!!
[13:50] herman Bergson: we have liberals.....
[13:50] Al Michigan: how will the manage their i phone!
[13:50] herman Bergson: Are yo deaf, AL?
[13:50] herman Bergson: I asked to be silent for a moment
[13:50] Al Michigan: good bye
[13:50] herman Bergson: That is better
[13:50] CB Axel: Jeesh
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:51] herman Bergson: ok...back to the roots...
[13:51] herman Bergson: we have liberals.....
[13:52] herman Bergson: these are people who are pro less government and pro individual freedom.....they love the winners
[13:52] herman Bergson: we have socialists.....
[13:52] herman Bergson: They want to share the prosperity of a country with all...whether you are a winner or a loser...mediccare, education and so on
[13:53] herman Bergson: then there are libertarians...they are a mystery to me....what do they add to the picture
[13:53] herman Bergson: Anyone?
[13:54] CB Axel: What you are calling liberal are what we call libertarians.
[13:54] herman Bergson: ok....
[13:54] herman Bergson: then we have the question....what are liberals in the US?
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:54] CB Axel: Our liberals tend to want medicare for all, free education, just tax laws.
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): freedom but
[13:55] herman Bergson: People that adhere to the theories of Adam Smith, John Stuart Mill, Ayn Rand
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the conservatives here are more your liberals
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): really
[13:55] CB Axel: Right.
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he democrats are the liberals and almost socialists
[13:55] herman Bergson: Not anymore, Gemma, they are selling out their country to the Russians, to Putin
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): always accused ov being socialists
[13:56] CB Axel: Our conservatives are like the British Tories. Our liberals are more like their labor party.
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have to run off !!
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I'm Sorry!
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa ok
[13:56] herman Bergson: can being a socialst be an accusation?
[13:56] CB Axel: Or labour since I'm talking about the Brits. lol
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu Gemma
[13:56] herman Bergson: Normally you are ACCUSed of a crime
[13:56] CB Axel: Socialism is considered close to communism.
[13:56] herman Bergson: The fishes are calling:-))
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:57] herman Bergson: That is complete nonsense CB
[13:57] CB Axel: I agree
[13:57] herman Bergson: A proof of complete lack of historical and philosophical knowledge
[13:57] CB Axel: I consider myself to be a democratic socialist. By the people and for the people.
[13:57] CB Axel: I agree, Herman.
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa thats how its supposed to be
[13:58] CB Axel: Our conservatives believe we should go back to the 1950's where white men controlled everything.
[13:59] CB Axel: And where how much money you have defines your worth.
[13:59] herman Bergson: SO...liberals = libertarians,  and real liberals are actually communists in the American theory?
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): probably since they go against trumps ideas
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[14:00] CB Axel: Not necessarily communists (although some would probably say that).
[14:00] herman Bergson: Yes, CB, that white supremacy belief is really scaring...
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, its back ho hitlers and similar demons ideas there
[14:00] CB Axel: But our liberals don't think the rich need to get richer by crushing everyone else.
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ot good
[14:01] herman Bergson: that really is a legacy of the pre-war period of the 20th century
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[14:02] herman Bergson: in the 1920s 'scientist' were convinced that the white race was the supreme race on this globe
[14:02] herman Bergson: Hitler made it his Arian ideal....
[14:02] CB Axel: Studies show that the conservative brain is more fearful than the more socialist brain.
[14:02] herman Bergson: Be careful with that, CB
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that seems logical
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): conservative = afraid of changes
[14:03] herman Bergson: it is a new trend to link deviations to brain malfunctions...
[14:03] CB Axel: So conservatives don't want anything to change. They're afraid of foreigners and are convinced that everyone is out to get them. Hence their love of guns, militarized police, and a strong military.
[14:03] herman Bergson: so...you can't help it what you do because your brain is wired like that....
[14:04] CB Axel: I didn't say it was a brain malfunction. That's just the way they think.
[14:04] herman Bergson: No CB....can also be a cultural thing....for instance being part of the bible belt....education
[14:04] herman Bergson: you said that their brain was different....
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in any case leads to a violent and hating society
[14:04] herman Bergson: so you link behavior to brain structures....
[14:05] CB Axel: Well, scans show they react to stimuli differently. It may be nurture rather than nature.
[14:05] herman Bergson: That is the same process that occurred when psycho analysis became a hipe....
[14:05] CB Axel: And probably is more nurture.
[14:06] herman Bergson: the criminal wasn't the bad guy anymore....he just had a dominant father, a bad youth, emotional neglect etc
[14:06] herman Bergson: so we almost had to feel sorry for the serial killer...
[14:06] herman Bergson: There was that TV series...was called PROFILER, if i am not mistaken
[14:07] herman Bergson: completely based on this theory
[14:07] CB Axel: Many serial killers have had bad lives. I do pitty them, but others have bad lives, too, and don't become murderers.
[14:07] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed
[14:07] Wisdomseeker (lissena) is offline.
[14:07] herman Bergson: indeed CB...and that is the quintessential problem
[14:07] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i have to head out now, need to attend another place
[14:08] herman Bergson: Ok Bejiita...time to end this debate :-))
[14:08] CB Axel: Bye, Bejiita.
[14:08] herman Bergson: Life goes on....so....class dismissed
[14:08] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one thing is clear something have to be done in general, but we might at least hope for the best
[14:08] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I finally see the chairs:)
[14:08] CB Axel: I was just wondering if you have anyone you call conservatives in the Netherlands.
[14:08] CB Axel: Like Tories.
[14:08] herman Bergson: Thank you all again
[14:08] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu ext time
[14:09] herman Bergson: Yes we have CB
[14:09] CB Axel: What do they believe.
[14:09] herman Bergson: but we call them liberals
[14:09] Netty (netty.keng) is online.
[14:09] herman Bergson: they believe....government hands off...keep it as it is....freedom for all
[14:10] CB Axel: OK. I have to think about how our conservatives differ from our libertarians.
[14:10] CB Axel: Because they are a little different.
[14:10] herman Bergson: still a weird word for me...libertarians.....
[14:11] herman Bergson: to me the word refers to people who like free sex
[14:11] herman Bergson: Libertijn is our word
[14:11] CB Axel: Well, they certainly wouldn't want it regulated. LOL
[14:11] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe they want that too Herman
[14:11] CB Axel: I'll have to think about this over the weekend.
[14:12] CB Axel: I won't keep you here any longer.
[14:12] herman Bergson: Take your time CB....
[14:12] CB Axel: I'll see you Tuesday.
[14:12] herman Bergson: Just let me know when your paper is ready
[14:12] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Have a nice day CB
[14:12] CB Axel: LOL, Herman.
[14:12] CB Axel: Bye

[14:12] herman Bergson: Bye CB:-)

No comments:

Post a Comment