Sunday, January 27, 2019

755: What comes next.......?

It is understandable, that, when the world is on fire, people begin to wonder, what has to be done when the fire is over.
That, of course happened during World War II. There were published four books that interest us here.
"Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy" by Joseph Schumpeter (1942), "Diagnosis of Our Time" by Karl Mannheim (1943), 
"The Road to Serfdom" by Friedrich Hayek (1944) and" The Open Society and its Enemies" by Karl Popper (1945).
It was one of those coincidences of the century that in the war four books  of exiles from the old double monarchy of Austria-Hungary were published, 
all four of which looked forward to the kind of society that man should strive for once the war is over.
And all four of them saw it as a most important task to compare the pros and cons of fascism and communism, liberalism and socialism, capitalism and democracy.
Let's first look at "Diagnosis of Our Time" by Karl Mannheim (b. Károly Mannheim, 27 March 1893 – 9 January 1947) was a German sociologist, 
who was influential in the first half of the 20th century, was a founding father of classical sociology, and was a founder of the sociology of knowledge.
According to him, after this war there was no way back to the laisser-faire order of society, 
and that war itself produced a silent revolution by paving the way for a new type of planned order.
Mannheim assumed as starting point the 'planned society'. For him, the old capitalism that had caused the stock market crash and the depression was dead. 
He of course had witnessed ideologies that went so far in their planning of society, like Stalinism and fascism, that they became inhumane.
Instead, according to him, after the war a new society, "The Great Society" as he called it, could only be achieved  
through a form of planning that did not destroy freedom, as it had happened in totalitarian states, 
but which took into account the latest developments in psychology and sociology, and especially in psychoanalysis. 
According to him, the Great Society was one in which individual freedom was maintained, but in which everyone was aware of how societies functioned 
and in what sense modern, complex, technological societies differed from peasant societies. 
He therefore concentrated on two aspects of contemporary society: youth and education on the one hand, religion on the other. 
It is not really clear to me what he had in mind regarding this "planning of society", however the main theme in his sociological theories was the concept of ideology.
For Mannheim, “ideology” meant the system of thought held by ruling groups in the society, which was maintained in order to preserve the status quo. 
So I guess he expected a possibility to change the dominating ideology in a society by educating the youth in the "right" way,
that is by teaching them the scientific facts of sociology and psychology. He probably had not yet thought of the idea,
that these sciences themselves are embedded in a certain ideology themselves and thence not value-free and objective, 
which will become the subject of fierce debates later in the 20th century.
Thank you for your attention again......

Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Peter Watson: A Terrible Beauty (2000)

The Discussion

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:18] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:18] herman Bergson: Take your time to digest this :-))
[13:19] herman Bergson: ~From our present point of view, I'd say that you see here a believe in science.....
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): knows i read something of that sort a long time ago
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or critiques
[13:19] herman Bergson: Make everyone sociologically skilled and full of psycho-analytic insights and you'll change the ruling ideology for the better
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we wish
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): everyone?....not possible
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes...looking at the present situation, I think Mannheim was wrong
[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes that too, Beertje
[13:21] herman Bergson: But that is the problem with certain people....they assumer that everyone thinks and reasons at the same level as they do
[13:21] Anna Adamant Albion (anna.adamant) is online.
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and they don't
[13:22] herman Bergson: no
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we all think different at least a little
[13:22] CB Axel: I'm glad we don't all think the same.
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not all have the skills to learn
[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita and on the other hand you should not underestimate others....
[13:23] herman Bergson: like....oh workers don't understand politics
[13:23] herman Bergson: the stratification of society in classes....
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa true
[13:24] herman Bergson: Like Marx did...for instance
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we need to all adapt to each other
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): noit fight each others ideas
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not
[13:24] herman Bergson: ohh and what that other fellow referring to the ELITE.....:-)
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): The elite who think they are better then everyone else yes
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the boasters
[13:25] herman Bergson: At least Mannnheim allowed quite some governmental influence on society...
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hm
[13:26] herman Bergson: I think the whole post wwwII debate on politics is about the degree of governmental influence on the many aspects of society
[13:27] herman Bergson: the liberalism - socialism debate....
[13:27] herman Bergson: GOP and Dems
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still going on
[13:27] herman Bergson: Labour and Conservatives
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma.....Mannheim might have thought  you can stop the debate by good sociological and psychological insights
[13:28] herman Bergson: I don't think so :-))
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it seems to start with the brains being different however
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): physically
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to begin with
[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma that is an interesting trend these days......
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed
[13:29] herman Bergson: formerly we had psychological explanations....
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not a trend but a scientific fact
[13:29] herman Bergson: today we have references to parts of the physical brain...
[13:30] herman Bergson: I wonder Gemma....
[13:30] herman Bergson: it assumes a certain theory about personality....
[13:30] herman Bergson: suppose in your pbrain part X fires a lot when......
[13:30] herman Bergson: in mine it doesn't.....
[13:31] herman Bergson: you are democrat.....I am republican......
[13:31] herman Bergson: so....?
[13:31] herman Bergson: End of debate.....
[13:31] herman Bergson: I cant help it to be what I my brain.....
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): nor can Trump:)))
[13:31] herman Bergson: But in my opinion that is pretty  nice nonsense....
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): google .. lots of articles on studies
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe Trump HAS NO brain
[13:32] herman Bergson: It implies that whatever I do I CAN NOT THINK  for myself....change my mind....adopt democratic views...
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least not a serious one
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): doens't democracy start with a debate?
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): should
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well yes
[13:32] herman Bergson: That is the whole point Bejiita...therefor the discussion doesn't apply to him :-)
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good point Herman
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:33] CB Axel: But if Republicans tend to be more fearful of change, which I had mentioned in an earlier class, can't we show them that there is no reason to be fearful.
[13:33] CB Axel: Can't we calm those fears and encourage them to try change?
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they cannot see it cb
[13:33] herman Bergson: For instance CB
[13:33] herman Bergson: Cant they be taught to see it, Gemma?
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i don't think they can in most cases
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some can and do
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but what about me??
[13:34] CB Axel: I think they can. I think we can show them changes that occurred in the past that were good for them.
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cant i be convinced by a republican i should change??
[13:34] herman Bergson: But that means that the moment you are born you also are affiliated with some political party....
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): less government?
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): less regulations
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ?
[13:35] CB Axel: Then we can try to convince them that the changes we want can also be good.
[13:35] herman Bergson: HAVE less government now, Gemma...:-)
[13:35] herman Bergson: isnt it a great experiment?
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i heard one guy today objecting to the number of people working in government
[13:35] CB Axel: We can also show them how less government has been bad in the past.
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): should be smaller!!!!
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): use robots
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and computers
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:35] CB Axel: I wonder what that guy does for a living.
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): think he is going to change??
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i don't know
[13:36] CB Axel: I bet he can be replaced, too.
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was on cspan callin
[13:36] herman Bergson: this is already happening everywhere
[13:36] CB Axel: Probably by an out of work government employee.
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but he may honestly believe that that is ok if he is out of work will just start a business
[13:36] herman Bergson: everywhere computers and robots replace people
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): of his own
[13:36] herman Bergson: a computer shop I guess :-))
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ignore government
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there is no climate change
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): myth
[13:37] CB Axel: I have no doubt that our government is bloated, but we need regulations.
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and we have way less now
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): looks at brexit issue
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will those people change?
[13:37] CB Axel: Every time regulations have been reduced, idiots go out and do the same thing that made us adopt regulations in the past.
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the ones who want and those who don't
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ?
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): would love to see another vote
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:38] CB Axel: Gemma, a lot of those people have changed now that they see what Brexit is like.
[13:38] herman Bergson: I havent seen a poll on that recently Gemma
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): would love to see it proved
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): another vote!!!
[13:39] CB Axel: I'm not sure the EU wants them to have another vote.
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i know
[13:39] herman Bergson: They are remarkably quiet about polls in Britain, is my impression
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Brexit i heard will cause all major companies to leave Britain, Airbus, Philips ect will all leave they said. 100000s of jobs will be lost - disaster
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not good
[13:39] CB Axel: I can't help wondering if the EU wants Brexit to go through and be a disaster.
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have not seen any
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as a lesson to the other countries maybe
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Britain will be the land of the unemployed
[13:39] herman Bergson: The EU can't  do anything anymore CB
[13:40] CB Axel: Yep
[13:40] herman Bergson: it is al in the hands of the Brits
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause no companies will want to be there
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): uk wants to keep the good things and not accept any damages
[13:40] CB Axel: I know. But I can't help thinking that they're all sitting quietly and laughing to themselves.
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ridiculous
[13:40] herman Bergson: But here too you see the debate about how much may a government interfere with processes in society
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks they have a lot to laugh at nowadays
[13:42] herman Bergson: Well...we have still three to go.....:-)
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): three books?
[13:42] herman Bergson: yes :-)
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): authors i mean?
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah ok
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): WE so often leave out what is going on in
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Africa
[13:43] herman Bergson: We'll see if they can shed some light on this issue......
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): South America
[13:43] herman Bergson: What is going on there is scary...
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in both
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Venezuela is a mess today
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaw yes :(
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and is affecting  people everywhere
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sad
[13:44] herman Bergson: It is that the white control the money but otherwise it might  end in a Zimbabwe scenario perhaps
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): terrible development, going in the wrong direction completely
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): China has huge money influence in both area
[13:45] herman Bergson: But what we have to keep in mind is that we are looking at totalitarian regimes
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and their philosophy is scary too
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): these type of governments and regimes should be long gone but they seem to get worse and worse instead
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): evil wins
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): power and greed
[13:46] herman Bergson: Only in Europe and the US both, liberals and socialists can be active in parliaments
[13:47] herman Bergson: That's a pretty weird observation
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wow
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks there are a few other countries on both continents
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Australia and New Zealand
[13:48] herman Bergson: Well sometimes the situation is polarized....
[13:48] herman Bergson: That too is part of Western culture I would say Gemma
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe
[13:48] herman Bergson: Bu tyou are right...down under is doing well too :-))
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): waits for aliens
[13:49] herman Bergson: YEs I too still do Gemma :-))
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:50] herman Bergson: So until they arrive...let is see what others have to say about this theme..
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:50] herman Bergson: Unless you still have a killing remark or question......????
[13:50] herman Bergson: Thankk you all again.....:-)
[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:50] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting again
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman:)
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): use the button
[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: that was a great discussion! Thank you
[13:51] CB Axel:  °͜°
[13:51] CB Axel: I'm looking forward to our next 3 authors.
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahahah
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but vacation next week right??
[13:51] herman Bergson: noo. no....
[13:51] CB Axel: Oh, really? Vacation time already?
[13:52] herman Bergson: February 4....
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki
[13:52] CB Axel: Ah, OK.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu soon all
[13:52] herman Bergson: Next week  we still have to work!
[13:52] CB Axel: See you next week then.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: good night :-) see you next week

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