All -ISMs have become swear words, depending on your political affiliations: Capitalism, Marxism, Communism...but calling someone a Marxist, which has become the new political normal in the US, is such an empty gesture,
for I am convinced that the person who loves to use those swear words hasn't the slightest idea what it means, especially when he finds Kim Jong Un of Corea a great guy.
So let's try to figure out what it is with Marxism, that scares the hell out of people, or should I say out of capitalists. To begin with it wasn't even Karl Marx's fault. He is hardly to blame for it.
Historically this goes much deeper. The first thing we have to do is to understand Marx and his ideas in his time. Of course, the scary thing about Marxism is the word: REVOLUTION. Those in power don't like such an event.
But what was the case. Maybe almost everyone has forgotten, but it is the year 1848. Due to the Industrial Revolution economics has shifted from agriculture as the source of the wealth of the nation to industrial production and mass production.
This caused an increasing urbanization and masses of workers in the industries, inferior housing, inferior education, inferior healthcare, actually, inferior everything for the masses.
This Charles Dickens world - it is almost time for Scrooge again btw :-) - was the world of Karl Marx. And what happened in that world? Revolutions! Not caused by Marx's ideas, but by the social and economic position of the masses.
And here may Marx have a point, which scared and still scares the Haves in relation to the masses of Have-nots. Let's listen to Marx himself in his "Zur Kritik der Politischen Ökonomie"(1859) [On Critique of Political Economy]
-QUOTE- "My inquiry led me to the conclusion that neither legal relations nor political forms could be comprehended whether by themselves or on the basis of a so-called general development of the human mind, but that on the contrary they originate in the material conditions of life, ....."
Let me interrupt the quote here. Since the invention of dualism by Descartes, philosophers after him focused mainly on the importance of the mind, existing in the material world but showing its superiority by transcending this material world.
On the other hand, just imagine, if homo sapiens had adhered to a materialistic ontology, there would be no religions today, no gods or magical powers, no dualism.
-QUOTE- ....the totality of which Hegel, following the example of English and French thinkers of the eighteenth century, embraces within the term "civil society"; that the anatomy of this civil society, however, has to be sought in political economy." -END QUOTE-
In other words, the anatomy of this civil society has to be understood based on the material relations of production, the relationship between the Haves and Have-Nots.
Next time we'll elaborate on this issue....thank you for your attention again....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
The Discussion
[13:13] herman Bergson: Question for Bejiita.......
[13:13] herman Bergson: Bejiita, do you know what happened in Sweden in 1848?
[13:14] herman Bergson: Ahh you googled it...:-)
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm lets see, my year cache needds to cache up
[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): A series of riots, Marsoroligheterna, takes place in the capital inspired by the Revolutions of 1848
[13:15] herman Bergson: 30 people killed....
[13:15] Max Chatnoir: I did -- something I've never heard of. March Unrest
[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed thats new to me also
[13:15] herman Bergson: Yes Max
[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not heard of
[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): either
[13:16] herman Bergson: Not only in Sweden
[13:16] herman Bergson: It started in France in february 1848
[13:16] herman Bergson: Germany, Belgium, Hungary, Austria, Italy.....
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we had our own french revolution? hmm i see
[13:17] herman Bergson: In all those countries were riots and even rulers, kings, removed from office
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): happened all around it seems
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at that time
[13:18] herman Bergson: In the Netherlands it was a bit more calm...Torbecke forced Willem II to accept a new constitution that made him just e representative head of state.
[13:18] Max Chatnoir: Who was Thorbecke?
[13:19] herman Bergson: I read a story, that Willem was kind of blackmailed, put under pressure to sign because of scandals about his sexual preferences....:-)
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Johan Rudolph Thorbecke (14 January 1798 - 4 June 1872) was a Dutch liberal statesman, one of the most important Dutch politicians of the 19th century
[13:19] herman Bergson: Thorbecke was the prime minister in 1848 in the Netherlands
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:20] Max Chatnoir: So he was part of the government. Interesting.
[13:20] herman Bergson: Beertje is better in history :-))
[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes he was....
[13:21] Max Chatnoir: So he redesigned the government. Did he call for the revolution, or respond to it?
[13:21] herman Bergson: But the interesting part is, that all over Europe people protested because they wanted more freedom and rights
[13:21] herman Bergson: There was no revolution in the Netherlands....the king gave in easily....
[13:22] Max Chatnoir: Make the Netherlands Great Again?
[13:22] herman Bergson: and with some modifications we still have the constitution of 1848 here
[13:23] herman Bergson: What is interesting is this massive unrest all over Europe....
[13:23] herman Bergson: This was not of Marx's making....
[13:23] Max Chatnoir: It was the industrial structure?
[13:23] herman Bergson: He definitely expressed the ideas that lived in those times in his writings
[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Max, it was the extreme exploitation of people, the extreme poverty, while everyone could see how the rich got richer
[13:25] herman Bergson: While the masses had no rights nor means to change the situation
[13:26] herman Bergson: Marx must have been a person who was listened to....
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they got tired of the situation and the french revolution kicked it off everywhere
[13:26] Max Chatnoir: So the revolutionaries were responding to their working conditions, not to Marx's ideas. So you couldn't call them Marxists. So who were the Marxists?
[13:26] herman Bergson: for he was expelled from France....moved to Bruxxeles was expelled there too then moved to London
[13:27] herman Bergson: Good question, Max
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Extreme poverty..Here in the Netherlands poor people lived in sod huts, something you can no longer imagine
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sheesh
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:27] Max Chatnoir: So Marx was describing what was happening, not provoking it?
[13:27] herman Bergson: In 1848 Marx and Engels, his close friend, published the Communist Manifesto in Bruxelles..
[13:28] herman Bergson: I think , in those days nobody called himself Marxist...they called themselves communists
[13:29] herman Bergson: But that dates back to the French revolution of 1789
[13:29] Max Chatnoir: Like Martin Luther's theses.
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think the Haves were not too content with the ideas of Marx, there for they maybe call the people Marxist to set them in a bad way
[13:29] Max Chatnoir: So when did Marxist become a pejorative?
[13:29] herman Bergson: Liberty, equality and brotherhood...
[13:30] herman Bergson: I think this happened after the Russian Revolution , when was it...1914?,and more specific after World War II with the Cold War politics
[13:31] herman Bergson: From Western perspective the creeps, i.e. communists and marxists lived beind the Iron Curtain
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in 1914 starten WW1
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: I have also never actually read the Communist Manifesto
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje...maybe the October revolution was in 1916
[13:32] herman Bergson: Have to google that :-)
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Russian Revolution of 1917–1923.
[13:33] herman Bergson: was 1917 :-)
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): WW1 ended in 1918
[13:34] herman Bergson: As I said in the lecture....to some extend Marx was right.....
[13:35] herman Bergson: changes of the social system are caused by the political economics, the position of workers, the position of the ruling class and growing contradictions between such parties
[13:35] herman Bergson: This could be an empirical confirmation of historical materialism, but it is not that simple and straight forward
[13:36] herman Bergson: because we have seen the collapse of a lot of communist/marxist-leninist countries in recent years
[13:37] herman Bergson: We have to think about these observations some more
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: So Trump's MAGA base is a sort of proletariat? Except he doesn't say, "Only you can fix it." He says "Only I can fix it"
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:38] herman Bergson: The MAGA base is definitely a specific social class, in my opinion
[13:38] Max Chatnoir: That may be what goes wrong with other authoritarian countries.
[[13:39] herman Bergson: To me it is a minority that tries to grab power by pushing an authoritarian autocratic individual on the throne.
[13:39] Max Chatnoir: The workers have real grievances, but the political leaders don't want to really fix that because then they would lose power.
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:40] Max Chatnoir: Which is why the current crop of republicans in the US don't want to provide public assistance.
[13:41] Max Chatnoir: Historically, they did want to try to help, but now they don't.
[13:42] herman Bergson: Well...only elections can correct that. A lot of gerrymandering is already attacked in law suits
[13:42] herman Bergson: What I find weird is that these MAGA people seem to hate government
[13:44] Max Chatnoir: It's the redistribution of wealth thing. The MAGA base think it's hurting them instead of helping.
[13:44] herman Bergson: That will be a theme for coming lectures Max...
[13:44] Max Chatnoir: Sorry, I do not really understand these guys; I'm just thinking out loud.
[13:45] herman Bergson: The creation of wealth , the distribution of wealth eyxc.
[13:45] herman Bergson: etc.
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its the distribution part they dont like I guess, ONLY ME MYSELF SHOULD HAVE EVERYTHING! NOONE ELSE!
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that kind of thinking
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MINE MINE MINE
[13:46] herman Bergson: That was an important theme, to begin with for Adam Smith in 1740 but also for Marx....how do you create value and who shold benefit of it, and how...
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Everyone is equal, only some are more equal than others
[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes. life is still an Animal Farm , Beertje :-)
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i guess so
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:48] Max Chatnoir: Well, I totally agree that if you have a hot idea, you should be rewarded for it. BUT unless you can actually produce everything you are selling yourself, with no assistance, you should share with the workers.
[13:49] herman Bergson: A hot issue, Max :-)
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true indeed
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): EVERYONE should have and also everyone should have a decent amount so all can make a good living and have a good life, not just the elite
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i ike the concept win win
[13:50] herman Bergson: So, we'll see what we can discover in coming lectures about these issues
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what makes a good living Bejiita?
[13:51] herman Bergson: When basic needs are fulfilled, Beertje
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to be able to afford what o need and not be forced to live on scraps, be homeless ect
[13:51] herman Bergson: Decent housing, decent food, decent healthcare, decent education
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if u need money to live its a human right to have so u can make a good living
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): poverty should not be a thing
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ect
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, Herman, but for some is it not enough
[13:52] herman Bergson: It is more complex than that, indeed Beertje
[13:53] Max Chatnoir: It's not a simple question, but it shouldn't be impossible.
[13:53] herman Bergson: Indeed max
[13:53] Max Chatnoir: I think a good educational system is essential.
[13:54] herman Bergson: Fact is that groups have tried to live in communes for instance.....
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:54] herman Bergson: But tha ey seem to have vanished
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and the kiboets in Israel e.g.
[13:54] herman Bergson: But yet there must be possible a social organisation where everybody gets his fair share
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): everyone a basic income from the government?
[13:57] herman Bergson: the government has no money but what the taxpayers pay....
[13:57] Max Chatnoir: There are people who might have physical or mental impediments that prevent working, but that has to be very small fraction of the population.
[13:57] herman Bergson: the question is, how do we want to share our wealth among eachother....
[13:58] Max Chatnoir: The tax system has to be figured out.
[13:58] herman Bergson: For instance...
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also no wasting of tax money like is common today
[13:59] herman Bergson: The have calculated that when the 1% superrich (wo don't pay taxes) would pay taxes it would bring 250 billion dollars
[13:59] herman Bergson: But we'll get to such question...no worries
[14:00] herman Bergson: Now time to enjoy another weekend :-)
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ツ time flies
[14:00] herman Bergson: So thank you all agian :-)
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[14:00] Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman, for poking our brains.
[14:00] herman Bergson: Save your questions for next lectures :-)
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Max
[14:01] herman Bergson: My pleasure Max :-)
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:01] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa was some nice poking once again
[14:01] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class :-)
