Karl Marx was definitely not the first one who saw a close relationship between politics and economics. A famous and influential predecessor was Adam Smith (1723 -1790).
Smith’s account of history in "The Wealth of Nations" (1776) describes human civilization as moving through four different stages, time periods that contain nations of hunters, nations of shepherds, agricultural nations, and, finally commercial societies.
This is progress, Smith insists, and each form of society is superior to the previous one. It is also natural. This is how the system is designed to operate; history has a logic to it. Obviously, this account, in fact, all of "The Wealth of Nations", was very influential for Karl Marx.
Smith is the man of "the invisible hand". The progress of societies and balanced economic activities were, so to speak, guided by an invisible hand (God) that ensured that all worked for the benefit and welfare of the whole society.
Smith also argues that historical moments and their economic arrangements help determine the form of government. As the economic stage changes, so does the form of government.
Economics and politics are intertwined, Smith observes, and a feudal system could not have a republican government as is found in commercial societies.
Feudalism was the medieval model of government predating the birth of the modern nation-state. A feudal society is a military hierarchy in which a ruler or lord offers his subjects a unit of land to control in exchange for a military or other services.
A hundred years later the feudal system had disappeared, which meant that the emphasis on the value of agriculture had shifted to a more important role for production processes in urban environments.
Marx must have learned a lot from Adam Smith. He too claimed that all institutions of human society for instance the government and a religion, are the outgrowth of its economic activity.
Consequently, social and political change occurs when those institutions cease to reflect the “mode of production”, That is, how the economy functions.
Historical materialism is rooted in Marx’s philosophy of dialectical materialism, which posits that all things develop through material contradictions.
Animals and plants, for example, biologically evolve when their methods of survival contradict their environment. Because the world is material in nature, made entirely of matter, rather than mental or spiritual,
these contradictions cannot be harmonized through reason or divine power. Incompatible elements must oppose each other until adaptation or destruction takes place. This process is continuous.
This process influences the relation between political and economic life. Marx sees the historical process as proceeding through a series of modes of production, characterized by more or less explicit class struggle, and driving humankind towards communism.
However, Marx is very reluctant to say much about the detailed arrangements of the communist alternative that he sought to bring into being, arguing that it would arise through historical processes, and was not the realization of a pre-determined plan or blueprint.
The basic idea here is that history, that is, how the world and societies evolve, is solely the result of economic activity and production processes.
This would mean for Marx that capitalism eventually would evolve into communism, which he believed would eventually result from capitalism’s own contradiction.
Capitalism had created a new class of people, industrial workers, who would ultimately cease to accept their place in the social order and demand a revision of the social organization of the system, that is the government.
We still have capitalism and in Russia and China something else, communism? (or is that some crypto-capitalism?).
Thank you for your attention again.....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
The Discussion
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:20] Max Chatnoir: Thanks for the explanation, Herman.
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:20] Max Chatnoir: I think part of the difficulty is that one type of society cannot be totally replaced by the next.
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Well communism have a bad sound, its equal to most people I think = Russia, Stalin Lenin Gulag ect
[13:21] Max Chatnoir: Unless we all become vegetarians, we're still eating animals, as well as plants.
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bad stuff
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and of course the plan economy
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the base idea is good, just need a better government to do it properly
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or idk
[13:22] herman Bergson: One of the critics of Marx's ideas was that it was simplistic...reducing every thing to economic processes
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the optimal solution i guess would be something in between
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah I guess its more complex then just that
[13:23] herman Bergson: ANother problem is communism as outcome of the evolution of capitalism.....didin't work out that way
[13:23] herman Bergson: Not capitialist countries collapsed but communist countries did
[13:23] Max Chatnoir: Yes, the oligarchs still controlled most things.
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i don't see it happening, at least not by itself
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like Soviet
[13:24] herman Bergson: That has always amazed me Max....
[13:24] herman Bergson: When the Soviet Union collapsed all of a sudden there was a super wealthy 1% that owned all of the industries
[13:25] herman Bergson: With luxury yachts in the Mediterranean harbours
[13:25] Max Chatnoir: Well, as you can see from the republican speaker debacle, people tend to look for a ruler, even though they won't be happy with one. We need a ruler, but not YOU and not YOU and not YOU....
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just like the Monoins
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Minions
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes, that speaker issue is really something....a total deconstruction of the GOP
[13:27] herman Bergson: But back to MArx...
[13:27] herman Bergson: we live in a material world with material processes that were supposed to follow some kind of logic
[13:28] herman Bergson: But it didn't work out that way...at least until now
[13:28] herman Bergson: Capitalism still seems to be the prevailing system
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:28] Max Chatnoir: A lot of jobs still require some kind of labor. That labor needs to be respected and rewarded.
[13:28] herman Bergson: Ahhh...labor.....!
[13:28] Max Chatnoir: I should say, primarily physical labor.
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nnaaa ChatGPT will soon replace all of us with robots!
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and other AI
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): probably and hopefully not
[13:29] herman Bergson: Labor is a special theme in Marx's ideas
[13:29] Max Chatnoir: I think that AI may push us into another layer.
[13:29] herman Bergson: also Adam Smith already paid a lot of attention to labor
[13:30] herman Bergson: I'll spend the next lecture on that theme
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the issue is that it might happen cause AI require no payment other then the hardware and electricity and so no wages to pay and so threatens jobs that way
[13:30] Max Chatnoir: Somebody has to tend the bots.
[13:30] herman Bergson: I don't know Bejiita...I am not so sure yet
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well when Amazon opened its data center they thought so, 1 job was created, the single maintainer of the data center wich otherwise runs by itself built like a closed guarded bunker, no signs or anything telling that this is an amazon data center
[13:32] herman Bergson: So far we have some disastrous experiences in the Netherlands with applying AI
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 1 single job to run a data center
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): machines mostly run themselves today
[13:34] herman Bergson: Government departments used it and ruined lifes of citizens
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just needs monitoring now and then
[13:34] Max Chatnoir: Theoretically, I guess, all of our nutrients could be produced in labs, and we could just let everything else go extinct. But....B O R I N G!
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:35] herman Bergson: That is what some publication wants us to believe, Max
[13:35] Max Chatnoir: We need some kind of balance, and it won't be easy to find.
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also like in game dev, AIs can soon create art code and everything, you just need to type, create next battlefield 20 in the ai and boom done, BUT WHERE IS THE FUN IN THAT!
[13:35] herman Bergson: But it is exactly what you say....boring.....so unhuman....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and where is the creativity
[13:35] herman Bergson: it would kill us maybe
[13:36] Max Chatnoir: In a sense, it would.
[13:36] Max Chatnoir: It doesn't seem like a happy environment.
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i make games for fun, not profit and i use ChatGPT nowand then alongside Stackoverflow as help but i still want to write the code myself
[13:36] herman Bergson: This begins to question the meaning of life :-
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and add my personal touch, not just be a script kiddie ( one copy pasting code without understanding anything what it does)
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: And what do you want to do for fun -- do the stuff we used to all have to do to survive, hunt, fish, grow stuff, make things.
[13:37] herman Bergson: Why do we need to be here on this planet when machines can do all the work? :-)))
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm well we have seen it in films, hopefully wone become a reality
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wont
[13:38] Max Chatnoir: Machines would have to be able to reproduce themselves.
[13:38] Max Chatnoir: A totally mineral existence ....
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they almost can, robots + 3d printers and other CNC machines
[13:38] herman Bergson: In the movies they already can. Max
[13:39] herman Bergson: But let's get back to another observation...
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a bit to go still but the Prusa 3d printer company is on its way, they use their own machines to make almost all parts for new ones
[13:40] herman Bergson: According to Marx, changes in the ways odf production and economics, will lead to chages in the social organisation of the system....the government...
[13:40] herman Bergson: I was wondering.....
[13:40] herman Bergson: Take this AI development.....
[13:40] herman Bergson: It wil change the world....
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a BIG thing for sure
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): happening
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like BOOOM
[13:41] Max Chatnoir: If we value life, and I think we should, because it's pretty cool stuff, we have to find that difficult balance. We need to find a form of government that will support that balance.
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just like that when it was released
[13:41] herman Bergson: Look at China...where every citizen already is watched and followed by surveilance cameras
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders) and disappears if they say something wrong
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: But that is an electronically assistance form of authoritarianism.
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are like marionettes for the Chinese government, over 1 billion people
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): awful
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: assisted...
[13:42] herman Bergson: Looks like it indeed, Max
[13:43] herman Bergson: But it has become reality due to technological developments
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: We need to encourage evolution, but not at the expense of eliminating variation.
[13:44] Max Chatnoir: Same for economic evolution, maybe?
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Max
[13:45] herman Bergson: Well, I guess it is quite clear these days that the current capitalist organisation of society can't continue
[13:45] herman Bergson: The metaphysical belief in endless growth of the economy, for instance
[13:45] Max Chatnoir: no, when people working in the heat can't even get a water break.....
[13:46] herman Bergson: the growing abiss between poor and rich people
[13:46] herman Bergson: so, eventually Marx will be proven right :-)
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:47] herman Bergson: Soemthing will happen due to the historical materialist development of our society
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like how Amazon treats their employees (wich is why i dont deal with anything Amazon)
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe the system of earning money is wrong
[13:47] Max Chatnoir: We need to recognize that it can't toally take over.
[13:47] Max Chatnoir: totally. :-)
[[13:48] herman Bergson: That is an issue for next lecture too, Beertje
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok:)
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Beertje, the issue is a few who want more and more and everyone else out in the cold
[13:48] Max Chatnoir: What is an ecologically sustainable economic system?
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): greed
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): is the main issue with capitalism
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sucking out others
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as well as environmental disasters when trash heaps grow and oil rigs explode
[13:49] Max Chatnoir: Yes! It's great to make a good life for yourself, but not just for 35 people.
[13:49] herman Bergson: Maybe we should investigate the question....HOW DID WE BECOME CAPITALISTS?
[13:50] Max Chatnoir: That may need some definition, Herman.
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i told u, one word, greed
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well its probably more but
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to always want something in return
[13:50] Max Chatnoir: no, there is competition and innovation, too.
[13:51] herman Bergson: Ok...I'll think about this question and get back to it in the next lecture....
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well thats what drives me
[13:51] Max Chatnoir: But once you get a successful person, they want to cut back on competition.
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the result itself is the payment mostly for me, i have acomplished something, however that dont buy me food, so i still need money
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or pay my rent
[13:51] Max Chatnoir: Because you can't just rest on your laurels if you want to keep it working.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Max
[13:52] Max Chatnoir: How often do rich people buy out their competitors?
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): way to often
[13:52] herman Bergson: Ok...start pondering about the question how we became capitalists :-)
[13:52] Max Chatnoir: I've seen it happen in textbooks a lot.
[13:52] herman Bergson: and I'll see you next Thursday again
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): fewer and fewer and bigger and bigger the companies get
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki Herman
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:53] herman Bergson: For today...thank you all gain :-)
[13:53] Max Chatnoir: Thank you, Herman!
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
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