Thursday, May 27, 2021

928: An evaluation....

 Let's assume that the development of the brain like ours in a primate began about 300.000 years ago. Then it needed another 100.000 years to get a shape of the brain, which resembles our brain shape.

Multiple lines of evidence from paleoanthropology, archeology, and genetics are informative about the evolution of the brain and behavior in the Homo sapiens lineage, 


but there is no consensus about the tempo and mode of these biological and behavioral changes. Whatever tempo, it has been a long, long learning process.


The greatest discovery in history is the brain that discovers its own existence. Let me speculate a little about how this may have happened.


Every day you go to the pool to drink and see your face in the water, but you ignore it because you know it does not mean danger.


Then one day you get into a fierce fight with a rival and your face is hurt. You have a deep scar on your cheek.


As usual, you go to the pool to drink and there is something different: the face in the pool has a big scar on his cheek. 


You touch the fear and see a hand touching the fear and suddenly you realize: face here .... face in water,,,,, and self-awareness arises in humanoids.


This may have been a slow process among groups of individuals. But what is the next step of the brain? It must have been the discovery of the concept of WHY?


With this concept the accumulation of knowledge begins. The next concept must have been WHAT IS....?  Maybe it was first WHAT and then WHY.


You see it in young children. They first discover their own toes, then the rest of the world and after a few years they drive you crazy with questions like Why is the moon round?


We entered the history of knowledge 40.000 years ago, a time from which we have evidence that prehistoric man had expanded the what/why question to a search for patterns.


This deepened at the moment around 3200 BC man learned to write and thus could store data. We have seen a number of examples/


Quantitative patterns were discovered and turned into mathematics and qualitative patterns were discovered by using the, which was effective in astronomy, law or medicines.


A strong point of the patterns was that you also cloud use them to predict things. IF < event > THEN <consequence >. Knowledge moved from descriptive to prescriptive.


While there is a proliferation of patterns in early antiquity, principles are only used even very little and then mainly in legal science. 


There are, however, indications for a certain awareness of principles: the underlying mathematical principle 


for generating new Pythagorean trifles must have been known to the Babylonians, as well as the legal principles 


of retribution, replacement and repayment which were needed to determine the punishment or reimbursement at new cases and finally 


the principle of probabilistic reasoning in medicine without which no diagnoses based on incomplete information wouldn't be possible. 


But it remains a question whether they were aware of these principles or that it was no more than an old and traditional way of acting. where you could speak of the use of 'implicit' principles. 


We find the most powerful evidence for an early principle in mathematics, without which the generation of Pythagorean trifles is impossible. 


Unfortunately, a clay tablet has been submitted that explicitly mentions the relevant principle. Maybe homo sapiens was still too practical and pragmatic to spend time on developing underlying theories.


Thank you for your attention again....



MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Rens Bod: "Een Wereld vol Patronen".  2019


The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: The main them of today is that you see the discovery of numerous patterns by Egyptians, Babylonians, but no theoretical underpinning

[13:18] herman Bergson: Patterns are observed..and then there it stops....

[13:19] herman Bergson: As if the brain still has to learn deeper and more abstract thinking

[13:19] CB Axel: Could that be because the patterns were put there by God so there was no need to look any further?

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): They see there is but can not understand why

[13:20] herman Bergson: At least there was no urge to explain and investigate the underlying principles...indeed CB

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or they weren't allowed to ask questions

[13:21] herman Bergson: Besides ...most of the clay tablets deal with harvests, land and practical things like that

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no time for math and science

[13:22] herman Bergson: Ever read the books of Aubel, Tribe of the Cave bear...or what the English title may be

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:23] herman Bergson: It tells about the life of prehistoric tribe...

[13:23] CB Axel: so they were just interested in the practicalities of what they observed than in the whys.

[13:23] CB Axel: It was "Clan of the Cave Bear" in English. I never read them.

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): food is very important for a tribe

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:23] herman Bergson: Only the medicine man knew how to was forbidden for the members of the tribe to try it

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): keeping the people alive

[13:24] herman Bergson: Ahh Thank you CB

[13:24] CB Axel: But early man was more interested in surviving from day to day than in figuring out why the patterns they saw were there.

[13:24] herman Bergson: It looks like those Babylonians were pretty practical people

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess that can be the case

[13:25] CB Axel: Herman, even later than that the Catholic church used Latin so that only the priests could understand the writings.

[13:25] herman Bergson: True CB :-)

[13:25] CB Axel: Everyone else had to get their religion handed to them by those priests.

[13:26] CB Axel: Thet weren't encouraged to read and think for themselves.

[13:26] herman Bergson: Till the Reformation....1550 or so....

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:27] herman Bergson: But that is a different chapter of history

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Gutenberg!

[13:27] herman Bergson: To begin with Bejiita

[13:27] CB Axel: Right. Martin Luther and Johannes Gutenberg ruined everything for the priests.

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Books books and MORE books!

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:28] CB Axel: Yes, Bejiita, but also books in languages other than Latin.

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the printing press was a really important invention indeed

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:29] herman Bergson: The next step mankind had to take around 1500 BC was the step to theoretical and abstract thinking

[13:29] herman Bergson: That will be our next station :-)

[13:30] CB Axel: That will be interesting.

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): since and the WHY part of everything, not just "ok there is something, so what? Dnt have time for that"

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then just leave it

[13:31] herman Bergson: If you think about it.....this ability of homo sapiens to ask WHY.......the moment he discovered that must have been a historic one....

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also a step away from god and to how things mikght really work, Gravity, magnetism ect

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the church got VEEERY mad!

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:33] herman Bergson: Thusrsday we'll discover where the search for principles underlying the patterns started....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Unless you still have an unanswered question...........?

[13:34] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman and class.

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:34] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation ^_^

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): great again

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good subject

[13:34] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[13:34] herman Bergson: Thank you Bejiiita

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):


Tuesday, May 25, 2021

927: MedicaL Science...

Of course, homo sapiens has been familiar with illnesses and injuries from day one. 


Ötzi, also called the Iceman, is the natural mummy of a man who lived between 3400 and 3100 BCE, discovered in September 1991 


in the Ötztal Alps on the border between Austria and Italy. One of his possessions was herbs, probably used for medical purposes.


In Babylonia, the oldest known text is the "Treatise of Medical Diagnoses and Prognoses" from circa 1600 BC. 


It consists of forty clay tablets and contains about three thousand descriptions of diseases and their course. 


The Diagnostic Handbook, Sakikkil, dates from five centuries later. From this handbook, we also know the author, 


Esagil-kin-apli, who was a court scholar in the service of King Adad-apla-iddina (1067-1046 BC). 


This handbook contains not only descriptions of diseases, but also diagnostic procedures. 


The Babylonians were able to distinguish a variety of ailments, from strokes and epilepsy to disorders of the eyes, ears, skin, and heart.


In addition, the manual provides directions for the treatment of the conditions. 


Egyptian medicine is older than that in Babylonia: the Kahun papyrus from circa 1800 BC is in fact the oldest surviving medical document. 


It contains descriptions of women's diseases, elaborations on fertility and infertility, and the first description of a contraceptive. 


The later Ebers papyrus from around 1550 BC is no less than 20 meters long and lists seven hundred medicines and eight hundred prescriptions.


Some of these drugs indicate proven procedures. For example, the fried beef liver was prescribed for night blindness, which is rich in vitamin A, a deficiency of which can indeed cause the disease. 


As in legal science and astronomy, diagnoses, prognoses, and treatments followed an IF - THAN pattern. 


Within this pattern, we can distinguish three basic patterns in the Diagnostic Manual. 


The first pattern makes a diagnosis based on symptoms, sometimes with a prognosis: IF <symptoms> THEN <diagnosis and / or prognosis>. 


The other basic pattern establishes a treatment based on a diagnosis, sometimes mentioning the prognosis: IF <diagnosis> THEN <treatment and / or prognosis>. 


The patterns in the Diagnostic Handbook are systematically arranged, along the body from head to foot and left to right.


Nowadays it is possible to predict on the basis of genetic properties that someone will develop this or that condition. 


Of course, no such knowledge structure existed in the days of Egyptians and Babylonians. The pattern they followed was the IF - THAN pattern. 


There are no theoretical medical treatises from that time. It is therefore not known how the causal rules came about. 


The diagnostic and treatment rules may have arisen through trial-and-error in connection with traditional and ritual practices. 


There was no distinction between magic and germs as the cause of disease. The treatment could just as well consist of a herbal paste or an amulet or incantation formulas. 


But the gathering and recording of medical knowledge had thus begun.


Thank you for your attention again....


MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Rens Bod: "Een Wereld vol Patronen".  2019

The Discussion

[13:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:17] herman Bergson: What strikes me is how the consciousness of causality is so deeply embedded in our system

[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): seems to me it took a very long time between treatment then and today

[13:17] herman Bergson: We can't do without it

[13:18] herman Bergson: Some treatments were even counterproductive Beertje

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like drinking mercury and crude oil

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): those are classics

[13:19] CB Axel nods

[13:19] herman Bergson: or 'aderlating'.....draining blood from the patient...

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): OR radioactive things

[13:19] herman Bergson: I don't know the english word

[13:19] CB Axel: Or drinking bleach or taking hydrocholoroquin for covid. :)

[13:19] herman Bergson: lol

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahahahaha yes

[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol CB

[13:19] CB Axel: Blood letting, Herman.

[13:19] herman Bergson: it isfrom all times CB

[13:19] CB Axel: Or just bleeding.

[13:20] herman Bergson: ahh yes, blood letting

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (takes a slurp of hydrazine) mmm yum! Rocket fuel!

[13:20] CB Axel: If you drain enough blood you won't have a disease any more.

[13:20] herman Bergson: good for your hair, Bejiita :-)

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (flies through roof with a crash) CRABROOOSSSH!

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ooops sorry!

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hhahaha

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (rubs head)

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeeed many crazy methods existed, some worked some didn't

[13:21] herman Bergson: Again, given the circumstances....people in those days behaved as intelligent as we do

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the ones that worked are still around

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): more or less

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:22] herman Bergson: The brain didn't evolved further since those days it seems

[13:22] oola Neruda: I spent some time with Native Americans... and their concepts were quite ... unusual

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:22] CB Axel: Like what, oola?

[13:23] herman Bergson: Spend some time with Republicans and you find really unusual concepts :-)

[13:23] oola Neruda: well... witches... ghosts... magic... etc

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa the usual stuff them

[13:23] oola Neruda: same in Africa

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): WODOO

[13:23] CB Axel: Those seem normal for that time.

[13:23] herman Bergson: That you find still today in African countries where they do not trust western medicine

[13:23] oola Neruda: but there is modern medicine in both instances... but it is suspected of being bad

[13:24] CB Axel: When something isn't understood the go-to explanation is usually magic or something supernatural.

[13:24] herman Bergson: I those old times magic and medicine were  close and used next to each other

[13:25] herman Bergson: That is what Egyptians and Babylonians did CBm, indeed

[13:25] CB Axel: Too many people now still do it.

[13:25] CB Axel: God will cure them.

[13:25] oola Neruda: the Native American stance is... the doctor "gave me".... the flue or whatever the doctor said... chicken pox... the diagnosis.... but they felt that he gave that disease to them

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): give them some mercury mixed with hydrazine and bleach, maybe a bit sulphuric acid to top it off

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that should do magic!

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:26] CB Axel: Death cures everything.

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there is only one man who needs that Bejiita

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well not sure i would want to drink that for sure

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe indeed

[13:27] herman Bergson: the fact is, that medicines is knowledge and where there is no knowledge there is room for all kinds of beliefs

[13:28] oola Neruda: the Chinese emperor who had the clay armies buried.... was given mercury on a regular basis... he went mad

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like a hatter (same form of poisoning)

[13:28] CB Axel: Those clay armies are pretty cool, though. :)

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:29] CB Axel: Right, Bejiita.

[13:29] herman Bergson: I  agree CB

[13:29] oola Neruda: but not before preparing his "tomb" which included a RIVER of mercury to sustain him after life.... it is also why modern archeologists won't examine the "tomb" closely

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that sounds more like a trap to me

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but well that was indeed what they believed back then

[13:30] oola Neruda: no... he / they really believed in the mercury.... although they did notice his "decline" mentaly

[13:30] herman Bergson: What you see here is, that the medical actions were based on the IF - THEN pattern,

[13:30] CB Axel: Modern medicines are poisons, too, if the wrong amounts are taken.

[13:31] herman Bergson: but there was no underlying theory about the human body, about metabolism etc

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like ooops he died! maybe mercury was no good medicine after all!

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they couldn't know that at that time

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nope

[13:31] herman Bergson: Right Beertje

[13:31] CB Axel: They believed in the "humours."

[13:31] herman Bergson: for instance

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what i believe is they thought the liquid metal was sort of magic and thus had healing properties

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats one theory

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): as we don't know everything about the human body

[13:32] oola Neruda: blood letting with leaches

[13:32] CB Axel: We still use words like phlegmatic or sanguine to describe people's moods in English.

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because metals are normally solid

[13:32] herman Bergson: underlying theories in medicine date from the 19th century

[13:33] CB Axel: We still use leeches, too.

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:33] oola Neruda: 78yuk

[13:33] herman Bergson: At this moment with the Babylonians we are centuries away from the emergence of scientific theory

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)

[13:34] herman Bergson: In other words, we have still some lectures to go to see that happen.....^_^

[13:34] herman Bergson: For now we may put our brains to rest and enjoy a nice weekend....

[13:34] CB Axel: I'm afraid we're going backwards.

[13:34] oola Neruda: there is a book out now... amazing one... about the woman who came up with Crisper

[13:34] CB Axel: There are too many undereducated people around.

[13:34] herman Bergson: For some the Holy Spirit may come :-)

[13:35] herman Bergson: you mean that DNA technique oola?

[13:35] oola Neruda: yesw

[13:35] oola Neruda: yes

[13:35] CB Axel: Did you hear that the lawyer for one of the people who attacked the US capital building said that those people are just stupid?

[13:36] CB Axel: He's having to defend someone is it mentally deficient.

[13:36] herman Bergson: oh....yes good argument....

[13:36] CB Axel: Although, I think they're probably just uneducated.

[13:36] oola Neruda: yes

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the mob dudes?

[13:36] oola Neruda: lack of education

[13:37] CB Axel: Yes, Bejiita.

[13:37] Athwale: i need to go, sorry

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that is definitley true

[13:37] Athwale: have a nice evening

[13:37] CB Axel: The US educational systems are terrible.

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok At

[13:37] CB Axel: Bye, Athwale.

[13:37] oola Neruda: and attitudes around them that do not encourage education

[13:37] herman Bergson: Time to end our discussion.....

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye then

[13:37] Athwale: thank you Herman

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu arotound

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:37] herman Bergson: Thank you all again ....

[13:37] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:37] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[13:38] CB Axel: Bye, everyone. I hope you have a nice weekend. :)

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:38] herman Bergson: It is back to normal for you again CB :-)

[13:38] CB Axel: Now I'll go change into some more comfortable clothes. :)

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i like it the way you are dressed

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):


Thursday, May 20, 2021

926: Life isn't fair.....

In the previous lecture, I talked about how homo sapiens created a system of laws to keep society organized.


Law can be descriptive, like "when you kill someone, you will be killed" or prescriptive like "You are not allowed to marry your sister"


This enables everyone to live an organized and peaceful life. It gives room for personal development, personal growth, education. It is from all times.


We study the historic development of knowledge in this project. It is a bit of a side-track, but I want to add another idea to our look at history.


I recently read an article, that made me think and wonder about life from a particular perspective. I found it such a challenging idea, that I want to bring it to your attention.


The observation is from all times: Life isn't fair. Some people die young, while others grow very old. Some get sick, while others do not even get a cold.


Some people get rich, while others stay poor all their life. When you are born with black skin in a white society, you run the risk of discrimination. None of all this you asked for. Life is fundamentally unfair.


It doesn't matter in what time you live or lived, life is always the same: we live in a constant state of inequality.


In the previous lecture we saw, that homo sapiens had discovered causality:  IF < event > THEN < consequence >. And he applied it to his empirical world.


Thus we can conclude that this fundamental inequality must have a cause. Throughout history inequality has been accepted, justified in several ways:


God created the world like this, the law of nature, predestination, karma, fate. Whatever you like. If homo sapiens made any progress through times,


then it has been the growing consciousness that this inequality isn't fair. This often led to rebellion and revolutions.


In the most extreme case, it led to an egalitarian society where, to quote George Orwell, all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal. We all know how this ended.


In our liberal society we have, no, we think that we have discovered THE solution to social inequality. We have embraced the ideal of EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES.


From left to right politicians believe in a better society by creating equal chances for everyone, as the ultimate response to the skewed growth in their country - between arm and rich, high and low educated, white and colored, man and woman.


If everyone gets equal opportunities, the thought is, life will be fair again. Of course, all those politicians do not mean exactly the same as they talk about 'equal opportunities. 


On the right, more emphasis will focus on the responsibility of the individual, while the left sees a greater role for the government. 


With embracing 'equal opportunities' as the highest ideal, politicians show to be children of meritocracy: the idea that you have to grab a fair chance, and that if you don't do it, it is your own fault.


Don't get me wrong: of course, it is a good idea to combat, for example with intensive education, to combat illiteracy and reduce power inequality with taxes. 


But it is a misconception to think that such policies will take out opportunities. That is not possible. After all, you also are lucky or have bad luck with your genes, with your parents, or simply with everyday events.


LEt's just accept it: Life is unfair with regard to the individual and will always stay unfair. When born with a low IQ you'll never become a well-paid professor.


In fact, we have to return to the social state of the hunter-gatherer, whose survival depended on collective solidarity and mutual sharing.


If you would really like to make the world fair, another philosophy of fairness is needed. One that puts our sacred ability to grab opportunities in perspective. 


A perspective that does not see redistribution as an infringement of rightly acquired prosperity, but as a moral self-evidence. As a logical answer to the unavoidable inequality in every society.


We should not create a number of facilities to give people a so-called 'equal opportunity', and then leave them to their own. We have to redistribute as much as our society can handle.


The state cannot equalize the opportunities of all people. The state can certainly eradicate poverty and make a home affordable for everyone with our immense wealth. 


But do we dare to ask the required solidarity of the successful fellow man? Or are we too much in the grip of "from newspaper boy to millionaire"?


Thank you for your attention again....



MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Rens Bod: "Een Wereld vol Patronen".  2019

The Discussion


[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:23] herman Bergson: By the way...what just came to my mind....

[13:23] herman Bergson: Here in Europe there are ideas about giving everybody via the state a basic income....redistribution of the immense wealth

[13:24] herman Bergson: a way to fight inequality

[13:24] CB Axel: Yes, I heard they're trying that in Wales.

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and why not 

[13:24] herman Bergson: It makes sense

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mm

[13:25] herman Bergson: the liberal idea is, that when you are poor it is your own, is your problem , not of the community

[13:25] herman Bergson: But in fact that is very unfair.....

[13:26] herman Bergson: Did you ask for that handicap, that low IQ, that illness etc?

[13:26] CB Axel: Andrew Yang was pushing for that, based, I believe, on the writings of Rutger Bregman.

[13:26] CB Axel: Sadly, if a newspaper boy becomes a millionaire he often does everything he can to keep other newspaper boys from becoming millionaires.

[[13:26] herman Bergson: Sounds probable CB

[13:27] CB Axel: In fact, those millionaires don't even help the newsboys become thousand-aires (I just made up that word).

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): nice word CB:)

[13:27] herman Bergson: One basic problem is our concept of private property and the accumulation of property by a single individual

[13:28] herman Bergson: Keep in mind that WE invented that is not a law of nature

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ALL IS MINE! ONLY MINE!

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): THAT issue

[13:29] herman Bergson: Communism tried to change this, but it was counter intuitive

[13:30] herman Bergson: But I like the idea that life is intrinically unfair

[13:30] herman Bergson: and that we have to deal with this unfairness

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): The russian ways rarley work. Like Chernobyl they tend to go BAUUUUUM!

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed it was an attempt for a solution

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if people get a basic income...don't they ask what to do in return of that?

[13:31] herman Bergson: it the believe in creating equal chances and opportunities for everyone is a failing approach for a better world

[13:31] CB Axel: Read Bregman, Beertje.

[13:31] herman Bergson: Indeed CB :-)

[13:32] herman Bergson: People want to live a meaningful live Beertje....

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they can

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): even with a basic income

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:32] herman Bergson: not just be a consumer

[13:32] herman Bergson: yes....

[13:32] CB Axel: If people get a basic income they use it to pay for child care, transportation, housing, etc. It allows them to work at jobs they actually like.

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's good when you can feed your children

[13:33] herman Bergson: make yourself meaningful for the community

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:33] CB Axel: And if they have a bad boss they can tell him to F-off and quit.

[13:33] herman Bergson: Right ^_^

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont):

[13:34] CB Axel: It makes everyone better, because bosses have to treat their workers like human beings and not a piece of machinery they own.

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:34] CB Axel: And that's why the upper classes don't like it.

[13:34] herman Bergson: The basic idea is the question....Who OWNS this earth....?

[13:34] CB Axel: They'd have to act like nice people.

[13:34] herman Bergson: In fact....nobody....

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ME ME MEEEEEEEEEEE!

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lool

[13:35] herman Bergson: so what we have to do is to share the wealth it offers us

[13:35] CB Axel: Bejiita, if you own the earth please fix it up!

[13:35] CB Axel: It's getting trashed!!

[13:35] herman Bergson: IT's all your fault Bejiita !!!!!

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i soo wish i could do that for sure, could need a bit of help though

[13:35] CB Axel: LOL

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed its a bit trashed as now

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and it needs to be fixed somehow

[13:36] CB Axel: Treat your workers well and pay them a living wage and I'm sure they'll be happy to help you fix the earth. :)

[13:36] herman Bergson: of course this all may sound a little utopian.....

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (aims LHC accelerator at Herman) What did u say!

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ?

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well we can at least hope

[13:36] herman Bergson: but the ideas, the seeds, are there......we have to rethink our existence

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): pull slowly in the right direction

[13:37] herman Bergson: It will take generations

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least im trying to make some difference, cleaning up terash etc where i find it

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): trash

[13:39] herman Bergson: There is a better future possible....

[13:39] herman Bergson: Maybe these ideas will help to achieve it

[13:40] herman Bergson: I think it is time to send you out and go and improve the world :-))

[13:40] herman Bergson: Thank you all for doing so :-))

[13:41] CB Axel: I'll do what I can, but life is so unfair!

[13:41] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....^_^

[13:41] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:41] CB Axel: CU all on Thursday. :) Bye