Thursday, April 30, 2020

846: The Blessings of the State.....

Let's return to Thomas Hobbes (1588 - 1679). He believed that the freedom of our ancestors led to a war of all against all 
and that only a social contract, that is forming a hierarchical state with a ruler at the top, had brought us peace and prosperity.
Nothing is less true, we now know....
"Against The Grain: A Deep History of the Earliest States" is a 2017 book by James C. Scott that sets out to undermine what he calls the "standard civilizational narrative", 
that suggests humans chose to live settled lives based on intensive agriculture because this made people safer and more prosperous.
Instead, he argues, people had to be forced to live in the early states, which were hierarchical, beset by malnutrition and disease, and often based on slavery. 
Numerous hunters / gatherers were on the run from the state. The first states, such as Uruk in Mesopotamia (2900 BC) or the Egypt of the pharaohs (2400 BC), were all slave states
A review in "Science" magazine concludes that the book's thesis "is fascinating and represents an alternative, nuanced, if somewhat speculative, scenario on how civilized society came into being."
It is ironic to discover, that what we use to call milestones of civilization, the invention of money, writing and administration of justice, were in the beginning in fact milestones of repression.
Take the first coins. Money was not invented because it seemed so convenient, but forced upon the people to make collecting taxes easier. 
Or the script: do not think that the first written texts were love poems. The earliest texts were long lists of debts to be paid off.
And the administration of Justice? The oldest law text, the Code of Hammurabi contains a lot of punishments for people who help slaves escape.
How much fun is living in a state? Founding Father Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790) knew it. He wrote "No European who has tasted the wild life can tolerate living in our society afterwards."
If a "civilized" white was kidnapped by the original population and then freed again, he "attempted to escape to the forests again at the earliest opportunity," said Franklin. 
Hundreds of settlers fled into the wilderness, while the reverse hardly occurred. Life in the woods simply offered more freedom than life as a farmer and taxpayer.

We are educated with the idea that you had in history two groups. On the one hand, you have the civilized people.
About them we have to think positively and on the other hand you have the barbarians and savages. Those we have to pity or fear.
It seems that the opposite is true. Those so called barbarians and savages lived in general a relaxed life, free from epidemics, taxes or suppressing rulers.
In fact we have to pity the civilized people, who have lost their freedom, live in stinking cities, are victims of taxes, pandemics and famines.
Our idea of history is in fact upside down. Civilization has become synonymous with peace and progress, 
while the wilderness has become synonymous with war and destruction. In reality, for most of our history, it was rather the other way around. 
But does this apply to our ancestors only or also to our present civilization? Let's discuss that in the next lecture.

Thank you for your attention again.....

Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Rutger Bregman, "De meeste mensen deugen",, 2019

The Discussion
[13:18]   By the you find some examples of legislation anno 1754 BC
[13:18] herman Bergson: if fun to read...
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:19] herman Bergson: Even women have rights in that legislation
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): love the first one
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the accuser goes
[13:19] herman Bergson: a lot of rules one is put to death
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): everything was much more brutal before I guess
[13:20] herman Bergson: I love 142 :-)
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): poor dad
[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita for centuries life was very brutal
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like in the middle ages (shudders)
[13:21] herman Bergson: yes...
[13:22] herman Bergson: it even lasted till 1800 or so
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): she shall be thrown in the water......I hope she can swim:)
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some are very good actually
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa the classic witch hunts
[13:22] herman Bergson: The text IS amazing...
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how did these judges know if a man was speaking the truth?
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill save this one, it MIGHT come to use in some horror game
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wine shop and burning
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear
[13:23] herman Bergson: I have no idea Beertje :-)
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): many of thee laws are like what we say in Sweden (ge igen med samma mynt)
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but worse then that
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even
[13:24] herman Bergson: What is interesting to note is that Rousseau seems to have been right so far...
[13:25] herman Bergson: It is what Benjamin Franklin observed
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what do you mean igen med samma mynt..give again with the same coin??? Bejiita?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): do the same thing back
[13:27] herman Bergson: met gelijke munt terug betalen, misschien? :-)
[13:27] herman Bergson: an eye for an eye
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like you push my eye out I push your eye out4
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes that was what I was looking for
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very old too
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok, I understand, :))
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that term
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but then violence never stops
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but most do not practice it
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes indeed that very true
[13:29] herman Bergson: So far we have seen that Rousseau's idea that civilization is a curse, makes sense from his perspective about 1670
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): an endless chain of hatred ad war, actually the Anime series Naruto explain this never ending chain quite well but with a VERY complex story
[13:30] herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll give you some hope for the future though :-)
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope so
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i hope so Herman
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): actually this virus is almost like alien invasion
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sort of
[13:31] herman Bergson: yes there is hope....for most people are OK :-)
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if it brings the world more together is the question
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:31] herman Bergson: THis virus shows also something else.....
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed it feels a bit like the nature is striking back trying to get rid of us for polluting it
[13:32] herman Bergson: if it were the Middle Ages maybe 40% of our population would have died because of it....
[13:32] herman Bergson: Today it is totally different....
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true
[13:32] herman Bergson: Besides that...we are even able to create a vaccine against it....
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): till seems very lethal in general, many bus drivers have for ex died from it 2 in my city
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still
[13:33] herman Bergson: Not Dettol or Lysol
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but we stil have the common cold~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so fingers crossed
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa
[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes but we don't die of it anymore Gemma :-)
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no but there was no vaccine~!!!!!!
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): after all this time
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): because the virus changes
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's why it's zo difficult to make a vaccine
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so does covid19
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the cold is just a bit cumbersome but this seems like another beast, but well just hope for the best
[13:34] herman Bergson: I haven't had a cold for ages....can't remember when...
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all one can do
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): shhhhh
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): might get one tomorrow
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) shouts: me either
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oops lol
[13:35] herman Bergson: you want to e-mail me one, Gemma? :-))
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nope
[13:35] herman Bergson: Then I'll gooogle it :-))
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (writes a cold virus in javascript/Node and mails to Hermans inbox)
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): muhaha
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): naaa thats just mean doing
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): next level of mailing Bejiita?
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: Won't pass my anti-virus protection program., BEjiita ^_^
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): luckily computer viruses don't affect people,
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not yet:))
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well they do after they loose all data and money
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): make one crazy tho
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thats bad enough
[13:37] herman Bergson: Seems there are pacemakers that can be hacked
[13:37] CB Axel: I've heard that Covid19 isn't mutating like some other corona viruses like the common cold, so a vaccine might be practical.
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh hope so
[13:37] CB Axel: Oh, you can mess up a pacemaker with a very strong magnet.
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): htey can tell the difference where it came from already tho
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): problem with IOT devices is no one seem to care that they even can be hacked = no security
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there are diffenten Covid 19 viruses in the world
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some mutation to Europe from china
[13:37] CB Axel: I've seen doctors check on people's pacemakers in the ER using a magnet.
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ad to usa they can tell
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they just want everything so easy to use as possible so people will buy them and not complain
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with my asus router WLAN will not work unless I set a safe password and ncryption
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there are different corona virus
[13:38] CB Axel: The common cold is a corona virus.
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:39] herman Bergson: Corona virus is the name of a group of viruses....the 19 refers to the discovery year of this one...2019
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks corvid is singular tho
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ye the name is wrongly used cause it a group and not a single virus
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also put the corona beer in bad light, that I like drinking in summer
[13:39] CB Axel: Covid. Corvids are very clever birds. :)
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I feel sad for them
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the brewery
[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes that is a serious problem, Bejiita....a beer with a virus in it :-)
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im not sure all the corona beer jokes are a good commercial, rather bad asocciation
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): poor corona beer
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): drinking Leffe now....
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nice beer
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I mean I like it and I WILL continue drinking in.
[13:40] herman Bergson: Not bad Beertje :-)
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): triple:)
[13:41] CB Axel: People in the US were avoiding Chinese restaurants, too.
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Leffe = slang for Swedish name Leif
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some people bej
[13:41] CB Axel: I picked up some Chinese take away just to show my support. :)
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but don't remember if it s a Swedish beer,
[13:41] CB Axel: And because I love Chinese food. :)
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good for you
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): me too CB:)
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): althoug I get a big butt from Chinese food:)))))
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes I had asian food this Saturday at a nearby place
[13:42] herman Bergson: In China they now are discriminating workers from Nigeria......for they allegedly re-import the virs...
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh brother
[13:42] CB Axel: It's crazy. viruses don't care who you are or where you came from. :(
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true :(
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hurray for civiliisation:)
[13:43] CB Axel: People are so stupid.
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some people
[13:43] herman Bergson: The Chinese try to talk down their responsibility for the situation
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): viruses are just bad code(rna) its not even alive
[13:43] CB Axel: Not like corvids who are very clever. lol
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well one thing they did right was send out the dna right away
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm as usual indeed Herman
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): at least
[13:43] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.
[13:44] CB Axel: The Chinese government did try to cover up the number of deaths in the very beginning, but I think they've acted responsibly since then.
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): me too
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the Chinese started it by their unsanitary habit of eating bats and also in unsanitary conditions
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the bat eating is an issue
[13:45] CB Axel nods
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its like with the pest, that was spread by rats
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bats, cats, and dogs
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and civet cats
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the black plague
[13:45] herman Bergson: That is the result of the domestication of animals in the Neolithic....
[13:46] herman Bergson: we introduced it ourselves by leaving our hunter/gatherer lifestyle
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): here in the Netherlands the mink farms are infected
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we  expect a lot of nature don't we
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): do what we want or get out of our way
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so animals can have Covid19 too
[13:47] herman Bergson: in the Netherlands we recently have seen a transfer of the virus from man on animal
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i thought so far only large cats... lions
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well the bat obviously had it
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): where it all started
[13:47] CB Axel: A couple of house cats got it recently.
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ouch
[13:47] herman Bergson: Ahh...
[13:47] herman Bergson: serious matter
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): horses can also get it I read
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but does it make the cat sick???
[13:47] CB Axel: From what I've heard they can get it from us, but we don't think we can get it from them.
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:48] CB Axel: Yes. I believe so.
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why not CB, we got it from bats too
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we really know so little so far
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no the bat bites a civet cat
[13:48] CB Axel: Viruses don't generally move from one species to another easily.
[13:48] herman Bergson: I feel safe only when there is a vaccine...
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tehn the person gets it
[13:48] CB Axel: The bats don't seem to get sick.
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:49] CB Axel: the cats get mild respiratory symptoms
[13:49] CB Axel: I don't know what would happen if you ate the cats.
[13:49] herman Bergson: I already have killed my cat :-)
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but an animal can be a carrier of a virus and give it to us people?
[13:50] CB Axel: Yes.
[13:50] CB Axel: MERS came from camels.
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you killed a cat Herman?
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that seems fully logical, just as with black plague in the middle ages
[13:50] herman Bergson: Ugly habit of dogs licking your face.....bbrrr
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thta is a kiss
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the rats I don't think got sick from it but almost entire Europe died
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yak
[13:51] herman Bergson: Well...I think we have saved the world again today enough.....:-)
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we are approaching 58000 deaths
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and of topic:))
[13:51] herman Bergson: Thank you for your participation again :-)
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok back for me to my javascript viruses and bugs
[13:51] herman Bergson: YEs GEmma....more than in 12 years of Vietnam war
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope to make it Thursday
[13:51] herman Bergson: horrible...
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again
[[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Bejiita
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): unless boss calls a conference on internet
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): beware of the virus
[13:52] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class:-) .,... a vaccine will come! but please don't drink disinfectant!
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:52] CB Axel: I'll see you all Thursday. Bye.
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:52] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye:-)s
[13:52] herman Bergson: I just emptied a glass of disinfectant Bergie.....
[13:53] herman Bergson: They say that alcohol is a disinfectant!

Monday, April 27, 2020

845: The Transition....

It must have been a daunting task to convince people that land, animals or even people can be someone's property. 
After all, hunters and collectors shared pretty much everything. 
In addition, with the invention of property, inequality between people began to grow. 
After death, properties were even passed on to subsequent generations. Thus, the legacy was invented, which further widened the gap between rich and poor. 
It is fascinating that in exactly this period, after the end of the Ice Age, the first wars also broke out. 
It was precisely when we settled in one place that we built the first military fortifications, according to archaeological research. 
Cave painters began to depict archers attacking each other. Numerous skeletons have been excavated dating to this time, with clear signs of violence. 
How did it come to this?
Scientist  see two possible reasons: the first on is, that there was something to fight over, land and cattle.
Wandering hunter / gatherers formed rather open groups and time and again they met other groups. Switching from group to group must have been common practice.
Villagers, on the other hand, became focused on themselves and their possessions. Homo sapiens changed from cosmopolitan to xenophobic.
One of the main reasons yet to work together with strangers was actually war. Tribes forged alliances with other tribes.
You can imagine how the proces went on through the ages: military leaders were needed. At a given moment such a military machos became a permanent leader.
Because Homo sapiens had given up his nomadic way of life, he lived close together with others on one spot and also close together with domesticated animals.
Measles, smallpox, tuberculosis, syphilis, malaria, cholera, the plague: all these plagues were created after we gave up our nomadic lifestyle.
All these illnesses were a present from our new pets, the sheep, cows, ducks. It still happens.  
In 2007, Q fever broke out in the Netherlands: the largest recorded outbreak of the disease in the world, a really dangerous disease.
Q fever is an infectious disease that is spread to humans by goats and sheep. And today we have our COVID-19 allegedly from bats.
With the emergence of the first major settlements, religious life began to change radically. For the first time, people believed in powerful and vengeful gods.
As I said in the previous lecture, by settling in one place and the switch to agriculture we got trapped in our own "invention".
Agriculture and property became things to fight for and so the smaller villages were overpowered by the larger villages, these again by cities, which were again annexed by provinces. 
Alliances had to be scaled up further to form larger armies. And eventually this led to the last disaster, which Rousseau would also write about:
the birth of the STATE.
Thank you for your attention again....

Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Rutger Bregman, "De meeste mensen deugen",, 2019

The Discussion

[13:15] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what lies beyond the state?
[13:15] herman Bergson: My pleasure CB :-)
[13:16] herman Bergson: So far perhaps the EU
[13:16] CB Axel: I can't help thinking that during our hunter/gatherer phase that we didn't fight.
[13:16] CB Axel: Wouldn't one family fight another over a good patch of land with lots of good food?
[13:16] herman Bergson: From archeological finds it seems to show that we didn't fight in that era, CB
[13:17] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.
[13:17] CB Axel: I think we need to look for more evidence.
[13:17] herman Bergson: It seems that groups just moved on to other places instead of fighting
[13:17] CB Axel: I honestly don't believe that there wasn't conflict.
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there was room enough on the planet then
[13:18] herman Bergson: Oh there may have been....
[13:18] CB Axel: I suppose so.
[13:18] herman Bergson: Indeed Beertje...
[13:18] CB Axel: They would have had less to carry with them if they had to move to another place.
[13:18] herman Bergson: groups were small and the  land was wide...
[13:18] herman Bergson: so why fighting if you can go elsewhere
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah I guess
[13:19] herman Bergson: Dont forget....homo sapiens is reluctant to use violence
[13:19] CB Axel: I guess once they started farming there would be farm tools that they'd have to carry around, too.
[13:19] herman Bergson: I said...the moment we developed the idea of property there was a reason to fight each other :-)
[13:20] herman Bergson: But that was what we call the Neolithic era
[13:20] herman Bergson: starting about 11.000 BC
[13:21] herman Bergson: Before that we were hunter/gatherers
[13:21] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): but animals also fight each other
[13:21] CB Axel: Yeah. Apes do.
[13:21] herman Bergson: It happens...but not for amusement...
[13:22] CB Axel: And they're not farming.
[13:22] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): I fail to see what a state-less world would look like
[13:22] herman Bergson: They don't fight each other to enrich themselves for instance
[13:23] herman Bergson: I guess a state-less world isn't possible anymore....
[13:23] CB Axel: Don't they fight over territory?
[13:23] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): A world without frontiers, who would we pay our taxes to? how would we orchestrate our efforts to build organ-donor networks, hospitals, roads
[13:24] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): Yes, we seem to share with them the territorial instinct
[13:24] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): which I guess was present before we abandoned our nomadic lifestyle..
[13:24] CB Axel: So if they're fighting over territory then they're fight over what to them are riches.
[13:24] herman Bergson: animals  fight for territory indeed, but don't kill for it...they chance the intruder away
[13:25] CB Axel: Ever since primatologist Jane Goodall’s pioneering work at Gombe Stream National Park in Tanzania in the 1970s, researchers have been aware that male chimps often organize themselves into warring gangs that raid each other’s territory, sometimes leaving mutilated dead bodies on the battlefield.
[13:26] herman Bergson: YEs indeed...that was a great shock to Jane Goodall in those days....she kept it silent for a long time
[13:26] CB Axel: I know that's long, and I'm sorry, but we're not that different than chimps.
[13:26] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): how would we protect the elderly and pay them retirement pensions, or build up educational systems, its difficult enough to coordinate a nation, coordinating the whole world is mission impossible
[13:26] herman Bergson: Chimps are indeed mean fellows
[13:26] CB Axel: And we're not?
[13:27] CB Axel: Anyway, I think Elizabeth is right that we need some sort of government.
[13:27] herman Bergson: If you want a straight answer is NO in my opinion
[13:28] herman Bergson: We have ethics....we are bale to have amoral debate...
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): most people are ok I guess
[13:28] herman Bergson: Good point Bejiita ^_^
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like us in here
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we are not mean
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:28] CB Axel: bale?
[13:29] herman Bergson: In stead of fighting each other we have learned to share, created democracy and so on
[13:29] CB Axel: Oh, able. Sorry. I get it.
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:29] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): what did Rousseau propose?
[13:29] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): as an alternative to the State?
[13:29] CB Axel: So language is why we don't fight as much as we could?
[13:29] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): small autonomous communities? or .. some sort of anarchic paradigm? um
[13:29] herman Bergson: Well diplomacy is a great thing indeed CB
[13:30] CB Axel: I'm trying to understand how different early man was from other apes.
[13:30] herman Bergson: Retounon al la nature....:-) if I am not mistaken Elisabeth
[13:31] herman Bergson: But we'll discuss this question in the coming lectures
[13:31] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): according to Yuval Noah Harari the difference resides in the fact that thanks to abstract thought we learned how to collaborate in large groups in a synchronized manner towards a common goal.
[13:31] herman Bergson: My French is bad...Retournon
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how can we returner to nature again?
[13:31] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): nods
[13:32] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): interesting.. these days that idea is quite popular
[13:32] herman Bergson: We can't of course....that was Rousseau's observation....civilization had ruined us
[13:32] herman Bergson: We have lost our natural state
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) is online.
[13:32] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): returning to nature, growing your own vegetables, setting up small independent eco-villages
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:33] herman Bergson: quite a job with billions of people today in big cities
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): brewing your on beer
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): own
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that ive wanted to learn for a while
[13:33] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): Rousseau seemed to be hyper-focused in the bad aspects of civilization and forgot to look into all the advantages maybe
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even theree are already so many good tasty one available
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:34] herman Bergson: You got a point there Elisabeth...
[13:34] herman Bergson: Elisabeth
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:35] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): synchronized and FLEXIBLE manner*
[13:35] herman Bergson: What is clear is, that homo sapiens walked a specific road....
[13:36] herman Bergson: I think that there is no logic in just happened that way due to environmental circumstances, opportunities etc...
[13:36] CB Axel: Gemma just let me know that her boss scheduled a conference during this class. That's why she's not here. :(
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): damn her boss!
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki
[13:37] herman Bergson: Besides that I think the route is also shown by the brain....the choices homo sapiens made
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is the route taken by free will?
[13:37] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): our brain has not actually changed much in 40.000 years I think?
[13:37] herman Bergson: He's fired CB....
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): taken
[13:38] herman Bergson: No...I don't think so Elisabeth...
[13:38] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): Yuval N. Harari says that if we took an homo Sapiens from the planes of East Africa from 40.000 years ago and dressed him up + gave him a hair-cut.. he would be identical to an instagramer
[13:38] herman Bergson: we had the four lobs , the 1.4 cc volume....since 15.000 years ago
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:39] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): let me re-check the number of years
[13:39] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): its been a while since I read sapiens
[13:39] CB Axel: Today's brain is just more full of cat videos.
[13:39] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): Axel lool
[13:40] herman Bergson: The time table is on the wall behind  d you Elisabeth
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:40] herman Bergson: no no videos here!
[13:40] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): im googling Cognitive Revolution Harari Sapiens, sec
[13:40] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): :p
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes Herman:)
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I don't look at cat videos too much though, I google more UE4 stuff
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and code
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well not just that
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the cats are a classic yes
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:41] herman Bergson: comes after porn, Bejiita :-)))
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha well sort of
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I gue
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ss
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:42] herman Bergson: but all about pussies
[13:42] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): 70.000 years ago, thats when the cognitive revolution happened (abstract thought, language..
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe that is why
[13:42] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): shrugs
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): internet is a strange beast
[13:43] herman Bergson: CB...I once was sitting on a terras and a Woman addressed her dog in German....
[13:43] herman Bergson: and I wondered does she know her dog understands German
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe she only speaks German to it
[13:44] CB Axel: Maybe it was an Alsatian. :)
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's the tone of her voice
[13:44] herman Bergson: YEs was a german lady
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and germans bark like a dog...
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): listen to the language:)
[13:45] CB Axel: She's lucky she and her dog understood the same language.
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ACHTUNG!
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): LOL
[13:45] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): lol
[13:45] herman Bergson: Anyway...Guess it is time to end our discussion, unless you wish to continue
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sorry bergie:)
[13:45] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): nice points, ty
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:45] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): food for thought
[13:45] CB Axel: Interesting lecture and discussion.
[13:46] CB Axel: Thank you, everyone.
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa gonna eat a pan pizza and code React
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then sleep
[13:46] herman Bergson: You are always welcome to have another dinner here Elisabeth :-)
[13:46] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): ty
[13:46] Elisabeth (elisabeth3210): ^^
[13:46] herman Bergson: So...thank you all agin for this pleasant class and debate...
[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:46] CB Axel: See you all next week. :)
[13:47] CB Axel: Bye
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): stay healthy
[13:47] herman Bergson: Bye CB
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye all
[13:47] herman Bergson: Bye Bejiita...happy coding