Tuesday, September 28, 2021

943: An explanation.....

What we are trying to discover in the history of knowledge is how Homo sapiens time and again managed to recognize patterns and capture them step by step in principles. 


We find, however, a fascinating discrepancy in the medical science of the Greeks: while in most sciences they strived for an ever greater convergence between principles and patterns, 


the Hippocratic physicians in medicine apparently contented themselves with principles largely independent of patterns and also with ideas that were far removed from actual reality. 


Possibly this discrepancy can be explained from the classical Greek world view, according to which the microcosm was a reflection of the macrocosm. 


There was a certain fascination with the number four and not just among the Greeks. We see this fascination with four in many cultures and religions.


For Pythagoras (c. 570 – c. 495 BC) the ratios 1 : 2 : 3 : 4 were the expression of cosmic harmony.


According to Aristotle, the Pythagoreans used mathematics for solely mystical reasons, devoid of practical application. 


They believed that all things were made of numbers. The number one, the monad, represented the origin of all things and the number two, the dyad, represented matter.


The number three was an "ideal number" because it had a beginning, middle, and end[ and was the smallest number of points 


that could be used to define a plane triangle, which they revered as a symbol of the god Apollo. 


The number four signified the four seasons and the four elements. 


The four human fluids blood, phlegm, black bile and yellow bile thus corresponded to the four cosmic elements: fire, water, earth and air, 


to the four seasons and even to the four stages of man's life, being child, adolescent, adult, elderly. 


The humor theory formed an all-encompassing world view from which it was not easy to deviate. 


In addition, the divergence of medical principles and patterns can also be understood from the fact that the physician was seen primarily as a scholar: surgical practices were left to specialized craftsmen. 


The Hippocratic Oath even forbade doctors to cut a body. As a result, less attention was paid to empirical patterns than was the case in the other sciences.


Nevertheless, concrete discoveries are also being made, especially in Alexandria, where empiricism in medicine reigned supreme. 


Not only did the study of anatomy boom, hernia operations and even eye operations and trachea operations were performed for the first time.


Herophilus of Chalcedon (c. 330-260 BC, so at the time of Aristotle) ​​distinguished arteries from veins, noting that arteries had a pulse as opposed to ordinary blood vessels. 


Herophilus was also the first to publicly perform anatomical dissections. His greatest achievement is probably the dissection of the nerves, which he discovered were connected to the brain. 


Herophilus also related the nervous system to movement and experience, and placed intelligence in the brain. Yet this development has been lost and medicine has remained more theoretical and philosophical. 


This bit of history reminds me of a pattern: As long as it concerns observations of the empirical "outer world", Homo sapiens is willing to get scientific, 


but as soon as it concerns his body and "inner world", spiritual principles are sought, the influence of gods, a soul, sickness as God's will, death as the way to reincarnation, and so on. 


Even in 2021, we still encounter fierce resistance to a scientific worldview here and there, with the anti-vaxers leading the way these days.


Thank you for your attention again...

The Discussion

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:27] herman Bergson smiles

[13:27] herman Bergson: Nice bit of history :-)

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): with the Internet some things that are told are hard to believe

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is true and what is not

[13:28] herman Bergson: sure...it needs facts checking...

[13:29] herman Bergson: Of course, a lot of what I tell you isnot produced by MY brain :-)

[13:29] herman Bergson: I read books.....

[13:30] herman Bergson: and thence I accept facts on authority of the author of the book....I have to trust him

[13:30] oola Neruda: depends upon who does the fact checking... I was kicked off of Face Book within seconds of saying Trump lied about the election being stolen

[13:30] oola Neruda: mere seconds

[13:30] herman Bergson: weird...

[13:31] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol holy cow facebook!! i hate it

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes...not the best place to find reliable facts

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but what Oola said was the truth, and yes they removed her

[13:32] oola Neruda: if i give them all kinds of info about my parents, birthplace... drivers license ...etc... they will "let me return".... well... they can wait ...forever... i want nothing more to do with them

[13:32] herman Bergson: and later they removed Trump because of his lies

[13:33] oola Neruda: none too soon..... they sure put up with a lot of hogwash before being pressured into it

[13:33] oola Neruda: follow the money

[13:33] herman Bergson: But bacl to the issue....

[13:33] herman Bergson: back

[13:34] herman Bergson: A lot of our knowledge of facts is based on accepting reliable authorities

[13:34] herman Bergson: That is...we assume that they are reliable

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lots of people say they are reliable, but aren't

[13:35] oola Neruda: right

[13:36] herman Bergson: Well....let me restrict this claim of reliability to scientists....and even they now and then manipulate their data

[13:36] oola Neruda: publication... and peer review

[13:36] herman Bergson: But deceit is an incident in science not common practice (I hope:-)

[13:37] herman Bergson: right oola

[13:38] oola Neruda: lose you reputation... and job

[13:38] herman Bergson: yes has happened a few times in the Netherlands

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but was that the same in the time of the old Greek?

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): did people believe everything they said?

[13:38] herman Bergson: Don't think they were fact checkers Beertje

[13:39] herman Bergson: A lot was still explained in terms of religious like explanations...

[13:39] oola Neruda: one thing is that an experiment must be reproducible..... to pass inspection by other scientists... who do reproduce it to be sure

[13:39] herman Bergson: a lot must have been a matter of belief

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes oola...these days we have such safeguards....the Greek were still far away from that level of knowledge acquisition

[13:40] oola Neruda: nods

[13:41] herman Bergson: The process we are studying is actually the story how we went from believers to hardcore scientists

[13:42] herman Bergson: What I find amazing is that the Alexandria medicines were very empirical ......and it was not accepted

[13:43] oola Neruda: ignorance a fear win many battles

[13:44] herman Bergson: My Latin teacher always said: Against stupidity even gods fight in vain...:-)

[13:44] oola Neruda: and fill hospital beds .... barring others from getting help

[13:44] herman Bergson: Ok...hora est :-)

[13:45] herman Bergson: let's  conclude our talk and let me thank you again :-)

[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed  .....

[13:45] oola Neruda: thank you Herman

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ~Never argue with an idiot, they'll take you to their level then beat you with experience~

[13:45] herman Bergson: A pleasant weekend for you all :-)

[13:46] herman Bergson: lol

[13:46] herman Bergson: so true Beertje

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))

[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and mädels:-) = girls

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

Tuesday, September 21, 2021

941: Nature or Nurture....?

 We are investigating the history of knowledge. It is an amazing process. Of course, homo sapiens has known things from the moment he became a self-conscious being.


How that happened we don't know, but from that moment on he began to collect knowledge The problem is, 


that knowledge is an abstract concept without any reference to the tangible world. It is a very powerful concept, yet it has no clear definition so far. 


From the Greek philosophers up to present experts in knowledge management, people tried to define knowledge but the results are still very fuzzy.


For our convenience we have assumed that recognizing patterns and converging them into principles with which we can predict new situations, is our way of knowing the world around us.


Systematic recording of this started when the hunter-gatherer settled down and began to live in settlements.


And the first thing he had to know was how many sheep and goats he had, which brought the idea of numbers and counting to his mind.


We have seen how. the human brain developed far more than counting. Abstract thinking developed, geometry and mathematics.


In the previous lecture we saw that also the process of reasoning was analyzed in its patterns and thus the principles of logic and correct reasoning were formulated.


Most of the time, when we look at history regarding these subjects we find our starting point in the early history of the Greek: Pythagoras, Archimedes, Euclides, Aristotle, to name a few.


You can easily be inclined to assume that this development of knowledge is a cultural thing, but I don't think so. 


I even think that it is a biological thing, that it is based on the way we are physically constructed, in other words based on the way our brain works.


To some extend it is influenced by the environment we live in, but if you look at complex themes like mathematics and logic, you see something else.


In other parts of the world, in our case in India and China, we see a similar development of logic and mathematics as in Greece.


A most striking example we find in China in Mohism or Moism  was an ancient Chinese philosophy of logic, rational thought and science developed by the academic scholars who studied under the ancient Chinese philosopher Mozi (c. 470 BC – c. 391 BC) 


The interaction between mathematics and logic was less strong in China than in Greece. Mohism saw logic as the basis of all other disciplines, such as mathematics, astronomy, ethics. 


According to the Mohists, proper reasoning and argumentation require general principles. 


As a first principle, they stated that of two contradictory statements, one must be false. 


In addition, it was proposed as the second principle that contradictory statements cannot both be false, one of the two must be true. 


Surprisingly, these principles are similar to Aristotle's general principles of reasoning: the law of non-contradiction and the law of the excluded third, respectively. 


There was no intellectual contact between the Greeks and Chinese in ancient times, although it is possible that this was exchanged through trade contacts.


This example that the primary source and tool for gathering knowledge is, independent of any cultural situation, our brain, which functions in the same way in all healthy human beings.


Thank you for your attention again....


The Discussion

[13:11] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:11] herman Bergson: In other words...all men are equal :-)

[13:11] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:11] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): questions that

[13:12] herman Bergson: In this case I mean biologically

[13:12] Jane Fossett: doesn't human genetics argue for a very similar brain structure? But doesn't Quantum Mechanics violate common experience logic?

[13:12] herman Bergson: Indeed Jane

[13:12] Jane Fossett: phew thought so

[13:13] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks some more recent investigation is finding subtle difference in some structures

[13:13] herman Bergson: QM is a strange duck in the pont....

[13:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Inside we are same and our surroundings ect probably forms the cunture for a specific region, what we are exposed to in that particular environment

[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 'and then we build on it and voila, African culture, Asian culture ect

[13:14] herman Bergson: Of course there are differences caused by our environment

[13:14] Jane Fossett: strange cat in shroedinge'rs box

[13:14] herman Bergson: dead or alive :-))

[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:14] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oh dear

[13:15] herman Bergson: oops

[13:15] herman Bergson: lol

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Herman is drunk?

[13:15] herman Bergson: seems I activated some gesture

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he do the whisky culture!

[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): denk aan je rug:)

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a nice one

[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or having a brain attack

[13:16] herman Bergson: Well, it didn't hurt that much :-)

[13:16] CONNIE Eichel is online.

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its not my scripts this time at least, havent touched any editor for now

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): looked funny though

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:17] herman Bergson: But what amazes me is that in a period of 500 BC till 350 AD several cultures independently developed mathematics and logic

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a fun culture is a good culture also

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes thats true

[13:17] herman Bergson: For some reason it seems that our brain ticks that way

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): did something happen at that time that triggered this development?

[13:18] herman Bergson: All cultures have to count.....

[13:18] herman Bergson: I think so yes.....private property

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a common thing yes

[13:18] herman Bergson: you had to count your cattle and measure your land

[13:19] Jane Fossett: isnt logic based on our common experience?

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good question beertje

[13:19] herman Bergson: the hunter-gatherer had hardly any private property....he didn't own land for instance

[13:19] Jane Fossett: QM is 'irrational' in contrast

[13:20] herman Bergson: It has to be based oon our experience Jane...

[13:20] herman Bergson: We have a deep sense for binary thinking....

[13:21] herman Bergson: it is warm or cold, painfull or pleasant dark or light etc etc

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:21] herman Bergson: I think it is a basic mechanism of our brain

[13:21] Jane Fossett: yes

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems probable

[13:21] herman Bergson: dangerous or safe...a primary one, I guess

[13:22] herman Bergson: It is mine or not mine....cant be both

[13:22] herman Bergson: We think binary

[13:22] herman Bergson: or love to do so, in fact

[13:23] herman Bergson: people don't like nuance

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:23] herman Bergson: The binary thinking gives us a feeling of security....

[13:24] herman Bergson: you are with me or against me....

[13:24] herman Bergson: there is no third option

[13:24] herman Bergson: we get nervous if someone says...I am impartial

[13:24] Jane Fossett: but we live in three dimensional space

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and think analog

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): computers think binary

[13:25] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:25] herman Bergson: of four if you add time too

[13:25] herman Bergson: We invented them Bejiita :-)))

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): some say, time and space is the same

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes but we need DAC circuits to interpret what they tell us

[13:26] herman Bergson: We love to believe that computers emulate our brain

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause we are analog = infinite values

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we invented time too  i guess

[13:26] herman Bergson: oh dear......:-)

[13:26] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): first name of computers , like Eniac and similar were actually Electron brains

[13:26] herman Bergson: If we start a discussion about time.........

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but not even close to a brain, a pocket calculator is 100s of times more powerful then ENIAC

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I'm Sorry!

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..

[13:27] herman Bergson: it is fascinating, time and to think about it, if you have the time to do so :-)

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we invented the concept time at least

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but its not a thing or force

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just the fact that things dont happen simultaneously

[13:28] herman Bergson: Well, time is such a thing like principles of logic....

[13:28] herman Bergson: all human beings are aware of time

[13:28] Jane Fossett: its a property-- a dimension-- of the universe. It 'exists' in that frame

[13:29] herman Bergson: That doesn't tell us much, Jane..... a property?

[13:29] Jane Fossett: 'spacetime'

[13:29] herman Bergson: We have a past....time that is gone by

[13:30] herman Bergson: a future....time that still has to com...

[13:30] Jane Fossett: it defines the nature of things and their relationship

[13:30] herman Bergson: but do we have a NOW?

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is already passed

[13:30] herman Bergson: The moment I say 'NOW' it is already in the past.....

[13:30] herman Bergson: Right Gemma :-)

[13:30] Jane Fossett: we can see the Cosmic Background-- which is over 13 billion years ago

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): new space camera going up soon

[13:31] Jane Fossett: its as real for us now as them

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we can't live in the past onor the future, so it's always a 'now'

[13:31] herman Bergson: Oh that is one of my favorites...the Big Bang theory :-))

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will be een better

[13:31] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): than hubble

[13:31] herman Bergson: We live nowhere in time Beertje :-)

[13:32] herman Bergson: the moment you think NOW I LIVE, you're already in the past :-))

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no, still in the now

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i can't live in the past

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:32] herman Bergson: It is the time that passes...

[13:33] herman Bergson: Well, time is fun....

[13:33] herman Bergson: but more important....it is our brain that creates the awareness of duration

[13:33] Jane Fossett: dimensional fun

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): never should have mentioned it

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): esp if u can make a time machine (in sure CERN have something up their sleeves when the LHC roars to life again)

[13:33] herman Bergson smiles

[13:34] herman Bergson: remorse after the sin Gemma :-)

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however not even a particle accelerator can go over lightspeed wich is what is needed to go backwards in time

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still many now say a warp drive might be possible

[13:35] herman Bergson: What fascinates me in this matter is how our brain functions

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and we tend to over think stuff until head spins

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for future reference

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): https://www.jwst.nasa.gov/

[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa a new teelscope

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cool

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes!

[13:36] herman Bergson: So...unless you still have time, I could say...our time of today is up :-))

[13:36] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nice

[13:36] herman Bergson: Unwind your brain and relax :-)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:37] herman Bergson: Have a nice weekend....

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): brain is strained

[13:37] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again

[13:37] bergfrau Apfelbaum: I live in the now, now, now, now, now............... and it was interesting again

[13:37] Jane Fossett: xxx

[13:37] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman and class:-)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok bergie

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is already over

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we sure have made many different concepts

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): * PLUPP *

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): shall we in the future?

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): go and

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): * PLUPP *

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in a soon future

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): * PLUPP *

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): shall we in the future?

[13:38] herman Bergson: My goodness, Jane :-)

Thursday, September 16, 2021

940: A most beautiful Example...

 It's a bit of a strange sensation: walking through the supermarket, doing your shopping 

and at the same time thinking about Aristotle (384–322 BC) and his syllogisms. But that was yet the case, because it is the topic of today. 


In his work we see perhaps the best example of how patterns can be reduced to principles, which in turn can serve to generate new patterns. 


Aristotle realized that there are patterns in the way we describe and talk about the world. 


Many descriptive statements have a general form. You see something, for example a swan and you name a atribute of that swan .... it is white, in other words "The swan is white". 


By observations you might come to the conclusion: "All swans are white". Now that may not be true, but you could presuppose it. 


Then you see a bird and see that it is a swan. You close your eyes and you think: "All swans are white, That bird is a swan, so that bird is white". This is a form of reasoning. Aristotle called it a syllogism.


Then you open your eyes and see that the bird is indeed a swan, but black. But you can proof that your reasoning yet was valid.


Look at the diagram; one circle is de set of white birds, and inside that set is a not empty set of swans. A special case is that both circles coincide.


Here we see an interesting discovery. Argumentations can be VALID and thus lead to a VALID conclusion. In this case that the swan is white.


VALID means that you necessarily have to come to a given conclusion based on the arguments.


But the swan shows to be black. Aristotle thus showed that the validity of a reasoning and truth are independent of each other,


but IF the arguments are true AND the reasoning is valid, then it is impossible to deny the conclusion.


Aristotle formulated some basic principles for reasoning.  The first one is the Law of non-contradiction.


That means that a statement can not be true and false at the same time. When "the swan is black" is true, then "The swan is not black" can never be true.


In the United States of today, however, seems this Law no longer in use. The statement "Biden did win the election fairly" 


and "Biden did NOT win the election fairly" are held to be true at the same time.


The second principle is the Law of the excluded third. This means that a statement can only be TRUE or FALSE. There is no third option.


In the United States of today, however, seems this Law no longer in use. The statement "Can you confirm that Biden did win the election fairly",


certain politicians really invented a third option: their default answer is not yes or no. 

Their default answer is: Biden is the president.


There is tons more to tell about Aristotle, his syllogisms and logic, but here I presented you especially the achievement of homo sapiens


to discover patterns and underlying principles in an astonishing way. He understood that these Laws form the conditions to which all valid reasoning and correct evidence are subject.


Thank you for your attention again....


The Discussion

[13:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its not applying to politics because politics is a cementmixer of dirt throwing and lies to gain and stay in power

[[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): otherwise its all 100% working

[13:15] herman Bergson: Seems to be the case indeed Bejiita ^_^

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): actually that diagram is the very basics of object oriented programming

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): white birds is a class, swan is a subclass to that white birds class and inherits all variables and properties from in while adding its own lovcal ones like color.

[13:16] herman Bergson: well, this is not a computer class :-)

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or not color because that is defined in the main class white birds

[13:16] herman Bergson: You are right Bejiita...this is basic set theory in fact

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but this is a concept im very familiar with becase of that

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i applies in general to everything

[13:17] herman Bergson: it does

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well to all objects (thats why its called OOP in the first place)

[13:17] Rebecca (rebecca.rozen) is online.

[13:18] herman Bergson: I have an other juicy scandal for you

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:19] herman Bergson: Some wants to say something it seems :-)

[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he is writing a novel

[13:19] herman Bergson: The reasoning is thus

[13:19] Somedirtycat Saule: Had to read that a few times. US citizens seems to not understand that they don't elect the President. They elect Electors. Electors can then elect the man in the moon as President

[13:19] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.

[13:20] herman Bergson: Correct, Some

[13:20] herman Bergson: The reasoning

[13:20] herman Bergson: 1. All elections are rigged

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:21] Somedirtycat Saule: Yes

[13:21] herman Bergson: 2. Mr. X lost the elections

[13:21] herman Bergson: sorry...correction

[13:21] herman Bergson: 1. All elections you lose are rigged

[13:22] herman Bergson: 2. Mr.  X lost the election

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least to Mr T

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or X

[13:22] Somedirtycat Saule: MDR

[13:22] herman Bergson: Conclusion 3. The election was riggewd

[13:22] theo Velde is online.

[13:22] herman Bergson: But now....hear this....

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): MDR???

[13:23] herman Bergson: Tomorrow is a Recall ellection.... a Rep challanges the incumbent Dem....

[13:23] Somedirtycat Saule: Sorry, stupid gesture was kicked in. MDR is lol in Frensh

[13:23] herman Bergson: TOMORROW....

[13:24] herman Bergson: BUT....when you have a look at the website of the challenger, the Rep, you'll find the story that he lost the election due to voter frsaude....

[13:24] herman Bergson: that they have statistic evidence that there was voter fraude

[13:25] herman Bergson: and PLEASE donate to fight Californian voter fraude....

[13:25] herman Bergson: And this all although the elections not yet have taken place..!!!!!

[13:25] Laila Schuman: gerrymandering is a form of voter fraud

[13:25] herman Bergson: The reasoning I showed you was VALID

[13:26] herman Bergson: But all statements were untrue

[13:26] Somedirtycat Saule: My brain is melting

[13:26] herman Bergson: they even havent voted yet in California....that will happen tomorrow!!!

[13:27] herman Bergson: But the misinformation is already present on the Rep candidate's website

[13:27] Laila Schuman: he has been saying that for days

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok

[13:28] herman Bergson: yes Laila but the site says THAT he has lost and THAT  there WAS fraud....not that there will be

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said before, dirt throwing and backtalking

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the cement mixer rolls on!

[13:28] herman Bergson: Unbelievable

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): toward a bigger and bigger mess

[13:29] Laila Schuman: next weekend the Jan 6 people are returning to the scene of the hoop-la in Washington to say that the inprisoned Jan 6 actors are political prisoners and should be admired and released

[13:29] herman Bergson: The premise  "All elections I lose are rigged' has become a truth in all GOPs reasoning about elections

[13:30] herman Bergson: I know Laila...wonder what that will lead to

[13:30] Laila Schuman: unless they win

[13:31] Somedirtycat Saule: Hypernormality

[13:31] herman Bergson: yes Laila.....I won the election, conclusion The electio was not rigged

[13:31] Laila Schuman: if they win then it was an honest election

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh

[13:31] herman Bergson: People believe it Some......

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's the worst part

[13:32] herman Bergson: And that in the country that claims to be the defender of democracy

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:32] Laila Schuman: sad

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then a gigant baby came along

[13:33] herman Bergson: amazing ....

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): CHEATING! ALL WAS RIGGED BUAAAAAH BUAAAAAH!

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they know what democracy is when they lost it

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shakes head)

[13:33] Somedirtycat Saule: If people are presented some 'facts' why shouldn't they  believe it

[13:33] herman Bergson: That is the most amazing part of the story, Some

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because the facts are fake news and the other way around, at least thats what the gigant baby wanted all to believe

[13:34] herman Bergson: The facts don't seem to affect the opinion of certain people

[13:34] Laila Schuman: like the Q Anon guy..... who is wise because he is getting his info from his "self" come back from the future

[13:34] Somedirtycat Saule: It take time and effort to fact check

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now i dont know when biden is president but what happened in Afghanistan can create loads of chaos. Bidens reputation have dropped a lot

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dropped

[13:34] herman Bergson: Not even fact checking changes the opinions, Some.....people have tried

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and of course then the gigant babu sees his chance for a comeback

[13:35] herman Bergson: That will be forgotten soon Bejiita...what stays is that he got the soldiers out of that hellhole

[13:35] Somedirtycat Saule: I mean fact checking is a personal thing. If others fact check for you it is just another 'facts'

[13:36] Laila Schuman: the Afghan thin was inisiated by Trump...without details being worked out... probably on purpose

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): might be

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i see only the surface of everything, feel really sad for the people there however, human tragedy

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but was unavoidable i guess

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they had to pull out

[13:36] Laila Schuman: not the first one

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopeless fight

[13:37] Laila Schuman: Pompeo... however you spell it... is the one who did the interface with the Teleban

[13:38] Laila Schuman: left a lot of things unanswered

[13:38] herman Bergson: As you see, homo sapiens was able to discover the principles of logic and sound reasoning more than 2000  years ago.....

[13:38] Laila Schuman: unprepared for

[13:38] herman Bergson: and it seems that some people have all forgotten about it....:-))

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:39] herman Bergson: But, nevertheless it shows what homo sapiens (among other things) is capable of.....

[13:39] herman Bergson: Let's put our hope on that....

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:40] Laila Schuman: Trump did not allow a smooth transfer of information from his administration to the current one.... people were told not to let the Biden people know what was going on

[13:40] herman Bergson: Even in Europe we know about that misbehavior, Laila

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said before, most people are ok, and logical

[13:40] Somedirtycat Saule: Sadly i have to say that the age of democracy is a past thing

[13:40] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita...let's finish with that thought today

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Laila, that story i heard

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now for some more pluppy logic

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:41] Laila Schuman: no accident

[13:41] herman Bergson: I hope you are mistaken, Some, but there is some truth in your words...

[13:42] herman Bergson: So, thank you all again for your participation

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm whi does it do like this, suddenly closes program

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems to be some bug

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:42] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well nice again

[13:43] bergfrau Apfelbaum: interesting again! Thank you Herman and class

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you :))



939: Listen to the Music....

In the study of music we find as early as the sixth century BC. a search for the underlying principles of harmonics. 


Such chords are created by sounding two or more notes simultaneously or immediately after each other. 


The difference between the tones is called an interval. We call some intervals (tone distances) consonant because they sound pleasantly together in our ears, 


for example when the first and fifth notes of the scale sound together (C - G) and dissonant, because we think it sounds unpleasant, for example when the first and the second note of the scale sound together (C - D). 


Homo sapiens is such a curious creature. Perhaps the sound of the string on his bow was one of the first notes he discovered as a pattern. 


Interesting...a tighter bowstring...a higher pitch...a slacker bowstring...a lower pitch. Some of you know I have cello lessons. 


Last lesson my cello teacher came up with Pythagoras (c. 550 BC), not literally, but with something he had discovered and what fascinated him immensely: harmonics. 


If you place a finger in the middle of the string and you play that string, it will sound an octave higher, from G to G'. 


Pythagoras introduced a "law" for consonant intervals. According to him, they coincided with the ratios between the first four numbers 1:2:3:4. 


He related these harmonic ratios to the harmony in the cosmos. 


Acoustically, his theory did not quite match the observed patterns. Aristoxenus of Tarentum (c. 350 BC) argued that the intervals, and thus the consonants, 


should not be judged on the basis of simple numerical proportions, but on the basis of human hearing. 


While Pythagoras put principle above pattern, Aristoxenus argued that this had to be reversed. 


First, the consonant tone intervals had to be determined empirically by ear and only then could the mathematical principles be drawn up for these consonants. 


Here, as in the astronomy of Hipparchus (c. 150 BC), we see the view that the theory must correspond to the observed facts. 


Aristoxenus lived almost two centuries before Hipparchus and then in his time was already the explicit mindset


to achieve a correct match between principles, with which patterns can be predicted and the empirically observed patterns. 


Already in that era, Homo sapiens was ready for a fundamental scientific attitude.


There is some documentation from the period around 150 BC that also in India and China the phenomenon of consonance and dissonance got special theoretical attention.


While Pythagoras linked the harmonics of the consonants with the harmony of the cosmos, in China the pentatonic scale 


was for instance described in a Confucian book, named "Book of Rites", as the relation between music and reality.


The base note 'kung' represents the emperor, 'shang' the second note above kung represented the ministers,'chiao' the third above 'kung' is the people, and so on.


When the notes don't sound in disorder, there is harmony in the land.


Homo sapiens had discovered the relations between tones and thence the possibility to play acoustically with these relations. There's the music.....


Thank you for your attention again....


The Discussion

[13:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its indeed something built into us because u can immediatley hear someone play a false note

[13:17] oola Neruda: I was fortunate to visit a monastery in Germany... and the monks were singing... it was very moving

[13:17] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita

[13:17] herman Bergson: Gregorian music I guess

[13:18] oola Neruda: could have been... it was some years ago so ...???

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like when they sing karaoke at the local bar and i think it sounds worse then me cutting sheet metal at work with an angle grinder

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:18] herman Bergson: Monks only sing gregoria music :-)

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:18] oola Neruda: ahhh good point

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how about the middle east sounds, they sound different to me

[13:19] herman Bergson: They do indeed Beertje, but I think they don't sound dissonant....

[13:19] Lai Fallen (laila.streeter) is online.

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): depend on what it is, not too fond of those screeching minarets which is another angle frinder to  me but i like arabic music

[13:19] herman Bergson: stange, yes,

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like that we play at that parvana place i brought u to once or twice Herman

[13:19] herman Bergson: but that is because they use different scales from ours

[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my ears don't like it

[13:19] herman Bergson: that is another matter

[13:20] herman Bergson: maybe they use pentatonic scales

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some Arabic music and instruments we find screechy also i think

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): depends on

[13:21] herman Bergson: Sure...

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some instruments sound very sharp

[13:21] herman Bergson: Arab ears might dislike our violins and cellos perhaps :-)

[13:21] oola Neruda: drums and rattles in Africa... made more exciting by firelight

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no idea, its different

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa that i like

[13:22] herman Bergson: We need an arab guest to tell us what he thinks of Western music

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that a ritm, a pattern

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or a thing i love doing , play Japanese taiko drums

[13:22] herman Bergson: but unfortunately there isn't one here atm :-)

[13:23] herman Bergson: Drums sound the same in all cultures :-)

[13:23] oola Neruda: I disagree

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nope they don't

[13:23] herman Bergson: ok :-)

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): many different drums exist

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the base sound is same but

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they have different tones

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): like steldrums in Suriname

[13:24] herman Bergson: I mean the basic operation....a blow on a surface...

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): steel

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but also its how u play them i guess

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): steel drum = the typical carribean/jamaican sound

[13:25] oola Neruda: and if they use voice to accompany them...in which case they do or don't accommodate the singer

[13:26] herman Bergson: What amazes me is that homo sapiens already in times BC was studying music theory

[13:26] oola Neruda: my brother was a drummer

[13:26] herman Bergson: I find music a peculiar phenomenon.....also the behavior of homo sapiens to make music...

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:27] herman Bergson: it is in fact nothing more than producing well organized sound....

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:27] herman Bergson: and we like it :-))

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep!

[13:28] herman Bergson: MAybe biologically it is  a need of our central nervous system to be stimulated like that

[13:28] herman Bergson: Besides it produces joy in the maker of the music too :-)

[13:28] oola Neruda: think of a mother singing to a baby

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): vary mush possible, i always have something punchy going when i work

[13:28] oola Neruda: vs. a rock star

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): going all in with my machines!

[13:28] oola Neruda: different uses

[13:29] herman Bergson: Good point oola

[13:29] herman Bergson: Singing to the baby to get is to sleep

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): another example

[13:29] herman Bergson: very biological actually

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): many uses

[13:30] herman Bergson: animals don't do that

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that seems logical, the same thing as with those false notes

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): are u sure

[13:30] oola Neruda: singing in church to help the message "get in" to the congregation... to make it their own

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dogs and cats can take a like to music i know

[13:30] oola Neruda: chanty songs on sailing ships...

[13:31] herman Bergson: yes cows too, Bejiita

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:31] herman Bergson: They seem to produce more milk when listening to Bach :-)

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my parrot liked old jazz.....dancing when he heard it

[13:31] oola Neruda: smilesssssssss

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): jazz/lounge/soft house is my usual music when i program, gets me in right cozy mmoood

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and this classical music right now is perfect for philosophy

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): matches the current task

[13:33] herman Bergson: There must be something biological in music....creating it, listening to it and homosapiens found out this very early in his existence

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with dancing

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we all do it more or less

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): different styles

[13:34] herman Bergson: yes...also such a redundant activity in relation to survival :-)

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): music can be very annoiying when others play it and when you don't like it

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like I do street/hip hop a lot with my buddies, Africa have their dances i also find really awesome

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and so it goes

[13:34] herman Bergson: Iknow, Beertje ^_^

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha indeed beertje

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i like silence

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): "STOP PLAY RAMMSTEIN I CANT SLEEEP!"

[13:35] oola Neruda: a lot of the African dances have purpose attached to them

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but its fridayyyyy! I SCREAM BACK!

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): LOL

[13:35] herman Bergson: Me too likes the Sound of Silence :-))

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sometimes I think people are afraid of silence

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (fires up my angle grinder) WEEEEEIIIIIIIII!

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MUAHAHAH

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i love making noise!

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i hear it Bejiita

[13:37] Lukkie Sands: I have been silent all the time Beertje...without fear :-)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but sometimes i like to relax also

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i know sweety

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like now I'm actually in soft mode

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then I'm not too noisy

[13:38] herman Bergson: Oh dear....wonder how it sounds when you're in another mode Bejiita :-)

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u don't want to be near me at work

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but also its a metal workshop, its supposed to be noisy

[13:38] herman Bergson: Thought so :-))

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): boss needs to know I'm working!

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): aren't going to be nuts of all that noise Bejiita?

[13:39] herman Bergson: Anyway...it is interesting to think about the meaning and function of music in human existence.....

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well u need hearing protection of course or you'll go deaf

[13:39] herman Bergson: Might be a good idea to think about that this weekend :-)

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i mean YOUR noise

[13:40] oola Neruda: think of Mozart... for him... it was to entertain people.... so he had to figure that into whatever he did

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the thing is these Bluetooth earbuds are often better than those yellow foam pads and they go under a welding helmet also

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Mozart was deaf?

[13:40] oola Neruda: will they like it

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa eys Mozart was deaf that's true

[13:40] herman Bergson: Beethoven was, Beertje...the older he got

[13:40] oola Neruda: yes

[13:41] oola Neruda: what Herman said

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): fascinating he still could make so much great music

[13:41] herman Bergson: Mozart wasn't deaf

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or just lowered hearing maybe, just heard something before he was totally deaf

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah wrong man:)

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or who was that

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mix them together

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i just like all stuff they have made don't think so much of the rest

[13:42] herman Bergson: Then, let me thank you again for your participation, wish you happy listening this weekend :-)

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:43] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting again and a VERY important subject regarding patterns!