Wednesday, December 12, 2018

749: What to do with Metaphysics....?

In the previous lecture I said: The thesis then was in those 1920s: the pursuit of objectivity and the need to give meaning to life are irreconcilable,
or said in a more philosophical way: what we know or can know about life and the meaning of life, is this based on rationality, read 'science', or is it based on what we know by our gut?
This "or is it based on what we know by our gut?" you also could rephrase by "can we know it in a metaphysical sense?"
It is not easy to say what metaphysics is. Ancient and Medieval philosophers might have said that metaphysics was to be defined 
by its subject-matter: metaphysics was the “science” that studied “being as such” or “the first causes of things” or “things that do not change”. 
Modern debates on metaphysics look different, but in those days around 1925 the question of the essence of being, the meaning of being were hot issues in philosophy.
I must confess, that I always have disliked German philosophy since Hegel (1771 - 1831) and my greatest fear was the subsequent school of phenomenology.
And the most scaring philosopher was Martin Heidegger (1889 -1976) with his book "Sein und Zeit"(1927) - Being and Time.
-QUOTE- Do we in our time have an answer to the question of what we really mean by the word 'being'? 
Not at all. So it is fitting that we should raise anew the question of the meaning of Being. 
But are we nowadays even perplexed at our inability to understand the expression 'Being'? Not at all. 
So first of all we must reawaken an understanding for the meaning of this question. Our aim in the following treatise is to work out the question of the meaning of Being and to do so concretely. -END QUOTE-
That is what you read in the author's preface of "Being and Time". Some philosophers consider all this metaphysical theorizing as a kind of secular theology.
In 1928 the Wiener Kreis (Vienna Circle) was founded. 
Under this name the most influential philosophical movement of the 20th century became known, which, incidentally, was diametrically opposed to Heidegger. 
The initiator of the group was Moritz Schlick (1882-1936). He was born in Berlin and had, like most other members, studied sciences, in his case physics with Max Planck from 1900 to 1904. 
He had brought together about twenty men, including Otto Neurath from Vienna, a remarkably versatile mathematician, 
Rudolf Carnap, a mathematician who studied at Gottlob Frege in Jena, Kurt Gödel, mathematician; 
and sometimes Karl Popper, who would have great influence as a philosopher after the Second World War, was present. 
From 1929 - 1931 the term logical positivism made its appearance and as such the movement became known. 
The logical positivists are vehemently opposed to metaphysics. They wanted to dismiss every idea 
that 'there might be something beyond the world of the natural sciences and the mind, the world that is revealed to us through the senses.' 
Any claim that was not empirically testable, or was contrary to logic or mathematics, was meaningless and empty. 
In this way complete areas such as theology, aesthetics and politics were declared out of order. 
Of course there is more to say about this. The logical positivists also criticized "what we might call the German past," according to the British philosopher A.]. Ayer. 
With that past he meant the romantic and rather woolly thinking and metaphysics of Hegel, Nietzsche and Husserl. 
Dozens of  German philosophers had little interest in the empirical sciences and saw it as their duty to stand up 
for religion, morality, free will, the people and the organic nation state. Likewise Heidegger, who did not hide his sympathy for the Nazis.   
Let's focus our attention next time on the Vienna Circle movement.
Thank you for your attention again...:-))


The Discussion

[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:16] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:16] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:16] herman Bergson: In the Stanford Encyclopedia you find a nice difficult article on Metaphysics
[13:17] herman Bergson: In Heidegger's time it was focused on existence and understanding the meaning fo being....
[13:17] CB Axel: It seems to me that philosophy without metaphysics is just science.
[13:17] herman Bergson: No....not really CB.....
[13:18] herman Bergson: But philosophy becomes a second level activity...
[13:18] herman Bergson: science contructs a picture of reality....
[13:18] herman Bergson: and philosophy analyses the concepts, science uses
[13:18] herman Bergson: And example....
[13:19] herman Bergson: what nowadays is called a metaphysical problem....
[13:19] herman Bergson: the Mental and the Physical
[13:19] herman Bergson: Is the mental pure physical?
[13:19] herman Bergson: If not what is it then?
[13:20] herman Bergson: Is cartesian dualism meaningful
[13:20] herman Bergson: We discussed these issues in several projects here
[13:20] herman Bergson: The pictures are still on the wall
[13:21] herman Bergson: SO...all these neuroscientist describe the reality of the brain....
[13:21] herman Bergson: but is this the correct way, asks the philosopher
[13:22] herman Bergson: Brain activity can be scanned and the person can say Ï experience an emotion of joy"
[13:22] herman Bergson: Then comes the metaphysical question.....
[13:22] herman Bergson: In what way does this emotion exist"
[13:22] herman Bergson: is it just another word for the scan result?
[13:23] herman Bergson: That requires philosophical analyses
[13:24] herman Bergson: This analyses might have a scientific character, because it demands rigorous logic
[13:24] CB Axel: Joy is probably a cocktail of neurochemicals.
[13:24] herman Bergson: YEs...some will say that
[13:25] Tessy (tess.messmer): we are taught emotions?
[13:25] herman Bergson: I would :-))
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Tess we are taught how to interact with the world
[13:25] herman Bergson: But some emotions are not taught but innate
[13:26] herman Bergson: all brains produce them in animals and human animals
[13:26] Tessy (tess.messmer): instinct?
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes....take for instance basic fear
[13:28] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.
[13:28] herman Bergson: But the more abstract philosophical question do all emotional terms relate to our biochemistry
[13:29] herman Bergson: We know only little about this relation
[13:29] Tessy (tess.messmer): if sad a lot you can physically get unhealthy
[13:29] herman Bergson: we see a brain scan and there is fear....
[13:30] herman Bergson: yes...a correlation between sadness and a physical condition
[13:30] herman Bergson: so far we only seem to see correlations
[13:32] herman Bergson: That is why there are so many transcendental theories to explain what the meaning of being is....
[13:32] herman Bergson: religions do it, political believes do it
[13:32] CB Axel: Do we? I thought stress caused a release of cortisol which affects our physical health.
[13:33] herman Bergson: I prefer dopamine :-))
[13:34] herman Bergson: And endorfines
[13:34] CB Axel: The release of cortisol and therefore decline in health is more than a correlation, I thought.
[13:34] herman Bergson: I think  you will experience the effects of all these hormones  the coming weeks :-)
[13:35] herman Bergson: I guess that the release  of certain substances in your body can have very negative effects
[13:35] Tessy (tess.messmer): so there is theories for the meaning of life?
[13:36] herman Bergson: Plenty, Tess
[13:36] Tessy (tess.messmer): humm. i got lots to learn
[13:36] herman Bergson: But the eternal debate is about the question...which one is the most plausible one
[13:37] Tessy (tess.messmer): i am, still searching for one
[13:37] Tessy (tess.messmer): lol true if there is more than one
[13:37] herman Bergson: And the Wiener Kreis philosophers claimed that is was the scientific theory
[13:37] herman Bergson: You can begin with Darwin for instance
[13:38] herman Bergson: But I think that everyone rather like to focus on presents and XMas trees.....
[13:39] herman Bergson: So I suggest  that we gonna take a long nice Christmas break :-))
[13:39] Tessy (tess.messmer): :)
[13:40] herman Bergson: Resuming class somewhere after New Year in 2019
[13:40] Tessy (tess.messmer): maybe i can get a book over the holidays of Darwin?
[13:40] herman Bergson: There is plenty on the Internet Tess
[13:40] Tessy (tess.messmer): ok
[13:41] herman Bergson: Well what do you think of my idea? :-))
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i will miss class
[13:41] CB Axel: I'm ok with that.
[13:42] herman Bergson: Ok :-))
[13:42] Tessy (tess.messmer): sounds good
[13:42] CB Axel:  °͜°
[13:42] CB Axel: I'll miss it, too, but a nice holiday will remind me of how much I miss it.
[13:42] CB Axel:  °͜°
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone:
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :) CB
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*yaaaaaaaay*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
[13:42] herman Bergson: Very good CB :-)
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): omg Ciska
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: ;)
[13:43] herman Bergson: Then I wish you all the most wonderful time of the year :-)
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a nice holiday Herman
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: have a great holiday herman
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: and everyone
[13:43] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....ding dong :-)
[13:43] Tessy (tess.messmer): ty and you have a great holiday to !
[13:43] CB Axel: Have a nice holiday, everyone.
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: enjoy
[13:43] Tessy (tess.messmer): everyone have a good holiday see ya when we come back !
[13:44] CB Axel: See you in the new year, everyone. Bye.

Sunday, December 2, 2018

748: The Roaring Twenties.....

Our main question still is, on whose shoulders are we standing and what of the 20th century shaped our time of today?
It is 1925. Maybe the most important two events of this first quarter of the 20th century were the development of science and World War One.
Just imagine.  In the first decennium there had been more discoveries in science than in the precious three centuries.
Not only in the field of physics, but also in psychology, which had taken a completely new turn with Freud's theory of psycho-analysis.
The next experience of Europe is a total devastation of mankind in the First World War. Innumerable soldiers were killed and sacrificed in meaningless battles over trenches.
It is obvious that the question of the meaning of life had become an important one among artists, writers and philosophers.
But from the outside those times were called the "Roaring Twenties". It refers to the decade of the 1920s in Western society and Western culture. 
It was a period of economic prosperity with a distinctive cultural edge in the United States and Western Europe, 
particularly in major cities such as Berlin, Vienna, Paris, London, Los Angeles, Chicago, New York City.
In France, the decade was known as the "années folles" ('crazy years'), emphasizing the era's social, artistic and cultural dynamism. 
This period saw the large-scale development and use of automobiles, telephones, motion pictures, radio, and electrical appliances. 
Aviation became a business. Nations saw rapid industrial and economic growth, accelerated consumer demand, and significant changes in lifestyle and culture.
But underneath this vibrant life a battle, a struggle was going on. One, which would have serious consequences for the times to come.
The struggle focused on the question of the meaning of life.  The thesis then was: the pursuit of objectivity and the need to give meaning to life are irreconcilable,
or said in a more philosophical way: what we know or can know about life and the meaning of life, is this based on rationality, read 'science', or is it based on what we know by our gut?
We'll get back to it later in more detail, but a lot of cultural phenomena in art and literature were actually discussing 
the value of rationally based knowledge versus  irrationally based knowledge. And whatever you decide, it will have major social impact.
And this controversy still exists in the 21st century, where you hear a leader of government say about  climate change, and I quote:
One of the problems that a lot of people like myself, we have very high levels of intelligence but we are not necessarily such believers... 
as to whether or not it 's man-made and whether or not the effects, that you are talking about are there, I don't see it. -END QUOTE-
And after that you get the epistemological underpinning, and I quote again:
I am doing deals and I am not accommodated by the Fed...They're making a mistake because I have a gut and my gut tells me more sometimes than anybody else's brain can ever tell me. -END QUOTE -
The struggle between and consequences of rationality versus was then and it is today.
Thank you for your attention again... :-)

The Discussion

[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:16] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:16] herman Bergson: On what do you base your decisions....on rational thinking or on irrational thoughts
[13:16] CB Axel: IMO, there is a lot to be said for gut instinct, but not when it contradicts facts.
[13:16] elisabeth3210: sometimes we choose not to know in situations where we could know, should know, but we don't because unconscious biases obscure our view.. its called willful blindness :p
[13:17] herman Bergson: cognitive dissonance...Elisabeth....
[13:17] CB Axel: You have to be able change your mind regarding your instinct when there is proof that what you believed is wrong.
[13:17] elisabeth3210: that too :)
[13:17] Tessy (tess.messmer): I base mine on either , depending on what the subject is
[13:17] herman Bergson: But CB....
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's hard for some people to edmit that they are wrong
[13:18] herman Bergson: how much is to say for gut instinct
[13:18] elisabeth3210: right, but attention is an intentional unapologitic discriminator, our brain often rejects info which broadens our outlook or current view point
[13:19] CB Axel: I didn't say ignoring your gut was easy. LOL
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:19] herman Bergson: ok...but now this.....
[13:19] herman Bergson: pure philosophically...
[13:19] herman Bergson: science deals with facts...
[13:19] herman Bergson: you can debate what is a fact
[13:20] herman Bergson: but science has a method....
[13:20] herman Bergson: by using facts it can predict other facts and you can test that....and it works...
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:20] elisabeth3210: nods
[13:20] herman Bergson: otherwise we wouldnt have medicines for instance
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true and logical
[13:21] herman Bergson: this is all product of our brain...we cal it knowledge....
[13:21] herman Bergson: but now...
[13:21] herman Bergson whispers: this other knowledge....originating from a gut...whatever that is...sometime I get the impression it is the gutter ;-)
[13:22] herman Bergson: but what knowledge producing system or method is this gut feeling?
[13:22] elisabeth3210: if its an instinct (gut feeling, intuition, ...) its not knowledge
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha well if its from the gutter it is indeed really noo good stuff
[13:22] elisabeth3210: or is it?
[13:23] herman Bergson: isnt knowledge Elisabeth...
[13:23] herman Bergson: you cant test it, falcify it or whatever
[13:23] herman Bergson: but yet we seem to believe in it....
[13:24] elisabeth3210: nods
[13:24] herman Bergson: when your gut tells you that there is no climate change....people seems to believe you  (when you are in a certain position of authority) it seems
[13:24] CB Axel: When put in an intense situation where things are changing rapidly such as a battle, gut instinct helps, but once the situation changes one has to take a step back and look at what happened and assess what your gut had told you.
[13:24] elisabeth3210: specially when it comes to building up narratives about the purpose of our life, our goals, what we want to do, true
[13:24] herman Bergson: There you have a point, CB....
[13:25] CB Axel: Climate change is happening, but we have time to look at the science and make decisions based on that.
[13:25] herman Bergson: But that resulting behavior is not based on knowledge or conclusions....
[13:25] herman Bergson: ti is produced by the basic emotions we discussed in previous projects....fear, hate , disgust , anger....
[13:26] herman Bergson: originating from the 'reptilian brain'
[13:26] herman Bergson: not from the prefrontal cortex
[13:26] herman Bergson: we NEED these reflexes...absolutely...
[13:26] CB Axel: I'm just saying that saying gut instinct is from the gutter is a bit harsh.
[13:27] herman Bergson: certainly in situations of danger
[13:27] herman Bergson: I am sorry...was just a pun...
[13:27] Tessy (tess.messmer): animals rely on there instincts to hunt ? not science
[13:27] herman Bergson: yes
[13:27] CB Axel: When I worked as a paramedic, I often had to go with my gut in some situations. Although, even then my gut was informed by my training.
[13:28] herman Bergson: Absolutely true, acted on what you might call trained instinct, I guess
[13:28] CB Axel: Yes, animals react to things on instinct, but I would hope our great, big hominid brains can do more than that.
[13:28] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.
[13:29] herman Bergson: But holding social, economical and political views based on your gut, that is worrisome in my opinion
[13:29] CB Axel: And even animals learn where the best food is found and what techniques of obtaining that food are.
[13:29] herman Bergson: yes
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:30] CB Axel: I agree, Herman. We need to use these great, big hominid brains once in a while. :)
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its good in some cases but not in others
[13:30] herman Bergson: I agree, CB :-)
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the gut feel
[13:30] herman Bergson: Explain Bejiita
[13:30] herman Bergson: please
[13:31] herman Bergson: How do you determine for instance in which ratio or by gut?
[13:32] herman Bergson: what criterai to use?
[13:32] CB Axel: Time.
[13:32] herman Bergson: the spilt second....:-)
[13:32] Tessy (tess.messmer): yes
[13:33] herman Bergson: oh yes...saved lives..I am sure
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well things based o science facts should not be used with gut feel, as for ex trump probaby use his gut feel instead of the actual science facts that 100% prooves that carbon dioxide is causing climate changes
[13:33] CB Axel: Do you have time to look at the facts or will you get eaten by a lion if you wait too long?
[13:33] herman Bergson: But I think that is more acting on (survival) reflexes than on....whatever else...gut.....ratio
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): gut feel and science are 2 different things and should be used in the right applications
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then i have never actually thought of comparing these 2 thigs
[13:34] elisabeth3210: Yual Noah Harari covers this issue in his book 21 lessons for the 21st century, and warns us on how dangerous this instinct mechanism is these days, since we are exposed to an enormous amount of manipulation, the data we process are not those of the natural world, but those the media feed us through the internet, networks, algorithms
[13:34] elisabeth3210: Yuval*
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:35] CB Axel: Interesting, elisabeth.
[13:35] Tessy (tess.messmer): we have lost that GUT feel
[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): separate true facts from noncense
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there gut fel is important
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Tessy..because we have become rational animals....
[13:35] elisabeth3210: if you are at the African savanna facing a tiger and an escape route, its fine to let your gut inform you on what to do.. but we live in an informational cocoon
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that naaaa this cant be right
[13:35] CB Axel: I don't think we've lost it, Tessy. I just think we shouldn't rely on it.
[13:35] CB Axel: Right, Herman.
[13:35] CB Axel: No tigers in Africa.
[13:35] elisabeth3210: right lol
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:36] elisabeth3210: grins
[13:36] herman Bergson: We have created a CULTURE....
[13:36] CB Axel: If I was faced with a tiger on the African savanna, I'd get eaten because I'd be standing there scratching my head wondering how the hell did a tiger get here?
[13:36] herman Bergson: No other animal on this planet ha a culture.....writes litereature, created painting, has a language
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol CB
[13:37] herman Bergson: No would get eaten because you look so delicious
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): loool
[13:37] CB Axel blushes
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))
[13:37] herman Bergson grins
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (tries to eat CB)
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahah
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): noo i wont
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:38] CB Axel: But you see, that would be a situation where gut instinct would serve me better than knowledge. LOL
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (continues munching chocolate)
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:39] CB Axel: Stick with the chocolate, Bejiita. I'm sure it tastes much better than I.
[13:39] herman Bergson: oops almost made a wrong joke
[13:39] herman Bergson: you see.....
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha
[13:40] herman Bergson: this controvery between rationality and irrationality is really some issue in those days the 20s....but still is today
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems so for sure
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well it is as it is
[13:41] herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll show you more of what was happing in those days and what we inherited....
[13:41] herman Bergson: Unless you still have a burning question......?
[13:41] herman Bergson: I'd love to see you next Tuesday again ..happy an healthy...:-)
[13:42] CB Axel: That should be interesting. :)
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): my gut says its party somewhere so ill check for that
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:42] CB Axel: LOL
[13:42] herman Bergson: Ok...
[13:42] elisabeth3210: I´m with the stoics in this one, *virtue is in the rational, it depends on our ability to reason* :)
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have fun Bejiita
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause there use to be aftert this
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): after
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:42] herman Bergson: Class my gut feeling right now :-))
[13:42] CB Axel: My gut says I need to go buy groceries because my gut is empty right now. :)
[13:42] elisabeth3210: haha
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu next time
[13:42] elisabeth3210: see u ^^
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now
[13:43] CB Axel: See you Tuesday. Bye.
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:43] Tessy (tess.messmer): thank you Herman
[13:43] herman Bergson: Thank you all again :-))
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Goodnight :))
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice as usual
[13:43] Tessy (tess.messmer): See you all next Tuesday
[13:43] elisabeth3210: I´d tip if I could, im just poor as a rat lol. ty for the lecture xx

747: Ever heard of Erich Fromm....???

-QUOTE- This book   [The Sane Society (1956)]   is a continuation of "The Fear of Freedom"(1941) , written over fifteen years ago. 
In "The Fear of Freedom" I tried to show that the totalitarian movements appealed to a deep-seated craving 
to escape from the freedom man had achieved in the modern world; that modern man, free from medieval ties, 
was not free to build a meaningful life based on reason and love, hence sought new security in submission to a leader, race or state. 
In "The Sane Society" I try to show that life in twentieth-century Democracy constitutes in many ways another escape from freedom, 
and the analysis of this particular escape, centered around the concept of alienation, constitutes a good part of this book. -END QUOTE-
The man who is talking here is Erich Fromm (1900 - 1980), a German-born American social psychologist, psychoanalyst, sociologist, humanistic philosopher, and democratic socialist. 
Fromm, member of the Frankfurter School,  blended the ideas of both Freud and Marx, 
creating a compromise between the Freudian emphasis on the unconscious, biological drives, repression, etc., the belief that the character is determined by biology, 
and Marx’s belief that people are a product of their society, particularly the economic systems therein. 
Fromm’s theory was no mere derivative, however. He added the revolutionary concept of freedom to these deterministic systems, 
granting people the ability to transcend the various determinisms described by Freud and Marx. To Fromm, freedom was central to human nature.
Fromm distinguishes between 'freedom from', negative freedom, and 'freedom to', positive freedom. 
The former refers to emancipation from restrictions such as social conventions placed on individuals by other people or institutions. 
This is the kind of freedom typified by the existentialism of Sartre, and has often been fought for historically 
but, according to Fromm, on its own it can be a destructive force unless accompanied by a creative element - 'freedom to' - 
the use of freedom to employ the total integrated personality in creative acts. 
This, he argues, necessarily implies a true connectedness with others that goes beyond the superficial bonds of conventional social intercourse.
Fromm combined humanism, psycho-analysis and socialism to create a view of the "sane" society. 
His ideas have been popular for many years. His book "The Sane Society" got a second edition in 1991 and saw several reprints in the period 2005 to 2008.
There is still a lot to find on the Internet of Fromm, even complete PDFs of his most famous books, 
but like with Marcuse, Fromm's inspirational view on man seems to have  drowned in the marshes of current neo-liberalism.
As a final remark, the central theme in Fromm's account of the rise of capitalism is that it is a social system which puts man in second place. 
Under it, he is alienated from his nature and his true needs. As Marx put it," "It is not individuals who are set free by free competition; 
it is, rather, capital which is set free." The market comes to dominate man.      
Thank you for your attention again....:-)

The Discussion

[13:24] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Wonders what Fromm would think today
[13:24] herman Bergson: You can imagine that Fromm was very popular among the young people in the 60s and 70s
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): knowing more about heredity etc
[13:25] herman Bergson: I think he would be very sad, Gemma
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i agree with him for sure
[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: Gemma - Fromm had foreseen a lot of whats happening right now
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes he did
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i remember reading a couple of his books
[[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: I have some of his original tapes he made for german radio in the last century
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed it is exactly like this but i don't get WHY would you want to flee freedon and think u get it better, don't make sense
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes..his escape from freedom.....our inclination to submit ourselves to authoritarian leaders
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause you wont
[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: its amazing how he shows the correlations.
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): history shows this including other awful leaders like for ex Erdogan
[13:26] CB Axel: Bejiita, I think it's because people are lazy and don't want to think for themselves.
[13:26] herman Bergson: Freedom makes lonely Bejiita....
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but do u want terror in exang for this?
[13:26] herman Bergson: You are on your own.....
[13:26] herman Bergson: have to make active links with fellowmen
[13:27] CB Axel: It's easier to stare stupidly at a TV show and let others make decisions for you.
[13:27] herman Bergson: it is his Freedom TO......
[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: well its certainly whats happening right now hermann
[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: and a lot of the dynamics between the sexes shows that...
[13:27] herman Bergson: It already started in the 70s....
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if the leader was a good one i could get it but all these, Trump Erdogan ect are total swines
[13:28] herman Bergson: and when the communist countries collapsed ...that was the extra push
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): greedy power hungry bastards they are anting everything for themselves, i would not want a leader like that
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wanting
[13:29] herman Bergson: A concept like solidarity has almost disappeared....
[13:29] herman Bergson: sharing....
[13:29] herman Bergson: mutual support
[13:30] herman Bergson: all these believes of the 60s and 70s
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a sad development
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: has it really? or is it just on the one hand institutionalized and on the other privatized?
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting ciska
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hmmm
[13:30] herman Bergson: hmmmm....maybe to some extend indeed Ciska
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): too
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: it has to do with emancipation
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: women used to be the glue of societies
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: now they work
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: they used to provide sharing
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: support
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: the classic housewife was engaged in the neighborhood
[13:31] herman Bergson: Where will it all lead to?
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I think we still do try to do both
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: and he neighborhood built the community
[13:31] CB Axel: True, but I think if you look at women in the work place, especially in the US Congress, it's the women who cooperate and work together.
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: we still do that Gemma yes
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: but we privatize more
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: and it leads to more man having to do what herman stated before
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: [13:26] herman Bergson: have to make active links with fellowmen
[13:33] herman Bergson: ahh yes....
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: they have to share
[13:33] CB Axel: Networking?
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: but men  have mor difficulties with sharing and networking
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: whereas we still have some sort of a basic plan
[13:33] CB Axel: Women can do that, too, but men have kept women out of their networks.
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some do
[13:33] herman Bergson: sharing solidarity regarding all kinds of social issues
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: yes
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmmm
[13:33] herman Bergson: These days it all looks black or white.....
[13:34] herman Bergson: the middle is disappearing
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems so
[13:34] herman Bergson: But I have no explanation for this process
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: I do ;)
[13:35] herman Bergson: Tell us Ciska!
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe Ciska
[13:35] CB Axel: The process that removed the middle or a process for bringing it back?
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: its really the power dynamics...  which do "break down" on all ends with people not yet fit for it
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i still blame my hated ayn rand for a lot
[13:35] herman Bergson: Can we have it both CB ? :-)
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: so people want those back and vote for trump
[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: (who threw a nice tantrum at general motors today)
[13:36] CB Axel nods
[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: yes Gemma - she expressed a lot of that
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who has no clue who rand is but is her most devoted disciple ever!!!
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems so for sure
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): egoism personified
[13:37] herman Bergson: We notice what is happening btu can't influence it, it seems
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: well
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: it has to do with evaluation
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I just hope i see glimmers of change in attitude that occur in little things happening
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i soo want to use my new ubunto server machine to hack trumps systems and CRASH CRASH CRASH and put all right again
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: evaluating social processes on a broader range seems something which is difficult for a significant part of society.
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but of course i cant
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and perhaps making a difference
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): want to make something go in right direction
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully people will soon realize
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): make special golf clubs bejita
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe well that maybee
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): anti trump clubs
[13:39] herman Bergson: Maybe something starts changing after January 1
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): why?
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:39] herman Bergson: When the dems have the congres
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): why Jan 1
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well
[13:40] CB Axel: Only half of the Congress.
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they will be asking a lot of questions
[13:40] CB Axel: Only the house
[13:40] herman Bergson: The already are busy preparing all kindsof investigations
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): taht may help in the 2020 elections
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Mr trump is running now
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is evident
[13:41] herman Bergson: He maybe is already scared
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well it was to me long before he even got into the white house he was not suited at all for that
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh he is definitely scared
[13:41] CB Axel: I think that's why he's become interested in federal prison reform. He's afraid he'll go to jail.
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): more each day
[13:41] Now playing: BACH - Phantasm - The Art of Fugue - incomplete Contrapuntus
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:41] CB Axel: And I afraid he won't.
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well they should have locked him into an asylum from start and threw the key away id say
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): before he got into the white house
[13:42] herman Bergson: We'll see what will happen...
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): this is what the world thinks of our president
[13:42] CB Axel: I felt that way back in the '70's, Bejiita. You know. Before it was cool.
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: I think they all work hard around him to keep him afloat right now... but he looks more and more like someone at the verge of a psychological break down
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Sanders would have been  a great choise instead, he seems to have something in the head at least
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he has looked like that for years tho
[13:43] herman Bergson: At least he might  have read Fromm :-)
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he does not read
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he never did
[13:43] herman Bergson: Sanders?
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: sanders...
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Benie
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: I bet sanders did yes
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Bernie who ran for president
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes he sure did
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes that  man...
[13:44] CB Axel: Bernie is the right age to have read Fromm.
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes
[[13:44] Tessy (tess.messmer): I voted for Trump and as of right now my vote has not changed. time will tell how this will all play out but I like the way things are going
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he seemed much better president candidate then trump for sure and what i have picked up is all ok
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): do you really think so tessy?
[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes Tessy, a lot of people agree with you
[13:45] CB Axel: Well, Tessy, you're the only one here who thinks things are going well.
[13:45] Tessy (tess.messmer): yes i do gemma
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the world is going toward more egoism, racism hate and greed
[13:45] Tessy (tess.messmer): its ok as long as ya all don't hate on me to much :)
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats not a good thing
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks not
[13:46] herman Bergson: There is no problem in disagreeing with eachother :-)
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wonders what wil happen to Detroit area economy with thousands being laid off
[13:46] Tessy (tess.messmer): i agree
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): already not good
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tariffs are not helping i am afraid
[13:47] Tessy (tess.messmer): also live by Detroit . things will be just fine when Michigan ever gets a better senator
[13:47] herman Bergson: Doesn't seem so
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will see
[13:47] Tessy (tess.messmer): detroit has been such a wasteland for so many years  trump didnt make that mess
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no he did not
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for sure
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that was before yes
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 2008 when everything came crashing down
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he is making the rest of the world a mess Tessy
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:48] CB Axel: And he's not helping Detroit.
[13:48] Tessy (tess.messmer): some believe that but i do not
[13:48] herman Bergson: Don't know Beertje....
[13:49] herman Bergson: I think he is isolating the US more and more
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true Herman
[13:49] herman Bergson: In stead of international solidarity he left a number of international treaties
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: he might be the reason for russia and china teamng up more... we will see
[13:50] CONNIE Eichel is online.
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that will be interesting for sure
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): time will tell
[13:50] herman Bergson: Well...then I would suggest to take that time now :-))
[13:50] Tessy (tess.messmer): yes he did leave them. but i am in understanding its in amarecias best intrest for him to do that
[13:51] herman Bergson: Time will tell Tessy
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: you will see yes
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but how can it when other countire will take our place with a different focus
[13:51] Tessy (tess.messmer): i might yes . but either way i think we will all be ok
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: some of the bigger companies do think about leaving...
[13:51] CB Axel: It's in America's best interest to go it alone with no allies? I doubt that.
[13:51] herman Bergson: SO may I thank you all again for saving the world again....:-)
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):China changes the attitude of the far east to their benefit because we are not there
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we will never do it
[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: thanks herman - thanx all
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think trump only sees to his own ego and wallet, not to USA, he is just using US to gain more money and ego himself
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a lure
[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....ˆ_ˆ
[13:52] Tessy (tess.messmer): and the other choice was Clinton or Bernie? JOKES
[13:52] Tessy (tess.messmer): thanks all. . class was fun :)
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): herman
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well Bernie i liked
[13:52] Tessy (tess.messmer): thank you herman
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see you thurday
[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes we can have our doubts about them too Tessy :-)
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we hope
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well time will tell, need to run for another event
[13:53] Tessy (tess.messmer): :)
[13:53] CB Axel: See you all, Thursday.
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:53] Tessy (tess.messmer): had to pick someone
[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman & Class
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i can agree the other choice was not a good one either
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): pest or colera
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu next time
[13:53] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: bye everyone
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for noe
[13:53] Tessy (tess.messmer): yes :) bye everyone
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu