Sunday, December 2, 2018

747: Ever heard of Erich Fromm....???

-QUOTE- This book   [The Sane Society (1956)]   is a continuation of "The Fear of Freedom"(1941) , written over fifteen years ago. 
In "The Fear of Freedom" I tried to show that the totalitarian movements appealed to a deep-seated craving 
to escape from the freedom man had achieved in the modern world; that modern man, free from medieval ties, 
was not free to build a meaningful life based on reason and love, hence sought new security in submission to a leader, race or state. 
In "The Sane Society" I try to show that life in twentieth-century Democracy constitutes in many ways another escape from freedom, 
and the analysis of this particular escape, centered around the concept of alienation, constitutes a good part of this book. -END QUOTE-
The man who is talking here is Erich Fromm (1900 - 1980), a German-born American social psychologist, psychoanalyst, sociologist, humanistic philosopher, and democratic socialist. 
Fromm, member of the Frankfurter School,  blended the ideas of both Freud and Marx, 
creating a compromise between the Freudian emphasis on the unconscious, biological drives, repression, etc., the belief that the character is determined by biology, 
and Marx’s belief that people are a product of their society, particularly the economic systems therein. 
Fromm’s theory was no mere derivative, however. He added the revolutionary concept of freedom to these deterministic systems, 
granting people the ability to transcend the various determinisms described by Freud and Marx. To Fromm, freedom was central to human nature.
Fromm distinguishes between 'freedom from', negative freedom, and 'freedom to', positive freedom. 
The former refers to emancipation from restrictions such as social conventions placed on individuals by other people or institutions. 
This is the kind of freedom typified by the existentialism of Sartre, and has often been fought for historically 
but, according to Fromm, on its own it can be a destructive force unless accompanied by a creative element - 'freedom to' - 
the use of freedom to employ the total integrated personality in creative acts. 
This, he argues, necessarily implies a true connectedness with others that goes beyond the superficial bonds of conventional social intercourse.
Fromm combined humanism, psycho-analysis and socialism to create a view of the "sane" society. 
His ideas have been popular for many years. His book "The Sane Society" got a second edition in 1991 and saw several reprints in the period 2005 to 2008.
There is still a lot to find on the Internet of Fromm, even complete PDFs of his most famous books, 
but like with Marcuse, Fromm's inspirational view on man seems to have  drowned in the marshes of current neo-liberalism.
As a final remark, the central theme in Fromm's account of the rise of capitalism is that it is a social system which puts man in second place. 
Under it, he is alienated from his nature and his true needs. As Marx put it," "It is not individuals who are set free by free competition; 
it is, rather, capital which is set free." The market comes to dominate man.      
Thank you for your attention again....:-)

The Discussion

[13:24] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Wonders what Fromm would think today
[13:24] herman Bergson: You can imagine that Fromm was very popular among the young people in the 60s and 70s
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): knowing more about heredity etc
[13:25] herman Bergson: I think he would be very sad, Gemma
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i agree with him for sure
[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: Gemma - Fromm had foreseen a lot of whats happening right now
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes he did
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i remember reading a couple of his books
[[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: I have some of his original tapes he made for german radio in the last century
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed it is exactly like this but i don't get WHY would you want to flee freedon and think u get it better, don't make sense
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes..his escape from freedom.....our inclination to submit ourselves to authoritarian leaders
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause you wont
[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: its amazing how he shows the correlations.
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): history shows this including other awful leaders like for ex Erdogan
[13:26] CB Axel: Bejiita, I think it's because people are lazy and don't want to think for themselves.
[13:26] herman Bergson: Freedom makes lonely Bejiita....
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but do u want terror in exang for this?
[13:26] herman Bergson: You are on your own.....
[13:26] herman Bergson: have to make active links with fellowmen
[13:27] CB Axel: It's easier to stare stupidly at a TV show and let others make decisions for you.
[13:27] herman Bergson: it is his Freedom TO......
[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: well its certainly whats happening right now hermann
[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: and a lot of the dynamics between the sexes shows that...
[13:27] herman Bergson: It already started in the 70s....
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if the leader was a good one i could get it but all these, Trump Erdogan ect are total swines
[13:28] herman Bergson: and when the communist countries collapsed ...that was the extra push
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): greedy power hungry bastards they are anting everything for themselves, i would not want a leader like that
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wanting
[13:29] herman Bergson: A concept like solidarity has almost disappeared....
[13:29] herman Bergson: sharing....
[13:29] herman Bergson: mutual support
[13:30] herman Bergson: all these believes of the 60s and 70s
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a sad development
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: has it really? or is it just on the one hand institutionalized and on the other privatized?
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting ciska
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hmmm
[13:30] herman Bergson: hmmmm....maybe to some extend indeed Ciska
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): too
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: it has to do with emancipation
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: women used to be the glue of societies
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: now they work
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: they used to provide sharing
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: support
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: the classic housewife was engaged in the neighborhood
[13:31] herman Bergson: Where will it all lead to?
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I think we still do try to do both
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: and he neighborhood built the community
[13:31] CB Axel: True, but I think if you look at women in the work place, especially in the US Congress, it's the women who cooperate and work together.
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: we still do that Gemma yes
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: but we privatize more
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: and it leads to more man having to do what herman stated before
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: [13:26] herman Bergson: have to make active links with fellowmen
[13:33] herman Bergson: ahh yes....
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: they have to share
[13:33] CB Axel: Networking?
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: but men  have mor difficulties with sharing and networking
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: whereas we still have some sort of a basic plan
[13:33] CB Axel: Women can do that, too, but men have kept women out of their networks.
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some do
[13:33] herman Bergson: sharing solidarity regarding all kinds of social issues
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: yes
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmmm
[13:33] herman Bergson: These days it all looks black or white.....
[13:34] herman Bergson: the middle is disappearing
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems so
[13:34] herman Bergson: But I have no explanation for this process
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: I do ;)
[13:35] herman Bergson: Tell us Ciska!
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe Ciska
[13:35] CB Axel: The process that removed the middle or a process for bringing it back?
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: its really the power dynamics...  which do "break down" on all ends with people not yet fit for it
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i still blame my hated ayn rand for a lot
[13:35] herman Bergson: Can we have it both CB ? :-)
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: so people want those back and vote for trump
[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: (who threw a nice tantrum at general motors today)
[13:36] CB Axel nods
[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: yes Gemma - she expressed a lot of that
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who has no clue who rand is but is her most devoted disciple ever!!!
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems so for sure
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): egoism personified
[13:37] herman Bergson: We notice what is happening btu can't influence it, it seems
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: well
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: it has to do with evaluation
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I just hope i see glimmers of change in attitude that occur in little things happening
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i soo want to use my new ubunto server machine to hack trumps systems and CRASH CRASH CRASH and put all right again
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: evaluating social processes on a broader range seems something which is difficult for a significant part of society.
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but of course i cant
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and perhaps making a difference
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): want to make something go in right direction
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully people will soon realize
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): make special golf clubs bejita
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe well that maybee
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): anti trump clubs
[13:39] herman Bergson: Maybe something starts changing after January 1
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): why?
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:39] herman Bergson: When the dems have the congres
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): why Jan 1
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well
[13:40] CB Axel: Only half of the Congress.
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they will be asking a lot of questions
[13:40] CB Axel: Only the house
[13:40] herman Bergson: The already are busy preparing all kindsof investigations
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): taht may help in the 2020 elections
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Mr trump is running now
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is evident
[13:41] herman Bergson: He maybe is already scared
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well it was to me long before he even got into the white house he was not suited at all for that
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh he is definitely scared
[13:41] CB Axel: I think that's why he's become interested in federal prison reform. He's afraid he'll go to jail.
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): more each day
[13:41] Now playing: BACH - Phantasm - The Art of Fugue - incomplete Contrapuntus
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:41] CB Axel: And I afraid he won't.
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well they should have locked him into an asylum from start and threw the key away id say
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): before he got into the white house
[13:42] herman Bergson: We'll see what will happen...
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): this is what the world thinks of our president
[13:42] CB Axel: I felt that way back in the '70's, Bejiita. You know. Before it was cool.
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: I think they all work hard around him to keep him afloat right now... but he looks more and more like someone at the verge of a psychological break down
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Sanders would have been  a great choise instead, he seems to have something in the head at least
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he has looked like that for years tho
[13:43] herman Bergson: At least he might  have read Fromm :-)
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he does not read
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he never did
[13:43] herman Bergson: Sanders?
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: sanders...
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Benie
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: I bet sanders did yes
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Bernie who ran for president
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes he sure did
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes that  man...
[13:44] CB Axel: Bernie is the right age to have read Fromm.
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes
[[13:44] Tessy (tess.messmer): I voted for Trump and as of right now my vote has not changed. time will tell how this will all play out but I like the way things are going
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he seemed much better president candidate then trump for sure and what i have picked up is all ok
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): do you really think so tessy?
[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes Tessy, a lot of people agree with you
[13:45] CB Axel: Well, Tessy, you're the only one here who thinks things are going well.
[13:45] Tessy (tess.messmer): yes i do gemma
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the world is going toward more egoism, racism hate and greed
[13:45] Tessy (tess.messmer): its ok as long as ya all don't hate on me to much :)
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats not a good thing
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks not
[13:46] herman Bergson: There is no problem in disagreeing with eachother :-)
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wonders what wil happen to Detroit area economy with thousands being laid off
[13:46] Tessy (tess.messmer): i agree
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): already not good
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tariffs are not helping i am afraid
[13:47] Tessy (tess.messmer): also live by Detroit . things will be just fine when Michigan ever gets a better senator
[13:47] herman Bergson: Doesn't seem so
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will see
[13:47] Tessy (tess.messmer): detroit has been such a wasteland for so many years  trump didnt make that mess
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no he did not
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for sure
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that was before yes
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 2008 when everything came crashing down
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he is making the rest of the world a mess Tessy
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:48] CB Axel: And he's not helping Detroit.
[13:48] Tessy (tess.messmer): some believe that but i do not
[13:48] herman Bergson: Don't know Beertje....
[13:49] herman Bergson: I think he is isolating the US more and more
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true Herman
[13:49] herman Bergson: In stead of international solidarity he left a number of international treaties
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: he might be the reason for russia and china teamng up more... we will see
[13:50] CONNIE Eichel is online.
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that will be interesting for sure
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): time will tell
[13:50] herman Bergson: Well...then I would suggest to take that time now :-))
[13:50] Tessy (tess.messmer): yes he did leave them. but i am in understanding its in amarecias best intrest for him to do that
[13:51] herman Bergson: Time will tell Tessy
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: you will see yes
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but how can it when other countire will take our place with a different focus
[13:51] Tessy (tess.messmer): i might yes . but either way i think we will all be ok
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: some of the bigger companies do think about leaving...
[13:51] CB Axel: It's in America's best interest to go it alone with no allies? I doubt that.
[13:51] herman Bergson: SO may I thank you all again for saving the world again....:-)
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):China changes the attitude of the far east to their benefit because we are not there
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we will never do it
[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: thanks herman - thanx all
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think trump only sees to his own ego and wallet, not to USA, he is just using US to gain more money and ego himself
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a lure
[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....ˆ_ˆ
[13:52] Tessy (tess.messmer): and the other choice was Clinton or Bernie? JOKES
[13:52] Tessy (tess.messmer): thanks all. . class was fun :)
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): herman
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well Bernie i liked
[13:52] Tessy (tess.messmer): thank you herman
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see you thurday
[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes we can have our doubts about them too Tessy :-)
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we hope
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well time will tell, need to run for another event
[13:53] Tessy (tess.messmer): :)
[13:53] CB Axel: See you all, Thursday.
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:53] Tessy (tess.messmer): had to pick someone
[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman & Class
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i can agree the other choice was not a good one either
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): pest or colera
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu next time
[13:53] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: bye everyone
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for noe
[13:53] Tessy (tess.messmer): yes :) bye everyone
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu

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