Sunday, December 2, 2018

748: The Roaring Twenties.....

Our main question still is, on whose shoulders are we standing and what of the 20th century shaped our time of today?
It is 1925. Maybe the most important two events of this first quarter of the 20th century were the development of science and World War One.
Just imagine.  In the first decennium there had been more discoveries in science than in the precious three centuries.
Not only in the field of physics, but also in psychology, which had taken a completely new turn with Freud's theory of psycho-analysis.
The next experience of Europe is a total devastation of mankind in the First World War. Innumerable soldiers were killed and sacrificed in meaningless battles over trenches.
It is obvious that the question of the meaning of life had become an important one among artists, writers and philosophers.
But from the outside those times were called the "Roaring Twenties". It refers to the decade of the 1920s in Western society and Western culture. 
It was a period of economic prosperity with a distinctive cultural edge in the United States and Western Europe, 
particularly in major cities such as Berlin, Vienna, Paris, London, Los Angeles, Chicago, New York City.
In France, the decade was known as the "années folles" ('crazy years'), emphasizing the era's social, artistic and cultural dynamism. 
This period saw the large-scale development and use of automobiles, telephones, motion pictures, radio, and electrical appliances. 
Aviation became a business. Nations saw rapid industrial and economic growth, accelerated consumer demand, and significant changes in lifestyle and culture.
But underneath this vibrant life a battle, a struggle was going on. One, which would have serious consequences for the times to come.
The struggle focused on the question of the meaning of life.  The thesis then was: the pursuit of objectivity and the need to give meaning to life are irreconcilable,
or said in a more philosophical way: what we know or can know about life and the meaning of life, is this based on rationality, read 'science', or is it based on what we know by our gut?
We'll get back to it later in more detail, but a lot of cultural phenomena in art and literature were actually discussing 
the value of rationally based knowledge versus  irrationally based knowledge. And whatever you decide, it will have major social impact.
And this controversy still exists in the 21st century, where you hear a leader of government say about  climate change, and I quote:
One of the problems that a lot of people like myself, we have very high levels of intelligence but we are not necessarily such believers... 
as to whether or not it 's man-made and whether or not the effects, that you are talking about are there, I don't see it. -END QUOTE-
And after that you get the epistemological underpinning, and I quote again:
I am doing deals and I am not accommodated by the Fed...They're making a mistake because I have a gut and my gut tells me more sometimes than anybody else's brain can ever tell me. -END QUOTE -
The struggle between and consequences of rationality versus was then and it is today.
Thank you for your attention again... :-)

The Discussion

[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:16] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:16] herman Bergson: On what do you base your decisions....on rational thinking or on irrational thoughts
[13:16] CB Axel: IMO, there is a lot to be said for gut instinct, but not when it contradicts facts.
[13:16] elisabeth3210: sometimes we choose not to know in situations where we could know, should know, but we don't because unconscious biases obscure our view.. its called willful blindness :p
[13:17] herman Bergson: cognitive dissonance...Elisabeth....
[13:17] CB Axel: You have to be able change your mind regarding your instinct when there is proof that what you believed is wrong.
[13:17] elisabeth3210: that too :)
[13:17] Tessy (tess.messmer): I base mine on either , depending on what the subject is
[13:17] herman Bergson: But CB....
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's hard for some people to edmit that they are wrong
[13:18] herman Bergson: how much is to say for gut instinct
[13:18] elisabeth3210: right, but attention is an intentional unapologitic discriminator, our brain often rejects info which broadens our outlook or current view point
[13:19] CB Axel: I didn't say ignoring your gut was easy. LOL
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:19] herman Bergson: ok...but now this.....
[13:19] herman Bergson: pure philosophically...
[13:19] herman Bergson: science deals with facts...
[13:19] herman Bergson: you can debate what is a fact
[13:20] herman Bergson: but science has a method....
[13:20] herman Bergson: by using facts it can predict other facts and you can test that....and it works...
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:20] elisabeth3210: nods
[13:20] herman Bergson: otherwise we wouldnt have medicines for instance
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true and logical
[13:21] herman Bergson: this is all product of our brain...we cal it knowledge....
[13:21] herman Bergson: but now...
[13:21] herman Bergson whispers: this other knowledge....originating from a gut...whatever that is...sometime I get the impression it is the gutter ;-)
[13:22] herman Bergson: but what knowledge producing system or method is this gut feeling?
[13:22] elisabeth3210: if its an instinct (gut feeling, intuition, ...) its not knowledge
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha well if its from the gutter it is indeed really noo good stuff
[13:22] elisabeth3210: or is it?
[13:23] herman Bergson: isnt knowledge Elisabeth...
[13:23] herman Bergson: you cant test it, falcify it or whatever
[13:23] herman Bergson: but yet we seem to believe in it....
[13:24] elisabeth3210: nods
[13:24] herman Bergson: when your gut tells you that there is no climate change....people seems to believe you  (when you are in a certain position of authority) it seems
[13:24] CB Axel: When put in an intense situation where things are changing rapidly such as a battle, gut instinct helps, but once the situation changes one has to take a step back and look at what happened and assess what your gut had told you.
[13:24] elisabeth3210: specially when it comes to building up narratives about the purpose of our life, our goals, what we want to do, true
[13:24] herman Bergson: There you have a point, CB....
[13:25] CB Axel: Climate change is happening, but we have time to look at the science and make decisions based on that.
[13:25] herman Bergson: But that resulting behavior is not based on knowledge or conclusions....
[13:25] herman Bergson: ti is produced by the basic emotions we discussed in previous projects....fear, hate , disgust , anger....
[13:26] herman Bergson: originating from the 'reptilian brain'
[13:26] herman Bergson: not from the prefrontal cortex
[13:26] herman Bergson: we NEED these reflexes...absolutely...
[13:26] CB Axel: I'm just saying that saying gut instinct is from the gutter is a bit harsh.
[13:27] herman Bergson: certainly in situations of danger
[13:27] herman Bergson: I am sorry...was just a pun...
[13:27] Tessy (tess.messmer): animals rely on there instincts to hunt ? not science
[13:27] herman Bergson: yes
[13:27] CB Axel: When I worked as a paramedic, I often had to go with my gut in some situations. Although, even then my gut was informed by my training.
[13:28] herman Bergson: Absolutely true, acted on what you might call trained instinct, I guess
[13:28] CB Axel: Yes, animals react to things on instinct, but I would hope our great, big hominid brains can do more than that.
[13:28] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.
[13:29] herman Bergson: But holding social, economical and political views based on your gut, that is worrisome in my opinion
[13:29] CB Axel: And even animals learn where the best food is found and what techniques of obtaining that food are.
[13:29] herman Bergson: yes
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:30] CB Axel: I agree, Herman. We need to use these great, big hominid brains once in a while. :)
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its good in some cases but not in others
[13:30] herman Bergson: I agree, CB :-)
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the gut feel
[13:30] herman Bergson: Explain Bejiita
[13:30] herman Bergson: please
[13:31] herman Bergson: How do you determine for instance in which ratio or by gut?
[13:32] herman Bergson: what criterai to use?
[13:32] CB Axel: Time.
[13:32] herman Bergson: the spilt second....:-)
[13:32] Tessy (tess.messmer): yes
[13:33] herman Bergson: oh yes...saved lives..I am sure
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well things based o science facts should not be used with gut feel, as for ex trump probaby use his gut feel instead of the actual science facts that 100% prooves that carbon dioxide is causing climate changes
[13:33] CB Axel: Do you have time to look at the facts or will you get eaten by a lion if you wait too long?
[13:33] herman Bergson: But I think that is more acting on (survival) reflexes than on....whatever else...gut.....ratio
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): gut feel and science are 2 different things and should be used in the right applications
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then i have never actually thought of comparing these 2 thigs
[13:34] elisabeth3210: Yual Noah Harari covers this issue in his book 21 lessons for the 21st century, and warns us on how dangerous this instinct mechanism is these days, since we are exposed to an enormous amount of manipulation, the data we process are not those of the natural world, but those the media feed us through the internet, networks, algorithms
[13:34] elisabeth3210: Yuval*
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:35] CB Axel: Interesting, elisabeth.
[13:35] Tessy (tess.messmer): we have lost that GUT feel
[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): separate true facts from noncense
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there gut fel is important
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Tessy..because we have become rational animals....
[13:35] elisabeth3210: if you are at the African savanna facing a tiger and an escape route, its fine to let your gut inform you on what to do.. but we live in an informational cocoon
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that naaaa this cant be right
[13:35] CB Axel: I don't think we've lost it, Tessy. I just think we shouldn't rely on it.
[13:35] CB Axel: Right, Herman.
[13:35] CB Axel: No tigers in Africa.
[13:35] elisabeth3210: right lol
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:36] elisabeth3210: grins
[13:36] herman Bergson: We have created a CULTURE....
[13:36] CB Axel: If I was faced with a tiger on the African savanna, I'd get eaten because I'd be standing there scratching my head wondering how the hell did a tiger get here?
[13:36] herman Bergson: No other animal on this planet ha a culture.....writes litereature, created painting, has a language
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol CB
[13:37] herman Bergson: No would get eaten because you look so delicious
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): loool
[13:37] CB Axel blushes
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))
[13:37] herman Bergson grins
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (tries to eat CB)
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahah
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): noo i wont
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:38] CB Axel: But you see, that would be a situation where gut instinct would serve me better than knowledge. LOL
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (continues munching chocolate)
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:39] CB Axel: Stick with the chocolate, Bejiita. I'm sure it tastes much better than I.
[13:39] herman Bergson: oops almost made a wrong joke
[13:39] herman Bergson: you see.....
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha
[13:40] herman Bergson: this controvery between rationality and irrationality is really some issue in those days the 20s....but still is today
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems so for sure
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well it is as it is
[13:41] herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll show you more of what was happing in those days and what we inherited....
[13:41] herman Bergson: Unless you still have a burning question......?
[13:41] herman Bergson: I'd love to see you next Tuesday again ..happy an healthy...:-)
[13:42] CB Axel: That should be interesting. :)
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): my gut says its party somewhere so ill check for that
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:42] CB Axel: LOL
[13:42] herman Bergson: Ok...
[13:42] elisabeth3210: I´m with the stoics in this one, *virtue is in the rational, it depends on our ability to reason* :)
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have fun Bejiita
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause there use to be aftert this
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): after
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:42] herman Bergson: Class my gut feeling right now :-))
[13:42] CB Axel: My gut says I need to go buy groceries because my gut is empty right now. :)
[13:42] elisabeth3210: haha
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu next time
[13:42] elisabeth3210: see u ^^
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now
[13:43] CB Axel: See you Tuesday. Bye.
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:43] Tessy (tess.messmer): thank you Herman
[13:43] herman Bergson: Thank you all again :-))
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Goodnight :))
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice as usual
[13:43] Tessy (tess.messmer): See you all next Tuesday
[13:43] elisabeth3210: I´d tip if I could, im just poor as a rat lol. ty for the lecture xx

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