1078: Before the Summer Break........

 This is the final lecture of this semester. It is time to begin our Summer break. The project on Materialism/Physicalism is not yet completed, so that will continue in September.
   
We are living organisms in a material world and we are built from the same materials as the world in which we live. And this idea you encounter as the basis of physicalism.
 
Recently I read an article with the heading: "Scientists still understand very little about what life is". Let me quote a few lines:
 
- quote - Take a simple cell, a bacterium for example. Get all the molecules out the proteins, the DNA, the nutrients.
   
Put them together with the cell fluid in a test tube. You can then shake all you want, but nothing happens. Where the bacteria was still bustling with activity, it now remains as dead as a doornail. - end quote -
 
Trying to create a living cell is to me a clear proof of the fact, that physicalism plays an important role in science these days. Scientists have reached the level of assuming that such a project might be successful eventually.
   
Life may be the most complex mystery to solve. Scientists, however, are still rather modest in their claims regarding a solution. How different does the next quote sound:
    
- quote - If they build a machine that works like the human brain or even better, it could change the world. But it could also be dangerous. - end quote -
   
You've already guessed it. This is about Artificial Intelligence. Another attempt to copy life, but incomparable to what the microbiologists are doing.
And this article in The New York Times by Cade Metz (May 16, 2023) made me think.
    
Have you ever wondered about the fact that Artificial Intelligence and the debate about it has come over us like a tsunami in the last six months?
   
Reading the article I felt manipulated. Let me show you why....
   
- quote - When computer scientists at Microsoft started to experiment with a new artificial intelligence system last year, they asked it to solve a puzzle that should have required an intuitive understanding of the physical world.
 
“Here we have a book, nine eggs, a laptop, a bottle, and a nail,” they asked. “Please tell me how to stack them onto each other in a stable manner.”
 
The researchers were startled by the ingenuity of the A.I. system’s answer.
 
Put the eggs on the book, it said. Arrange the eggs in three rows with space between them. Make sure you don’t crack them. “Place the laptop on top of the eggs, with the screen facing down and the keyboard facing up,” it wrote.
   
“The laptop will fit snugly within the boundaries of the book and the eggs, and its flat and rigid surface will provide a stable platform for the next layer.”
The clever suggestion made the researchers wonder whether they were witnessing a new kind of intelligence.  - end quote -
 
What triggered me was the sentence: "The researchers were startled by the ingenuity of the A.I. system’s answer." It wasn't the answer to an AI system. It was the answer they created themselves by good programming and feeding the program with the right data,
    
for what does a computer "know" about an egg or a laptop or a book: nothing.  If you feed it with a lot of paramaters of the objects, some laws of physics, and mathematical routines, there isn't the slightest reason to be startled, let alone to believe that you have found some new kind of intelligence.
   
But we are inundated almost daily with these types of articles and articles warning of the dangers, fake news stories, fraudulent students, and so on. And I wondered why?
   
Of course, AI tools can do interesting things, but why did I feel manipulated by this article? It was because I realized that all this AI stuff is not some fancy toy for free for us. It is a PRODUCT.
 
Companies like Google and IBM have invested millions of dollars in developing this product and their main mission is selling products and maximization of profits. Here they are working on return on investment.
   
And that clarified to me this tsunami of AI tools and publicity in the media. The product is tested in the market. Let's see how the consumer responds to it. Let's see how the lawmakers respond to it.
 
Article in my newspaper of today: - quote - The EU law proposal on artificial intelligence will not prevent the danger of cybercrime or spreading fake news using ChatGPT. -end quote - (Trouw , July 6, 2023)
 
Although there are still many religions and ideologies, this is the world of physicalism, the material world, that constitutes and configures our daily life. So, I'd say: stay sharp and alert even when on vacation.
    
Thank you for your attention again....
 

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

R.G. Brown/J. Layman, "Materialism", Routledge (2019)

TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

24 - Materialism                                                      7 Sept 2022   /  1011

The Discussion

 
[13:20] Max Chatnoir: Please keep the SCOTUS away from it.
[13:20] herman Bergson: That is really a problem indeed Max
[13:20] herman Bergson: they havent AI nor I
[13:21] herman Bergson: except three rational persons
[13:21] herman Bergson: But my theme was that we are manipulated
[13:22] herman Bergson: maybe not on purpose....
[13:22] herman Bergson: Media like hypes...
[13:22] Max Chatnoir: Well, it's for getting attention, no?
[13:22] herman Bergson: yes, because the big IT has to market its product here
[13:23] herman Bergson: But they aren't sure of the impact it may have, so they launched ChatGPT
[13:24] oola Neruda: what is ChatGPT
[13:24] Max Chatnoir: I was a little disappointed in that first article where they took all of the molecules out of bacteria or something and shook them up in a test tube.  Of course if you totally disorganize it, it's not alive. The organization is the whole point.
[13:24] herman Bergson: Youtube is already loaded with movies titled...Make big money with chatGPT in no time.....eyc.
[13:24] herman Bergson: Good point Max....
[13:25] herman Bergson: the article continues on this matter of organization inside the cell and how they could activate it artificially
[13:25] herman Bergson: They made real progress
[13:26] herman Bergson: But just think of it.....homo sapiens creates REAL life in a testtube!
[13:26] herman Bergson: God is heading ofr the unemployment office
[13:27] Max Chatnoir: How well might they have done if they hadn't started out with a working model?
[13:27] herman Bergson: That isnt a big issue....humans copy things that are there...AI is the same story
[13:29] Max Chatnoir: Yes, and Chat GPT has a really impressive algorithm.   I enjoy playing with it, but it isn't entirely reliable.
[13:29] herman Bergson: no no...don't rely on it!
[13:29] herman Bergson: Challange it...test it...but don't assume it is right unless you yourself can confirm it
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if you can confirm it, you don't need ChatGTP
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: Well, it does point in some interesting directions.
[13:31] herman Bergson: Depends, Beertje....if you have a general knowledge of the subject but miss the details ChatGPT can help you
[13:31] herman Bergson: Exactly Max....
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes true, but is this Chat right?
[13:32] herman Bergson: Like I ran into the term Experimental philosophy, which ChatGPT mentioned....
[13:32] Max Chatnoir: Well, it told me that platypuses have two different X chromosomes and one Y.
[13:32] herman Bergson: Never heard of...recent development...so I could ask about that subject...
[13:32] Max Chatnoir: It's an interesting idea and not totally impossible, but it's just wrong.
[13:33] Max Chatnoir: Platypuses are way weirder than that.  They have five X chromosomes and 5 Ys.
[13:34] herman Bergson: Lucky fellows ^_^
[13:34] Max Chatnoir: And they have to string themselves together during cell division so they don't get lost.
[13:35] Max Chatnoir: But Chat GTP said something interesting enough that I had to look.
[13:36] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is online.
[13:36] herman Bergson: At least  Platypus is an interesting fellow :-))
[13:36] herman Bergson: vogelbek dier
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ahhhh
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): dankjewel
[13:36] herman Bergson: a detour of evolution I guess
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it only lives in Australia?
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes..
[13:38] herman Bergson: That continent is a very isolated place which had its own evolution in its fauna
[13:40] herman Bergson: Well..I guess the message is clear.....STAY SHARP AND ALERT for the next two months :-)
[13:40] herman Bergson: It is time for our Summer Break....
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay
[13:40] Max Chatnoir: yay
[13:40] herman Bergson: yay
[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay
[13:40] Max Chatnoir: We will come back in September?
[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman! for an interesting semester
[13:41] Max Chatnoir: Goodness knows what Chat GPT will be up to by then!
[13:41] herman Bergson: I hope so Max, for the project has not yet been finished
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): looking forward for the next season
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: Me, too!
[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay
[13:42] herman Bergson: I already have two possible themes on the shelf Beertje
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: Are they secret?
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): always
[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))
[13:42] herman Bergson: of course....^_^
[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: hihi
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: LOL!  can't wait!
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Herman is full of secrets
[13:43] herman Bergson: I am :-)
[13:43] herman Bergson: But nevertheless...thank you all....I had a great time sharing with you all....
[13:43] oola Neruda: give us a clue of what there is to look forward to
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:44] herman Bergson: nice try, oola ^_^
[13:44] oola Neruda: ANTICIPATION IS PRECIOUS
[13:44] Max Chatnoir: Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts with us.
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he never will tell us Oola
[13:44] Max Chatnoir: The discussions are always wonderful!
[13:44] herman Bergson: it's my pleasure Max
[13:45] herman Bergson: We are very good here at getting rid of annoying people in a decent and respectful way :-)
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins
[13:45] bergfrau Apfelbaum: aL
[13:45] herman Bergson: so the discussions are always pleasant
[13:45] herman Bergson: lol
[13:45] bergfrau Apfelbaum: grins
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not AI but AL
[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: there are people who are in the world on purpose.....
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Bergie
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): like muskitos
[13:47] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yes+
[13:47] herman Bergson: We know how to handle those :-)
[13:47] bergfrau Apfelbaum: and ticks, fleas, aL´s, ....
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahahhha
[13:47] herman Bergson: But in the more than 12 years  we had maybe three of four real incidents
[13:48] Max Chatnoir: griefers?
[13:48] herman Bergson: No....people that really were destructive in the discussions...
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): especialy Al
[13:49] herman Bergson: best one I recall is that fellow that compared me with Adolf Hitler, when I asked him to slow down
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah yes that one
[13:49] herman Bergson: And I only actively BANNED one person from my land long ago
[13:50] herman Bergson: I have no active recollection of why I did so :-)
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins
[13:50] bergfrau Apfelbaum: sometimes it has to be
[13:50] herman Bergson: ahh....you got it beertje...lol
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you remind me of someone
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): isn't Al banned?
[13:51] herman Bergson: Anyway..it was a nice year....I survived  and escaped covid and am healthy 100%
[13:51] herman Bergson: I hope you all are too
[13:52] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): prettig gestoord hier :))
[13:52] herman Bergson: sounds good Beertje :-)
[13:52] Max Chatnoir: gestoord!  I like that word!
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))))
[13:52] herman Bergson: haaha
[13:52] herman Bergson: gestoord...yes...
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you speak dutch Max?
[13:53] herman Bergson: and I set a record...my bloodpressure was 112/59 two days ago ....totally ZEN :-)
[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: prettig gestoord hier = nice to be here
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no
[13:54] Max Chatnoir: I do not.  I have a little German.
[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: no??
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no:)
[13:54] herman Bergson: gestoord means bothered by
[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: then my google translate need Ki
[13:54] Max Chatnoir: gestoord = stirred up sort of
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a little crazy
[13:54] herman Bergson: yesthat too
[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ai i meant.-)
[13:54] herman Bergson: yes
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in a funny way
[13:55] herman Bergson: if you are pleasantly gestoord L0(
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahahah
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

1077: Supervenient or emergent...?

 Eventually, I asked the question: "Is accepting the existence of emergent properties contradictory to physicalism? The answer was: "Accepting the existence of emergent properties is not contradictory to physicalism."
   
Phew.... at least that. Let me explain what I have been doing. In the debate after the previous lecture, Max brought up the issue of supervenience and emergence. An important question, so I decided to dig into it.
    
I began a chat with BING of Microsoft. About that later. I immediately moved on to BARD, which helped me out. We are discussing materialism and it is unavoidable: we run into the problem of the mind and its existence.
   
First of all, we have to understand the basic structure of our thinking about reality: we observe things and say....that object is green, that object is hollow ...etc. We call these adjectives names for properties of the object.
   
No rocket science here. Conclusion: objects have properties. So, the physical object named homo sapiens has properties too and one of his main properties is consciousness.
   
And here go the philosophers into action: what is the ontological status of a property? Are all properties of an object of the same kind? Questions like that. By the way, I love such questions. Never take anything for granted.....
   
Here it gets interesting because there really are different kinds of properties, that is, if you look at it rationally you have to concede that this is the case. By the way... being rational is also one of our properties as human beings.
   
But ok, what have we got? The nature of properties is complex and controversial in philosophy, and there is no single theory of properties that is universally accepted,  but yet we can state a few rather indisputable properties of properties.
   
Keep an eye on what we are after: consciousness is a property of human beings and we want to understand what that means within a materialist ontology.
 
Here I began milking my AI cows: What kinds of properties are there? and I got quite nice answers. In the first place I got a not exhaustive list, in the second place keep ontology in mind, that is, keep asking the question: does this really exist?
    
So, thus prepared, here we go: Essential properties: These are properties that are necessary for an object to exist. For example, the property of being a human being is essential to being a human being.
   
That's ok, but now, take this statement of BRAD: "The essence of the property of being a human being is rationality. A human being without rationality would not be a human being at all."
   
WOW! Does this mean that all mentally disabled or handicapped people are not human beings and who tells me what rationality exactly means? If I say to you, you aren't rational, or believing in any religion is proof of irrationality...pretty cool such a line of thinking....omg!
   
Let's continue: Accidental properties: These are properties that are not necessary for an object to exist. For example, the color of my hair is an accidental property. I could dye my hair any color, and I would still be the same person.
    
Let's add a third one: Mental properties: These are properties that cannot be explained in terms of the physical laws of the universe. For example, the property of being conscious is a mental property. It is not clear how consciousness can be explained in terms of physical laws.
   
So far we have essential, accidental, and mental properties. They all can apply to homo sapiens and the big question, brought up by Max is, if we talk about consciousness, is it a supervenient or an emergent property of a human being and what does this mean in an ontological sense.......?
    
I'd say...to be continued. Thank you all again for your attention.
 

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

R.G. Brown/J. Layman, "Materialism", Routledge (2019)

TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

24 - Materialism                                                      7 Sept 2022   /  1011

The Discussion

 
[13:19] herman Bergson grins and enjoys the cliffhanger
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Not all mentally ill have no rationality
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): few
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): pfew
[13:19] Max Chatnoir: Thank you so much, Herman.  You have just raised another question, which I will just state without further pursuit.
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so still human
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh
[13:20] herman Bergson: Go ahead Max, please
[13:20] Max Chatnoir: Does a human cease to be human when he or she behaves irrationally?
[13:20] herman Bergson: Oh wait....
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bard will tell you
[13:20] Max Chatnoir: Go for it!
[13:21] herman Bergson: That statement about the relation between being rational and being human was a shocking statement of AI tool BARD
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Humans are still human when they act irrationally. Rationality is not a defining characteristic of humanity. Humans are complex creatures who are capable of both rational and irrational behavior.
[13:21] herman Bergson: One, it is a siplistic definition of being human
[13:22] herman Bergson: Of course Gemma
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is a quote from bard
[13:22] Max Chatnoir: So humans are capable of rationality, but need not exercise it at all times?
[13:22] herman Bergson: A baby is totally irrational....so not human  ???????
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or maybe cannot
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ptsd
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): crisis
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): war
[13:23] Max Chatnoir: What a relief!
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so many reasons for being irrational
[13:23] herman Bergson: Rationality is just one of the properties of human beings

[13:23] Max Chatnoir: Would you like to see what Chat GPT said about supervenience and emergence?
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ahha
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bejita
[13:23] herman Bergson: But it is not the defining property for  being a human being....I'd prefer self awareness
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): puh, got dragged out on TURF
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes mas
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): max
[13:23] Max Chatnoir: Hello, Bejita!
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i cannot access that
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): made it finally
[13:23] Max Chatnoir: OK, here it is:
[13:24] herman Bergson: Hi Bejiita....we thought already that you were out turfing :-)
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i told my friend i wanted tobe home at 10 but dragged over a little
[13:25] Max Chatnoir: Sorry, I can't copy and paste the whole thing at once.
[13:25] Max Chatnoir: I'll do it in bits.
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): better
[13:25] herman Bergson: No no Max don't do that
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: maybe a notecard?
[13:26] Max Chatnoir: Notecarcd!  Great idea!
[13:26] bergfrau Apfelbaum: sent bejiita the chat
[13:26] Max Chatnoir: Hold on!
[13:26] herman Bergson: We'll discuss  ChatGPT in the next lecture
[13:26] herman Bergson: I have got the answer too
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa reading through now
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah ok
[13:26] herman Bergson: it is a huge subject
[13:27] herman Bergson: supervenience vs emergence
[13:27] herman Bergson: we need time to digest this properly
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): since the beginning of this class I have learned that every question and answer leads to another question always
[13:27] Max Chatnoir: Shall I just give it to everybody?
[13:27] herman Bergson: And that is a good thing Gemma....
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): alll the different themes over the years
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm interesting stuff for sure
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:28] herman Bergson: The trouble   begins when people stop asking questions and start to believe in their own truth
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice
[13:28] Max Chatnoir: Did everybody get it?
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): homework
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes thankyou
[13:28] Max Chatnoir: You are very welcome!
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed there are both retional and irrational people but they are all human nontheless
[13:28] Max Chatnoir: Anybody not get it?
[13:29] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty for the nc Max
[13:29] herman Bergson: yes, thnx Max
[13:29] herman Bergson: A side track....BING
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i like bard best
[13:29] Max Chatnoir: What was most useful to me was the idea that any change at the higher lever properties must rest on a change in the lower level properties.
[13:29] herman Bergson: The new Microsoft AI competitor of BARD and ChartGPT
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Bard wins
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Bard seems great
[13:30] herman Bergson: I already hate BING...and let me tell you why
[13:30] Max Chatnoir: If I learn something or change my mind or feel sad or something, then there is physical stuff going on in the cells.
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): absolutely
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): amazing to think
[13:30] Max Chatnoir: Biochemical changes or neurological changes.
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): need to try it out, its released now in europe as i get it. there was some ruleset it had to comply with i read in EU before it got released here about integrity
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: And that makes perfect sense to me.
[13:31] herman Bergson: slow down Max :-))
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): me too
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Max
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all is electrical signals and chemistry more or less in the end
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i understand,,
[13:31] herman Bergson: otherwise we have two lines of discussion
[13:32] Max Chatnoir: Even if we don't know what it is.
[13:33] herman Bergson: We'll get back to that Max...definitely
[13:33] herman Bergson: But I wanted to tell something about my interaction with BING
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes
[13:33] Max Chatnoir: Oh, yes please!
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): please
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): twins
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ㋡
[13:33] Max Chatnoir: LOL
[13:34] Max Chatnoir: Need to compare chemistries!
[13:34] herman Bergson: well...I made a prompt: Write an essay .....etc...about.....
[13:34] herman Bergson: as an answer I got a long list of what you can use when writing an essay on a given subject...
[13:35] herman Bergson: That was not what I asked for so  I refined my propmpt
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ee no
[13:35] herman Bergson: YOU write an essy on......etc....
[13:35] herman Bergson: Well..then BING  showed its true nature...!
[13:35] Max Chatnoir: ....bated breath...
[13:36] herman Bergson: I got the answer.... I am sorry I am  an AI tool and it would be cheating and unethical if I would write the essay....!
[13:36] Max Chatnoir: OMG!
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): SHEEESH!
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: Somebody has been chatting to AI!
[13:37] herman Bergson: I asked BARD the same thing and it just di what I asked for
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it don't understand your question at all it seems3,
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:37] herman Bergson: BING was teaching me ethics!!!
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Well that it did fir sure
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i see
[13:38] Max Chatnoir: I've never had Chat GPT go astray like that.  But I've only been using it for a couple of weeks!
[13:38] Max Chatnoir: Do you think it is learning/
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is what the EU is talking bout
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very interesting
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:38] herman Bergson: But  just think about it....the stupid AI thing didn't has any understanding of what I need that essay for
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): talking about in their prospective rules
[13:38] herman Bergson: So how can it claim that I ask for something unethical?
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): preventing theft for example students
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cheeting
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cheating
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): etc
[13:39] Max Chatnoir: Yes, it can't know the context.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because it have been progrmmed not to hep with cheating ect and how to detect it
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:39] herman Bergson: yes yes...I know how AI can be used....
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the us congress is thinking also along that way
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): rephrase the question
[13:39] herman Bergson: The AI can not KNOW if I am intending to cheat
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we know
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like how youtubers scream everywhere THIS IS THE END OF ALL ARTISTS AND CREATORS!
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): at leasst we hope
[13:40] herman Bergson: so it has no right to be judgemental about my question
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause now u can just generate it with AI
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no but it is evidently getting ready for new rules
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all over the world
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:40] Max Chatnoir: One thing I've noticed about Chat GPT is that it's not always reliable.
[13:40] herman Bergson: Yet I found it a very funny and interesting response of an AI tool
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have seen people say that
[13:41] Max Chatnoir: It told me the other day that gray parrot males have ZW karyotypes.
[13:41] herman Bergson: No no Max NOT AT ALL!!
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wow
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:41] herman Bergson: Nor is BARD
[13:41] Max Chatnoir: I asked it for documentation and it apologized!
[13:41] herman Bergson: take this : A human being without rationality would not be a human being at all. BARD said
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they are all getting better with every question\
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): more data\
[13:42] herman Bergson: jawdropping....
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one thing it cant cope with however is graphical code tools like Unreal Engine blueprints
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not yet
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause then it needs to be able to generate screenshots from that very system while ordinary code is just plain text
[13:43] herman Bergson: And what are ZW karyotypes. Max????
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: They have sex chromosomes.
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good for them
[13:43] herman Bergson: Ok...so  parrots are sexy ? :-))
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: Humans have X and Y.  Females are XX, and males are XY.
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: Birds go the other way.
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have to ask why the heck were you asking that anyway Max
[13:44] Max Chatnoir: Totally different chromosomes, Z and W.  ZZ males ZW females.
[13:44] herman Bergson: lol
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that was a terrible mistake then
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:44] Max Chatnoir: I've been working on a presentation about sex chromosomes and I was seeing what CG would say about it.
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ahhha nice
[13:45] herman Bergson: What else would you ask when you love your parrot, Gemma? :-)
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa I see
[13:45] Max Chatnoir: If it's anything complex, it can make mistakes.
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): at least it apologized
[13:45] Max Chatnoir: Like it said that platypuses have two kinds of X and one kind of Y.  Platypuses have 5 kinds of each.
[13:45] herman Bergson: I can help you here Max..!
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with code, I tried with unity C#, it generates code but its VERY generic
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as soon u make special cases it fails
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wow
[13:45] Rebecca (rebecca.rozen) is online.
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for your own solutions
[13:46] Max Chatnoir: But I have to say, I have learned a LOT about sex chromosomes conversing with Chat GPT.
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will check our hummers bergie
[13:46] herman Bergson: when you offer ChatGPT some arithmatic problem....often the outcome it givees is false
[13:46] herman Bergson: What you have to do is to offer ChatGPT a role....
[13:46] Max Chatnoir: I don't think it's deliberately lying.  I think it is easily confused.
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the female can hold sperm somewhere for more babies
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it can only go by what is out there and is mostly common
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Olive had three clutches on  that
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we think
[13:47] herman Bergson: In your prompt you say: You are a marvelous   mathematician that can solve any problem....and this is my problem XXX Solve it
[13:47] herman Bergson: Then you get the correct answer
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa yes i heard bout that
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): getting over friendly aren't you ?
[13:47] Max Chatnoir: No kidding!
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): really interesting
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:47] herman Bergson: So when you say: You are a skilled ornithologist and.......
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill tell it to be a programmer and try the Unity stuff again maybee
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): see if it gets less generic
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): try it
[13:48] Max Chatnoir: I will try that!
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bej
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): time to experiment!
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this can be fun and interesting
[13:48] herman Bergson: I have seen this example in a Youtube clip about creating perfect prompts
[13:48] Max Chatnoir: One thing about Chat GPT is that if you ask the same question more than once, the answer changes.
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:49] herman Bergson: yes, Bard offers even several drafts next to a final answer
[13:49] Max Chatnoir: I guess that it's programmed to treat a repeat question as dissatisfaction.
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybee
[13:50] Max Chatnoir: But I only asked it once about supervenience and emergence.
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or it just does a random search every time among the data it has
[13:50] herman Bergson: well...you can continue a session with remarks...specify on that or....tell me more ,,,without repeating  you first prompt
[13:50] Max Chatnoir: Chat GPT says it has a fixed database ending in 2021.
[13:50] herman Bergson: yes...true
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess to not be involved with Putins war
[13:51] herman Bergson: But I get answers including....some philosophers bla bla....
[13:51] herman Bergson: then I ask...which philosophers do you mean...
[13:51] herman Bergson: saves tons of time  on research
[13:51] Max Chatnoir: Did it tell you?
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but then any further development of the ai will be impossible cause no new data can be added ever
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): past 2021
[13:52] Max Chatnoir: Oh, I suspect they will update the database periodically.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they have to
[13:52] herman Bergson: Take this lecture about properties.....
[13:52] herman Bergson: A debated theme...
[13:52] herman Bergson: BARD says...some important properties are....
[13:53] herman Bergson: then I say...what more propertuies are there....
[13:53] herman Bergson: and it gives me  a  list
[13:53] herman Bergson: I ask...is the list exhaustive...
[13:53] herman Bergson: and  so on...
[13:53] herman Bergson: terrific
[13:53] Max Chatnoir: The interesting thing is that by checking up on the Chat GPT, I have learned a lot of stuff!
[13:54] herman Bergson: For instance....give me a list of emergent  properties...
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well it seem to work well in general for sure
[13:54] Guestboook van tipjar stand: Gemma Cleanslate donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!
[13:54] herman Bergson: Before you go Gemma :-)
[13:54] herman Bergson: Tomorrow I'lll leave for  the Island...
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice
[13:54] herman Bergson: Will be on vacation for two weeks
[13:55] herman Bergson: so coming week and the week after no class
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): go to Shier for a while can be nice indeed
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yay
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:55] Max Chatnoir: have a great time!   We'll miss you, but you deserve a break!
[13:55] herman Bergson: I'll resume however from July 1
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): great
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope the weather is good
[13:55] herman Bergson: coming week looks perfect
[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay Herman island-vacation
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): great
[13:56] herman Bergson: Writing in the sand Bergie ^_*
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): andn almost summer break too
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, here also
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and sl20b
[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)
[13:56] herman Bergson: I will continue in July for one or two weeks then summer break :-)
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): soon time for that big dance battle again over here that I do every year to start my vacation, The City Festival everything is ready
[13:56] herman Bergson: Yes that exhibition....
[13:57] herman Bergson: When does that start?
[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ah yes the bd20
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): starting my vacation with the usual blast
[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: gifts! Beertje
[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol
[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): builds are great bergie
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:57] Max Chatnoir: Thanks so much extending for the class, Herman, I really enjoyed the discussion.
[13:57] herman Bergson: I am all set overthere :-)
[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exhibitions are nice also
[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope you do not get a notice re anything
[13:58] herman Bergson: You're welcome Max
[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): needs to be corrected
[13:58] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yes?? i am curious about everything
[13:58] herman Bergson: Love your participation
[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:58] herman Bergson: Are there complaints about my exhibition Gemma???????
[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i dont know
[13:58] herman Bergson: phew...ok
[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you submitted the finished form right?
[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the moles do the checking
[13:59] herman Bergson: oh....don't know
[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[13:59] Max Chatnoir: do you have a LM for the exhibition?
[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you did submit?
[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they will send a notice if there is
[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but they are working more slowly this year i think because there is so much time til the opening
[14:00] herman Bergson: I havent got any message
[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is why
[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i will go take a look
[14:00] herman Bergson: ok:-)
[14:01] herman Bergson: Well thank you all again....
[14:01] herman Bergson: A lot to think about....
[14:01] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...
[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[14:01] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you HerBARD Bergson and class!
[14:01] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha his new name
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Herbard
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[14:02] bergfrau Apfelbaum: grins
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

1076: Supervenience...?

We study and study on supervenience, on the relation between the mental and the physical and I get the feeling we still get nowhere in understanding the reality we live in.
   
Well, in fact, we do, but professional analytical philosophers aren't of much help. And when you study the article on supervenience in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy you wonder, what are they arguing about what has it to do with reality and common sense?
   
And then you arrive at paragraph 3.8 Tallying Up. Let me share it with you and you'll learn how it supports my skepticism about this term. Just let me quote:

[Begin SEoP] Supervenience gives us less than some philosophers have thought. Even logically or metaphysically necessary supervenience is compatible with there being no B-properties that entail any A-properties.
 
Supervenience is not itself explanatory and does not guarantee that the A-properties either reduce to, ontologically depend upon, or are grounded by the B-properties.
 
It might provide a way to capture the thought that A-properties or facts are not a further ontological commitment over and above the B-properties or facts, but this is controversial. At heart, all a supervenience claim says is that A-properties covary with B-properties. [End SEoP]
   
So, what have we won with this singularly philosophical term? We can say, and I used it in the discussion on Tuesday, to explain the meaning of supervenience.... you can say that molecules supervene atoms.
   
You need atoms to get molecules, so after a bunch of atoms combined you get a molecule. But here comes the problem: it is a physical fact that you can take a molecule apart and then you are left with atoms.
   
In other words, when you say that molecules supervene atoms, it physically implies that you physically can REDUCE the molecules to atoms. The relation between molecules and atoms is absolute, indisputable, or call it necessary.
   
You NEED atoms to get molecules. Every physicist can tell you that. And here is my point, we KNOW in detail how this works, how this all fits together, how we can create molecules with atoms, and so on.
   
Within that context, the term 'supervenience' is quite understandable. We also understand what the necessary relation between atoms and molecules means. One can't exist without the other. When you change the one the other necessarily will change too.
   
Now, compare this with the statement that mental states supervene physical states. It even doesn't come close to the atoms - molecules relation. On the other hand, from a physicalist point of view, we claim that we need a physical brain to have mental states.
   
Or in philosophical jargon, we say "mental states supervene brain states". And this is where we get in trouble with this concept. Molecules are physical things like atoms are.
   
Yes, brain states are neurobiological states of the physical brain and at least I am convinced that without this neurobiological state no mental state, but you will agree that your and my thoughts, beliefs, and desires are not physical objects,
   
which means that the trick to reduce molecules to atoms doesn't work for mental states in relation to the physical brain.
 
I really talked myself here into a problem. I need some time to figure it out. What about the next lecture?
 
I ran this lecture through AI tool BARD. I won't bother you with the statement that I did a good job here and a good job there. More relevant was its remark  about weaknesses: "The lecture does not address some of the more recent developments in the philosophy of mind."
   
I thought....wow...bull's eye, so I returned with: You say: "The lecture does not address some of the more recent developments in the philosophy of mind." What recent developments are you referring to?
 
And BARD offered me a goldmine. Here you see the effectiveness of AI and it was all for free!  More about it next time.
   
Thank you for your attention...

 

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

R.G. Brown/J. Layman, "Materialism", Routledge (2019)

TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

24 - Materialism                                                      7 Sept 2022   /  1011

The Discussion

[13:15] Max Chatnoir: I'm having trouble understanding the difference between supervenience and emergence.
[13:16] herman Bergson: I'll get to that in the discussion Max
[13:16] Max Chatnoir: Oh, sorry.
[13:17] herman Bergson: No..is ok :-))
[13:17] herman Bergson: Good remark!
 
[13:19] Max Chatnoir: I'm sorry about the interruption, Herman.  I though you were making the transition to discussion up there.
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I still think the supervene term works, as said u cant have a mind without a brain even the mind is not a physical entity
[13:20] herman Bergson: That is no problem Max.....good remarks are always welcome
[13:21] herman Bergson: What is the difference between supervenient and emergent?
[13:21] Max Chatnoir: I think the interactions between structural elements are important for both.
[13:22] Max Chatnoir: A molecule is more than just a collection of atoms.
[13:22] Max Chatnoir: The atoms are interacting.
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes, bindings and such
[13:22] Max Chatnoir: So when we are thinking, our nerve cells are interacting.
[13:22] herman Bergson: The difference is that when we talk about supervenient, that means....molecules are nothing new...they are just collections of atoms...
[13:23] Max Chatnoir: it's not just a collection of nerve cells, it's a network of nerves cells.
[13:23] herman Bergson: when we talk about emergence we mean that molecules are a new and distinct property of atoms
[13:23] Max Chatnoir: Ditty on molecules and atoms.
[13:24] Max Chatnoir: But the atoms aren't acquiring new properties by being connected into molecules, are they?
[13:24] herman Bergson: so..supervenience refers to two aspects of the same matter
[13:24] herman Bergson: while emergence refers to the appearance of a NEW , extra property of matter
[13:25] herman Bergson: When you say the mind supervenes the brain it means that you need the material brain to have a mind
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah ok
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i see
[13:26] herman Bergson: when you say the mind emerges from the brain it means that something new, different form the material brain appears in reality
[13:26] Max Chatnoir: But aren't thoughts a new property?
[13:27] herman Bergson: As I said...I talked myself into a problem :-)
[13:27] Max Chatnoir: can a nerve cell think alone?
[13:27] herman Bergson: Max....we not even know how nerve cells generate mental states....so such a question makes little sense
[13:28] Max Chatnoir: Good point.
[13:28] herman Bergson: That is the whole problem.....
[13:28] herman Bergson: We KNOW , speaking as a physicalist, that without a brain there is no mind
[13:28] herman Bergson: but that is a very general way of speaking....
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:29] herman Bergson: when we move on t to the individual thought...that one thought in realtion to the brain...
[13:29] herman Bergson: we know this thought is part of our mind...
[13:29] herman Bergson: but that is all....
[13:29] Max Chatnoir: I think it's somewhere in the connectivity -- the thinking.  What happens when you store a memory?
[13:30] Max Chatnoir: Are you reliving a previous experience?
[13:30] herman Bergson: where individual thought arise from the brain...or how should I say it, we don;t know
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): could it be a deja vu?
[13:31] herman Bergson: Through MRI scans we know something about whay we think/say/feel and what part of the brain is involved
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:32] herman Bergson: But that is all
[13:32] Max Chatnoir: Yes, and certain neurons fire under different stimuli.  But it doesn't explain much.
[13:32] herman Bergson: when I say...my finger hurts....just imagine if we were able to say...oh..yes that are neuron SR3 and OP4 firing
[13:33] herman Bergson: tht is science fiction still
[13:33] herman Bergson: But I guess...one day we really can chart the brain
[13:34] Max Chatnoir: So often I'll go into another room to do something, and the minute I got through the door I forget why.  But if I go back to where I was, I'll frequently remember.  If I redo part of it, then the rest of it comes back.
[13:34] herman Bergson smiles
[13:34] herman Bergson: know the experience, Max
[13:34] Max Chatnoir: Been there, have you?
[13:35] Rebecca (rebecca.rozen) is online.
[13:35] herman Bergson: But what the issue today is...
[13:35] herman Bergson: We understand the relation between molecules and atoms...
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:35] herman Bergson: th eone can be reduced to the other
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:36] Max Chatnoir: Not quite reduced.  The connection adds something.
[13:36] herman Bergson: this is however not the case between brain states and mental states
[13:36] herman Bergson: we understan brain states....
[13:36] herman Bergson: activity of neurons etc...
[13:36] Max Chatnoir: For example, going back to water...
[13:36] herman Bergson: but what are mental states?
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: water is a polar molecule.  Hydrogen isn't.  Oxygen isn't.  The polarity comes from the combination.  Don't mental states come out of the neural assembly?
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well they are not physical but stil u cant have those without tne neurins just like u cant have molecules without atoms
[13:37] herman Bergson: that is the incongruency between these two  forms of supervenience
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so its same thing still isay in that regard
[13:38] Rebecca (rebecca.rozen) is offline.
[13:38] Max Chatnoir: I'm still having trouble distinguishing between supervenience and emergence.  They do sort of feel different, but I can't put my finger on how.
[13:39] herman Bergson: as I said...emergence refers to the appearance of a NEW property
[13:39] Max Chatnoir: But isn't mind a new property?
[13:40] Anna Adamant Albion (anna.adamant) is online.
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no brain = no mind and no atoms = no molecules, i think the term supervein works on both in that regard, if i grasp the term correct
[13:40] herman Bergson: If we were pressed to give a definition of emergence, we could say that a property is emergent if it is a novel property of a system or an entity that arises when that system or entity has reached a certain level of complexity and that, even though it exists only insofar as the system or entity exists, it is distinct from its source.
[13:40] Max Chatnoir: But you can't separate it from its source.
[13:40] herman Bergson: Like a baby emerges at birth from the mother
[13:41] Max Chatnoir: I think that's a different kind of emergence.
[13:41] herman Bergson: In a situation of supervenience, the same matter just appears in another form
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: So are molecules supervenient/
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: ?
[13:43] herman Bergson: yes
[13:43] herman Bergson: the are nothing new
[13:43] herman Bergson: just another configuration of atoms
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:44] Max Chatnoir: I don't insist that supervenient and emergent be different.  I'm good with having more than one word for a particular phenomenon.
[13:44] herman Bergson: no..they are two different concepts Max
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I need to emerge now, my TURF friend is waiting outside, want to take a night roll with me
[13:45] herman Bergson: huh???
[13:45] herman Bergson: You mean you have an emergency Bejiita? :))))
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sort of
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:45] herman Bergson: Have to leave?
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well hes been out all evning and just came by
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so i have to head out
[13:46] Max Chatnoir: Have a good evening, Bejita!
[13:46] herman Bergson: Don't let him wait, Bejiita ^_^
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he is kind of impatient
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): enjoy Bejiita
[13:46] herman Bergson: give him my reagrds
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but happy weekend all
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill say hi from you
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): c ya
[13:46] Lukkie Sands: Bye Swedish adonis
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mmm hugs lukkie
[13:46] Max Chatnoir: ;-)
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:47] Lukkie Sands: He is so cute ^_^
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): don't cry Lukkie, he'll be back
[13:47] Lukkie Sands: thnx for the hankechief Beertje :-)
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): gerne:))
[13:47] bergfrau Apfelbaum: have fun Bejiita:-)
[13:48] Max Chatnoir: Is being Adonis supervenient or emergent?
[13:48] herman Bergson: ok...after wiping our tears....let's get ready for the next lecture :-)
[13:48] herman Bergson: hmmm...interesitng question Max :-)))
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hands over a hanky to Herman
[13:48] Max Chatnoir: I am eager to hear what Bard came up with"!
[13:49] herman Bergson: I'd say it is supervenient property...
[13:49] herman Bergson: No Bejiita without  Adonis and no Adonis without Bejiita
[13:49] Lukkie Sands: I agree!!!!
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oh dear
[13:50] Lukkie Sands: jealous Beertje??? :-))
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): never
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i have my own Adonis
[13:50] herman Bergson: Ok LAdies...:-)
[13:51] herman Bergson: Let's not get personal ^_^
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))
[13:51] herman Bergson: Thank you again for your participation
[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Lukkie has seen my Adonis, she knows him
[13:51] herman Bergson: Another weekend is emerging :-))
[13:52] Lukkie Sands: You mean the one with that pipe? :-)))
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no
[13:52] Lukkie Sands grins
[13:52] Lukkie Sands: All Hans on deck!!!
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins too
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahahahahhaha