Sunday, June 24, 2018

727: Let's be Pragmatic....

In the period 1900 - 1915 the philosophical landscape took shape. There was the old difference between rationalism and empiricism on the Continent.
On the rationalist bench are sitting philosophers like Edmund Husserl and Henri Bergson and on the empiricist bench we see 
Bertrand Russel and Ludwig Wittgenstein and later the Vienna Circle (Wiener Kreis).
In the United States appears a third party in the philosophical discourse: Pragmatism. Understandable in a land where so many had left behind or even fled Continental traditions.
In 1907 William James (1842 - 1910) delivered a series of lectures with the title: Pragmatism. A new way for some old ways of thinking.
James wanted to get rid of all those Continental idealist philosophical dogmas and theories 
and submit philosophy to the same empirical demands as the natural sciences.
He related the dichotomy in philosophy to personal temperaments. On the one hand you have the "softy"
Such a person is a rationalist,  reasons from principles, is optimistic, religious and dogmatic.
On the other hand you have the "realist". He is empirical, reasons from sensory experience, is non-religious, materialistic and skeptical.
On the one hand you have philosophers who start the debate with absolute assumptions, for instance absolute freedom of the will,
and from such assumptions they then deduce what one should think or do.
On the other hand you have philosophers who take the world as it is, with all its chaos,  inequality and injustice.
Empirical science is for us a rather common thing. Everything is subjected to scientific research these days. 

Many people refuse to accept  big theories about our world without scientific proof. A rather general attitude, at least among educated people.
James emphasized this dichotomy in philosophy, because he wanted to show that the world was changing, as he said:
"Never before there have been so many people with an empiricist attitude as in these days. You almost could say that our children are born as little scientists."
A pragmatist is not interested in the traditional metaphysical theories with their verbal solutions and big words like "The Absolute" or "The Truth".
You can occupy yourself with such issues, but James then asks the question: What does it bring you?"
Everything that has a real effect  or influence on the way we life, should be qualified as "Truth", according to James.
Truth isn't absolute. Things are true as long as they work in a positive sense in our life. How things work out in real life, proofs whether it is true or not.
The  pragmatist way of thinking of William James illustrates in a nice way, how people felt at the beginning of the 20th century.
So many new things were developing in natural sciences, in the industry. Most exciting in those days, for instance, was mass production of cars,
the most common thing in our days. Einstein published his first articles in those years and today we not even blink, when we discuss quantum mechanics, but it all started only a hundred years ago.

Thank you for your attention again....:-)

The Discussion

[13:18] CB Axel: I still blink at quantum mechanics. °͜°
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:18] herman Bergson: Feel free to drop a question of remark :-)
[13:18] Ciska Riverstone: me too cb hehehe
[13:18] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman
[13:19] herman Bergson: A mystery to me too CB :-))
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): norton has a question i think
[13:19] herman Bergson: But it is interesting to see how excited people were in those days about all new discoveries
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but you can build working computers with it
[13:20] herman Bergson: He said so, yes
[13:20] Norton Lykin: oh, yes, had the answer during the lecture
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eve if its way new stuff it actually works
[13:20] herman Bergson: Around 1900 a whole new world enfolded for scientists
[13:21] herman Bergson: They discovered the atom....
[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: well they have been excited with the internet too for a while ;)
[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: they still are
[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: but the "news" wore off
[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes you could compare it with how we experience the Internet Ciska....
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and now we just take it for granted
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like electricity and running water
[13:22] herman Bergson: Well...the access to so much knowledge still is amazing
[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: yes  and we use it negatively too - just as science
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly yes
[13:22] Norton Lykin: Philosophy is kind of a model or viewpoint to understand the world we are in ?
[13:23] herman Bergson: You could say that Norton, yes
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:24] herman Bergson: For William James philosophy was a part of life...
[13:24] herman Bergson: Everybody has some theory about the world he lives in
[13:24] Norton Lykin: Like for a Buddhist ?
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lots of pragmatism around these days
[13:24] herman Bergson: I agree Gemma....
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks we could not live without it in usa
[13:25] herman Bergson: The times for big metaphysical theories seem to be over
[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: well buddhism is a very empiric philosophy too
[13:25] Norton Lykin: how do you mean, empiric ?
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes indeed...but the starting point, that life is suffering ....not too attractive :-)
[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: well u are asked to experience things rather then believe it - thats empiric
[13:27] herman Bergson: But the interesting point in that is, Ciska, that we all yet start with beliefs
[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: its the basis of empiric so to speak
[13:27] herman Bergson: Or a better word might be ...'assumptions'
[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: well to put it simple - what you do not know (yet) you have to believe
[13:27] herman Bergson: One classic assumption is the existence of a reality independent of our consciousness
[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: either by believing in some sort of outer source or belief in a scientist until you understand it yourself
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:28] herman Bergson: Welll indeed...we have to believe for instance Einstein :-))
[13:29] Norton Lykin: So in essence it is a question whether it works out in the present time or not ?
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: yes or we learn and try to understand
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: heheh
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): even tho he made error
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: then we know
[13:29] herman Bergson: Good luck Ciska :-))
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: thanx
[13:29] herman Bergson: He did indeed Gemma....
[13:29] herman Bergson: So, that is science...always questioning your beliefs
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): always try to find the most logical and observable explanation
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: well in science we believe a theory until its replaced with an even better one...
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to get proof that this is reality the case
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that science
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): finding out how things really are
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:31] herman Bergson: In a sense we are pretty pragmatic these days.....
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:31] herman Bergson: If it works it is true...:-)
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: totally.
[13:31] Norton Lykin: or it is true if it works ?
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): chickens and eggs
[13:31] Norton Lykin: ^^
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:32] herman Bergson: No....
[13:32] herman Bergson: because that would imply that something already has the property of being true before we have tried it
[13:32] herman Bergson: James defined true as 'it works'
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is that always the case?
[13:34] herman Bergson: it is true IF it works makes Truth some metaphysical attribute of something
[13:34] herman Bergson: ti is a very pragmatic approach Beertje....
[13:35] herman Bergson: that something works doesn't mean it will work truth is not an absolute property
[13:35] herman Bergson: for instance in 1907 or so someone invented Bakelite...
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:35] herman Bergson: Bakelite...
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bakelite you mean?
[13:36] herman Bergson: Perfekt for isolation of electric equipment....
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah ok
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): worlds first plastic
[13:36] herman Bergson: we don't use it anymore....
[13:36] herman Bergson: it is all plastics now....
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause there are better alternatives but i think it is in use still for some applications
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bakelite can for ex only be  made in dark colors
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but very durable
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still used in high voltage insulators
[13:37] herman Bergson: maybe it is still applied indeed Bejiita...I dint know
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the knobs for litter bins we make at work
[13:38] herman Bergson: ahh
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are black so that works
[13:38] herman Bergson: so it still 'works' for some situations
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however its a setting pastic, so cant be remelted
[13:39] herman Bergson: Must have been exciting years ..around 1905
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): must have been
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and each year after
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:40] herman Bergson: in 1907 we got the mass production of the T-Ford...!
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): amazing stuff
[13:40] herman Bergson: They built 15 million of those cars...
[13:40] herman Bergson: til 1927
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): first line building
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the first production line
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:41] herman Bergson: If you never have seen something like that it must have been sensational
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a carriage without a horse!
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and that affecting  many other building
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: poor horses lost their jobs and no one cared
[13:41] herman Bergson: it changed the world....
[13:41] Norton Lykin: ^^
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) whispers: terrified most people though, a noisy fire spitting self moving beast!
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i bet they were happy
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: well I guess most of them were eaten :/
[13:42] Norton Lykin: yep
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: not sure if that made them very happy
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh gosh
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but people got used to these machines and then it really took off
[13:42] herman Bergson: ti caused the world we now live in with all its roads and so on
[13:42] CB Axel: Not only did the horses lose their jobs, but people got stuck in boring, repetitive jobs.
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but now robots make all the cars
[13:43] herman Bergson: Ahh yes indeed Bejiita....
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): huge changes in that century
[13:43] CB Axel: But Ford was able to sell many, many more cars at the expense of those boring jobs.
[13:43] CB Axel: At the expense of the people in those boring jobs.
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thank goodness for unions then
[13:43] herman Bergson: True CB....
[13:44] herman Bergson: serious changes du e to all these innovations...
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there is nothing changed today CB
[13:44] Norton Lykin: how do you mean Beertje ?
[13:44] CB Axel: Except, as Bejiita mentioned, many of those boring, repetitive jobs are now being done by robots.
[13:45] herman Bergson: People lots their jobs due to all these robots in car manufacturing
[13:45] CB Axel: And people have lost those boring, repetitive jobs for even worse ones. °͜°
[13:45] herman Bergson: Like horses lost their jobs :-)
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully they get better less boring ones,
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there are still boring jobs today
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and this will happen again due to robots in every field
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or they all ended up at mcdonalds
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no room bej
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully not
[13:46] CB Axel: A lawyer friend of mine once told me that his job would be taken over by AI before my paramedic job would be taken over by a robot.
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i would not want to have a work where all i do all days is just put the same screw in over and over day after day
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i want a job where i can do all sort of things
[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...guess we have reached a cheerful view at our future now :-)
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i have
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and really happy with it
[13:46] CB Axel: And he was right. A lot of lawyering work is now being done by AI.
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): by who CB?
[13:47] CB Axel: Writing patents, etc. (He's a intellectual property attorney)
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: because its about looking up stuff and referencing cb?
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): computers
[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes indeed CB
[13:47] CB Axel: Yes, Ciska. That too.
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: well still finding a new angle must be done by a human - no?
[13:47] herman Bergson: Well...we still have philosophy to keep us busy ^_^
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thats a good thing
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): never ending
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*yaaaaaaaay*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
[13:48] herman Bergson: But I guess it is time to take a rest now :-)
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the biggest change in the past century?
[13:48] herman Bergson: So...thank you all again for your participation....
[13:48] CB Axel: Yes. I'm going to head over to a talk with Oz and Grumpity Linden. °͜°
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wow have to think about that beertje
[13:48] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes wil y ou tp jme cb??
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh no i cant go
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): looks I'm too late with my question :))
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will get the stream
[13:49] CB Axel: Beertje, that will depend on the person.
[13:49] CB Axel: Bye, all. See you next week. I'll be less busy then. °͜°
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah yes
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa cu
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you will
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: take care cb
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye CB
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: cu around bejiita
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten beertje
[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: it was very interesting again! ty Herman Nad Class :-)
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have to run a fishing contest
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): contest even
[13:50] bergfrau Apfelbaum: #°*** BABA ***°#
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman
[13:50] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Beertje:-)

[13:50] herman Bergson: Be well you all :-)

Wednesday, June 20, 2018

726: The 20th Century has begun....

Nowadays you can barely imagine how radical the development of modernism was in the early 1900s. 
Everyone who now lives has grown up in the scientific world, many people only know life in the city, and rapid change is the only change there is. 
Only a minority still lives in close contact with the country or nature. At the beginning of the 20th century, this was all different. 
For a lot of people, the big city was still a relatively new experience. Social security systems were not there yet 
and the misery and poverty were so massive that the cities had a much more sombre look than today 
and the fundamental scientific discoveries that accompanied the new world reinforced the feeling that all old certainties had disappeared.
Probably these kinds of feelings were never as strong and widespread as before then. 
The decline of religion was but one of the elements of this landslide in the world of experience: 
the growth of nationalism, anti-Semitism and racial theories in general, and the enthusiastic embrace of modernism in art were all reactions to the same developments. 
The biggest paradox, the most terrifying transformation was this: according to the evolution theory, the natural development process proceeds with the speed of changing ice ages. 
According to modernism, everything suddenly changed, and fundamentally, almost overnight. 
So most people experienced it as much of a threat as a promise. In the beauty it offered, there was a core of horror.
More than ten years ago I already delivered a lecture with the title "Prelude to the 20th century"

The fun is that  I can repeat my words of those days, for what I was talking about was the philosophers who stood on the threshold of 1900.
What I then wanted to teach you was this...

An issue, which easily would escape our attention but which is important for understanding developments in philosophy, is psychology. 
William James reminded me of it, for he was professor of psychology and philosophy.
In 1816 Johann Friedrich Herbart published his "Lehrbuch zur Psychologie"...Text-book on Psychology. 
He was a philosopher, even lectured in Köningsberg as a successor of Immanuel Kant.  
But psychology, still a part of philosophy then, became gradually an independent science.
James, who lived from 1842 to 1910 was a contemporary of Sigmund Freund, who was only 14 years younger than James.
And today I see with a smile these two philosophers at our door...William James and Henri Bergson.
In fact we do not need to dedicate a lecture to these two, for they already were discussed ten years ago.

William James here:
and Henri Bergson here:

The Discussion

[13:41] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:42] CB Axel: And now I need to leave. I'll see you on Thursday. °͜°
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): suggestion....maybe we can ring the bell if you go too fast, instead after eacht line
[13:42] herman Bergson: Be well CB
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye CB
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu CB
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:42] herman Bergson: Good  suggestion Beertje :-)
[13:43] herman Bergson: Maybe even better...
[13:43] herman Bergson: Bell means....PAUSE
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:43] bergfrau Apfelbaum: good Idea Beertje :-)
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i can imagine that woman and men were afraid of the changes in the ealry 1900
[13:43] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i am distracted by the bell. when i read, i think about the content of the text:-)
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes a point there
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: but the idea to slow Herman down is good :-))
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes that was my point too
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:44] herman Bergson: So...the bell means...Hold on...give us a minute :-)
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:45] herman Bergson: very good...
[13:45] bergfrau Apfelbaum: or 30 seconds:-)
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or 15
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))
[13:45] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yes :-)
[13:46] herman Bergson: ok then,., that is settled :-))
[13:48] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i am also afraid of change when I think of Trump
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sad development indeed he brings
[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes Bergie....what this man is destroying....
[13:49] herman Bergson: the whole fabric of international trust
[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: he even brings evil thoughts in my head. against him .. kill and so
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): imagine that your child is taken from you to live behind bars
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it gives me shivers
[13:49] herman Bergson: Beertje that is beyond debate....
[13:50] herman Bergson: that this happens in a civilized country like the US...unbelievable
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agree
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): trump is a monster
[13:51] herman Bergson: And they justify it by quoting Paul, Roman 13
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the US isn't civilized anymore
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its just who have the most money
[13:51] herman Bergson: I agree Beertje..
[13:51] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita...
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Fuck money, be nice i say
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is true status
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least what i connect to it, someone to look up to and like
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what will happen next to the world?
[13:53] herman Bergson: It is becoming a sad story...
[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes, my question too Beertje
[13:54] herman Bergson: thing....
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there is another Kennedy to start up campagne
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): moving backward, not forward
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe he can save the situation
[13:54] herman Bergson: China will not give in in this trade tariffs war....
[13:54] herman Bergson: It will fight to get the US to its knees
[13:55] herman Bergson: that is my opinion
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes a North Korea too
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Japan too
[13:55] herman Bergson: To loose face is an impossibility for a Chinese
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) is online.
[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: next might be that the better educated us folks leave the country...
[13:56] herman Bergson: where to Ciska?
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Europa?
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Australië?
[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: wherever
[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: but I expect that to happen any time soon
[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: maybe gb
[13:57] Quistis Shippe is offline.
[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: and maybe they will be happy about it
[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: it might be what the brits need right now
[13:58] herman Bergson: A brain drain....
[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: highly educated folks
[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: to get through their euro crises
[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): without money no one can leave the us
[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: its thought to be a scientist in the usa atm
[13:59] herman Bergson: interesting moment in history now...
[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: well the question is if  gb sees that potential
[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: and does something with it
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: totally herman
[13:59] herman Bergson: Will Trump survive another 12 months???
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes and more :((
[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: the problem is
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (horrible thought)
[13:59] herman Bergson: My bet is.....NO
[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: the other guy is even worse
[13:59] herman Bergson: doesn't matter
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): which other guy?
[14:00] herman Bergson: Pence
[14:00] herman Bergson: Vice president...
[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: yes - I always put the name out of my consciousness instantly
[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: the only good thing about him might be
[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: that he is easily controlled
[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: the question is only
[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: who will control him
[14:00] herman Bergson: But don't worry....he is easier to control by the system...
[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: (apart from his wife)
[14:01] Ciska Riverstone: same thought Herman
[14:01] herman Bergson: he isnt such ego centric narcist like Trump
[14:01] Ciska Riverstone: no of course not
[14:01] herman Bergson: he is closer to a human being
[14:01] Ciska Riverstone: he is the co-dependent part
[14:01] Ciska Riverstone: but that means that he is easily controlled yes
[14:02] Ciska Riverstone: so psychologically an interesting situation if it would not be in the white house
[14:02] Ciska Riverstone: with tons of lives on stake
[14:02] herman Bergson: yes
[14:02] Quistis Shippe is online.
[14:02] herman Bergson: So keep your fingers crossed...and I'll dismiss class :-)
[14:03] herman Bergson: Thank you all again..:-)
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

Friday, June 15, 2018

725: Not only Science changes the World....

When we ask the question, what in the 20th century shaped our world as it is now, an obvious answer might be the growth of knowledge, science.
But there is more, of course. Also philosophy played its part. I only need to mention Ayn Rand and present day neo-liberalism, or Karl Marx and socialism.
But throughout the 19th century, religions, and especially Christianity, were also confronted with all kinds of scientific discoveries that were contrary to the biblical view of the universe.
Here we'll focus on the Catholic Church, because contrary to protestants, who are much diverse, it is a centralized, hierarchical  and politically involved organisation.
Early 1900s many of the younger clergy urged the Vatican to respond to all new developments and discoveries in science. 
The traditionalists, in turn, felt that the church had to talk away the discoveries to restore the ancient truths. 
The debate between the two groups, modernists and traditionalists, threatened to lead to profound discord.
If you think, that the debate, that started under pope Pius X based on his encyclical "Pascendi dominici gregis" ('Feed the Lord's Flock') (1907), has ended, you are mistaken.
The debate lasts still till this very day and the modernists have lost almost every battle. 
There was a glimpse of hope for them under pope John XXIII, who organized the Second Vatican Council in 1962.
He died however in 1963, which was the moment for the traditionalists to resume their attack on the modernists.
If I only speak for the situation in the Netherlands, the victory of the traditionalists has resulted in a complete decay of the Catholic church here.
Churches are closing by the dozen. Only elder people of 65  and older fill the benches. There is an enormous shortage of priests and this process of decay still continues.
If you want to follow the battle, this is exemplary: 
"Pascendi dominici gregis" enjoined a compulsory anti-modernist oath, introduced on 1 September 1910, which obliged all Catholic bishops, priests and teachers
to come to clear terms with what they believed; this oath remained in force until Pope Paul VI abolished it in 1967.
When the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, under the authority of Pope John Paul II,
mandated the use of a new Oath of Fidelity in 1989, some theologians labeled it as a new kind of anti-modernist oath.
Now, what was this modernism like? What was against the traditional dogma of the church?
To begin with a rationalistic approach to the Bible. The rationalism that was characteristic of the Enlightenment took a protomaterialistic view of miracles and of the historicity of biblical narratives. 
Secondly secularism and other Enlightenment ideals. The ideal of secularism can be briefly stated as follows: 

the best course of action in politics and other civic fields is that which flows from a common understanding of the Good by various groups and religions. 
By implication, Church and State should be separated and the laws of the latter should cover only the common ground of thought systems held by various (non-) religious groups
Thirdly modern philosophical systems. Philosophers such as Kant and Bergson inspired the mainstream of modernist thought.
Bergon's book "L'évolution créatrice" (1907) was even placed on the Index of forbidden books for catholics.
What pope Pius X started in 1907 has resulted in a marginalization of a formerly influential and powerful social organization.
As a final observation, we see the same debate in Islam, which also has deep roots in the 1900s.
Thank you for your attention... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: To put it bluntly....the church has removed itself from society by denying science
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they are afraid to loose power
[13:18] CB Axel: It seems like the church wants to stop people from thinking, which is impossible.
[13:19] herman Bergson: Like Trump is removing the US from world politics
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): almighty Trump:)
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:19] herman Bergson: I really don't understand the power of these traditionalists....and what they are aiming at
[13:20] CB Axel: Trump is trying to remove the US from democracy and other democracies.
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its all about power indeed
[13:20] herman Bergson: Looks like it, yes
[13:20] CB Axel: They are aiming at controlling their power and wealth.
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): catholics are called 'sheep' and they have to follow the leader
[13:20] CB Axel: Hi, Gemma.
[13:20] herman Bergson: Hi Gemma
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): made it
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): missed the class tho i guess
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hi Gemma:)
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): brainwash people to believe in something that dont actually exist so they can keep power over them
[13:21] Yvette Kip (yvettekip): hello Gemma
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats what religion is in general today
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hi there
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi Gemma
[13:21] CB Axel: True, Beertje, but it used to be that the people were sheep who needed a kind shepherd to protect them.
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): since there is so much science today that can be the only reason any religion still exists
[[13:22] herman Bergson: I have no explanation for this attitude of the Catholic church.....
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): control and oppression to gain power over others
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): by denying actual facts
[13:22] CB Axel: Yes, Bejiita, but then they would lose their power and wealth.
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes and they don't want that
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's a woman unfriendly institute
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): as all religions are
[13:23] herman Bergson: Well...Beertje to give you an example.....
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly yes, its from religion this view come
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least mostly
[13:23] CB Axel: Are all religions anti-women?
[13:23] herman Bergson: since the 70s women were allowed to become pastoral worker...
[13:23] herman Bergson: They are all removed from their jobs
[13:23] herman Bergson: Hi Ciska :-)
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ciska
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why? were they too good?
[13:24] Ciska Riverstone whispers: sorry for being so late
[13:24] CB Axel: I don't know enough about, say, Hindus or Sikhs to know if they are anti-women.
[13:24] Ciska Riverstone whispers: hello everyone
[13:24] CB Axel: Hi, Ciska.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi CIska
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hihi i just got here too
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hallo Ciska
[13:24] Yvette Kip (yvettekip): hi Ciska
[13:24] herman Bergson: well...if you hear about the group rapes in India by Hindus....
[13:25] CB Axel: Yeah. :(
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, its hard to believe nowadays they created karma sutra, the love bible
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i guess this is a recent problem
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and what an awful one it is :(
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dont know to much about India however
[13:26] CB Axel: Is that a religious thing or a societal thing that Hindu leaders would condemn?
[13:26] herman Bergson: The issue of today is that science collides with religious beleifs and that the response of Rome caused the decay of the Catholic church in (Northern) Europe
[13:27] CB Axel: right
[13:27] herman Bergson: I don't know, CB
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is what a religious thing cb?
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the rapes?
[13:27] CB Axel: Yes
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they are condemned
[13:28] CB Axel: The Catholic Church has been losing significance since Copernicus. °͜°
[13:28] herman Bergson: too much negative publicity for the country
[13:29] CB Axel: And negative publicity is the only reason the rapes are condemned?
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nono
[13:29] herman Bergson: To some extend indeed, but I guess that Pius X in 1907 showed everyone the way down :-)
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why didi he do that?
[13:29] herman Bergson: I hope not, CB!
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): google it
[13:30] herman Bergson: Good question Beertje....why is a conservative a conservative, while he is surrounded by progressive ideas
[13:30] CB Axel: Fear?
[13:30] CB Axel: Fear of the unknown?
[13:30] herman Bergson: personal interests?
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): remember i sent an article showing that the brains of conservative and  progressive are different
[13:31] herman Bergson: Reputation?
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the brain itself
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they view life differently
[13:31] herman Bergson: That ios a chicken or egg question....
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): scientific reality
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he never learned to think for himself I guess
[13:31] herman Bergson: till 24  years old the brain grows....
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Pius x was a very holy man and believed fully in the biblical sense of life
[13:32] herman Bergson: so by adhering to conservative ideas picked up in education...did that shape the brain?
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): at that time
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he was a teddy bear
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): HAHAA
[13:32] herman Bergson: or had the brain a shape that was only fit for conservative ideas?
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no it is part of the brain that reacts differently
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he was surrounded in men in black dresses, who told him what he has to tell us
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): size of that part
[13:33] herman Bergson: send the URL of that article again if you can Gemma...
[13:33] CB Axel: But was the size of that part of the brain affected by the person's upbringing?
[13:34] herman Bergson: Wonder how they did the research
[13:34] CB Axel: While the brain was being developed as a child.
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here
[13:34] CB Axel: Maybe even before birth.
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:34] herman Bergson: that is waht I mean....chicken first or egg first?
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): read that bejiita
[13:35] herman Bergson: Thanks Gemma ! :-)
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa checking it now
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there is a video audio at the bottom too
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is only one of the studies
[13:36] herman Bergson: We have to bread this out of our population then , Gemma :-)
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): conservatives have basically a fear of change
[13:36] CB Axel: That's very interesting. My parents are both conservatives. Both my brothers tend to vote Republican, but my sister and I are both very liberal. It would be interesting to go back in time and watch our brains develop over time.
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats also what conservative means
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): resist changes
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and people do change too
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): my dad was a diehard conservative
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but wow did he change
[13:37] CB Axel: Yes, my older brother has become more liberal over time. My younger brother has become more conservative.
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): how it happens
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my grandmother was very liberal, she told me to have the pill nomather what the church said
[13:37] CB Axel: What made him change, Gemma?
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now this pope is not liked by the conservative clergy
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that was in 1965
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is viewed by too liberal
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as too liberal that is
[13:38] herman Bergson: indeed Gemma
[13:38] CB Axel: I think I'd like your grandmother, Beertje. °͜°
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with is why I like him
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)) i like her too
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is a scientist by training
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sees science as the others dont
[13:38] CB Axel: I like this pope better than most, too.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why do you like a pope?
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): however that could be not good for the next choice for pope
[13:39] herman Bergson: Mut he represents a minority in his company
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): depending on the number of conservatives that will vote
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause this one is not as gay and woman opressive for once wich the one before was a lot i think
[13:39] CB Axel: The current pope was trained as a scientist. I think he also can see how the Church is declining in significance and would like to change that.
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: I truly think that while there are  a lot of "to be born with structures" in the brain the mess starts to become more difficult when people aren't allowed to learn to work with their emotions but instead push them down at a very young age
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): exactly
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to use religion to support oppressive hateful ideas like this is not something i like
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what changed my father was seeing those apposing unions
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but this pope now have actually said some really good things
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): adn social security
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: conservatives mostly are quirky with their own emotions
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: right - they often are social insecure
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not sure they are too emotional at all
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: so they need to hold on to rules
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is he friendly for woman?
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nto toward other humans
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes he is
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or is everything still the same?
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: (this pope mentioned that the catholic church needs another luther more then once?)
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): big difference id say
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: (-?+!)
[13:42] herman Bergson: I dont think he can save the sinking ship
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): when the catholic Italians arrived in the usa they were hated
[13:42] herman Bergson: in Europe
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for the Catholicism
[13:42] herman Bergson: Obviously....
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it will take a long time for the catholic church to sink herman
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a long time
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): has survived over 2000 years
[13:43] herman Bergson: I know, for it still lives on in other continents
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in all parts of the world in all persecutions
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): drill some holes in it, then it will sink faster
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and it is growing in Africa too
[13:43] Yvette Kip (yvettekip): in europe islam will take over
[13:43] CB Axel: Many people were against JFK because he was Catholic. It was thought the Pope would run the country through him.
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i  doubt it Yvette
[13:44] herman Bergson: I dont believe so too Yvette :-)
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here i think the evangelical church is way more dangerous to society
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the usa
[13:44] CB Axel: I agree
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): look how they are backing trump!!
[13:44] herman Bergson: I saw soem explanation.....
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: why gemma ?  cb? what do they do?
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): unbelievable
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: ah ok
[13:44] herman Bergson: 81% of the WHITE evangelicals voted for Trump
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they vote!!!!!!!!!!
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): always
[13:45] CB Axel: They are anti-everything. Anti-women. Anti-gays.
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and many are filthy rich
[13:45] herman Bergson: 78% of the Black evangelicals did not vote for Trump
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): anto science
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: no the question to stop is  - is what are they offering what is not offered outside of it
[13:45] CB Axel: The only thing they are for are guns.
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just like trump
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they are different
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and he like guns too
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a guns religion
[13:45] CB Axel: That's a good point, Ciska.
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:46] CB Axel: What are people getting from their religions that the government can give them?
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope in after life
[13:46] CB Axel: Unfortunately, I think what they are getting is stability.
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope in ral life
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): real life
[13:46] CB Axel: They get the world they way they want it.
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they flee from reality
[13:46] herman Bergson: you mean 'can not give' CB?
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): belief in that
[13:47] CB Axel: No. What can the government give them that they now get from the church?
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they don't want much government
[13:47] herman Bergson: Food
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: one answer might be some sort of validation and  "control of others" and if not that then "to be right"
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nono
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): government should be local!!!
[13:48] CB Axel: The government can't promise them that the world isn't going to change.
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: yes gemma thats one I agree
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): only armies by the feds
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): otherwise build your own roads
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: true cb - it can't but it does
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): national parks have to go
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): social security should go
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): health ins should be private
[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes God will take care of you...
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): easy said...
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no taxes
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is what they want
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed just look what the slogan of USA is
[13:49] herman Bergson: and isnt there the belief, that you are rich in the US because it is Gods will???
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): In God we trust
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that says something
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sort of
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): about how politics and religion are way to mixed into each other
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): really bad thing
[13:50] herman Bergson: And that people voted for Trump BECAUSE he is in the grace of the Lord???
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and our country should not even think of that
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): separation of church and state prime belief
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): of the founders
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): however
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to mix religion and politics is to base the laws and control of a nation on nonsense and hocus pokes
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nonsense
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): instead of facts
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is such a creep... the latest he used his so called charity foundation money to settle laew suite
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): law suits
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats why it can go really bad
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the latest
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): should never be mixed
[13:52] herman Bergson: I disagree Bejiita....
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but shouldn't politics always be fact based
[13:52] CB Axel: I agree, Bejiita, but just try and tell a religious person that you don't think laws should be based on their book of fairy tales. Boy, do they get angry! LOL
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ?
[13:52] herman Bergson: Laws should be based on a consensus between all partisipants, whatever they believe in
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that i can imagine
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that they will get
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): tricky stuff it is
[13:53] herman Bergson: otherwise you get a state that dictates what beliefs are acceptable and which not
[13:54] herman Bergson: That is the axe on the roots of democracy
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that can be an issue too i guess
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah well
[13:54] herman Bergson: Inndeed Gemma.....
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and  this discussion goes on
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for ever
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:54] herman Bergson: I guess we have saved the world once and again today :-))
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully a bit at least
[13:55] herman Bergson: so time to dismiss class :-)
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:55] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman. Good discussion!
[13:55] Yvette Kip (yvettekip): thank you Herman
[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation....
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu around next time all
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman thanx everyone
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sl15 bd starts sunday
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman