Sunday, June 10, 2018

722: Friedrich Nietzsche at the Door...

August 25, 1900 Friedrich Nietzsche died, but that was only the person. His ideas had a great influence in the 20th century and thus shaped our history.
After his death, Elisabeth Förster-Nietzsche (1846 - 1935), became the curator and editor of her brother's manuscripts. 
She reworked Nietzsche's unpublished writings to fit her own German nationalist ideology while often contradicting 
or obfuscating Nietzsche's stated opinions, which were explicitly opposed to antisemitism and nationalism. 
Through her published editions, Nietzsche's work became associated with fascism and Nazism; 
20th century scholars contested this interpretation of his work and corrected editions of his writings were soon made available. Nietzsche's philosophy enjoyed renewed popularity in the 1960s.
What was politically sensitive or too controversial, she kept behind. But what she did publish was still controversial enough. 
His philosophical ideas was, even though Nietzsche had been anything but systematic, that all history had to be seen as a metaphysical struggle between two groups. 
On the one hand there were those with the 'Wille zur Macht', (The Will to Power), that is with the necessary vitality to create the dominant values.
On the other side were those who lacked that will, where Nietzsche mostly was thinking of the masses that had risen with democracy. 
"Those who are weak in life, impoverish the culture," he wrote, "those who are strong in life enrich her." 
According to him, all civilization was due to the predators whose willpower and drive of power were still unbroken, 
who threw themselves on the weaker, more civilized, more peaceful races ... on mature, ancient cultures, of which even the last vitality disappears in corruption.
He called the predators Arians. They would become the ruling class or caste, and: "the noble caste is always a barbaric caste.", he wrote.
Simply because they were more vital and more energetic, Nietzsche thought, they were more complete people than the biblical civilized, they would submit. 
The energetic nobles spontaneously create the values for themselves and for the rest of society.
The 'aristocratic class', he said, gives the definitions of good and bad, honor and duty, true or false, beautiful or ugly, and as conqueror it puts these views on the vanquished. 
He believed that nature wanted it that way. However, morality is invented by the lower classes. 
It would come from resentment and feed the virtues of the herd animals. For Nietzsche 'morality denies life'. 
The moralistic, contrived civilization or "Western man" would inevitably lead to the end of humanity. 
That Nietzsche's philosophy was extremely influential, cannot be denied. Last but not least, it seemed so beautifully in tune with Darwin's theory of evolution, published in 1859. 
Nietzsches Übermensch (Overman), lord and master of the lower classes, indeed sounds like the theory of evolution: 
the natural selection, or the law of the jungle, ensures the survival of the fittest in the interest of all mankind, regardless of the consequences for certain individuals. 
But this argument goes wrong, of course, for after all, the 'fittest test' means something completely different from the ability to lead, to create values, and to impose your will on others. 
In the theory of evolution, the fittest are the ones who produce the most progeny, who maintain their own kind. 
Many social Darwinists made that mistake. The biological theory in Darwin's "On the Origin of Species" was soon used as an explanatory model for society.
With the strong anti-semitism in mind which we already encountered in Vienna (1900 - 1910), where Hitler walked around in those days,
we all know how the misinterpretation of Nietzsche and Darwin was used in the 20th century.
Thank you for your attention... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:19] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:19] Ciska Riverstone: so - would Nietzsche been happy about trump then? ;)
[13:19] herman Bergson: there still is the belief in White supremacy
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:20] CB Axel: So Nietzsche felt that people with morals are weak and destined to die out?
[13:20] herman Bergson: Good question Ciska......
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sounds like he would be a supporter of both greed and barbarism but indeed thats not the ones who survive
[13:20] CB Axel: It seems like the world, or at least the US, is heading that way.
[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes morality was invented by the weak....christianity in particular...
[13:20] Ciska Riverstone: (well lets not forget he died mad and had to be nursed by his sister)
[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: (which might be a direct consequence of believing his own philosophy)
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe he lived mad too
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well surely I don't support his ideas
[13:22] herman Bergson: More even....a lot he wrote was when he already was in a second stage of syphilis detoriation...
[13:22] CB Axel: So much for the meek inheriting the earth
[13:22] CB Axel: Ha! I thought he died of syphilis.
[13:22] CB Axel: Serves him right.
[13:22] herman Bergson: When Trump yells America first....I am convinced he means White America first
[13:23] CB Axel: Of course he does.
[13:23] herman Bergson: He died of it indeed CB
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i guess they believed things like that then, if Nietzsches ideas in turn lead to the Nazism and holocaust its a really bad thing
[13:23] CB Axel: And, actually, he means Trump first.
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if thats was what he actually believed in
[13:24] herman Bergson: Nietzsches ideas did not lead to nazism.....
[13:24] herman Bergson: don't forget how anti-semitic Vienna already was
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess it had started way before that
[13:24] herman Bergson: anfd how they believed in  a superior race....
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): need to check a bit more on this
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a sad part of the history thats for sure
[13:25] herman Bergson: Nietzsche lived  within that context.....
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he got pulled along i guess
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like lot of others
[13:26] herman Bergson: Our problem with the way we look at history is, that we focus on individuals....
[13:26] herman Bergson: but these individuals did not live and think in a vacuum....
[13:26] herman Bergson: they lived in a cultural context...
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the situation today compare to the days of Nietzsche?
[13:27] herman Bergson: Nietzsche was just better in expressing the ideas that lived in those days and added his own originality to it, I'd say
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:27] herman Bergson: What did we take with us from the 20th century, Beertje?
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:28] herman Bergson: Good question....
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: are u going to talk about him too?
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: from has some nice answers to that
[13:28] herman Bergson: The idea of the strong leader is still vivid....
[13:29] herman Bergson: the idea that an elite is in fact the ruling class....
[13:29] herman Bergson: Deep State is the new concept
[13:30] herman Bergson: Islamic extremism is mainly a war against White Supremacy, Western culture
[13:31] CB Axel: Elite what? Elite rich but morally bereft and bellicose idiot or elite educated individual?
[13:31] herman Bergson: And we believe that we are the better kind on this planet, I guess
[13:31] herman Bergson: no no CB....not the educated individual
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): elite= thinking they are better then all others and can just trample them down i guess
[13:32] herman Bergson: Like Nietzsche said, Bejiita.....
[13:32] CB Axel: In the US, many people feel that the "elite" are over-educated like Obama.
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is there money involved with the elite?
[13:32] CB Axel: Intellectuals.
[13:32] herman Bergson: Totally Beertje
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well elite goes together with greedy bastards in my view
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): who have 98% of the worlds money
[13:33] CB Axel: It's different here in the US.
[13:33] herman Bergson: In what way CB?
[13:35] CB Axel: Elites are considered to be educated but weak. The Trump voters believe they are "down to earth" when all they are are ignorant morons who believe that might makes right.
[13:35] CB Axel: The definition of elite has changed.
[13:35] herman Bergson: That is what is called populism here......
[13:36] CB Axel: I agree with you that the "elite" are supposed to be the best at something, but here elite is more like "privileged" and in an ivory tower.
[13:36] CB Axel: Not the masses
[13:37] herman Bergson: Well, the elite are here too the people with money, not the intellectuals
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very true
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the few lucky who think they can use everyone else as they like cause in their eyes they are worth shit
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): money and power don't give you rights to do this
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats what many of these think
[13:38] Tooyaa (thuja.hynes) is online.
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: the problem is that the real elite in the said you said CB has submitted to some bullies leading the elite and that did lead to a totally crazy distribution of income which made the simple folks feel they can no longer relay and trust the elite
[13:38] herman Bergson: is power
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and hence so many wars and poor people in the world
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no nice situation for sure , it jtse lead to conflicts
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just
[13:39] CB Axel: It has nothing to do with wealth. People equate elite with over educated and liberal.
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: so those folks voted for their own trusted man who is as stupid as them - which makes them feel like theyknow them and can trust
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: thats totally nuts of course
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like how they did with trump?
[13:40] CB Axel: I've always thought of elite as being the best at whatever they do, but that's not the way people use that word any more.
[13:40] herman Bergson: No...the rich are the elite these is the elite
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: yes true cb - but that really roots in the real elite not caring so much by whom they were lead as long as they had their income and could do what they want
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed elite used to be a good word before i guess but the word elite to me is since long = selfish ego
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: the social component did miss
[13:41] CB Axel: I think that a lot of people voted for Trump because they treat elections like a reality show.
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: more in the usa
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: then here
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: but here too
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the word ace is hat was synonymous with elite before i guess
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ace to me is someone really good at anything
[13:42] CB Axel: Trump is not considered part of the "elite" here. He's considered a "man of the people," which, of course, is bullshit.
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: they voted for trump because they did not trust in the "other elite" any more.
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ~Never argue with an idiot, they'll take you to their level then beat you with experience~
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well thats a part of it too
[13:42] herman Bergson: Same happened in Italy
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: yes
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: italy same thing
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaw yes
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: its like the mass of the people who are really struggling says
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: ok if you do not do whats in our intrest
[13:43] herman Bergson: We too have a party who is against the establishment......
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: we kill your system
[13:43] CB Axel: Another reason people like Trump is that he promised to get rid of politicians and "drain the swamp."
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: yes  -he promised to make the big ones small
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: which of course is crap ;)
[13:43] CB Axel: But all he's doing is replacing the corrupt politicians with even more corrupt business men.
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: yes
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agree cb,
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems very much like another elite game
[13:44] herman Bergson: amazing indeed....and they still let him do it
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: and that was sort of foreseeable if u were not a trump  voter
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause he folled them, like hitler fooled everyone when he came to power
[13:44] Ladyy Haven (ladyy.haven) is offline.
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that he was a good guy
[13:44] CB Axel: I like what Beertje said earlier:  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ~Never argue with an idiot, they'll take you to their level then beat you with experience~
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when he was actually evil himself
[13:45] CB Axel: Very foreseeable, Ciska.
[13:45] herman Bergson: Beertje has the age to vent such a wisdom :-)
[13:45] CB Axel: °͜°
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone:
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:46] herman Bergson: So let's savour her wise words and conclude our discussion :-)
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: heeheh thanx herman
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:46] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation....
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki cu next time
[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))) dankjewel Herman

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