Friday, June 15, 2018

725: Not only Science changes the World....

When we ask the question, what in the 20th century shaped our world as it is now, an obvious answer might be the growth of knowledge, science.
But there is more, of course. Also philosophy played its part. I only need to mention Ayn Rand and present day neo-liberalism, or Karl Marx and socialism.
But throughout the 19th century, religions, and especially Christianity, were also confronted with all kinds of scientific discoveries that were contrary to the biblical view of the universe.
Here we'll focus on the Catholic Church, because contrary to protestants, who are much diverse, it is a centralized, hierarchical  and politically involved organisation.
Early 1900s many of the younger clergy urged the Vatican to respond to all new developments and discoveries in science. 
The traditionalists, in turn, felt that the church had to talk away the discoveries to restore the ancient truths. 
The debate between the two groups, modernists and traditionalists, threatened to lead to profound discord.
If you think, that the debate, that started under pope Pius X based on his encyclical "Pascendi dominici gregis" ('Feed the Lord's Flock') (1907), has ended, you are mistaken.
The debate lasts still till this very day and the modernists have lost almost every battle. 
There was a glimpse of hope for them under pope John XXIII, who organized the Second Vatican Council in 1962.
He died however in 1963, which was the moment for the traditionalists to resume their attack on the modernists.
If I only speak for the situation in the Netherlands, the victory of the traditionalists has resulted in a complete decay of the Catholic church here.
Churches are closing by the dozen. Only elder people of 65  and older fill the benches. There is an enormous shortage of priests and this process of decay still continues.
If you want to follow the battle, this is exemplary: 
"Pascendi dominici gregis" enjoined a compulsory anti-modernist oath, introduced on 1 September 1910, which obliged all Catholic bishops, priests and teachers
to come to clear terms with what they believed; this oath remained in force until Pope Paul VI abolished it in 1967.
When the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, under the authority of Pope John Paul II,
mandated the use of a new Oath of Fidelity in 1989, some theologians labeled it as a new kind of anti-modernist oath.
Now, what was this modernism like? What was against the traditional dogma of the church?
To begin with a rationalistic approach to the Bible. The rationalism that was characteristic of the Enlightenment took a protomaterialistic view of miracles and of the historicity of biblical narratives. 
Secondly secularism and other Enlightenment ideals. The ideal of secularism can be briefly stated as follows: 

the best course of action in politics and other civic fields is that which flows from a common understanding of the Good by various groups and religions. 
By implication, Church and State should be separated and the laws of the latter should cover only the common ground of thought systems held by various (non-) religious groups
Thirdly modern philosophical systems. Philosophers such as Kant and Bergson inspired the mainstream of modernist thought.
Bergon's book "L'évolution créatrice" (1907) was even placed on the Index of forbidden books for catholics.
What pope Pius X started in 1907 has resulted in a marginalization of a formerly influential and powerful social organization.
As a final observation, we see the same debate in Islam, which also has deep roots in the 1900s.
Thank you for your attention... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: To put it bluntly....the church has removed itself from society by denying science
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they are afraid to loose power
[13:18] CB Axel: It seems like the church wants to stop people from thinking, which is impossible.
[13:19] herman Bergson: Like Trump is removing the US from world politics
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): almighty Trump:)
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:19] herman Bergson: I really don't understand the power of these traditionalists....and what they are aiming at
[13:20] CB Axel: Trump is trying to remove the US from democracy and other democracies.
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its all about power indeed
[13:20] herman Bergson: Looks like it, yes
[13:20] CB Axel: They are aiming at controlling their power and wealth.
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): catholics are called 'sheep' and they have to follow the leader
[13:20] CB Axel: Hi, Gemma.
[13:20] herman Bergson: Hi Gemma
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): made it
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): missed the class tho i guess
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hi Gemma:)
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): brainwash people to believe in something that dont actually exist so they can keep power over them
[13:21] Yvette Kip (yvettekip): hello Gemma
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats what religion is in general today
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hi there
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi Gemma
[13:21] CB Axel: True, Beertje, but it used to be that the people were sheep who needed a kind shepherd to protect them.
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): since there is so much science today that can be the only reason any religion still exists
[[13:22] herman Bergson: I have no explanation for this attitude of the Catholic church.....
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): control and oppression to gain power over others
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): by denying actual facts
[13:22] CB Axel: Yes, Bejiita, but then they would lose their power and wealth.
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes and they don't want that
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's a woman unfriendly institute
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): as all religions are
[13:23] herman Bergson: Well...Beertje to give you an example.....
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly yes, its from religion this view come
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least mostly
[13:23] CB Axel: Are all religions anti-women?
[13:23] herman Bergson: since the 70s women were allowed to become pastoral worker...
[13:23] herman Bergson: They are all removed from their jobs
[13:23] herman Bergson: Hi Ciska :-)
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ciska
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why? were they too good?
[13:24] Ciska Riverstone whispers: sorry for being so late
[13:24] CB Axel: I don't know enough about, say, Hindus or Sikhs to know if they are anti-women.
[13:24] Ciska Riverstone whispers: hello everyone
[13:24] CB Axel: Hi, Ciska.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi CIska
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hihi i just got here too
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hallo Ciska
[13:24] Yvette Kip (yvettekip): hi Ciska
[13:24] herman Bergson: well...if you hear about the group rapes in India by Hindus....
[13:25] CB Axel: Yeah. :(
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, its hard to believe nowadays they created karma sutra, the love bible
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i guess this is a recent problem
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and what an awful one it is :(
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dont know to much about India however
[13:26] CB Axel: Is that a religious thing or a societal thing that Hindu leaders would condemn?
[13:26] herman Bergson: The issue of today is that science collides with religious beleifs and that the response of Rome caused the decay of the Catholic church in (Northern) Europe
[13:27] CB Axel: right
[13:27] herman Bergson: I don't know, CB
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is what a religious thing cb?
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the rapes?
[13:27] CB Axel: Yes
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they are condemned
[13:28] CB Axel: The Catholic Church has been losing significance since Copernicus. °͜°
[13:28] herman Bergson: too much negative publicity for the country
[13:29] CB Axel: And negative publicity is the only reason the rapes are condemned?
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nono
[13:29] herman Bergson: To some extend indeed, but I guess that Pius X in 1907 showed everyone the way down :-)
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why didi he do that?
[13:29] herman Bergson: I hope not, CB!
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): google it
[13:30] herman Bergson: Good question Beertje....why is a conservative a conservative, while he is surrounded by progressive ideas
[13:30] CB Axel: Fear?
[13:30] CB Axel: Fear of the unknown?
[13:30] herman Bergson: personal interests?
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): remember i sent an article showing that the brains of conservative and  progressive are different
[13:31] herman Bergson: Reputation?
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the brain itself
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they view life differently
[13:31] herman Bergson: That ios a chicken or egg question....
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): scientific reality
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he never learned to think for himself I guess
[13:31] herman Bergson: till 24  years old the brain grows....
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Pius x was a very holy man and believed fully in the biblical sense of life
[13:32] herman Bergson: so by adhering to conservative ideas picked up in education...did that shape the brain?
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): at that time
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he was a teddy bear
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): HAHAA
[13:32] herman Bergson: or had the brain a shape that was only fit for conservative ideas?
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no it is part of the brain that reacts differently
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he was surrounded in men in black dresses, who told him what he has to tell us
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): size of that part
[13:33] herman Bergson: send the URL of that article again if you can Gemma...
[13:33] CB Axel: But was the size of that part of the brain affected by the person's upbringing?
[13:34] herman Bergson: Wonder how they did the research
[13:34] CB Axel: While the brain was being developed as a child.
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here
[13:34] CB Axel: Maybe even before birth.
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:34] herman Bergson: that is waht I mean....chicken first or egg first?
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): read that bejiita
[13:35] herman Bergson: Thanks Gemma ! :-)
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa checking it now
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there is a video audio at the bottom too
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is only one of the studies
[13:36] herman Bergson: We have to bread this out of our population then , Gemma :-)
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): conservatives have basically a fear of change
[13:36] CB Axel: That's very interesting. My parents are both conservatives. Both my brothers tend to vote Republican, but my sister and I are both very liberal. It would be interesting to go back in time and watch our brains develop over time.
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats also what conservative means
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): resist changes
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and people do change too
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): my dad was a diehard conservative
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but wow did he change
[13:37] CB Axel: Yes, my older brother has become more liberal over time. My younger brother has become more conservative.
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): how it happens
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my grandmother was very liberal, she told me to have the pill nomather what the church said
[13:37] CB Axel: What made him change, Gemma?
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now this pope is not liked by the conservative clergy
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that was in 1965
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is viewed by too liberal
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as too liberal that is
[13:38] herman Bergson: indeed Gemma
[13:38] CB Axel: I think I'd like your grandmother, Beertje. °͜°
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with is why I like him
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)) i like her too
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is a scientist by training
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sees science as the others dont
[13:38] CB Axel: I like this pope better than most, too.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why do you like a pope?
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): however that could be not good for the next choice for pope
[13:39] herman Bergson: Mut he represents a minority in his company
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): depending on the number of conservatives that will vote
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause this one is not as gay and woman opressive for once wich the one before was a lot i think
[13:39] CB Axel: The current pope was trained as a scientist. I think he also can see how the Church is declining in significance and would like to change that.
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: I truly think that while there are  a lot of "to be born with structures" in the brain the mess starts to become more difficult when people aren't allowed to learn to work with their emotions but instead push them down at a very young age
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): exactly
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to use religion to support oppressive hateful ideas like this is not something i like
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what changed my father was seeing those apposing unions
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but this pope now have actually said some really good things
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): adn social security
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: conservatives mostly are quirky with their own emotions
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: right - they often are social insecure
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not sure they are too emotional at all
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: so they need to hold on to rules
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is he friendly for woman?
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nto toward other humans
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes he is
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or is everything still the same?
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: (this pope mentioned that the catholic church needs another luther more then once?)
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): big difference id say
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: (-?+!)
[13:42] herman Bergson: I dont think he can save the sinking ship
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): when the catholic Italians arrived in the usa they were hated
[13:42] herman Bergson: in Europe
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for the Catholicism
[13:42] herman Bergson: Obviously....
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it will take a long time for the catholic church to sink herman
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a long time
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): has survived over 2000 years
[13:43] herman Bergson: I know, for it still lives on in other continents
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in all parts of the world in all persecutions
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): drill some holes in it, then it will sink faster
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and it is growing in Africa too
[13:43] Yvette Kip (yvettekip): in europe islam will take over
[13:43] CB Axel: Many people were against JFK because he was Catholic. It was thought the Pope would run the country through him.
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i  doubt it Yvette
[13:44] herman Bergson: I dont believe so too Yvette :-)
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here i think the evangelical church is way more dangerous to society
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the usa
[13:44] CB Axel: I agree
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): look how they are backing trump!!
[13:44] herman Bergson: I saw soem explanation.....
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: why gemma ?  cb? what do they do?
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): unbelievable
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: ah ok
[13:44] herman Bergson: 81% of the WHITE evangelicals voted for Trump
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they vote!!!!!!!!!!
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): always
[13:45] CB Axel: They are anti-everything. Anti-women. Anti-gays.
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and many are filthy rich
[13:45] herman Bergson: 78% of the Black evangelicals did not vote for Trump
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): anto science
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: no the question to stop is  - is what are they offering what is not offered outside of it
[13:45] CB Axel: The only thing they are for are guns.
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just like trump
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they are different
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and he like guns too
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a guns religion
[13:45] CB Axel: That's a good point, Ciska.
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:46] CB Axel: What are people getting from their religions that the government can give them?
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope in after life
[13:46] CB Axel: Unfortunately, I think what they are getting is stability.
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope in ral life
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): real life
[13:46] CB Axel: They get the world they way they want it.
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they flee from reality
[13:46] herman Bergson: you mean 'can not give' CB?
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): belief in that
[13:47] CB Axel: No. What can the government give them that they now get from the church?
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they don't want much government
[13:47] herman Bergson: Food
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: one answer might be some sort of validation and  "control of others" and if not that then "to be right"
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nono
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): government should be local!!!
[13:48] CB Axel: The government can't promise them that the world isn't going to change.
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: yes gemma thats one I agree
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): only armies by the feds
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): otherwise build your own roads
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: true cb - it can't but it does
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): national parks have to go
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): social security should go
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): health ins should be private
[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes God will take care of you...
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): easy said...
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no taxes
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is what they want
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed just look what the slogan of USA is
[13:49] herman Bergson: and isnt there the belief, that you are rich in the US because it is Gods will???
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): In God we trust
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that says something
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sort of
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): about how politics and religion are way to mixed into each other
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): really bad thing
[13:50] herman Bergson: And that people voted for Trump BECAUSE he is in the grace of the Lord???
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and our country should not even think of that
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): separation of church and state prime belief
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): of the founders
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): however
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to mix religion and politics is to base the laws and control of a nation on nonsense and hocus pokes
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nonsense
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): instead of facts
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is such a creep... the latest he used his so called charity foundation money to settle laew suite
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): law suits
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats why it can go really bad
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the latest
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): should never be mixed
[13:52] herman Bergson: I disagree Bejiita....
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but shouldn't politics always be fact based
[13:52] CB Axel: I agree, Bejiita, but just try and tell a religious person that you don't think laws should be based on their book of fairy tales. Boy, do they get angry! LOL
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ?
[13:52] herman Bergson: Laws should be based on a consensus between all partisipants, whatever they believe in
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that i can imagine
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that they will get
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): tricky stuff it is
[13:53] herman Bergson: otherwise you get a state that dictates what beliefs are acceptable and which not
[13:54] herman Bergson: That is the axe on the roots of democracy
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that can be an issue too i guess
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah well
[13:54] herman Bergson: Inndeed Gemma.....
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and  this discussion goes on
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for ever
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:54] herman Bergson: I guess we have saved the world once and again today :-))
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully a bit at least
[13:55] herman Bergson: so time to dismiss class :-)
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:55] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman. Good discussion!
[13:55] Yvette Kip (yvettekip): thank you Herman
[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation....
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu around next time all
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman thanx everyone
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sl15 bd starts sunday
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman



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