Tuesday, November 24, 2020

885: Liberalism Complete.....

  By the end of the nineteenth century, the picture of Liberalism was more or less complete,

  from John Locke it got the free individual and his right to private property, which was created by the labor of the individual.


Adam Smith put the individual in a well-organized production system based on the division of labor. The products were put in a system of demand and supply, which regulates itself due to market forces.


And all this would be automatically guided by what Smith called "an invisible hand" and it all world lead to economic growth driven by the self-interest of the individual and beneficial to the community.


Both, John Locke and Adam Smith were seriously opposed to any form of governmental control over the individual, let alone of tyranny.


The man who completed the picture was John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873). He drew the boundaries within which the free individual and the state should operate.


In "On Liberty" (1859) he added the social and political freedom of the individual. The titles of the chapters are telling enough:


Chapter 1: "Of the Liberty of Thought and Discussion", Chapter 2: "Of Individuality, as one of the elements of Well-being", Chapter 3: Of the Limits of Authority of Society over the Individual".


"On Liberty" mainly deals with two subjects. The first concerns the question of what happens when everyone maximizes their own freedom. 


Mill realizes that this is not unlimited, because my actions may have adverse consequences. The boundless pursuit of my interests can affect the freedom of others. 


To solve this, he makes a sharp distinction between the personal and the social sphere. As long as it is only about their own body and mind, people are sovereign. 


But in the social domain, they must spare the interests of their fellow citizens, in the sense that any act that harms another must be punished. 


This is done first and foremost through social control. Mill believes that most people are very sensitive to this. If that doesn't help, there is still a state that punishes anti-social behavior.


Among other things, Stuart Mill discusses the relation of private opinions and the pressure public opinion can exercise on the individual.


He argues that free discourse is a necessary condition for intellectual and social progress. We can never be sure, he contends, that a silenced opinion does not contain some element of the truth. 


He also argues that allowing people to air false opinions is productive for two reasons. First, individuals are more likely to abandon erroneous beliefs if they are engaged in an open exchange of ideas. 


Second, by forcing other individuals to re-examine and re-affirm their beliefs in the process of debate, these beliefs are kept from declining into mere dogma. 


It is not enough for Mill that one simply has an unexamined belief that happens to be true. One must understand why the belief in question is the true one. 


If you add up all elements, here we have the true liberal: a free individual in a well-organized job, making money and enjoying the freedom of opinion, not bothered by an oppressing government.


Thank you for your attention again....

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Gabriel van den Brink:"Ruw Ontwaken uit een Neoliberale Droom",, 2020

The Discussion


[13:14] herman Bergson: The ideal son-in-law :-))

[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): heheh well i guess

[13:16] herman Bergson: This political narrative developed only a 300 years ago within a hundred years

[13:16] CB Axel: Mill has a higher opinion of human beings than I do.

[13:16] herman Bergson: and it is dominating our political discourse since

[13:16] herman Bergson: Yes CB....I am not sure how much he overlooked greed, for instance

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): remember we just did people ae basically good

[13:17] herman Bergson: Indeed Gemma....and I guess Stuart Mill thought so too

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa must be so

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cb is having a hard time with it

[13:18] CB Axel nods

[13:18] herman Bergson: And I think, in general it is true

[13:18] CB Axel: :)

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and in that case it could have worked out fine everything,

[13:18] Somedirtycat Saule: Interesting thoughts. But what was the situation? I can hardly think any of them stated something in a status quo.

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the greed parameter was missing from the code sort of

[13:19] herman Bergson: What do you mean Some...

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u mean uninfluenced?

[13:20] CB Axel: Are you asking under what circumstances did Mill live?

[13:20] Somedirtycat Saule: what was their definition of tyranny for example.

[13:20] CB Axel: What formed his opinion?

[13:21] herman Bergson: It was at the verge of the Industrial Revolution, where the distance between poor and rich people would only increase....as it has continued to grow until now

[13:21] CB Axel: I would imagine his idea of tyranny was based on European rulers.

[13:22] herman Bergson: Tyranny was what the were used to....absolute kings, Cromwell, dictators, absence of individual rights and freedom

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have a hard time believing that it really got worse then.. what about slaves and fiefdom before that time

[13:22] herman Bergson: Mill was even for women's rights in 1859

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the kings was all and his  courts

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all the others were almost slaves

[13:23] herman Bergson: Slavery still existed in those days

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): skills gave many new hope for a job

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): making things

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): basically

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and a chance to live better

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes slavery did for a long time

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes, that created the industrial revolution and the emergence of mass production

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right so i was not all the beginning of the span between owners and workers

[13:25] CB Axel: Yeah. Instead of working land to benefit the king and nobility they started working in factories to benefit the factory owners.

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it existed long before that

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I'm Sorry!

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have to leave

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Gemma

[13:26] herman Bergson: Take care Gemma :-)

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu gemma

[13:26] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye Gemma

[13:27] herman Bergson: What we see around 1860 is a clear picture of the free individual....no government meddling please

[13:27] CB Axel: I'm guessing Mill was born into money, or at least whatever passed for middle class in those days.

[13:28] CB Axel: Yes. No meddling in the affairs of the factory owners and their ability to oppress their workers.

[13:28] herman Bergson: He was an uppperclass fellow....member of parlement, manager of a  trade company for 17 years

[13:28] CB Axel: So those were the people he wanted to have freedom.

[13:28] CB Axel: Not everyone.

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes, CB, especially in the UK were de differences huge

[13:29] herman Bergson: Which led to Marx eventually, of course

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed in the beginning the bosses really oppressed their workers, treating them worse then machines and taking all for himself, its gotten a little better now but problem still exist

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there were no workers right organizations and similar back at the time

[13:30] CB Axel: It wasn't until Dickens pointed out the terrible lives the poor and working class led that the middle class took notice.

[13:30] herman Bergson: We all can watch the movie "Scrooge" around Xmas :-))

[13:30] CB Axel: :)

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats really a classic on how you both not should be and should be

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and which character also laid the base for Disneys Scrooge McDuck

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): which is just the same

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:31] herman Bergson: You seem to say something Some, but it doesn't come through it seems

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe it's lag

[13:33] herman Bergson: Well...guess we now have a clear picture of the early days of liberalism....

[13:33] CB Axel: Yeah, Saule keeps typing away but doesn't say anything. :)

[13:33] herman Bergson: the next step will be to see how it went wrong

[13:34] Somedirtycat Saule: I think the invisible hand they talk about is to be seen in positive light. All good peoples work for their wealth that really trickle down.rulers and tyrants are that times buraucracy. Let water flow downwards uninterrupted.

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes CB, that is what I see too

[13:34] CB Axel: I can already see how it went wrong.

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:34] CB Axel: Trickle down theory has never worked and probably never will.

[13:34] CB Axel: It's a lie.

[13:35] Somedirtycat Saule: In that time it probably worked,

[13:35] herman Bergson: I guess the invisible hand Mill was thinking of, must have been  a christian idea of a caring god in the background

[13:35] CB Axel: No. It didn't.

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): untill they started as in the classic say biting the hand feeding them

[13:36] CB Axel: Or just a idealistic view of human nature.

[13:36] herman Bergson: No, that trickle down philosophy is a misconception

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its an idealized vision

[13:36] CB Axel: He seemed to think that the wealthy cared at all about the poor.

[13:37] herman Bergson: the increasing profits of the companies weren't used to trickle down to the workers....they used it to buy their own stocks

[13:37] CB Axel: Poor people were, and are, just another piece of machinery in their factories.

[13:37] CB Axel: Those people were easy to replace.

[13:37] herman Bergson: and thus made the wealthy people wealthier

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true cb

[13:38] CB Axel: If they were injured or killed, it didn't matter. Just pull another one up out of the street.

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well the bosses carried more about their (nice and expensive) machines then their workers

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the workers were just like hamsters running in a wheel to operate them and not worth a dime to them

[13:38] Somedirtycat Saule: OK CB. Times was harder then. Compared to now 'trickle down' as been given low wage was better than serfhood

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in short, just like slavery

[13:38] herman Bergson: That is not entirely true.....

[13:38] CB Axel: It was only after a good old fashioned plague killed off many of the poor that there became a shortage of them.

[13:39] CB Axel: Then the workers became more valuable and unions were able to form.

[13:40] CB Axel: Or a war. Wars were good at culling the herd, too.

[13:40] herman Bergson: Companies like Philips and Bata (shoe industry) cared for their workers in the early 1900s...they built houses, set up schools and education

[13:40] CB Axel: OK. That's one.

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa thats nice

[13:40] herman Bergson: They felt that they also had a social responsibility

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Vlisco did that too, they cared a lot about the workers

[13:41] CB Axel: Many built homes that the workers had to live in and shops where they had to shop with the profits going back to the factory owner.

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well as i know Philips is a good company and they also make very good things

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have 3 brands that i go with that i really tryst, those are Philips Asus and Samsung

[13:42] herman Bergson: I only trust Durex, Bejiita :-))

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mostly though because never had bad experience or quality issues with their products

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol herman

[13:42] herman Bergson grins

[13:43] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol

[13:43] CB Axel: I'm having some minor issues with my ASUS laptop, but that's because I dropped it. lol

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahahh well then its not Asus that are the problem I think

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 

[13:43] herman Bergson: That might create issues indeed CB :-))

[13:44] CB Axel: It actually survived the fall pretty well, so kudos to ASUS. :)

[13:44] herman Bergson: Before we get more issues...let me thank you again for your participation :-)

[13:44] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:44] herman Bergson: Unless you have that final question or remark........

[13:44] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...*_*

[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Thank you Herman and class!

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all my main computers and the router are ASUS TV and Vacuum cleaner is Philips (the vacuum have lasted since i moved in + don't sound like a jet engine) and mobile is samsung

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:45] CB Axel: Thank you, too, class.

884: Birth of The State...

 The natural state of man is one of freedom, equality and governed by the law of reason. Unfortunately, there also exist bad guys, 


who violate this natural state, which leads to what I quoted in the previous lecture

Locke writes, "In essence, violent or aggressive behavior entails a state of war, that is, a situation that differs from the natural in every respect. 


It is precisely that kind of enmity that makes people give up their natural state to form a political community. ” - end quote -


But before Locke describes his ideas about how such a political community should be governed, he elaborates on what we now would call "the homo economicus"


It is interesting to see, that little has changed with respect to his ideas.


The starting point of Locke's arguments is of course Christian belief, common in those days.


He recalls that God gave the world to mankind with a command to work it out to meet all human needs. 


By performing work man adds something to that world and he also takes the step towards ownership and property.


Initially, this will be done on a modest scale. Man appropriates only a small part of the abundance that nature offers him. 


His ownership of property is limited to the amount of land he can cultivate and improve himself. The rest is for others.  


An important point, however, is that the yield of the land increases by working it. Locke believes that it is mainly human labor that increases the total value of the land.


This was a new approach in Locke's time. The default assumption was, that the value of something was determined by the market, by the relation between supply and demand.


Locke's idea will later develop into the labor theory of value: the view that all economic value is ultimately the fruit of human labor. 


Therefore, the art of government should not focus on the largest possible territory, a standard pursuit of rulers in Locke's day and before, but on increasing productivity.


In time, this development will lead to the use of money. Initially, people worked only to meet their needs in the short term,


but in order to maintain the value of their goods in the longer term, a fixed measure became inevitable. 


That is why at a certain point they started to use gold or silver as a means of payment. Although these metals are of little use for life as such, they can represent a value.


This explains not only the emergence of private property but also the gradual increase in inequalities. 


Where there is no use of money, the differences in ownership of property are not very great. But once money plays a major role, people strive to expand their possessions.


More than ever we still are convinced, that human labor is what creates wealth. Although this is true, these days the Labor Theory of Value is mainly associated with Marxist economics.


We can dig into this subject some other time, but it is interesting to see how modern economics has left Locke's ideas behind.


I am no expert on economics, but I get the impression that we are back to economic principles from the times before Locke.


The market and how the consumer behaves on the market is what creates economic value. It is a theory of value based on subjective preferences.

I may be mistaken, but I guess today economists assume that consumption creates value and economic growths. 


We may have lost the real meaning of labor as a way to give meaning to life and have made consumption the meaning of life....


Thank you for your attention again.....


MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Gabriel van den Brink:"Ruw Ontwaken uit een Neoliberale Droom",, 2020

Thursday, November 19, 2020

883: Adam Smith Explains Voting Behavior......

In 2016 63 million Americans voted for Donald Trump. In 2020 71 Americans voted for Donald Trump. How is that possible?


There certainly is truth to the theory that racism, xenophobia, and status preservation of white voters are fundamental driving forces,


But does it mean that more Americans have become racist and xenophobic and white supremacist, or is there a more rational explanation?


In an article in the Correspondent the journalist Nesrine Malik in fact explained, what Adam Smith in 1776 already understood American voting behavior.


It may be true that the Trump base harbors white supremacists and racists, but not 71 million people. What made people vote for Trump?


Reason one: Between January 2017 and July 2020, the Trump administration took over 400 executive actions on immigration. 


From a European perspective, it was hot news, but it is just one reason.



[Reason two]   For the rich and private enterprise classes, Trump made a material impact on their businesses and income. (...)


[Reason three]   Record stock prices and a bullish market, in general, didn’t just benefit corporates who were synthesizing their own share values. (...)

They also benefited high-earning investors. And a whopping 88% of those who have an income of $100,000 and above have some kind of investment in the markets. (...)


In short, high earners had the ability of liquidating and consolidating their gains across market investments, tax cuts and windfalls all at once.(...)

These are material gains for a cross-section of society that will vote to preserve and increase wealth. (...)

[Reason four]   According to the Tax Policy Center, those who are in the top 20% of the income bracket benefitted from a 3% gain in income under the Trump administration. The average high-income household enjoyed a windfall of about $10,000. (...)


[Reason five]    Even when entrepreneurs and small business owners expressed concerns about Trump and his administration, they begrudgingly admit that he has been good for business. (...)


As early as a year into the Trump administration, a survey revealed that 65% of business owners thought that the new tax regime was the “best thing the government did for their companies last year”. (...)


[Reason six]    Unemployment not only fell since Trump came to office. The least educated saw their employment prospects rise at a rate 


higher than those with a college qualification or higher. 2019 also saw the largest fall in poverty in a single year since 1966, with 4.2 million people lifted off food stamps. (...)


[Reason seven]   Nominal wages in 2018 and 2019 rose at the fastest rate since before the recession. This impacted US Americans at the lower end of the labour scale most of all, those with no high school diploma fared particularly well. - END QUOTE


In 1776 Adam Smith explained why the baker bakes his bread. Not to feed his fellowmen, but because of his self-interest. He wants to make money.


That this is also beneficial for his fellowmen is a pleasant incidental.


The media spent almost all their time reporting about the incompetence, immorality and illegalities of the incumbent.


But the average voter shrugs and we have heard it often enough: Yes, I know ...I don't agree with his behavior, but he is good for the economy.  He creates jobs"


Although Adam Smith also wrote a lot about ethics, the concept of self-interest  is the core of his economical thinking, which today could be translated into "MONEY BEFORE MORALS..."


That is why most of the 71 million people voted for Donald Trump. Adam Smith was right......


Thank you again for your attention...


Nesrine Malik, Not every Trump voter is racist or misled. There’s a rational Trump voter too (TheCorrespondent.com. Nov 11, 2020)

The Discussion

[13:14] herman Bergson: I know I left you speechless ˆ_ˆ

[13:14] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Adam did not know about the Hilary haters or even think of misogynists

[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ut yes he ws right

[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a human lufe has no value at all for him

[13:15] herman Bergson: It is money that counts...

[13:15] CB Axel: Two problems: 1) those business people all voted before. They voted both times for Trump. The rise in voters was due to more of Trumps base actually going to the polls.

[13:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so he murders thousands of people

[13:16] herman Bergson: Those hillary haters arent 71 million Americans Gemma

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess and indeed u need money for everything , but wel

[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no but she won the vote

[13:16] CB Axel: Many lower class Americans think that patriotism mean driving around with American and Confederate flags on their trucks.

[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:16] CB Axel: They don't actually go out and vote.

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but the percentage of people including men and women who did hate Hilary was a percentage of why she lost

[13:17] herman Bergson: What I was wondering was...if Trump had campaigned on these 7 reasons, he might have won...

[13:17] CB Axel: 2) many of the jobs that were created during Trumps administration are service sector jobs that pay minimum wage or less.

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if they had voted might have been just enough to get the electoral college

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): really

[13:18] CB Axel: Sure there are more jobs, but if you need to work 3 of them to make ends meet, they're meaningless.

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eee ok

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he gets too much credit for the economy yes it was already on its way when he was elected

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so it only gained Trumps rich boss friends again then

[13:18] herman Bergson: I have heard that too, CB....

[13:18] herman Bergson: fake jibs actually

[13:19] herman Bergson: jobs

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:19] CB Axel: Right, Gemma.

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and indeed i cant see Trump doing anything for the poor, because to him if ur not rich ur just trash

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but yes money was at the root of it

[13:19] herman Bergson: True GEmma

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so slavery jobs created then?

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): basically

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not really quite bej

[13:19] CB Axel: Part-time jobs that pay poorly and don't give any benefits like health care.

[13:20] Jenny Coffee Queen Core (jenny.kaos) is online.

[13:20] herman Bergson: But what is most interesting here is this concept of self-interest that Adam Smith pointed at....more than 300 years ago

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): snce we dont have state health care

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that sounds trump like indeed cb

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): gain only the wealthy

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I think he was looking backwards too this is not the first time or place

[13:21] herman Bergson: what do you mean Gemma?

[13:21] CB Axel: Adam Smith may have been baking bread to earn money, but he wasn't helping anyone else.

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): his works were not based on just the future

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but the past experience

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): somewhere

[13:21] herman Bergson: yes yes, but he gave this positive twist too it

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:22] herman Bergson: following self-interest is beneficial for the community....so it is NOT a bad thing

[13:22] CB Axel: If Adam Smith's baker was selling a dozen loaves of bread a day he would make the dough, bake the bread, and work the cash register on his own.

[13:23] herman Bergson: His next step was his belief in the workings of a free market

[13:23] CB Axel: Any money he made or saved in tax cuts would go into his pockets and not into hiring employees.

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:24] herman Bergson: That is what has happened these days CB

[13:24] theo Velde is online.

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right exactly

[13:24] CB Axel: If he sold 10 dozen loaves a day, he'd have to hire a baker and maybe someone to help in the shop.

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm :(

[13:24] herman Bergson: Buying their own stock

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yrp

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep even

[13:24] CB Axel: And how is he going to sell that much bread? By giving more money to 1% of the population?

[13:25] herman Bergson: But what is clear is, that Smith in fact shaped our present frame of mind regarding economics

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:25] CB Axel: I'd rather the 99% have more money to buy bread, not the 1%.

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for many yes

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:25] CB Axel: Give the 99% the tax cuts.

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): tasty stuff for EVERYONE!

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yay

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oops

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): forgot i had that on

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay

[13:26] herman Bergson: ˆ_ˆ

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): different colors ha

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (brushes 2 kilo confetti off)

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but what about his lying about almost everything?

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Adam smith?

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they don't care, as u said money is everything

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no Trump

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as long they get money they have no ethic thinking whatsoever

[13:27] herman Bergson: That is the point, Beertje....voters just shrug and say...ok..not good , but he improved my financial position, so.....

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no one of his basse believes or cares that he is lying

[13:28] CB Axel: But you're wrong that Trump got more voters because more business people voted for him.

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): base followers

[13:28] CB Axel: The already voted for him the first time.

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but if he lies about everything, when can one trust him?

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): his followers dont care!!!

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they really dont

[13:28] herman Bergson: I just quoted the journalist, Gemma ˆ_ˆ

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or some honestly believe his words

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): which is worse

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i bet they would vote for him even if they knw he would have started WW3 and we then all would  die in a rain of nukes

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): short term thinking

[13:29] CB Axel: His less educated voters don't think he's lying. The more educated ones voted for him because he cut their taxes.

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as long wallet gets bigger NOPW

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): NOW

[13:29] herman Bergson: I guess that must have been the case CB

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is going to hang around for the next decade

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): luckily mr T have not done anything close to starting wars

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i heard he will atack Iran the coming time...

[13:30] herman Bergson: But keep in mind....

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed he have threathed to do it

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he wanted to destroy one plant

[13:30] herman Bergson: our main subject here is Adam Smith....and the fact that his views still are rather up to date 2020

[13:30] Quistis Hoorenbeek (quistis.shippe) is offline.

[13:30] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep i belive that

[13:31] CB Axel: Beertje, he said he would, but all his advisors are telling him not to.

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess so indeed Herman

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): righ

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): will he listen?

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ad his generals

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks they might

[13:31] CB Axel: I agree, Herman. I just don't think that is what turned out more Trump voters this year.

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some of it is cb

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): amazing turnout on both sides

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): luckily the right side still won with good margin

[13:32] herman Bergson: yes....amazing....

[13:32] CB Axel: Right, but the Adam Smith's of the US already voted for him the first time. I don't think more of them turned out this year.

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because in total MANY more voted this time, because they wanted to get rid of Trump

[13:33] herman Bergson: that 5 million extra for Biden......

[13:33] CB Axel: In fact, some, like in The Lincoln Project, turned against him.

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): close to 6 than five

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): 5.6

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or 7

[13:33] herman Bergson: amazing

[13:33] CB Axel: Rich people vote every election. Poorer people don't.

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why is that CB?

[13:34] iמʞαʞů (inkaku.capalini) is offline.

[13:34] herman Bergson: At least it tells us that people are involved  and not uninterested

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well thinks it is more educated than poor

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so education is very important

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:35] iמʞαʞů (inkaku.capalini) is online.

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but then T would have won. now there were so many seeing a big problem with trump and that it was very important to kick him out or really bad things would happen

[13:35] CB Axel: Poor people have more obstacles to voting. They don't think their voices count. They just don't bother. Many reasons.

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:35] herman Bergson: That is what I say all the time, for years now.....only education can save this world

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that total number of voters shot up like never before

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and this biden could win

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause people cared

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Herman

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some places had concerted efforts for the past two years to educate those and they succeeded

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): like in Georgia

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:37] herman Bergson: Well...I assume that you are a little more educated now that 30 minutes before :-)

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): made them see the reasons to vote this time

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and Biden won in Georgia

[13:37] CB Axel: Stacy Abrams worked really hard in Georgia to get more people to vote, and it helped a lot. :)

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes I saw her on tv

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): strong woman

[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes...so I learned too....great person

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): andn it shows in somet statees where representatives won their seats and trump did not get that vote

[13:38] CB Axel: Wow! She's getting seen in the Netherlands? Cool!!

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Republicans did vote against trump

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): CNN

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont):

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa thats great

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): seenn all over the world

[13:38] herman Bergson: Oh yes...I have seen her too

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope they get back to world news soon sigh

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hee

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here

[13:38] CB Axel: You're right, Gemma. I was amazed at how the congressional races played out.

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is trump 24/7

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's stil all about Trump

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have to go to Reuters and NPR to get world news

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well the only world news today is about corona so

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): unless it is a real catastrophe

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): BBC also

[13:39] CB Axel: I go to NPR and Trevor Noah. :)

[13:40] herman Bergson smiles

[13:40] herman Bergson: I like Trevor :-)

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:40] CB Axel: Also Crooked Media.

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): dont know that

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will look it up

[13:40] CB Axel: Please do.

[13:40] CB Axel: I listen to 3 of their podcasts. :)

[13:41] herman Bergson: I often watch Ring of Fire....

[13:41] CB Axel: I'm not familiar with Ring of Fire.

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): www.crookedmedia.com

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): can you imagine after two weeks he still wont give in

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:42] herman Bergson: Is on Youtube...guy from California....left wing zealot :-)

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Gemma

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): will he ever Gemma?

[13:42] CB Axel: I'll look for him, Herman. Thanks.

[13:42] herman Bergson: He is funny in the sense that he is so angry about everything :-)

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): eventually

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he will have to

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): T is a cranky gigant baby wailing in his sandbox

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): imagine him  being evicted

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): throwing mud around

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he will leave through the back door:)

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he might

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): washing his orange off

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): never!!!!!!!!

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:43] CB Axel: I hope he walks out the back door of the White House and into a police car.

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (sees trumps in diapers being pulled by his feet out of white house by SS while wailng all he can)

[13:43] herman Bergson: lol

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no that will come later

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, that's were he belongs

[13:44] herman Bergson whispers: They'll be waiting for him, CB :_)

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I DONT WANNA GO I DONT WANNA WAAAAH WAHHH!

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what about Melania?

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the investigators will get him but it will be a long long while

[13:44] herman Bergson: Well...

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what will she do?

[13:44] CB Axel: He should have been in jail back in the '80's.

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): go with him

[13:44] herman Bergson: We are far enough off topic to end our discussion :-)

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tthat is true cb

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well

[13:44] herman Bergson: SO...thank you all again..

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well as i get ist he has bribed and bluffed his way through

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all time

[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Adam would be scared of him

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i did not hear about him before he candidated for president though

[13:45] CB Axel: Melania made her bed. Now she must lie in it. Alone.

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh wow he was wel well known

[13:45] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): way back

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ans i immediatley though, lick him up in a padded cell!

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lock

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥